Can biological males be lesbians?

Can a biological male be a lesbian? If this question seems to you outlandish, it’s probably because you’re unaware of a new paradigm, in vogue in many millennial communities, progressive organisations, and University departments. This paradigm says that a transwoman can count as a lesbian; and that many do.

Though precise statistics are unavailable, many transwomen are exclusively female-attracted. Prior to transition, they’re what we would ordinarily call heterosexual, or straight: males stably attracted to the opposite biological sex. When transition occurs, this pattern of attraction usually persists. But, for some, it’s unacceptable to now think of themselves as straight - for this carries with it a lingering connotation of manhood, now rejected. Hence some transwomen self-identify as lesbians. They do so even where their transition is only social, and not medical - which is most of the time. The rest of us are now urged to accept the phenomenon of a ‘lesbian with a penis’, or even a ‘girldick’.

When a group of lesbians called ‘Get the L Out’ disrupted the London Pride procession last year with banners saying ‘lesbian=female homosexual’, many were quick to express disgust at what they assumed was transphobia. When Labour activist Lily Madigan got involved in a Twitter argument last week with a lesbian academic about whether transwomen could be lesbians, many automatically took Madigan’s side, assuming this must be straightforward bigotry towards a vulnerable transwoman. However, a closer look at some documented background concerns here should slow down the knee-jerk outrage in both cases. In a nutshell, the main general concern - which is a structural one, and not directed towards any particular trans individuals - is given existing misogyny, when you admit males into a formerly female-only domain, certain predictable and harmful things start happening to females.

I’ll focus here on two such predictable things. The first is that, to put it crudely but accurately, males start badgering females for sex. A familiar phenomenon since time immemorial, one might think, though this time with an added twist: progressives are facilitating. Some trans ‘lesbians ‘ complain that lesbians won’t consider them as potential partners. Their focus is lesbians, because hitting on straight women might threaten the preferred narrative: a straight woman is attracted to men, after all. The resistance of many lesbians to have sex with male-bodied people is framed as a matter of inequality rather than orientation, and therefore something to be corrected in the name of progress. Lesbian resistance is sometimes referred to as the ‘cotton ceiling’, crassly riffing on the idea of a promotion ceiling for women at work, but substituting images of glass with that of underwear. Equally, sometimes those resisting are called ‘TERFs’, because it is assumed that their resistance is a result of trans-exclusive radical feminism, rather than because they are homosexual.


https://www.thearticle.com/can-biological-males-be-lesbians/


Plenty more to read on the link.

It’s reminds me of the book “The Well of Loneliness”.

It was written years ago, when it was terrible to be gay, and it’s about a woman who feels she was born in the wrong body, she felt like a man and was attracted to women. Her anguish was based upon the fact that all the women she fancied were feminine and girly and therefore heterosexual. The women who were “available” to her seemed to “manly”

I know those are stereotypes nowadays but back then, that’s how it seemed to her.

It was a great book and I believe it was banned for a while.

Well, if you're sexually attracted to women, to call yourself "straight" would be the same thing as calling yourself "male," right?

Also:

The first is that, to put it crudely but accurately, males start badgering females for sex.

Whereas lesbians spend all their time hiking, watching 'Ellen,' listening to Ani DiFranco ... yeah, I'm pretty sure lesbians pester other lesbians for sex

eddie wrote:It’s reminds me of the book “The Well of Loneliness”.

It was written years ago, when it was terrible to be gay, and it’s about a woman who feels she was born in the wrong body, she felt like a man and was attracted to women. Her anguish was based upon the fact that all the women she fancied were feminine and girly and therefore heterosexual. The women who were “available” to her seemed to “manly”

I know those are stereotypes nowadays but back then, that’s how it seemed to her.

It was a great book and I believe it was banned for a while.

I believe we should give all the support and help to people who have gender dysphoria Eddie

What concerns me a radical group, that are again men, self indentifying as women, with no history of previous histories of gender dysphoria

What also worries me is the rights of others being supersceded, by these same people through laws

The reality is this

If as claimed by some of these radicals, that sex is interchanable in humans. Which has no biological bases. Where they claim sex is not biological. It shows the warped path thatsociety is descending into. It will simple render homosexuality and hetrosexuality redundent. They will then cease to be a group protected from  discrimination

Hence why I posed these points here on this thread, in the first post

http://www.newsfixboard.com/t26094-what-is-going-to-happen-to-gay-rights-hetrosexual-rights-female-rights-and-mens-rights

Wait, I'm confused.  A guy is supposed to fantasize he is a woman, who is attracted to women, as a woman?

I would recommend he get familiar with porn sites, and not bother so much about who's who.  

confused.com

Lord Foul wrote:confused.com

I am as well, its too much to consider through right now, I've lost my thread with this, I'll read it again tomorrow.

You know what? Who cares who fancies who. It's a free world. Too much emphasis is placed on the angst of it all. Just accept people and the problem and stigma might go

The article, and this issue, is massively confusing to me.

Surely, if a lesbian has sex with a transition transwoman, she is still a lesbian. She was attracted to a feminine body in the first place (one without a penis). So she certainly isn't straight.

The grey area is lesbians in relationships with pre-transition transwomen, because surely the genitals would be a turn of?

Ir is super confising. I have a male friend in a relationship with a pretransition transwoman. He is straight. He is attracted to women. The idea of sex with a man doea not appeal to him: at all. He doesn't look twice at attractive men in the street (which any self-respecting gay man would lol). He looks at women.

Yet he is witbh someone who, while appearing as feminine as any other girl I know (and more than many lol), has the genitals of a male.

Is there even a word for that? Is he straight? To me he is. But most straight people wouldn't sleep with someone with the same genitals. And most gay people wouldn't sleep with someone with genitals of the opposite sex.

And then that - I object to the fact above making me 'transphobic', I just know what does it for me.

So yeah, very, very confusing...

Eilzel wrote:The article, and this issue, is massively confusing to me.

Surely, if a lesbian has sex with a transition transwoman, she is still a lesbian. She was attracted to a feminine body in the first place (one without a penis). So she certainly isn't straight.

The grey area is lesbians in relationships with pre-transition transwomen, because surely the genitals would be a turn of?

Ir is super confising. I have a male friend in a relationship with a pretransition transwoman. He is straight. He is attracted to women. The idea of sex with a man doea not appeal to him: at all. He doesn't look twice at attractive men in the street (which any self-respecting gay man would lol). He looks at women.

Yet he is witbh someone who, while appearing as feminine as any other girl I know (and more than many lol), has the genitals of a male.

Is there even a word for that? Is he straight? To me he is. But most straight people wouldn't sleep with someone with the same genitals. And most gay people wouldn't sleep with someone with genitals of the opposite sex.

And then that - I object to the fact above making me 'transphobic', I just know what does it for me.

So yeah, very, very confusing...

I think one way to look at this, could maybe be through the lens of a fetish.

As like you say the vast majority of people for example that are heterosexual, would not be atracted to the same sex and certainly not the penis.Yet its known that some men like their female partners to where strap-ons and have sex with them annally. That certainly does not make those men homosexual, as they still are only attracted to women. So hence the confusion with all of this, is based around what sexually excites come people.

The question to answer in regards to your friend, is whether if they have sex, what turns him on here. Sorry I know this is a tad personal, but to me, is at the heart of what is the real answer to the question. It could be that your friend is bisexual, with more a view to femine features, but is turned on sexually, by both male and female sexual parts. To me, a lesbian is female attracted to females. So the question to ask, though this may be a tad personal to even ask your friend. Is whether they maybe in fact more bisexual and turned on be femine features. Which could then clearly include some femine men.

I also think that a number of men, that identity as transwomen and self identify as women. Without a view to transitition, are still clearly turned on by their male hormones. Even someone fully transitioned and pre-transitioning still is turned on by their male hormones and pheromones. They will clearly be on drugs to reduce their levels testosterone, but they are still turned on biologically through these male horomones.   T

This is the factor that is even more over looked through all of this is pheromones which are distinctly male and female that are produced. What gets women going, that men produce is a chemical called androstadienone, through their hair and armpits. Women through their urine, which is called estratetraenol. Which begs the view, that it could be that again and mean some trans women are simple attracted homosexually to men. As their attraction has always been to males pre-transition. We know homosexuallity is biological and thus transwomen attracted to women, are then hetrosexual. As they are as attracted to women, through the same pheromones, as other hetrosexual men. Thus I cannot see a possible way how a Transwomen can be a lesbian with present knowledge. Though again science may find an explanation that says otherwise.

Now we know through studies that homosexual men respond the same as women do to androstadienone, as studies have been conducted on this, but what is clearly not clear is how this reacts with people who are Transgender and needs to be looked into to further understand the attractions going on.

I think this is the real key to understanding this and it cannot be overlooked

So not meaning to be crude, but  does your friend get turned on by his girlfriends male sexual organ and engages in sexual pleasure through this? What would be even more important to understand is again what attrcats your friend through pheromones.

The difficult more arises with those born intersex. Which has generally been through a mutation through the pregnancy. Where in some cases the baby has been exposed to lots of testosterone. Though many intersex, come to see what sex they are themselves

It is a difficult grey area and why to me, far more studies are required to understand this all mate

HoratioTarr wrote:You know what?   Who cares who fancies who.  It's a free world.  Too much emphasis is placed on the angst of it all.  Just accept people and the problem and stigma might go

I think all can agree with that here, but sometimes this does effect other people. As there is such a thing as sex by deception. Which is where recently the LGBT group "Stonewall". Is activelly seeking to change the law to protect the identity of transgender people with this.

https://twitter.com/Docstockk/status/1084793421372575745

https://twitter.com/STILLTish/status/1084788316317380609

So I completely agree that people should just accept who people are. It would be even better if people were honest who they are in the first place. If the view is to protect people who lie and decieve people, what sort of society are we creating here?

Thor wrote:

Eilzel wrote:The article, and this issue, is massively confusing to me.

Surely, if a lesbian has sex with a transition transwoman, she is still a lesbian. She was attracted to a feminine body in the first place (one without a penis). So she certainly isn't straight.

The grey area is lesbians in relationships with pre-transition transwomen, because surely the genitals would be a turn of?

Ir is super confising. I have a male friend in a relationship with a pretransition transwoman. He is straight. He is attracted to women. The idea of sex with a man doea not appeal to him: at all. He doesn't look twice at attractive men in the street (which any self-respecting gay man would lol). He looks at women.

Yet he is witbh someone who, while appearing as feminine as any other girl I know (and more than many lol), has the genitals of a male.

Is there even a word for that? Is he straight? To me he is. But most straight people wouldn't sleep with someone with the same genitals. And most gay people wouldn't sleep with someone with genitals of the opposite sex.

And then that - I object to the fact above making me 'transphobic', I just know what does it for me.

So yeah, very, very confusing...

I think one way to look at this, could maybe be through the lens of a fetish.

As like you say the vast majority of people for example that are heterosexual, would not be atracted to the same sex and certainly not the penis.Yet its known that some men like their female partners to where strap-ons and have sex with them annally. That certainly does not make those men homosexual, as they still are only attracted to women. So hence the confusion with all of this, is based around what sexually excites come people.

The question to answer in regards to your friend, is whether if they have sex, what turns him on here. Sorry I know this is a tad personal, but to me, is at the heart of what is the real answer to the question. It could be that your friend is bisexual, with more a view to femine features, but is turned on sexually, by both male and female sexual parts. To me, a lesbian is female attracted to females. So the question to ask, though this may be a tad personal to even ask your friend. Is whether they maybe in fact more bisexual and turned on be femine features. Which could then clearly include some femine men.

I also think that a number of men, that identity as transwomen and self identify as women. Without a view to transitition, are still clearly turned on by their male hormones. Even someone fully transitioned and pre-transitioning still is turned on by their male hormones and pheromones. They will clearly be on drugs to reduce their levels testosterone, but they are still turned on biologically through these male horomones.   T

This is the factor that is even more over looked through all of this is pheromones which are distinctly male and female that are produced. What gets women going, that men produce is a chemical called androstadienone, through their hair and armpits. Women through their urine, which is called estratetraenol. Which begs the view, that it could be that again and mean some trans women are simple attracted homosexually to men. As their attraction has always been to males pre-transition. We know homosexuallity is biological and thus transwomen attracted to women, are then hetrosexual. As they are as attracted to women, through the same pheromones, as other hetrosexual men. Thus I cannot see a possible way how a Transwomen can be a lesbian with present knowledge. Though again science may find an explanation that says otherwise.

Now we know through studies that homosexual men respond the same as women do to androstadienone, as studies have been conducted on this, but what is clearly not clear is how this reacts with people who are Transgender and needs to be looked into to further understand the attractions going on.

I think this is the real key to understanding this and it cannot be overlooked

So not meaning to be crude, but  does your friend get turned on by his girlfriends male sexual organ and engages in sexual pleasure through this? What would be even more important to understand is again what attrcats your friend through pheromones.

The difficult more arises with those born intersex. Which has generally been through a mutation through the pregnancy. Where in some cases the baby has been exposed to lots of testosterone. Though many intersex, come to see what sex they are themselves

It is a difficult grey area and why to me, far more studies are required to understand this all mate

I meant to say also mate, that nobody should be cast a transphobe for wanting to discuss this and that is the sad reality. That anyone is being shut down by some of these Trans radical activists. Its starting to get ridiculous and you are in now way a bigoted person or transphobic.

Anyway have a good day mate

Thor wrote:

Eilzel wrote:The article, and this issue, is massively confusing to me.

Surely, if a lesbian has sex with a transition transwoman, she is still a lesbian. She was attracted to a feminine body in the first place (one without a penis). So she certainly isn't straight.

The grey area is lesbians in relationships with pre-transition transwomen, because surely the genitals would be a turn of?

Ir is super confising. I have a male friend in a relationship with a pretransition transwoman. He is straight. He is attracted to women. The idea of sex with a man doea not appeal to him: at all. He doesn't look twice at attractive men in the street (which any self-respecting gay man would lol). He looks at women.

Yet he is witbh someone who, while appearing as feminine as any other girl I know (and more than many lol), has the genitals of a male.

Is there even a word for that? Is he straight? To me he is. But most straight people wouldn't sleep with someone with the same genitals. And most gay people wouldn't sleep with someone with genitals of the opposite sex.

And then that - I object to the fact above making me 'transphobic', I just know what does it for me.

So yeah, very, very confusing...

I think one way to look at this, could maybe be through the lens of a fetish.

As like you say the vast majority of people for example that are heterosexual, would not be atracted to the same sex and certainly not the penis.Yet its known that some men like their female partners to where strap-ons and have sex with them annally. That certainly does not make those men homosexual, as they still are only attracted to women. So hence the confusion with all of this, is based around what sexually excites come people.

The question to answer in regards to your friend, is whether if they have sex, what turns him on here. Sorry I know this is a tad personal, but to me, is at the heart of what is the real answer to the question. It could be that your friend is bisexual, with more a view to femine features, but is turned on sexually, by both male and female sexual parts. To me, a lesbian is female attracted to females. So the question to ask, though this may be a tad personal to even ask your friend. Is whether they maybe in fact more bisexual and turned on be femine features. Which could then clearly include some femine men.

I also think that a number of men, that identity as transwomen and self identify as women. Without a view to transitition, are still clearly turned on by their male hormones. Even someone fully transitioned and pre-transitioning still is turned on by their male hormones and pheromones. They will clearly be on drugs to reduce their levels testosterone, but they are still turned on biologically through these male horomones.   T

This is the factor that is even more over looked through all of this is pheromones which are distinctly male and female that are produced. What gets women going, that men produce is a chemical called androstadienone, through their hair and armpits. Women through their urine, which is called estratetraenol. Which begs the view, that it could be that again and mean some trans women are simple attracted homosexually to men. As their attraction has always been to males pre-transition. We know homosexuallity is biological and thus transwomen attracted to women, are then hetrosexual. As they are as attracted to women, through the same pheromones, as other hetrosexual men. Thus I cannot see a possible way how a Transwomen can be a lesbian with present knowledge. Though again science may find an explanation that says otherwise.

Now we know through studies that homosexual men respond the same as women do to androstadienone, as studies have been conducted on this, but what is clearly not clear is how this reacts with people who are Transgender and needs to be looked into to further understand the attractions going on.

I think this is the real key to understanding this and it cannot be overlooked

So not meaning to be crude, but  does your friend get turned on by his girlfriends male sexual organ and engages in sexual pleasure through this? What would be even more important to understand is again what attrcats your friend through pheromones.

The difficult more arises with those born intersex. Which has generally been through a mutation through the pregnancy. Where in some cases the baby has been exposed to lots of testosterone. Though many intersex, come to see what sex they are themselves

It is a difficult grey area and why to me, far more studies are required to understand this all mate

It's very grey; even reading all those different terms sends my head spinning tbh

As to my friend (and there are things even I don't know, obviously); all his previous relationships were with biological women. He is not turned on, whatsoever, by even feminine looking men (and we live in Thailand, where feminine looking men are not in short supply, and I'm not talking about Thai trans women). They have to appear as women for him to be attracted to them. In our conversations, he has entertained the idea he might be bisexual, but to me if someone is not attracted to men (even feminine looking ones) at all, then they are not bisexual. Because for a bisexual their heads will be turned by men AND women in the street without discrimination.

My friend isn't like that. I suppose it depends how much importance you put on the sexual organs. I don't think many people are 'attracted' to genitals of any kind - (they aren't innately attractive things tbh  ) - rather they are attracted to the person and a person comes as a whole package. I guess, to put it crudely, if you open the package and it isn't what you expect, you might reconsider your choice

Some people, however, might see that in this one department the person they were attracted to is NOT all they thought they were, and simply decide "whatever" and see how it goes. It is more open/experimental than I'd ever be (or most people, I imagine). There might be a word for this, which is not quite just a fetish, but I don't know what that word is. But I'd say that the main point is that the person is simply not putting much stock in genitals.

^^PS: I agree, to not want to be sexual involved with a trans person is NOT transphobic. Likewise, to not typically be attracted to people of a particular skin colour is not racist
(a big 'debate' in the LGBT community right now is that some say it is...).

Some very interesting points mate. The sexual organs are an extension of the attraction with both men and women. Its not simple just the face, but the figure as well. For example many men are turned on by breasts and the shape of the butt and hips, which is well defined within females. So many men seeing someone has a dick, are going to be immediately turned off. Just as I am sure many lesbians could and do feel the same, though not all are, as it seems. So its mind boggling all of this. Clearly many women are in the main turned on by muscular toned men, just as many gay men also are. So I agree its simple not just the sexual organs, but the later play a massive part in whether someone is turned on or off sexually. So your point on opening the package and being disappointed is very valid. Where again body shapes also play a part in how people are turned on. People are turned on by a prefernce of body shapes and sizes. No matter if gay or straight. Where again nobody can control this, its simple what makes them phsycially and sexually attracted to someone. Of course everyone can control how they act on this attraction and I think those who are transgender should be open on at the very start with people they wish to date. This allows the other person they are dating to also become comfortable, as your friend has.

I mean some transwomen, simple are as stunning as other women, but some just look as manly as they always have. Not being horrible there either, as again to me, its more about how feminine or masculine someone does look.

I certainly feel for those who are transgender knowing that such openess, could lead to many a rejection by people not being open minded. Though here your freind is very open minded. As clearly some will be close minded through all this. This video illustrates that at least honesty is the way forward for trans people and that there is people out there, who are open minded, just as your friend is.



I agree people are not simple 'attracted' to genitals of any kind, but they are certainly part of the whole package.(No pun intended lol) I mean your point on what is on the inside of people in their hearts as to what we also find attractive is massive in how we come to love someone, but people still need to be phsycially and sexually attracted to someone. No matter how strong that inner love we have for someone. Though the reality is espcially with some men and women. Is like with men that love big breasts they are like wow. Or some women when they see a big dick, they are like wow (or some gay men also). It clearly adds to the sexual excitment.

Its very interesting with your friend and some people simple do not tick all the boxes that we would percreive people to be in such cases. Its such a grey area and why I think its very important to further understand this with studies, but the sad reality is there are trans activists trying to shut down any studies that they perceive wrongly, that could challenge their beliefs. Which is what it boils down to her, peoples beliefs.

Maybe neurology can help provide the answers here. Or as I said with studies around pheromones and hormones. Like i say though, I feel for many trans people in how difficult it must feel to be accepted into society. Those that have knowne very much all their lives, they are trapped into the wrong body and they do deserve every dignity and respect. They face a massive hurdle in finding people being atracted to them, when being honest, but that does not mean this should allow some then to be dishonest. Clearly acceptance is the key.

Though to me, my biggest concern is in regards to children and how where many are confused over their idenity, whether that be gay or have gender dysphoria. The line taken often is that they then must have gender dysphoria. When as seen many simple grow out of this and are simple gay. Which to me, is a very grey thin line, in regards to the difference between the two.I think if they are put on steroids, puberty blockers etc too early pre teens or eraly teens. This can lead to then some wanting life changing surgery and in the end these people were simple gay and come to regret the decision of surgery. This is why again to me, and I do class this as conversion therapy with people who suffer gender dysphoria. Should not start with anyone, until they are adults. By then they are at least of mental state to know and understand this is what they want. Even then I have reservations in regards to surgery. As there is no clear idea, that this actually really does help people with gender dysphoria. Neither do we know what long term effect on the medication treatment for people with gender dysphoria has. Like I say,children who clearly are gender dysphora, should be allowed to come to this decision themselves without influence, by the time they are adults. They should have all the support and care provided by the medical profession and society as a whole. No medical professions should decide this in children, but leave this open as a possibility, they may have this medical condition. Which is not confirmed until adulthood. Where then and only then medication treatment should only then be allowed. As starting to early could lead people who are simple gay, into wrongly believeing they are trapped inside the wrong body.

Very interesting debate mate, so thanks

Anyway, have to go, so speak later

Thor wrote:Some very interesting points mate. The sexual organs are an extension of the attraction with both men and women. Its not simple just the face, but the figure as well. For example many men are turned on by breasts and the shape of the butt and hips, which is well defined within females. So many men seeing someone has a dick, are going to be immediately turned off. Just as I am sure many lesbians could and do feel the same, though not all are, as it seems. So its mind boggling all of this. Clearly many women are in the main turned on by muscular toned men, just as many gay men also are. So I agree its simple not just the sexual organs, but the later play a massive part in whether someone is turned on or off sexually. So your point on opening the package and being disappointed is very valid. Where again body shapes also play a part in how people are turned on. People are turned on by a prefernce of body shapes and sizes. No matter if gay or straight. Where again nobody can control this, its simple what makes them phsycially and sexually attracted to someone. Of course everyone can control how they act on this attraction and I think those who are transgender should be open on at the very start with people they wish to date. This allows the other person they are dating to also become comfortable, as your friend has.

I mean some transwomen, simple are as stunning as other women, but some just look as manly as they always have. Not being horrible there either, as again to me, its more about how feminine or masculine someone does look.

I certainly feel for those who are transgender knowing that such openess, could lead to many a rejection by people not being open minded. Though here your freind is very open minded. As clearly some will be close minded through all this. This video illustrates that at least honesty is the way forward for trans people and that there is people out there, who are open minded, just as your friend is.



I agree people are not simple 'attracted' to genitals of any kind, but they are certainly part of the whole package.(No pun intended lol) I mean your point on what is on the inside of people in their hearts as to what we also find attractive is massive in how we come to love someone, but people still need to be phsycially and sexually attracted to someone. No matter how strong that inner love we have for someone. Though the reality is espcially with some men and women. Is like with men that love big breasts they are like wow. Or some women when they see a big dick, they are like wow (or some gay men also). It clearly adds to the sexual excitment.

Its very interesting with your friend and some people simple do not tick all the boxes that we would percreive people to be in such cases. Its such a grey area and why I think its very important to further understand this with studies, but the sad reality is there are trans activists trying to shut down any studies that they perceive wrongly, that could challenge their beliefs. Which is what it boils down to her, peoples beliefs.

Maybe neurology can help provide the answers here. Or as I said with studies around pheromones and hormones. Like i say though, I feel for many trans people in how difficult it must feel to be accepted into society. Those that have knowne very much all their lives, they are trapped into the wrong body and they do deserve every dignity and respect. They face a massive hurdle in finding people being atracted to them, when being honest, but that does not mean this should allow some then to be dishonest. Clearly acceptance is the key.

Though to me, my biggest concern is in regards to children and how where many are confused over their idenity, whether that be gay or have gender dysphoria. The line taken often is that they then must have gender dysphoria. When as seen many simple grow out of this and are simple gay. I think if they are put on steroids, puberty blockers etc too early. This can lead to then some wanting life changing surgery and in the end these people were simple gay and come to regret the decision of surgery. This is why again to me, and I do class this as conversion therapy with people who suffer gender dysphoria. Should not start with anyone, until they are adults. By then they are at least of mental state to know and understand this is what they want. Even then I have reservations in regards to surgery. As there is no clear idea, that actually really does help people with gender dysphoria. Neither do we know what long term effect on the medication treatment for people with gender dysphoria has. Like I say,children who clearly are gener dysphora, should be allowed to come to this decision themselves without influence, by the time they are adults. Where then  and only then medication treatment should only then be allowed. As starting to early could lead people who are simple gay, into wrongly believeing they are trapped inside the wrong body.

Very interesting debate mate, so thanks

Anyway, have to go, so speak later

I agree with pretty much everything you say there.

And some trans activists are creating more problems, agreed, the idea anyone should be condemned for not being attracted to someone who is trans is absolutely ludicrous. You just cannot dictate attraction and feelings.

The vast majority of trans people have my absolutely sympathy, and I'd argue with all I have with anyone who tries to tell them they are not the gender they are. And they deserve to be treated with respect.

But I also totally agree that transitioning kids, who tend to go through so many stages and phases in their development, is absolutely deplorable. I can't even begin to understand how a parent could willingly use any kind of medication on their child to help with a transition. You are absolutely right that it is dangerous. And the most absurd thing is that there are still battles to be fought regarding trans rights that ARE worth fighting for; and dangerous side shows like this are having a wildly detrimental effect. Hopefully sense will be restored but sadly I see that only happening when we start hearing large numbers of disasters where some of the kids doing this grow up to regret it.

As a matter of interest, just what are "Trans rights" ?

nicko wrote:As a matter of interest,   just what are "Trans rights" ?

Equal rights for trans people.

The right to have their gender legally changed on all their documentation.
The right to use the bathroom of the gender they identify as.
The right to not be discriminated against on the grounds of being trans.
The right to adopt.
The right to do any job they choose.

In fairness, these are more issues to be fought over in other countries, the UK is pretty far ahead already.

Eilzel wrote:

nicko wrote:As a matter of interest,   just what are "Trans rights" ?

Equal rights for trans people.

The right to have their gender legally changed on all their documentation.
The right to use the bathroom of the gender they identify as.
The right to not be discriminated against on the grounds of being trans.
The right to adopt.
The right to do any job they choose.

In fairness, these are more issues to be fought over in other countries, the UK is pretty far ahead already.

The last one should be - the right to given the same chance as anyone else to do the job they choose. Not everyone gets to do the job they choose to do.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

nicko wrote:As a matter of interest,   just what are "Trans rights" ?

Equal rights for trans people.

The right to have their gender legally changed on all their documentation.
The right to use the bathroom of the gender they identify as.
The right to not be discriminated against on the grounds of being trans.
The right to adopt.
The right to do any job they choose.

In fairness, these are more issues to be fought over in other countries, the UK is pretty far ahead already.

The last one should be - the right to given the same chance as anyone else to do the job they choose. Not everyone gets to do the job they choose to do.

Pedantic

Fair to say that's what I meant.

Eilzel wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

The last one should be - the right to given the same chance as anyone else to do the job they choose. Not everyone gets to do the job they choose to do.

Pedantic

Fair to say that's what I meant.

Jolly good. Not everyone can be a top model, for example.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Pedantic

Fair to say that's what I meant.

Jolly good. Not everyone can be a top model, for example.

These are the chromosomes of someone who doesn’t have XX or XY. This person has XXY. Because they have a Y, they have the reproductive organs of a male.

https://genetics.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticist/transgender-intersex-sex-chromosomes

Eilzel wrote:

nicko wrote:As a matter of interest,   just what are "Trans rights" ?

Equal rights for trans people.

The right to have their gender legally changed on all their documentation.
The right to use the bathroom of the gender they identify as.
The right to not be discriminated against on the grounds of being trans.
The right to adopt.
The right to do any job they choose.

In fairness, these are more issues to be fought over in other countries, the UK is pretty far ahead already.

The first two points can be problematic, when they are open to being abused.
So the question to ask, is what point of transition,should then people rightly be able to change their gender. To use facilities that gain them acces to areas, that were not spaces for them to be within. I mean its a dumb sterotype to have mother baby changing rooms. Why are they not single rooms for either a mother or father to have access, to change and clean up their baby when they have pooped themselves?

Its as i said, predatory, men can simple then if the law changes, that anyone can simple identify as a different gender. Based on no biological or neurogically understanding. Is simple opening up the door, for predatory men or women for that matter to abuse the system.

Its horrible dilema, that many transgender people should not have to face or be discriminated against. When they truely want to be accepted into society, as the opposite sex.

So where do we draw the line on this mate?

Your last 3 points should all be logically part of law, that they never face such discrimination

The grey area, is around how to determine all of this on the first two points, without sacrificing the rights of other groups. Though to me as seen your second point can and easily be resolved

So how do we find equality within all of this, when many Trans people rightly should be accepted into society as the opposite sex they were born into?

Is it then really equal rights, by simple allowing people to self identify over that of their birth sex without any form of transitioning? Other than simple growing their hair long and wearing makeup?

Contrary to what some Trans radicals claim, that sex is determined at birth by doctors is inherantly false. Its determined long before this in the womb. Even worse some of these radicals claim biological sex, is a social construct. Which is blatantly absurd.

So I have no issue with trans people that live their lives as the oppoisite sex, wanting to be excepted as how they now live their lives. What many have an objection to , is by creating a view to allow people to self identify, without any checks or measures on this. Will clearly open up the door to abuse.

I think in reality we can nulllify the second point as stated, by doing away with shared or single sex facilities. Make them single use facilities. Thu multiples smaller for the use for people individually or with their children etc.

The first point is much harder to resolve, without taking into accounts the problems and prejudice Transgender people face. Over that of people thus abusing this to gain acces to areas known to be safe for victim groups. No one group here, should trump the other on saftey.. They both should have the protection of the law, but not at the expense of the other mate.

So we are left with a difficult conundrum in how to rsolve this issue. On the one hand we are seeking for example to protect the rights of trans people to have them have access to all areas. Even though men are also not allowed within these areas. Yet on the other, we failing to protect the rights of victims of abuse, by making sex/gender basically interchangeable. Based on no more than someone claiming so. Yet many transgender people suffer countless abuse

Where do we draw the line here?

It maybe wrong to look at worse case scenarios, off this, but they have to be taken into consideration here.

Hence instead of forcing either side into being in conflict. We should look to neutralize these situations, which creater these conflicts in the first place. To prevent anyones rights being comrepremised. Which requires people to rethink how they deal and help victims within said spaces. If we look to reolve the problematic issues around this. Then we can look forward to rightfully trans people having the rights they deserve. We start small with victims helping them one to one, until ready to be part of a bigger group. Thus no help center should make people have to share facilities with people they feel at fear with, until they feel comfortable and ready to do so. So start small, to aim big and help these people become one with society again. This means revolutionizing how we help people deal with trauma and conflict. By doing this and removing the areas that are in conflict. We can then make equality a reality for transgender people and not at the expense of others

We need to change the dynamics on how we structured seperate spaces for victims. Like I say start small, one to one, until they are ready to join others, no matter, if male or female. Hence the best way is to eliminate the many obsticles here, that create a conflict within groups of victims. Then its not going to matter, how people self identify based on gender. Though I will add, nobody should also be forced to accept said beliefs, but should never discriminate against them

Sorry, kind of waffled on there mate, but think you know where I am getting at. Hence we need to remove the areas of conflict for society to gain equality for all. Start small, one to one and then aim big.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Jolly good. Not everyone can be a top model, for example.

These are the chromosomes of someone who doesn’t have XX or XY. This person has XXY. Because they have a Y, they have the reproductive organs of a male.

https://genetics.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticist/transgender-intersex-sex-chromosomes

So a man with XXY might feel more female? I just wondered if such tests were done on anyone who wanted a sex change just to see what the reason might be.

I wonder how rare a XYY combination is.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Jolly good. Not everyone can be a top model, for example.

These are the chromosomes of someone who doesn’t have XX or XY. This person has XXY. Because they have a Y, they have the reproductive organs of a male.

https://genetics.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticist/transgender-intersex-sex-chromosomes

How would that stop them being a top model?

I fail to see the relevance of your response to Eilzel, on something we already know?

Again many people intersex, come to decide what sex they are.

Thor wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:


These are the chromosomes of someone who doesn’t have XX or XY. This person has XXY. Because they have a Y, they have the reproductive organs of a male.

https://genetics.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticist/transgender-intersex-sex-chromosomes

How would that stop them being a top model?

I fail to see the relevance of your response to Eilzel, on something we already know?

Again many people intersex, come to decide what sex they are.

My error, it was not eilzel that made that point but rags

Lol, why am I not surpised whe would make such a dumb point

There's nothing dumb about it. There should be routine testing for anyone wanting to change sex to make sure it's not a mental health issue, or a "fashion fad".

Raggamuffin wrote:There's nothing dumb about it. There should be routine testing for anyone wanting to change sex to make sure it's not a mental health issue, or a "fashion fad".

How does being a top model have anything to do with that?

Hence why your point was so dumb, its rather hilarious and both cringe worthy

Thor wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:There's nothing dumb about it. There should be routine testing for anyone wanting to change sex to make sure it's not a mental health issue, or a "fashion fad".

How does being a top model have anything to do with that?

Hence why your point was so dumb, its rather hilarious and both cringe worthy

You really are as thick as mince aren't you? Horatio was clearly replying to my post in the other thread and got mixed up. My post about being a top model was a joke in response to Les saying that trans people should have the right to do any job they choose.

Do you understand?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thor wrote:

How does being a top model have anything to do with that?

Hence why your point was so dumb, its rather hilarious and both cringe worthy

You really are as thick as mince aren't you? Horatio was clearly replying to my post in the other thread and got mixed up. My post about being a top model was a joke in response to Les saying that trans people should have the right to do any job they choose.

Do you understand?

I understand you are easily triggered

Thor wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

You really are as thick as mince aren't you? Horatio was clearly replying to my post in the other thread and got mixed up. My post about being a top model was a joke in response to Les saying that trans people should have the right to do any job they choose.

Do you understand?

I understand you are easily triggered

Do you understand that you're completely thick? I see you're settling in for yet another day of moronic trolling.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thor wrote:

I understand you are easily triggered

Do you understand that you're completely thick? I see you're settling in for yet another day of moronic trolling.

Oh, so now you see yourself as the judge of intelligence of other posters

I do not see you as thick, just insecure and very much needy

Didge wrote:I think one way to look at this, could maybe be through the lens of a fetish.

Gd point. It re-frames the issue, but only if fetish is not tied to gender identification.