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Proof that Bombs Can Stop Genocide
by Guest Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:22 am
Dr. Rafael Medoff is founding director of The David S. Wyman Institute for Holocaust Studies, and the author of The Jews Should Keep Quiet: President Franklin D. Roosevelt, Rabbi Stephen S. Wise, and the Holocaust, forthcoming from The Jewish Publication Society in 2019.
A new study has documented the Syrian government’s role in more than 300 chemical weapons attacks against its own citizens. Significantly, the new report found no evidence of any such gassing attacks in the ten months since last year’s U.S. missile strike on Syrian chemical warfare sites.
It’s time for some soul-searching by those who denounced that U.S. military action—including one of the current candidates for the Democratic presidential nomination and officials of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum. It’s time to acknowledge that American bombs can stop genocide.
The landmark Syria report, released February 17 by the Berlin-based Global Public Policy Institute, found there were at least 336 chemical weapons attacks in Syria between 2012 and 2018, and 98% of them were perpetrated by the Assad regime.
(Link to the full text of the report: https://www.gppi.net/2019/02/17/the-logic-of-chemical-weapons-use-in-syria)
According to the report’s detailed timeline of the Syrian chemical atrocities, there have been no such attacks since April 7, 2018. That date is significant—it was one week before the United States carried out major missile strikes on multiple Syrian chemical weapons facilities.
The strikes were praised by a wide range of foreign leaders and by prominent voices across the American political spectrum. But there were some notable, and disturbing, exceptions.
Rep. Tulsi Gabbard (D-Hawaii) said that since “Syria has not declared war against the U.S.,” missile strikes on the chemical sites were “illegal” and unconstitutional. Gabbard earlier said she was “skeptical” as to whether the Assad regime really was gassing civilians. She is now a candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination.
Rebecca Erbelding, a staff historian at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, tweeted in response to the missile strikes: “There are viable ways that the US can aid those being persecuted under an evil regime. Bombing isn't one of them.”
A few months earlier, the Museum had stirred controversy by issuing a report arguing it would have been “very difficult” for the US “to take effective action to prevent atrocities in Syria.” That sounded like a justification of President Barack Obama’s embarrassing failure to act on his famous “red line” ultimatum. After an outcry, the Museum backed down and deleted the report’s most objectionable language.
Amnesty International responded to the U.S. strike on the chemical weapons targets with a press release characterizing Assad’s atrocities as “alleged violations of the Syrian government.” Meanwhile, Code Pink and other antiwar groups staged “Hands off Syria” rallies around the country.
Seventy-five years ago this spring, the Roosevelt administration learned the full details of the mass gassing of Jews in the Auschwitz death camp. Thanks to two escapees from the camp, US officials even received detailed maps pinpointing the location of the gas chambers and crematoria.
Jewish groups in the United States and elsewhere pleaded with US officials to order air strikes on the mass-murder machinery, or on the railway lines and bridges over which hundreds of thousands of Jews were being deported to Auschwitz.
Since US planes were already bombing German oil fields within five miles of the Auschwitz gas chambers as well as railway lines and bridges throughout that region of Europe, it would not have diverted from the war effort to drop a few bombs on the transportation lines to Auschwitz or the mass-murder machinery. But the Roosevelt administration refused.
Those who have not learned from the moral failures of the Holocaust era should at least pay attention to more recent evidence of how U.S. military force can be used to interrupt genocide or other atrocities.
Recall that President Bill Clinton used air strikes to put an end to atrocities in the Balkans. President Obama used military force to preempt the plan by Libyan dictator Muammar Qadaffi to carry out what the president called “a massacre that would have reverberated across the region and stained the conscience of the world.” Obama also took military action to end the ISIS siege of thousands of Yazidi civilians in Iraq.
The new report on Syria urges the US to further damage Assad’s chemical weapons potential by “directly targeting the military formations that would be responsible for any future attacks.” It argues that “the Syrian helicopter fleet, which has played a critical role in the delivery of conventional and chemical barrel bombs, should be a primary target.”
If President Roosevelt had heeded the pleas that were made in 1944 to use force against the machinery of genocide, many lives could have been saved. Let’s hope the current president will learn from FDR’s mistake.
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/171263
A new study has documented the Syrian government’s role in more than 300 chemical weapons attacks against its own citizens. Significantly, the new report found no evidence of any such gassing attacks in the ten months since last year’s U.S. missile strike on Syrian chemical warfare sites.
It’s time for some soul-searching by those who denounced that U.S. military action—including one of the current candidates for the Democratic presidential nomination and officials of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum. It’s time to acknowledge that American bombs can stop genocide.
The landmark Syria report, released February 17 by the Berlin-based Global Public Policy Institute, found there were at least 336 chemical weapons attacks in Syria between 2012 and 2018, and 98% of them were perpetrated by the Assad regime.
(Link to the full text of the report: https://www.gppi.net/2019/02/17/the-logic-of-chemical-weapons-use-in-syria)
According to the report’s detailed timeline of the Syrian chemical atrocities, there have been no such attacks since April 7, 2018. That date is significant—it was one week before the United States carried out major missile strikes on multiple Syrian chemical weapons facilities.
The strikes were praised by a wide range of foreign leaders and by prominent voices across the American political spectrum. But there were some notable, and disturbing, exceptions.
Rep. Tulsi Gabbard (D-Hawaii) said that since “Syria has not declared war against the U.S.,” missile strikes on the chemical sites were “illegal” and unconstitutional. Gabbard earlier said she was “skeptical” as to whether the Assad regime really was gassing civilians. She is now a candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination.
Rebecca Erbelding, a staff historian at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, tweeted in response to the missile strikes: “There are viable ways that the US can aid those being persecuted under an evil regime. Bombing isn't one of them.”
A few months earlier, the Museum had stirred controversy by issuing a report arguing it would have been “very difficult” for the US “to take effective action to prevent atrocities in Syria.” That sounded like a justification of President Barack Obama’s embarrassing failure to act on his famous “red line” ultimatum. After an outcry, the Museum backed down and deleted the report’s most objectionable language.
Amnesty International responded to the U.S. strike on the chemical weapons targets with a press release characterizing Assad’s atrocities as “alleged violations of the Syrian government.” Meanwhile, Code Pink and other antiwar groups staged “Hands off Syria” rallies around the country.
Seventy-five years ago this spring, the Roosevelt administration learned the full details of the mass gassing of Jews in the Auschwitz death camp. Thanks to two escapees from the camp, US officials even received detailed maps pinpointing the location of the gas chambers and crematoria.
Jewish groups in the United States and elsewhere pleaded with US officials to order air strikes on the mass-murder machinery, or on the railway lines and bridges over which hundreds of thousands of Jews were being deported to Auschwitz.
Since US planes were already bombing German oil fields within five miles of the Auschwitz gas chambers as well as railway lines and bridges throughout that region of Europe, it would not have diverted from the war effort to drop a few bombs on the transportation lines to Auschwitz or the mass-murder machinery. But the Roosevelt administration refused.
Those who have not learned from the moral failures of the Holocaust era should at least pay attention to more recent evidence of how U.S. military force can be used to interrupt genocide or other atrocities.
Recall that President Bill Clinton used air strikes to put an end to atrocities in the Balkans. President Obama used military force to preempt the plan by Libyan dictator Muammar Qadaffi to carry out what the president called “a massacre that would have reverberated across the region and stained the conscience of the world.” Obama also took military action to end the ISIS siege of thousands of Yazidi civilians in Iraq.
The new report on Syria urges the US to further damage Assad’s chemical weapons potential by “directly targeting the military formations that would be responsible for any future attacks.” It argues that “the Syrian helicopter fleet, which has played a critical role in the delivery of conventional and chemical barrel bombs, should be a primary target.”
If President Roosevelt had heeded the pleas that were made in 1944 to use force against the machinery of genocide, many lives could have been saved. Let’s hope the current president will learn from FDR’s mistake.
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/171263
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Re: Proof that Bombs Can Stop Genocide
by Maddog Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:09 pm
The killing in Syria continues. Perhaps the use of one weapon has stopped. The Syrians and Russians are still killing plenty of people with other weapons.
The reason for not bombing concentration camps has been well explained. The quickest way to free those people was to get ground troops there. That meant focusing every plane and it's bombs on military targets. Bombing rail lines wouldn't have saved anyone and bombing portions of the camps would have killed prisoners.
There is no doubt that tactical strikes can send a message that some governments react to, in a desirable manner . Or that they can help an ally that lacks air power.
It's also true that they can leave a country in shambles with a giant power vacuum filled by not so very nice people.
The reason for not bombing concentration camps has been well explained. The quickest way to free those people was to get ground troops there. That meant focusing every plane and it's bombs on military targets. Bombing rail lines wouldn't have saved anyone and bombing portions of the camps would have killed prisoners.
There is no doubt that tactical strikes can send a message that some governments react to, in a desirable manner . Or that they can help an ally that lacks air power.
It's also true that they can leave a country in shambles with a giant power vacuum filled by not so very nice people.
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Re: Proof that Bombs Can Stop Genocide
by Guest Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:23 pm
Maddog wrote:The killing in Syria continues. Perhaps the use of one weapon has stopped. The Syrians and Russians are still killing plenty of people with other weapons.
The reason for not bombing concentration camps has been well explained. The quickest way to free those people was to get ground troops there. That meant focusing every plane and it's bombs on military targets. Bombing rail lines wouldn't have saved anyone and bombing portions of the camps would have killed prisoners.
There is no doubt that tactical strikes can send a message that some governments react to, in a desirable manner . Or that they can help an ally that lacks air power.
It's also true that they can leave a country in shambles with a giant power vacuum filled by not so very nice people.
Actually the view to take out the killing facilities in the camps during the holocaust was something that was actually by called for Jews that had escaped the system. The only reason it would have been difficult, is that tactical bombing was so inaccurate. With accurate boming, it would have been pratical to take out the facilities. As this would have slowed down the killing methods
What is evidence though today, is that with tactial bombing. Weapons of mass destruction can be taken out. To the extent they have not been used since
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Re: Proof that Bombs Can Stop Genocide
by Maddog Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:34 pm
Thor wrote:Maddog wrote:The killing in Syria continues. Perhaps the use of one weapon has stopped. The Syrians and Russians are still killing plenty of people with other weapons.
The reason for not bombing concentration camps has been well explained. The quickest way to free those people was to get ground troops there. That meant focusing every plane and it's bombs on military targets. Bombing rail lines wouldn't have saved anyone and bombing portions of the camps would have killed prisoners.
There is no doubt that tactical strikes can send a message that some governments react to, in a desirable manner . Or that they can help an ally that lacks air power.
It's also true that they can leave a country in shambles with a giant power vacuum filled by not so very nice people.
Actually the view to take out the killing facilities in the camps during the holocaust was something that was actually by called for Jews that had escaped the system. The only reason it would have been difficult, is that tactical bombing was so inaccurate. With accurate boming, it would have been pratical to take out the facilities. As this would have slowed down the killing methods
What is evidence though today, is that with tactial bombing. Weapons of mass destruction can be taken out. To the extent they have not been used since
The Jews did believe it would help. The Generals didn't. The Generals laid out very good reasons why they didn't try to bomb the camps.
And I agree, that you can make people stop using certain weapons with tactical strikes. They just switch to another in the case of Assad. In the case Khadaffi, they are defeated and something equally as bad takes over and the killing continues.
If bombs brought peace, the middle East would be the most peaceful place on the planet.
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Re: Proof that Bombs Can Stop Genocide
by Guest Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:39 pm
Maddog wrote:Thor wrote:
Actually the view to take out the killing facilities in the camps during the holocaust was something that was actually by called for Jews that had escaped the system. The only reason it would have been difficult, is that tactical bombing was so inaccurate. With accurate boming, it would have been pratical to take out the facilities. As this would have slowed down the killing methods
What is evidence though today, is that with tactial bombing. Weapons of mass destruction can be taken out. To the extent they have not been used since
The Jews did believe it would help. The Generals didn't. The Generals laid out very good reasons why they didn't try to bomb the camps.
And I agree, that you can make people stop using certain weapons with tactical strikes. They just switch to another in the case of Assad. In the case Khadaffi, they are defeated and something equally as bad takes over and the killing continues.
If bombs brought peace, the middle East would be the most peaceful place on the planet.
Bombs have brought about peace once before
2 bombs in fact, helped bring about a end to the war with Japan, which no doubt saved more lives by doing so.
The esitmation of American casulaties for the invasion of the Japense homeland was placed at a million
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Re: Proof that Bombs Can Stop Genocide
by Original Quill Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:07 pm
Didge wrote:2 bombs in fact, helped bring about a end to the war with Japan, which no doubt saved more lives by doing so.
While the bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki got all the attention, the carpet bombing of Tokyo with incendiary bombs on March 9-10, 1945, did more to end the war. Most Japanese cities at the time were wood-frame buildings, and they went up like matchsticks. Witness Tokyo, the next morning:
These casualty and damage figures could be low; Mark Selden wrote in Japan Focus:
The figure of roughly 100,000 deaths, provided by Japanese and American authorities, both of whom may have had reasons of their own for minimizing the death toll, seems to be arguably low in light of population density, wind conditions, and survivors' accounts. With an average of 103,000 inhabitants per square mile (396 people per hectare) and peak levels as high as 135,000 per square mile (521 people per hectare), the highest density of any industrial city in the world, and with firefighting measures ludicrously inadequate to the task, 15.8 square miles (41 km2) of Tokyo were destroyed on a night when fierce winds whipped the flames and walls of fire blocked tens of thousands fleeing for their lives. An estimated 1.5 million people lived in the burned out areas.
Emperor Hirohito's tour of the destroyed areas of Tokyo in March 1945 was the beginning of his personal involvement in the peace process, culminating in Japan's surrender six months later.
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Re: Proof that Bombs Can Stop Genocide
by The Devil, You Know Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:15 pm
it would not have been possible as precision bombing as we know it was in its infancy at the time and if a bomb hit within 5 miles it was a miracle. that is why there were thousand bomber raids on area targets to ensure some of the bombs hit the targets.Thor wrote:Maddog wrote:The killing in Syria continues. Perhaps the use of one weapon has stopped. The Syrians and Russians are still killing plenty of people with other weapons.
The reason for not bombing concentration camps has been well explained. The quickest way to free those people was to get ground troops there. That meant focusing every plane and it's bombs on military targets. Bombing rail lines wouldn't have saved anyone and bombing portions of the camps would have killed prisoners.
There is no doubt that tactical strikes can send a message that some governments react to, in a desirable manner . Or that they can help an ally that lacks air power.
It's also true that they can leave a country in shambles with a giant power vacuum filled by not so very nice people.
Actually the view to take out the killing facilities in the camps during the holocaust was something that was actually by called for Jews that had escaped the system. The only reason it would have been difficult, is that tactical bombing was so inaccurate. With accurate boming, it would have been pratical to take out the facilities. As this would have slowed down the killing methods
What is evidence though today, is that with tactial bombing. Weapons of mass destruction can be taken out. To the extent they have not been used since
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Re: Proof that Bombs Can Stop Genocide
by The Devil, You Know Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:17 pm
japan surrendered within a week of the second nuke.
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Re: Proof that Bombs Can Stop Genocide
by Maddog Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:03 pm
Thor wrote:Maddog wrote:
The Jews did believe it would help. The Generals didn't. The Generals laid out very good reasons why they didn't try to bomb the camps.
And I agree, that you can make people stop using certain weapons with tactical strikes. They just switch to another in the case of Assad. In the case Khadaffi, they are defeated and something equally as bad takes over and the killing continues.
If bombs brought peace, the middle East would be the most peaceful place on the planet.
Bombs have brought about peace once before
2 bombs in fact, helped bring about a end to the war with Japan, which no doubt saved more lives by doing so.
The esitmation of American casulaties for the invasion of the Japense homeland was placed at a million
Yes, the nukes worked.
I don't know if we want to open that Pandora's box again.
They are designed to kill massive numbers of civilians. That's not how we fight anymore, for the most part.
I think many of the foes of the West would actually like us to do that. The bigger the response, the better.
I think they have to remain in the silos unless you are trying to survive an attack from another nuclear nation.
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