US Border guards killing children

Didge wrote:Open the borders to all the worlds poverty population?

Didge wrote:The US would rather they did the right thing and claimed at the border asylum.

Didge wrote:You used to debate with sense, now its politically charged paranoia

Original Quill wrote:

Didge wrote:You used to debate with sense, now its politically charged paranoia

You used to debate with linear logic...well, mostly.  Now you lose yourself in all kinds of bullshit, and never get to a single point or line of reasoning.  I have to take your arguments apart, realign them, and only then address them in cogent fashion.

Also, you have become so wicked and inhumane.  You have no feeling for women who are raped...you think they are all opportunists looking for money.  You have no sympathy for children who are in difficulty...they didn't follow the rules.  You are just a devotee to selfishness and rules.  I hope you never have children.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:So the girl was with her father when she became ill, despite the earlier report? They don't even seem to know the cause of death yet either. It's a bit stupid to bang on about the "right" when the details aren't yet known.

You really should read more closely, Raggs.  The OP gives you the story right up front.  Here is what the OP says:

OP wrote:A 7-year-old girl from Guatemala died of dehydration and shock after she was taken into Border Patrol custody last week for crossing from Mexico into the United States illegally with her father and a large group of migrants along a remote span of New Mexico desert, U.S. Customs and Border Protection said Thursday.

All they give are symptoms: dehydration and shock.  She might have been ill on the trip.  She might have been ill because of the trip.  She might have become ill or sustained injuries after she was in custody.  I don't know if the father is a physician, but the US has physicians at their disposal.  The only thing that is certain is that the US government couldn't diagnosis, let alone take care of a child in their custody.  (At 7-years old, we can be fairly confident that she didn't die of old age.)  We don't know who or what caused her shock.  But clearly, if her death was even in part caused by dehydration, she wasn't given sufficient water.  That is the definition of dehydration.

You do the math.  If she died of dehydration while in custody, it means simply enough that she wasn't given water.  We have a Constitution in this country.  The 8th Amendment of that Constitution provides that the United States shall not subject one to 'cruel and unusual punishment' to those in the care and custody of the government.  It appears that the care and custody of the Border Patrol doesn't allow for keeping a detainee alive, and that is cruel and unusual punishment.

An autopsy was scheduled to determine the cause of death. The results could take weeks.

Raggamuffin wrote:You really should really read more closely Quill.

An autopsy was scheduled to determine the cause of death. The results could take weeks.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:You really should really read more closely Quill.

I heard on the news over the weekend that the body was being sent back to Guatemala.  Good luck.  The findings of a Guatemalan medical examiner will depend on which criminal gang wants to curry favor with the US Government so as to secure future drug shipments.

Why do you think a father undertakes such a dangerous trip with a 7-year old child?  It's because things are even worse back home.  The right never gave the child a chance at life.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:
I heard on the news over the weekend that the body was being sent back to Guatemala.  Good luck.  The findings of a Guatemalan medical examiner will depend on which criminal gang wants to curry favor with the US Government so as to secure future drug shipments.

Why do you think a father undertakes such a dangerous trip with a 7-year old child?  It's because things are even worse back home.  The right never gave the child a chance at life.

It's nothing to do with the "right". Pull yourself together. I guess her father wanted to make more money and he wanted some company during his trip.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

It's nothing to do with the "right". Pull yourself together. I guess her father wanted to make more money and he wanted some company during his trip.

It has everything to do with the "right" insofar as the righty's look for any excuse to demean this dead little child, and the reasons for her being in between a rock and a hard place.  She has become a symbol for everything that is wrong with the perspective of the right.

This death is the consequence of the mean-spirited, inhumanity of conservatives, and the selfish, screw-you, pig-trough slopping they live by.  They are trying to avoid their own callousness by attacking a sick child.  This violates every decent, humane quality we have.

Another way would be to look after others less fortunate than yourself.  But that is antithetical to the ethos of grabbing and pushing.  They've got to measure their wealth by the dead babies they leave behind.

God bless her tiny, innocent soul.

Syl wrote:Whatever anyones politics are I dont think it's right that children should be separated from their parents, no matter where they are held.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Syl wrote:Whatever anyones politics are I dont think it's right that children should be separated from their parents, no matter where they are held.

According to the article Didge posted, she wasn't separated from her father.

Thor wrote:The death has drawn attention to the increasingly perilous routes that Central American migrants traverse to reach the U.S., where some plan to apply for asylum, and to the way migrants are treated once in custody. Jakelin’s family says her father paid a human smuggler to sneak them across the border; asylum wasn’t the plan.

Sadness hangs in the air outside the tiny wooden house with a straw roof, dirt floors, a few bedsheets and a fire pit for cooking where Jakelin used to sleep with her parents and three siblings. The brothers are barefoot, their feet caked with mud and their clothes in tatters. A heart constructed out of wood and wrapped in plastic announces Jakelin’s death.

Grandfather Domingo Caal said the family got by on $5 a day earned harvesting corn and beans. But it wasn’t enough. Jakelin’s father, Nery Caal, decided to migrate with his favorite child to earn money he could send back home. Nery often took his daughter to fish at a nearby river. The long journey north would be an even greater adventure.

The girl leaped with joy when she was told about the trip, Domingo Caal said in Spanish.

The people of San Antonio Secortez, a lush mountain hamlet with 420 inhabitants within the municipality of Raxruha, speak the Mayan Q’eqchi’ language, though most of the men also know Spanish.

Domingo Caal translated for Claudia Maquin as she attempted to describe her daughter’s life while holding back tears. Jakelin liked to climb trees, Claudia said, but she gives few details.

“Every time they ask me what happened to the girl, it hurts me again,” Maquin said.

Members of 13 families from San Antonio Secortez have established homes in the U.S., and community members set off firecrackers to celebrate each time word arrived that one of the townsfolk had made it. The Caals said they believed that Jakelin and Nery would make it, too.

“He was desperate,” Domingo Caal said, explaining that his son borrowed money – using his plot of land as guarantee – to pay for the voyage.

Tekandi Paniagua, the Guatemalan consul in Del Rio, Texas, told The Associated Press that Nery Caal and his daughter took about a week to reach the U.S. border. Paniagua said Caal, 29, told him on Friday that they had been dropped off near the border and walked just an hour and a half to reach it.

They were detained soon afterward along with a large group of other migrants near the Antelope Wells border crossing at about 9:15 p.m. on Dec. 6 in a dry, rugged area flecked with ghost towns and abandoned buildings.

The consul said Caal told him the girl never lacked food or water either before or after they were detained and said he had no complaints about how they were treated.

U.S. Customs and Border Protection said Friday that the girl initially appeared healthy and that an interview raised no signs of distress. Authorities said her father spoke in Spanish to border agents and signed a form indicating she was in good health.

Jakelin’s death drew immediate questions from members of Congress and others about whether more could have been done. There were only four agents working with a group of 163 migrants, including 50 unaccompanied children, and only one bus to take them to the nearest station 94 miles away. The Homeland Security Department’s inspector general has opened an investigation.

That single bus set out on a several-hour trip to the Border Patrol station filled with unaccompanied minors – following protocol – while the daughter and her father waited for it to return. They left about eight hours after being detained.

Caal told the consul that while they were on the bus, his daughter began to feel warm and uncomfortable and began to vomit, and Caal told the driver that his daughter was ill.

Officials said agents radioed ahead to have emergency medical technicians available in Lordsburg. When they arrived, 90 minutes later, she had stopped breathing. Emergency crews revived her, and she was airlifted to an El Paso, Texas, hospital, to which the father was driven.

The girl died at about 12:30 a.m. Dec. 8, roughly 19 hours after she began throwing up on the bus and 27 hours after being apprehended. Officials said she had swelling on her brain and liver failure. An autopsy was scheduled to determine the cause of death. The results could take weeks.

Paniagua said the father, whom he described as a devout evangelical Christian, now appeared to be “more serene, more stable.”


https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/12/16/border-patrol-death-girl-fled-impoverished-guatemala-village/2329713002/

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Instead of continuing to "defend the indefensible" with respect to the current US border patrols, Dodge should face up to a few facts :

Those border guards are not highly trained and specially selected military types, nor are they a well-discliplined, trained and qualified police force like one might expect to find in New York  or California..

Rather, they often appear to largely consist of the dregs of southern and mid-western "white trash" rednecks and 'Klan offspring --  more akin to the stereotypical untrained and uneducated small town deputies, or those partly-trained National Guard volunteers that GWB sent to Iraq to bolster the troops, or maybe the Immigration&Customs people at '3rd World' airports..

And with the more cruel, vindictive and racist among those border guards feeling even more important and effective under Donnie Trumpster's orders these days, where they consider every foreigner reaching the border as the enemy, no matter how young or how ill they may be.

Hmmm, I don't think you can judge anyone for being racist when you use terms like "white trash".

I agree...words can be a superficial indicator.  Racism exists in deeds.  The way to determine who is the racist, is to ask who created 600 years of slavery to segregation.

Syl wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:



According to the article Didge posted, she wasn't separated from her father.

I read...."We’ve got children being needlessly torn from the arms of their parents upon entry to the country and put in separate detainment areas,"

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:

I read...."We’ve got children being needlessly torn from the arms of their parents upon entry to the country and put in separate detainment areas,"

Yes, I was summarizing...expanding from this incident to all the other wrongs that Russo-Republicans have caused at the Mexican border.  That was a reference to the caged children episode:

nicko wrote:Seperated from Parents and put in Cages to keep them safe until Parents found them  ?

BBC wrote:US cannot reunite dozens of child migrants with their parents
By BBC News - July 9, 2018



The Trump administration has said 27 young migrant children are “not eligible for reunification” with their parents, according to a court filing.

Twelve other children’s mothers or fathers have already been deported from the US, said the government.

“Legitimate logistical impediments” are delaying reunions for many of the 102 children under five years old who were taken from parents, US officials say.

Nearly 3,000 children were separated from adults illegally entering the US.

The government was bound by a court order to reunite children aged five and under by 10 July.



The Department of Justice (DoJ) and American Civil Liberties Union’s (ACLU) joint status report on Tuesday detailed why the 27 children cannot yet be reunited with their families.

The parents of 10 children were being held in criminal custody after illegally crossing the US border and had yet to be fully assessed, said the report.

Eight other children’s parents have a “serious criminal history” including narcotics, human smuggling, murder and robbery.

Two other children cannot be reunited with parents because of a possible threat of child abuse.

Five children had been separated from adults who were not their parents.

Another child’s parent is being treated for a communicable illness.

The location of another child’s parent has been unknown for more than a year. Records show both parent and child might even be US citizens.

Some 75 of the 102 separated children have been determined eligible to be reunited with their families, according to the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS).

The government said it had already reunited four of those children with their parents.

It expected to reunite another 34 by the 10 July deadline.

But 12 children cannot be immediately reunited with their families because their parents have already been deported.

For those children, the court filing says they “may be reunified if their parents can be located and if those parents request reunification”.

The ACLU said it accepted that parents in criminal custody cannot be reunited with their children yet.

But it said in many cases “the government is not in compliance with the clear deadline ordered by the Court”.

The ACLU said: “For the [parents] who were deported without their children, [US government officials] have not even tried to contact them or facilitate their reunification by today.”

What happens now?

The government will probably receive an updated order and deadline for reuniting these children.

Trump administration attorneys have requested a “flexible schedule” for reuniting or removing children since “pieces of this process are out of [the government’s] hands”.

The filing notes that the government agencies and ACLU are working together to locate parents in immigration detention facilities.



Cisary Reynaud has not spoken to his daughter since they were separated
At a hearing on Monday in San Diego, California, a federal judge agreed with the government that some cases “will necessitate additional time”.

The government is still mandated to reunite the remaining children aged five to 17 – numbering as many as 2,900 – with their parents by 26 July.

Meanwhile, a federal judge in Los Angeles has rejected the Trump administration’s request to allow the long-term detention of illegal immigrant children.

Under a 1997 agreement, child migrants can only be detained for 20 days.

Judge Dolly Gee said the administration’s request to extend that limit was “a cynical attempt” to shift immigration policymaking to the courts.

Another 10,000 or so migrant children currently in US custody entered the country without parents, undertaking the long and dangerous journey alone or with strangers.

Story originally published at BBC.com

Syl wrote:It was confusing because in the OP you implied this little girl had been separated from her father, taken ill, and sadly died, it seems this wasn't the case.
Many other kids though it seems are held at the border after being separated from their parents, which imo is very wrong.

Washington Post wrote:After being separated from her father, and after about 8 hours of being held in detention, the child started having seizures. When medical staff was finally on the scene, they measured her body temperature at almost 106 degrees.

Syl wrote:It's a tragedy. If there is any justice (though not for this little one) it may make people who are dealing with the immigrants more empathic to their plight.
Regardless of anyones politics, these are human beings.

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:It was confusing because in the OP you implied this little girl had been separated from her father, taken ill, and sadly died, it seems this wasn't the case.
Many other kids though it seems are held at the border after being separated from their parents, which imo is very wrong.

On rereading the Washington Post story, it does indeed say the father and daughter were separated.  So, I guess didge was misleading you...trying to alter the facts a bit.  It seems it is protocol to separate children from parents after taking them into detention:

Washington Post wrote:After being separated from her father, and after about 8 hours of being held in detention, the child started having seizures. When medical staff was finally on the scene, they measured her body temperature at almost 106 degrees.

But that wasn’t the gravamen of my criticism…this time.  My point in telling this story was that the child apparently was not given even a cursory physical examination to determine any health risk.  Apparently, the cretins didn’t care enough to provide water and minimal health care.