The real emergency facing the US.

by Maddog Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:18 am

WASHINGTON (AP) - The national debt has passed a new milestone, topping $22 trillion for the first time.

The Treasury Department's daily statement showed Tuesday that total outstanding public debt stands at $22.01 trillion. It stood at $19.95 trillion when Failing Cheeto-Faced Ferret-Wearing Shit Gibbon took office on Jan. 20, 2017.

The national debt is the total of the annual budget deficits. The Congressional Budget Office projects that this year's deficit will be $897 billion - a 15.1 percent increase over last year's imbalance of $779 billion. In the coming years, the CBO forecasts that the deficit will keep rising, top $1 trillion annually beginning in 2022 and never drop below $1 trillion through 2029. Much of the increase will come from mounting costs to fund Social Security and Medicare as the vast generation of baby boomers continue to retire.

http://www.fox4news.com/business/national-debt-hits-new-milestone-topping-22-trillion?fbclid=IwAR1bOUUFwuxlc8Mrf7C3sIGFCfe4OTk65_fVlggzc2LwJFSQ1IvyZa27rZ0

The real emergency that no one wants to talk about. Debt makes it harder to fight the next recession, climate change or the next war. When the wheels start to fall off, and they always do at some level of debt, the social and military programs won't get funded.

And unfortunately, no one running for president from either major party is remotely interested in making the tough decisions that must be made. In all honesty, it's probably because they know that telling the truth on this topic will guarantee a loss. The secret is to promise free stuff today and kick the payments down the road.

by Original Quill Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:40 am

Social security is a separate account, and is not counted in debt unless you've got Heritage Foundation figures again.

The whopping deficit this year is owing to the corporate tax cut, plus the losses sustained by Trump's new taxes, which are tariffs.

The accumulated deficit is primarily owing to Republican wars...the Iraq war in particular. It costs money to go about killing babies.

by Maddog Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:43 am

Original Quill wrote:Social security is a separate account, and is not counted in debt unless you've got Heritage Foundation figures again.

The whopping deficit this year is owing to the corporate tax cut, plus the losses sustained by Trump's new taxes, which are tariffs.

The accumulated deficit is primarily owing to Republican wars...the Iraq war in particular. It costs money to go about killing babies.

It's all one government and we are 22 trillion in debt.

And virtually no one of either major party has a plan to start paying that down.

by 'Wolfie Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:48 am

The real emergency facing the US. 1399249160

The o/p gets it wrong from the beginning, as it fucks it up trying to define a country's national debt...

The national debt isn't simply an accumulation of annual "budget deficits" -- but in reality is the aggregate long-term borrowings for federal, state and local governments and their various entities and utilities..

It is also wrong for the economically-illiterate fuckwit in the O/P to blame social security and education spending for the USA's skyrocketing deficits (for the past 30 or 40 years..), when military spending is the #1 reason for the Amerikan governments' spending.

"Follow the money trail !"

by Maddog Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:31 am

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

The o/p gets it wrong from the beginning, as it fucks it up trying to define a country's national debt...

The national debt isn't simply an accumulation of annual "budget deficits" -- but in reality is the aggregate long-term borrowings for federal, state and local governments and their various entities and utilities..

It is also wrong for the economically-illiterate fuckwit in the O/P to blame social security and education spending for the USA's skyrocketing deficits (for the past 30 or 40 years..), when military spending is the #1 reason for the Amerikan governments' spending.

"Follow the money trail !"

This is federal debt.

State and local debt is another huge problem.

Unless we have a massive war, we won't see massive increases in military spending. We should be cutting it. Socoial security is completely different. Unless we kill a shit load of old people, they are going to be there and will need to be supported.

by Maddog Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:33 am

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

The o/p gets it wrong from the beginning, as it fucks it up trying to define a country's national debt...

The national debt isn't simply an accumulation of annual "budget deficits" -- but in reality is the aggregate long-term borrowings for federal, state and local governments and their various entities and utilities..

It is also wrong for the economically-illiterate fuckwit in the O/P to blame social security and education spending for the USA's skyrocketing deficits (for the past 30 or 40 years..), when military spending is the #1 reason for the Amerikan governments' spending.

"Follow the money trail !"

Here you go.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

You're bright individual, but extremely arrogant.

You might learn something from other posters if you calmed down a little.

by Ben Reilly Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:57 am

Maddog wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

The o/p gets it wrong from the beginning, as it fucks it up trying to define a country's national debt...

The national debt isn't simply an accumulation of annual "budget deficits" -- but in reality is the aggregate long-term borrowings for federal, state and local governments and their various entities and utilities..

It is also wrong for the economically-illiterate fuckwit in the O/P to blame social security and education spending for the USA's skyrocketing deficits (for the past 30 or 40 years..), when military spending is the #1 reason for the Amerikan governments' spending.

"Follow the money trail !"

This is federal debt.

State and local debt is another huge problem.

Unless we have a massive war, we won't see massive increases in military spending. We should be cutting it. Socoial security is completely different. Unless we kill a shit load of old people, they are going to be there and will need to be supported.

I was under the impression that Trump promised to increase military spending and has considered adding to America's nuclear arsenal. Am I wrong?

I agree that most of the spending cuts should come out of the military budget, since we spend so much more than the rest of the world on it. It's ridiculous to keep buying new billion-dollar fighter jets when our top threat is terrorism.

by 'Wolfie Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:46 am

Maddog wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

The o/p gets it wrong from the beginning, as it fucks it up trying to define a country's national debt...

The national debt isn't simply an accumulation of annual "budget deficits" -- but in reality is the aggregate long-term borrowings for federal, state and local governments and their various entities and utilities..

It is also wrong for the economically-illiterate fuckwit in the O/P to blame social security and education spending for the USA's skyrocketing deficits (for the past 30 or 40 years..), when military spending is the #1 reason for the Amerikan governments' spending.

"Follow the money trail !"

This is federal debt.

State and local debt is another huge problem.

Unless we have a massive war, we won't see massive increases in military spending. We should be cutting it. Socoial security is completely different. Unless we kill a shit load of old people, they are going to be there and will need to be supported.

When they compare country-with-country, and when looking at a country's long term economic behaviour and outcomes, the figure they use is that country's National Debt (without breaking it down into states and territories), and then expressed in terms of 'GDP' and 'GNP', and each country's capacity to repay those debts..

Looking at the 'federal' debt alone, and then leading with the false claims that welfare and education top the list (when military spending alone is more than double that spent on either education or healthcare..) -- that makes for good posturing, and using some areas as political 'footballs', but it still remains inherently dishonest for those twonks making their doomsday claims to zero in on welfare and social security, while totally ignoring the $$trillions$$ that the USA has borrowed to finance excursions onto foreign soils over the past 30-odd years.

Then, there's the fact that unemployment payments, veterans benefits and aged pensions in the USA are directly funded through sections in your taxation system -- and not through those borrowings that keep on increasing the overall deficit.

Cutting benefits, and reducing spending on education and healthcare, might allow for big tax cuts for the rich end -- but it will have fuckall effect on the govt's overall borrowings and long term debts.

The easiest way to repay those debts is to increase the governments' total taxation revenue. Giving big tax breaks to their rich buddies is the very opposite of what America needs -- more spending will mean an expanding economy, with more direct and indirect taxation -- and the best way to increase more spending at the national level is through putting more money in the pockets of the bottom half of the population. Where a lot more of that spending will be on essential items and day-to-day consumer goods, with more being spent locally.

by Maddog Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:32 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

This is federal debt.

State and local debt is another huge problem.

Unless we have a massive war, we won't see massive increases in military spending. We should be cutting it. Socoial security is completely different. Unless we kill a shit load of old people, they are going to be there and will need to be supported.

When they compare country-with-country, and when looking at a country's long term economic behaviour and outcomes, the figure they use is that country's National Debt (without breaking it down into states and territories), and then expressed in terms of 'GDP' and 'GNP', and each country's capacity to repay those debts..

Looking at the 'federal' debt alone, and then leading with the false claims that welfare and education top the list (when military spending alone is more than double that spent on either education or healthcare..) -- that makes for good posturing, and using some areas as political 'footballs', but it still remains inherently dishonest for those twonks making their doomsday claims to zero in on welfare and social security, while totally ignoring the $$trillions$$ that the USA has borrowed to finance excursions onto foreign soils over the past 30-odd years.

Then, there's the fact that unemployment payments, veterans benefits and aged pensions in the USA are directly funded through sections in your taxation system -- and not through those borrowings that keep on increasing the overall deficit.

Cutting benefits, and reducing spending on education and healthcare, might allow for big tax cuts for the rich end -- but it will have fuckall effect on the govt's overall borrowings and long term debts.

The easiest way to repay those debts is to increase the governments' total taxation revenue. Giving big tax breaks to their rich buddies is the very opposite of what America needs -- more spending will mean an expanding economy, with more direct and indirect taxation -- and the best way to increase more spending at the national level is through putting more money in the pockets of the bottom half of the population. Where a lot more of that spending will be on essential items and day-to-day consumer goods, with more being spent locally.

Military spending is too high, but you would be wrong if you think it's the most expensive item in the budget.

by Maddog Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:35 pm

>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:
Maddog wrote:

This is federal debt.

State and local debt is another huge problem.

Unless we have a massive war, we won't see massive increases in military spending. We should be cutting it. Socoial security is completely different. Unless we kill a shit load of old people, they are going to be there and will need to be supported.

I was under the impression that Trump promised to increase military spending and has considered adding to America's nuclear arsenal. Am I wrong?

I agree that most of the spending cuts should come out of the military budget, since we spend so much more than the rest of the world on it. It's ridiculous to keep buying new billion-dollar fighter jets when our top threat is terrorism.

Trump did increase military spending.

Our debt won't be solved by people that think either the military or social programs are off the table.

Both will have to be cut to make a real difference, but anyone saying that can't win.

by Maddog Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:37 pm

Let me put it this way. The US is to the point now that it would have a deficit of it eliminated the department of defense.

We are borrowing a trillion a year.

by nicko Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:43 pm

Who do they borrow from ?

by 'Wolfie Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:08 pm

nicko wrote:Who do they borrow from ?

Anybody who has the spare credit...

China is one of the world's biggest lenders (creditors..).

A nation can also raise funds by issuing government bonds ("selling" the bonds to either private investors, to financial institutions (e.g. banks, mutual funds, and pension/superannuation funds, ), and to other countries (which is how China ended up with one of the biggest shares of US debt)).

by Original Quill Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:27 pm

Maddog wrote:Military spending is too high, but you would be wrong if you think it's the most expensive item in the budget.

No, wolf has got it right. Military spending tops the list in the US.

by Original Quill Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:34 pm

Maddog wrote:Let me put it this way. The US is to the point now that it would have a deficit of it eliminated the department of defense.

We are borrowing a trillion a year.

But that is not an item-by-item comparison. That's military spending versus everything else. What has caught up with us is interest. We have borrowed so much that interest has become a major factor.

Military spending and hugely expensive wars is still the problem.

by Maddog Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:58 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:Let me put it this way. The US is to the point now that it would have a deficit of it eliminated the department of defense.

We are borrowing a trillion a year.

But that is not an item-by-item comparison. That's military spending versus everything else. What has caught up with us is interest. We have borrowed so much that interest has become a major factor.

Military spending and hugely expensive wars is still the problem.

http://www.crfb.org/blogs/treasury-2018-deficit-was-779-billion

Social security is more than the military.

The deficit is more than the military.

I'm right again.

by Maddog Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:00 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:Military spending is too high, but you would be wrong if you think it's the most expensive item in the budget.

No, wolf has got it right. Military spending tops the list in the US.

http://www.crfb.org/blogs/treasury-2018-deficit-was-779-billion

No, he and you are both wrong again, because you're both too lazy to do a little research.

I'm not.

by 'Wolfie Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:18 am

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

No, wolf has got it right. Military spending tops the list in the US.

http://www.crfb.org/blogs/treasury-2018-deficit-was-779-billion

No, he and you are both wrong again, because you're both too lazy to do a little research.

I'm not.

Pity you don't research further...

Like the fact that the US government borrowed $$1.5 trillion$$ outside of the regular annual military budgets, to help finance its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, over the last 20 years..

And, then there were the $billions$ of dollars that bankers pocketed after the GFC disaster -- money intended to rescue US banks, that went into directors pockets instead

by 'Wolfie Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:26 am

IF you were to set a "Libertarian" regime in charge of "fixing" Ahmerika's debt, they would strip all of the government spending out, until you were only left with 3 departments :

* A police force to keep the increasingly-despondent population under control;

* A military to protect the rich mens' assets;

* And a taxation department to fund them..

by Original Quill Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:17 am

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

No, wolf has got it right. Military spending tops the list in the US.

http://www.crfb.org/blogs/treasury-2018-deficit-was-779-billion

No, he and you are both wrong again, because you're both too lazy to do a little research.

I'm not.

It's well published. The highest line in the US budget is the military. You're so boring.

by Maddog Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:10 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

IF you were to set a "Libertarian" regime in charge of "fixing" Ahmerika's debt, they would strip all of the government spending out, until you were only left with 3 departments :

* A police force to keep the increasingly-despondent population under control;

* A military to protect the rich mens' assets;

* And a taxation department to fund them..

You forgot courts.

Google minarchy.

by Maddog Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:15 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

http://www.crfb.org/blogs/treasury-2018-deficit-was-779-billion

No, he and you are both wrong again, because you're both too lazy to do a little research.

I'm not.

Pity you don't research further...

Like the fact that the US government borrowed $$1.5 trillion$$ outside of the regular annual military budgets, to help finance its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, over the last 20 years..

And, then there were the $billions$ of dollars that bankers pocketed after the GFC disaster -- money intended to rescue US banks, that went into directors pockets instead

Its borrowed to fund all deficit spending. Thats why we are at 22 trillion in debt now. What do you think the debt was 20 years ago?

You can have your opinions. You don't get to have your own facts.

Let me educate you again. Social security is a bigger expense than the military. The deficit is now bigger than military spending.

Those are facts. Now if you think we spend too much on the military, I would agree with you, but that is just our opinions. Others will have a different one.

Do you see the difference between fact and opinion or do you need more help?

by Original Quill Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:51 pm

Maddog wrote:Social security is a bigger expense than the military. The deficit is now bigger than military spending.

But, social security is self-sustaining. With each paycheck, everyone pays into it. The military is a totally socialist enterprise. There is no return on the money spent on the military.

That is why social security must be viewed apart from the line-by-line budget. It is an independent account. The military is by far the largest line item in the budget.

by Maddog Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:55 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:Social security is a bigger expense than the military. The deficit is now bigger than military spending.

But, social security is self-sustaining. With each paycheck, everyone pays into it. The military is a totally socialist enterprise. There is no return on the money spent on the military.

That is why social security must be viewed apart from the line-by-line budget. It is an independent account. The military is by far the largest line item in the budget.

Social security is an unfunded mandate that will collapse in a few decades without radical change.

It's all part of the budgets. You dont get your own facts.

by Maddog Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:00 pm

Is Social Security on a path to bankruptcy?

Per the 2017 Trustees report, the OASDI will begin paying out more in benefits than it's generating in annual revenue by 2022. Just 12 years after that, in 2034, the OASDI is expected to have completely exhausted its $3 trillion in asset reserves.

https://www.fool.com/retirement/2018/01/14/heres-when-social-security-will-be-bankrupt.aspx

How is it that you can live in the US and not know about the dire straits of social security?

by Original Quill Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:12 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

But, social security is self-sustaining. With each paycheck, everyone pays into it. The military is a totally socialist enterprise. There is no return on the money spent on the military.

That is why social security must be viewed apart from the line-by-line budget. It is an independent account. The military is by far the largest line item in the budget.

Social security is an unfunded mandate that will collapse in a few decades without radical change.

It's all part of the budgets. You dont get your own facts.

You are trying a word-game mindfook.

Social security has independent income, and it has independent outflow. Each paycheck has deductions for social security, and those constitute funding for a separate account. It is maintained as a separate fund.

You are trying to confuse things in an fog of equivocation. A generic 'budget' is an accounting. But THE budget is the budget of the US government, which is different from the budget of General Motors, Inc., the United Nations, or Social Security.

by Maddog Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:18 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Social security is an unfunded mandate that will collapse in a few decades without radical change.

It's all part of the budgets. You dont get your own facts.

You are trying a word-game mindfook.

Social security has independent income, and it has independent outflow. Each paycheck has deductions for social security, and those constitute funding for a separate account. It is maintained as a separate fund.

You are trying to confuse things in an fog of equivocation. A generic 'budget' is an accounting. But THE budget is the budget of the US government, which is different from the budget of General Motors, Inc., the United Nations, or Social Security.

Per the 2017 Trustees report, the OASDI will begin paying out more in benefits than it's generating in annual revenue by 2022. Just 12 years after that, in 2034, the OASDI is expected to have completely exhausted its $3 trillion in asset reserves.

by Original Quill Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:52 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

You are trying a word-game mindfook.

Social security has independent income, and it has independent outflow. Each paycheck has deductions for social security, and those constitute funding for a separate account. It is maintained as a separate fund.

You are trying to confuse things in an fog of equivocation. A generic 'budget' is an accounting. But THE budget is the budget of the US government, which is different from the budget of General Motors, Inc., the United Nations, or Social Security.
Per the 2017 Trustees report, the OASDI will begin paying out more in benefits than it's generating in annual revenue by 2022. Just 12 years after that, in 2034, the OASDI is expected to have completely exhausted its $3 trillion in asset reserves.

Bad management is a separate issue. Social Security is a separate account. Glad you admit it finally.

by eddie Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:06 pm

This country owes this many billion that country owes that many billion another one owes that many billion...

Not enough money exists in the world. It’s all numbers on a screen.

What if everyone said to everyone else:
“I’ll let you off”

No one would owe anything.

Simplistic but fucking true.

by Maddog Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:10 pm

eddie wrote:This country owes this many billion that country owes that many billion another one owes that many billion...

Not enough money exists in the world. It’s all numbers on a screen.

What if everyone said to everyone else:
“I’ll let you off”

No one would owe anything.

Simplistic but fucking true.

But the people that loaned the money would loose their investment and trillions of value would be wiped off the planet.

The effects would be catastrophic.

It's one thing if Sri Lanka defaults.

It's another if the US. That's why the thread title is so appropriate.

by Maddog Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:11 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:
Per the 2017 Trustees report, the OASDI will begin paying out more in benefits than it's generating in annual revenue by 2022. Just 12 years after that, in 2034, the OASDI is expected to have completely exhausted its $3 trillion in asset reserves.

Bad management is a separate issue. Social Security is a separate account. Glad you admit it finally.

Medicare is a separate account too.

The looming disaster is still there, if the debt is not controlled.

by Original Quill Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:16 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Bad management is a separate issue. Social Security is a separate account. Glad you admit it finally.

Medicare is a separate account too.

The looming disaster is still there, if the debt is controlled.

Medicare is a part of Social Security.

Disasters come and disasters go, we're still the richest nation on earth, and we are presently enjoying the Obama-created high-times. The military budget and Trump's wall will go before Social Security. So will Trump's tower in Moscow.

by Maddog Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:17 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Medicare is a separate account too.

The looming disaster is still there, if the debt is controlled.

Medicare is a part of Social Security.

Disasters come and disasters go, we're still the richest nation on earth, and we are presently enjoying the Obama-created high-times. The military budget and Trump's wall will go before Social Security. So will Trump's tower in Moscow.

We are 22 trillion in debt, and Obama and Trump have some blame in that.

How can a rich country be in debt?

by Maddog Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:20 pm

http://www.crfb.org/blogs/these-3-parts-budget-explain-87-spending-growth

Here is something else for Quill to ignore.

by Ben Reilly Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:29 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Medicare is a separate account too.

The looming disaster is still there, if the debt is controlled.

Medicare is a part of Social Security.

Disasters come and disasters go, we're still the richest nation on earth, and we are presently enjoying the Obama-created high-times. The military budget and Trump's wall will go before Social Security. So will Trump's tower in Moscow.

We are 22 trillion in debt, and Obama and Trump have some blame in that.

How can a rich country be in debt?

Actually it doesn't matter. Cheney said that Reagan proved deficits don't matter, and he was right. If only because certain people have been saying the end is nigh for about 30 years now.

by JulesV Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:09 pm

eddie wrote:This country owes this many billion that country owes that many billion another one owes that many billion...

Not enough money exists in the world. It’s all numbers on a screen.

What if everyone said to everyone else:
“I’ll let you off”

No one would owe anything.

Simplistic but fucking true.

The suggestion doing the rounds after the first big dow jones crash was …
"whoever the world owes all these trillions to - let's go find the fkker & kill him."
End of debt, problem solved. The real emergency facing the US. 4214183177

The real emergency facing the US. 4214183177

by eddie Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:20 pm

Jules wrote:
eddie wrote:This country owes this many billion that country owes that many billion another one owes that many billion...

Not enough money exists in the world. It’s all numbers on a screen.

What if everyone said to everyone else:
“I’ll let you off”

No one would owe anything.

Simplistic but fucking true.
The suggestion doing the rounds after the first big dow jones crash was …
"whoever the world owes all these trillions to - let's go find the fkker & kill him."
End of debt, problem solved.

Sounds good to me Jules. cyclops

by JulesV Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:47 pm

…..

by Maddog Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:38 pm

>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:
Maddog wrote:

We are 22 trillion in debt, and Obama and Trump have some blame in that.

How can a rich country be in debt?

Actually it doesn't matter. Cheney said that Reagan proved deficits don't matter, and he was right. If only because certain people have been saying the end is nigh for about 30 years now.

If deficits don't matter, why collect taxes? The real emergency facing the US. 2190311264

by Original Quill Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:47 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Medicare is a part of Social Security.

Disasters come and disasters go, we're still the richest nation on earth, and we are presently enjoying the Obama-created high-times. The military budget and Trump's wall will go before Social Security. So will Trump's tower in Moscow.

We are 22 trillion in debt, and Obama and Trump have some blame in that.

How can a rich country be in debt?

Debt is an asset. The real measure of wealth is the ability to go into debt, and how far. This is measured by the three 'C's: capability, collateral and character.

by Original Quill Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:48 pm

Maddog wrote:
>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:

Actually it doesn't matter. Cheney said that Reagan proved deficits don't matter, and he was right. If only because certain people have been saying the end is nigh for about 30 years now.

If deficits don't matter, why collect taxes?

For purposes of apportionment.

by Original Quill Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:56 pm

eddie wrote:
Jules wrote:
The suggestion doing the rounds after the first big dow jones crash was …
"whoever the world owes all these trillions to - let's go find the fkker & kill him."
End of debt, problem solved.

Sounds good to me Jules.

It's that elderly Canadian couple who own all those hydro-electric plants.

by veya_victaous Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:07 am

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Medicare is a separate account too.

The looming disaster is still there, if the debt is controlled.

Medicare is a part of Social Security.

Disasters come and disasters go, we're still the richest nation on earth, and we are presently enjoying the Obama-created high-times. The military budget and Trump's wall will go before Social Security. So will Trump's tower in Moscow.

We are 22 trillion in debt, and Obama and Trump have some blame in that.

How can a rich country be in debt?

Because it is not like personal finance it is more comparable to corporate finance, where yes most are always in debt (to suppliers, share holders, employees, tax office etc) debt isn't a problem if it allows you to earn more than the interest on the debt. it is part of doing business

by Maddog Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:42 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Maddog wrote:

We are 22 trillion in debt, and Obama and Trump have some blame in that.

How can a rich country be in debt?

Because it is not like personal finance it is more comparable to corporate finance, where yes most are always in debt (to suppliers, share holders, employees, tax office etc) debt isn't a problem if it allows you to earn more than the interest on the debt. it is part of doing business

I understand that. But countries have collapsed from too much debt. There is a level where it becomes crippling, especially the interest payments on the debt.

If debt didn't matter, the EU wouldn't have restrictions on how much debt a country can carry.

by veya_victaous Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:01 am

Maddog wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
Maddog wrote:

We are 22 trillion in debt, and Obama and Trump have some blame in that.

How can a rich country be in debt?

Because it is not like personal finance it is more comparable to corporate finance, where yes most are always in debt (to suppliers, share holders, employees, tax office etc) debt isn't a problem if it allows you to earn more than the interest on the debt. it is part of doing business

I understand that. But countries have collapsed from too much debt. There is a level where it becomes crippling, especially the interest payments on the debt.

If debt didn't matter, the EU wouldn't have restrictions on how much debt a country can carry.

True but the USA is not even close to that
total debt is 22 trillion but the economy generates almost that much every year
19.39 trillion USD (2017)

the combination of debt and substandard services means there is very good argument that more of the GDP should be directed to Gov't Coffer instead of Private Wallets Wink

by veya_victaous Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:04 am

compare to Greece.

GDP is 200.3 billion USD ‎(2017)
National debt is 365.57 billion USD (2017)

by 'Wolfie Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:15 am

When it comes to overall debt levels, you can also break it down into "essential payments", and "good" and "bad" forms of debts..

Essential payments are like looking at repaying your home mortgage and car repayments, putting basic foods on the table, and simply keeping -- so in government terms, you look at wages, aged pensions, basic national healthcare needs, paying off the interest on long term loams -- those items that are essential in keeping a country together...

When it comes to borrowing money, a "good" debt is one that is used for essential, practical and worthy causes : roadways, power generation, water supplies, public hospitals and medical services, providing basic education on a universal scale, enabling communications and transport networks at a national level.

"Bad" debts can be listed as those that aren't needed, and are clearly a waste of money -- borrowing money to fight foreign wars in countries that aren't threatening you; building unnecessary border "walls" purely for show; throwing money at highly polluting industries (e.g. Big Oil, thermal coal..), rather than encouraging better alternatives; making up the shortfalls from giving excessive tax breaks to political donors and their families.

When a country spends itself into "3rd world" scenarios, and eventually bankrupts itself, it usually comes about when their "bad" debts have exceeded their "good" debts, their mismanagement has crippled their national economy (and overall taxation revenue is no longer sufficient to pay the bills..), and the "money men" at the top (whether dictators, oligarchs, royalty, military, politicians -- and/or their financial backers..) have either stolen or squandered much of the national wealth..

by veya_victaous Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:42 am

the real emergency facing the USA is Changing it's spending.

It needs to do more to ensure a decent standard of living for the majority
If people don't have money for superficial expenditure than the economy retracts which increases the Debt to GDP ratio as much as borrowing more. the retraction effects small business first since people can't afford to visit the cafe/restaurant or get non-essential home improvements and personal services etc.

too much wealth is concentrated in too few hands, they only need so many maids and butlers and everyone is just trying to earn enough to survive. this is having the biggest impact on the US economy, not enough money is circulating in the low end to support the local small businesses, which in turn provide local employment opportunities.

by Maddog Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:52 am

veya_victaous wrote:the real emergency facing the USA is Changing it's spending.

It needs to do more to ensure a decent standard of living for the majority
If people don't have money for superficial expenditure than the economy retracts which increases the Debt to GDP ratio as much as borrowing more. the retraction effects small business first since people can't afford to visit the cafe/restaurant or get non-essential home improvements and personal services etc.

too much wealth is concentrated in too few hands, they only need so many maids and butlers and everyone is just trying to earn enough to survive. this is having the biggest impact on the US economy, not enough money is circulating in the low end to support the local small businesses, which in turn provide local employment opportunities.

None of what you said has anything to do with the spending and debt at the federal level. Countries do collapse from too much debt, and it's never pretty. There is nothing saying it cant happen to the US.

If the US starts to collapse, the whole global economy goes down.

2009 would be nothing as the US had plenty of room go borrow itself out if trouble. The next time might be different.

Now is the time for the US to get ready for the next economic situation that arises instead of adding to the debt in record numbers. The economy is strong, unemployment is low and there is no reason for high levels of military spending.

by veya_victaous Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:59 am

If lots of low paid jobs and a 3rd world standard of living is what you want for your nation then, You're right tongue

If you want normal people to be able to start a business, have a fulfilling career, have a holiday, go out to dinner... or even just get healthcare, decent food and shelter. Then things need adjustment Cool

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