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Study says Brexit's toll on UK economy will be 'like losing the city of London' - at best

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Post by Ben Reilly on Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:32 pm

First topic message reminder :

Theresa May’s Brexit deal will have equivalent cost of losing the economic output of Wales or the City of London, research suggests.

The prime minister will plead with MPs to back her deal in a Commons statement on Monday afternoon.

A report by the the National Institute for Economic and Social Research (NIESR) said May’s plan will reduce the value of the UK economy by 3.9% - or £100bn a year by 2030 - compared to staying in the EU.

According to the study, this would be an average cost of more than £1,000 a person.

The NIESR study, which will be launched today by the People’s Vote campaign that wants a second referendum, said a no deal exit would reduce GDP by 5.5 per cent, or £140bn a year.

On Sunday EU leaders endorsed the agreement at an emergency summit in Brussels.

But the prime minister faces an uphill battle to win the vote in the Commons - due to take place in December.

In a statement to parliament today, May will tell MPs there is “not a better deal available”.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-brexit-cost_uk_5bfaed63e4b03b230fa2be6e

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Post by HoratioTarr on Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:13 pm

*THE Ben Reilly* wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

So, you're saying that your sense of patriotic loyalty to the people of Britain overrides your personal life and what would be best for you and your wife?     I don't believe you.   I think you'd jump at the chance and fuck the EU.   I know I would.    

One of the problems with people on the 'left', is their pomposity towards anyone who disagrees with them, or drags their hypocrisy into the light.    When push comes to shove, we'll all do what we feel is right for us as individuals.   Not what's best for the man next door, or the economy or the price of haddock in restricted fishing waters.  

Do you think for one moment the people who made the laws barring you from entering the UK to be with your wife, yet allow other migrants with less to offer than you free movement into our country, give a shit about you?      Get real.

It's funny. When you live by a code like I do, it doesn't really matter whether other people give a shit or not. It's about how you conduct yourself. And the people making the laws but not caring about who it affects are the problem, not me.

That said, if Brexit goes through and it allows me into the UK, of course I'm coming. But I couldn't make that decision, and I would (after gaining citizenship of course) speak out against austerity measures and unreasonable immigration restrictions.

I'm going to raise the money, with my wife, and I'm going to come over and I'm going to tell everyone what a cruel policy it is to keep innocent people who love one another apart because some people think you're running out of room or whatever.

It's not being pompous, HT. It's following what your heart tells you is right.

We've had others on the right who say they have the same basic impulse to look out for the well-being of others, with some differences from people on the left - maybe they focus on their communities, or they prefer a non-governmental approach. I respect that. I can't respect a "me first" attitude in any walk of life, though, not really.

Oh, give over, Ben. We ALL have 'codes' and morals, don't act like you're the only one. Do you think any of us believe it's right to stop two people who love each other from living together? There are many things in life that aren't fair. And that unfairness can affect us all. But don't get on your high horse about how you'd not want to be part of the cruel system of Brexit when you've just admitted you'd come here in a flash if Britain got unshackled from the EU. You backpedalled about that when Eddie told it as it was.
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Post by eddie on Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:40 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
*THE Ben Reilly* wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

I admire your honesty.    



And yet you can't even accept that I'm being just as honest as she is, let alone express any admiration for it.

All this concern for Britain and yet not so long ago you were ranting and raving about the place because it wouldn't let you in?  


Trust me, we are poles apart in this.

Ben would choose the “perceived threat of a nation” (and let’s face it what is the worst that could happen - a recession possibly) over coming here.
Principles over love, basically.

That’s his right, of course, but I would not stay married to him if he did that.

Of course it’s all hypothetical, but hypothetically I’d divorce him quicker than you can say “Brexit!” If he chose that way.

For the record, I don’t think he would if push came to shove.

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Post by Guest on Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:15 pm

*THE Ben Reilly* wrote:
Thor wrote:


Dodged the question

No I didn't, not really, but if my answer wasn't simple enough for you to understand, I wouldn't back leaving the EU regardless of what it meant for me, because I truly believe it will put the UK through hard times.

Don't get me wrong - I would love for the opposite to happen (just as I would love for someone to find conclusive proof that global warming isn't our fault). I don't like worrying.

I once again feel like the righties on here are asking me to "stop pretending" and be selfish. Sorry - that's not me!


Still dodged the question

Its a simple question of what you would choose

Eddie was able to answer this question

And for the record, I want to stay in the EU, I do however respect the wishes of the people, who in the majority wanted out.

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Post by Guest on Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:05 pm

Study says Brexit's toll on UK economy will be 'like losing the city of London' - at best - Page 2 Boe-forecast-chart.jpg?zoom=1


Paul Krugman, who won a Nobel Prize in economics for his work on trade theory, seems the kind of person who might have a credible view on the various scenarios depicted by the very political Mark Carney’s report to the Treasury Committee. Krugman made some points on Twitter last night;



  • The Bank of England just released some very dire scenarios.
  • But their bad-case losses from a no-deal Brexit look extremely high. I mean, 8% of GDP was the kind of estimate we used to make for countries with 150 percent effective rates of protection.
  • I don’t understand how you can get that kind of cost without making some big ad hoc assumptions about productivity or something. And I have worried in all this about motivated reasoning on the part of people who oppose Brexit for the best of reasons.
  • As best I can tell, the big results depend on assumed relations between trade/FDI flows and productivity. It’s really important to understand that this channel does not follow from basic trade theory and comparative advantage; it’s a black-box story.
  • What we have are correlations between trade and investment flows and productivity that don’t really follow from standard models. Are these causal? There is surely room for skepticism. Yet that seems to be the big driver of the whole thing. So I’m worried.
  • Again, I’m anti-Brexit, and have no doubt that it will make Britain poorer. And the BoE could be right about the magnitude. But they’ve really gone pretty far out on a limb here.


Krugman is right, the UK is a globalised world class advanced industrial economy, not a third world small economy easily buffeted by adverse changes. The Treasury and the Bank of England were completely wrong in 2016 – predicting a recession and massive unemployment that never came. They are wrong this time too.


https://order-order.com/2018/11/29/economist-won-nobel-prize-trade-theory-sceptical-carneys-forecasts/

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Post by HoratioTarr on Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:49 pm

eddie wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

All this concern for Britain and yet not so long ago you were ranting and raving about the place because it wouldn't let you in?  


Trust me, we are poles apart in this.

Ben would choose the “perceived threat of a nation” (and let’s face it what is the worst that could happen - a recession possibly) over coming here.
Principles over love, basically.

That’s his right, of course, but I would not stay married to him if he did that.

Of course it’s all hypothetical, but hypothetically I’d divorce him quicker than you can say “Brexit!” If he chose that way.

For the record, I don’t think he would if push came to shove.


I don't he would either. I think one day you guys will be together as you want to be. Brexit or no.
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Post by Ben Reilly on Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:23 pm

Okay, let's set a whole shitload of things straight.

I did unequivocally say that I wouldn't choose Brexit, even if it meant it was easier for me to get into England.

The reason I said this is because I'm convinced Brexit will (or would) create a massive economic downturn that would cause hundreds of thousands or millions of British people to suffer.

(And I don't think that because "the lefties" told me to think that - I've read about it and that is my conclusion.)

I don't hate the British, despite the government's stupid and cruel law that makes it so hard for me to move there. Half of my family is British now, and I've made friends there as well. I wouldn't wish misery for the British members of this forum, either.

So there it is - given the choice between making it easier for me to move to England and be with my family, but the British suffer, and taking the current hard-as-hell road to legal status, but the nation doesn't suffer, I pick the latter.

I don't appreciate any insinuation that I love my family less because I don't want to see their country (and my future country) suffer.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:23 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:


Denial alert to this is about predicitions, where nobody can predict such a situation or how buisness will act

A couple have made claims, that is it they will leave the UK

You simple want to believe in fairy tales on this, which is your choice

There is no denial, I never said, nor did others, that there would be a noticeably negative impact after we formally leave. We haven't formally left yet. But when Japanese car makers suggest pulling out if the gateway closes people should take notice.

It is delusional to think losing free trade with the EU will have no effect on UK businesses.



Its not "free" trade... it costs us a fortune!!!


And it costs us our democracy... which is a priceless asset that we should never surrender to anyone for anything!!!




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Post by Guest on Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:10 am

*THE Ben Reilly* wrote:Okay, let's set a whole shitload of things straight.

I did unequivocally say that I wouldn't choose Brexit, even if it meant it was easier for me to get into England.

The reason I said this is because I'm convinced Brexit will (or would) create a massive economic downturn that would cause hundreds of thousands or millions of British people to suffer.

(And I don't think that because "the lefties" told me to think that - I've read about it and that is my conclusion.)

I don't hate the British, despite the government's stupid and cruel law that makes it so hard for me to move there. Half of my family is British now, and I've made friends there as well. I wouldn't wish misery for the British members of this forum, either.

So there it is - given the choice between making it easier for me to move to England and be with my family, but the British suffer, and taking the current hard-as-hell road to legal status, but the nation doesn't suffer, I pick the latter.

I don't appreciate any insinuation that I love my family less because I don't want to see their country (and my future country) suffer.


Nobody actually did. That is simple your own paranoia

I simple stated, that you dodged the question Horatio asked and that Eddie did answer

Everyone has in fact been very supportive of you

That does not mean, you are then excused getting out of difficult questions posed to you and neither should you take them personally

The worst aspect of all of this, is your wierd view we are all going to suffer?

Based on what facts?

Do you not think again you are being a tad paranoid on that?

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Post by nicko on Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:24 am

Ben, you live in Texas, how would you like it if Mexico made your laws and told you what you could and could not do ?
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Post by Eilzel on Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:04 am

nicko wrote:Ben, you live in Texas,  how would you like it if Mexico made your laws and told you what you could and could not do ?

That's not really a fair comparison, is it Wink

Fair would be a kind of NAU (North American Union) which included the USA, Canada, Mexico, Jamaica, Cuba etc., which then set trade laws for all to follow. Laws which America would be involved in the creation of, along with the others, and the US then having to go along with them.

See, not so bad when looked at like that, is it Smile

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:48 pm

nicko wrote:Ben, you live in Texas,  how would you like it if Mexico made your laws and told you what you could and could not do ?

So what is the absolute worst law that the EU has come out with that British citizens have to follow?

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:55 pm

Eilzel wrote:
nicko wrote:Ben, you live in Texas,  how would you like it if Mexico made your laws and told you what you could and could not do ?

That's not really a fair comparison, is it Wink

Fair would be a kind of NAU (North American Union) which included the USA, Canada, Mexico, Jamaica, Cuba etc., which then set trade laws for all to follow. Laws which America would be involved in the creation of, along with the others, and the US then having to go along with them.

See, not so bad when looked at like that, is it Smile

And actually the United States is kind of like that anyway. Sure, we mostly speak the same language, but the country is about the size of Europe and has over 300 million people.

There are members of my government who represent a state that's nearly 4,000 miles from me, and they have a say in making laws that affect me.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:59 pm

Thor wrote:
*THE Ben Reilly* wrote:Okay, let's set a whole shitload of things straight.

I did unequivocally say that I wouldn't choose Brexit, even if it meant it was easier for me to get into England.

The reason I said this is because I'm convinced Brexit will (or would) create a massive economic downturn that would cause hundreds of thousands or millions of British people to suffer.

(And I don't think that because "the lefties" told me to think that - I've read about it and that is my conclusion.)

I don't hate the British, despite the government's stupid and cruel law that makes it so hard for me to move there. Half of my family is British now, and I've made friends there as well. I wouldn't wish misery for the British members of this forum, either.

So there it is - given the choice between making it easier for me to move to England and be with my family, but the British suffer, and taking the current hard-as-hell road to legal status, but the nation doesn't suffer, I pick the latter.

I don't appreciate any insinuation that I love my family less because I don't want to see their country (and my future country) suffer.


Nobody actually did. That is simple your own paranoia

I simple stated, that you dodged the question Horatio asked and that Eddie did answer

Everyone has in fact been very supportive of you

That does not mean, you are then excused getting out of difficult questions posed to you and neither should you take them personally

The worst aspect of all of this, is your wierd view we are all going to suffer?

Based on what facts?

Do you not think again you are being a tad paranoid on that?

Has economic recession not been predicted as a result of Brexit? Doesn't that cause suffering?

Yes on both questions.

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Post by nicko on Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:07 pm

They were predicting that when we voted to come out, the opposite has happened !
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Post by HoratioTarr on Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:19 pm

*THE Ben Reilly* wrote:
nicko wrote:Ben, you live in Texas,  how would you like it if Mexico made your laws and told you what you could and could not do ?

So what is the absolute worst law that the EU has come out with that British citizens have to follow?

The European Water Framework Directive (EWF) into UK law in 2000.   No more dredging and embedding our rivers.   Caused massive flooding in Cockermouth.  People lost their homes and livelihoods.

Actually, I think that our Government used that as an excuse not to dredge..but it still had an impact.
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Post by nicko on Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:49 pm

French and Spain dredging our waters for fish.
European Court saying what laws we can implement and what we can't.
There would not be room to list all the crap the EU force on us !
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Post by Guest on Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:15 pm

*THE Ben Reilly* wrote:

Has economic recession not been predicted as a result of Brexit? Doesn't that cause suffering?

Yes on both questions.


A recession was predicted after the referendum, with huge jobs loses.

They were wrong


Goldman Sachs: Recession by 2017
As the old saying goes, economists predict fifteen of the next two recessions. Mr S feels it has never been more adequately applied than to Goldman Sachs’ note, which declared the British economy would go into recession by early 2017. (Goldman had donated £500,000 to the Remain campaign.) Credit Suisse predicted a 1pc fall in GDP and Nomura a 1.3pc fall. Chris Giles, the normally brilliant economics editor of the FT, also predicted recession and started a weekly series of economic indicators in his newspaper which he thought would point to this recession. Instead, economic growth actually accelerated: growth was 1.4pc.

HM Treasury: Half a million job losses
Whilst there were many incorrect takes after the referendum, none quite match the Government’s Project Fear centrepiece: HM Treasury analysis:the long-term economic impact of EU membership and the alternatives.

In the milder of its two disaster scenarios, HM Treasury predicted the UK would slide into recession, “unemployment would increase by around 500,000 with all regions experiencing a rise in rise in the number of people out of work”. It felt able to be very specific: 24,000 job losses in Wales, 43,000 in Scotland, etc. Instead, more than half a million jobs have been created – across every UK region and unemployment has been forced to a 43-year low. Still, at least the Government didn’t bluff an emergency budget! Mr S is in no doubt the Treasury has taken its error on the chin, and has now learnt the lesson of its anti-Brexit bias

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/06/project-fear-two-years-on-six-brexit-predictions-that-failed-to-come-true/

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Post by eddie on Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:01 pm

How does one live with the attitude “this might happen!” “What if that happens?” “This media source says this!”

What a bore. Most things that the media reports on are over-dramatised, a holler to the scared.

Let’s just see. Let’s just panic when and if we have to.
Let’s see what the “worst” can do.

IF there is a “worst”, of course. Might just be a “different”.

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Post by Guest on Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:06 pm

eddie wrote:How does one live with the attitude “this might happen!”  “What if that happens?” “This media source says this!”

What a bore. Most things that the media reports on are over-dramatised, a holler to the scared.

Let’s just see. Let’s just panic when and if we have to.
Let’s see what the “worst” can do.

IF there is a “worst”, of course. Might just be a “different”.

How many times has this country pulled through when in massive debt after two world wars and a number of recessions?

Every single time Eddie and hence why you are right.

As I doubt the worst predicted will be as bad as people claim

The EU certainly still needs to trade with the UK, which means they will also be effected

What this country needs at this time is someone like Churchill, who would never be blackmailed into bowing down

He would say it as it is

No deal and place the emphasis onto those in the EU trying to scare the British public

He would allow the ticking time bomb play they have used back at them and watch them sweat. As he would have played his poker hand and would not be bluffing. He would be calling their bluff and they would lose and give in. They are trying to cower the British into submission and its really going to backfire on the EU to me

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Post by Guest on Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:31 pm

I will add. I think, our best future is in partnership with the EU, but on a bases that each nation is able to Govern and make its own laws. That partnership should never be based on a collective view on what a majority of people never living here think. IT should be based on a collective view on how we best trade with each other. How we should pool our resources on crime, security etc. It should never be, how they dictate, how we should live our lives. As that should be down to the populous of that nation.

Thus to claim for example that people should take a quota on refugees. Never understanding, that a country cannot ever simple ever hope to cope with such an influx of people. Is sheer insanity. As it is with free movement. When those less well off will always move to the smallnumber of countries that have systems that are better off for people. That means a small number of these countries will always bear the brunt of an influx, that they will never be able or hope to cope with. IT means those living there already, struggle further, with such an influx. As there is an imbalance on levels of income between the EU nations.

Hence of course people will want to go to the nations better off and this creates a negative effect on those seeking work, housing, hospitals etc. In other words infurstructure, that will never ever hope to cope with such levels of migrations. It has to be a controlled, or none of the richest nations, will ever cope and it will always cause and create a view of discontent and inadvertantly help again cause the rise of either the Far right and left.

This is why the policies at present of the EU are creating a situation, that could possible lead to another european war. There has to be a balance and this is simple not happenning and why we are at a crossroads, not dissimilar to pre world war one. With a number of the powerful European nations ganging up on others.

The view is to control them. This then leads to more discontent. When you push unfavoiable terms on people, its always going to have people push back on this. That is not progression, but totaltiarianism. What is worse is its leading nations to the extremes of left and right in Europe, that will in the end lead to war

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Post by Guest on Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:37 pm

Thor wrote:I will add. I think, our best future is in partnership with the EU, but on a bases that each nation is able to Govern and make its own laws. That partnership should never be based on a collective view on what a majority of people never living here think. IT should be based on a collective view on how we best trade with each other. How we should pool our resources on crime, security etc. It should never be, how they dictate, how we should live our lives. As that should be down to the populous of that nation.

Thus to claim for example that people should take a quota on refugees. Never understanding, that a country cannot ever simple ever hope to cope with such an influx of people. Is sheer insanity. As it is with free movement. When those less well off will always move to the smallnumber of countries that have systems that are better off for people. That means a small number of these countries will always bear the brunt of an influx, that they will never be able or hope to cope with. IT means those living there already, struggle further, with such an influx. As there is an imbalance on levels of income between the EU nations.

Hence of course people will want to go to the nations better off and this creates a negative effect on those seeking work, housing, hospitals etc. In other words infurstructure, that will never ever hope to cope with such levels of migrations. It has to be a controlled, or none of the richest nations, will ever cope and it will always cause and create a view of discontent and inadvertantly help again cause the rise of either the Far right and left.

This is why the policies at present of the EU are creating a situation, that could possible lead to another european war. There has to be a balance and this is simple not happenning and why we are at a crossroads, not dissimilar to pre world war one. With a number of the powerful European nations ganging up on others.

The view is to control them. This then leads to more discontent. When you push unfavorable terms on people, its always going to have people push back on this. That is not progression, but totaltiarianism. What is worse is its leading nations to the extremes of left and right in Europe, that will in the end lead to war


If you think I am wrong. then none of you understand how the unfavorable terms of the versailles treaty was used by Hitler and the 1929 Wall street crash to gain power. Before the crash, the Nazi's were insignificant. Pushing a view to polarize the UK, will allow the rise of the Far right or Far left in this country. That is the path the EU is creating

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Post by Guest on Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:28 pm

One last point

I think you tackle poverty at its core in countries that suffer poverty and help end poverty there. Placing all people poor into a small geographic area. Will never end poverty but instead help create discontent and increase discrimination and prejudice. What you should do is ensure you help better the lives of people worse off. That you help end the suffering that they endure daily That is why I have no time for bleeding heart liberals, that have no comprehension of the suffering that people face when in daily lives facing mass terrorism and war. As they do in places like Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, Sudan, Iraq etc. Their view is to pander to this with a view. That we should sit on the sidelines. And thus countless more suffer and die.

Well we have with  Syria, Yemen and Sudan and how has that panned out? Far worse than when we did intervene. I mean if the view is that we should not intervene, based on a view, that it might increase a minimal risk to our lives with terrorism. Then the left has lost all calling to claim they stand for the oppressed. As they would rather watch them sit and suffer. Based on a view, this would cause them potential harm if we intervened. Negating the fact, that if we solve their issues and empower them to be able to rule democratically. It would make people globally safe also in the long term. The reality is with the left. They hate to take the long hard role of getting involved. In combating these problems. They think throwing money into this is the cure.

Its not.

We have to show true support to people really suffering and yet the left want to shy away from this and claim. Us helping people surpressed is somehow a cause to terrorism here. When this same terrorism has gone on unabated since the foundation of islam, Judaism and Christianity itself.

You tackle problems at their cores but the left want to view this as causing far more multiple problems. Its why the US lost the Vietnam war. As they are never able to stay the cause and that their tacitics were driven by emotions and not reason through the media. When you do the right thing, you are able to dispell problems. In Vietnam, the US did many wrongs, but nobody talks about the many wrongs that the Vietconq did. There is a massive silence on this and many suffered due to this idicoy. Its what then led to a third of the Cambodian population being murdered later on through the crimes of Pol Pot.

Those that claim to stand for progression and based on leftist attidtudes. They have the worst ethos on this. They happilly stand with a pacifist view watching millions suffer and do nothing.

Thank goodness for our ancestors that never held that view

They provided us with an opportunity of freedom

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Post by HoratioTarr on Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:33 pm

eddie wrote:How does one live with the attitude “this might happen!”  “What if that happens?” “This media source says this!”

What a bore. Most things that the media reports on are over-dramatised, a holler to the scared.

Let’s just see. Let’s just panic when and if we have to.
Let’s see what the “worst” can do.

IF there is a “worst”, of course. Might just be a “different”.

Dead right. I mean, look what happens when we get a skiff of snow. Lockdown. Siege mentality. Panic buying. Media meltdown.
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Post by eddie on Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:07 am

I don’t play to mass hysteria. It’s mostly manufactured to make people buy the paper, or click on their link or buy into their reporting.

Best way to find something out: Sit back and watch.
See it, hear it, touch it, feel it, smell it. Experience it for YOURSELF.

And if the “worst” happens? Deal with it. Things have to change. The Phoenix has to burn to rise again, that’s nature’s way...when did we become so afraid of just letting things happen and trusting that people will find a way?

We always find a way. We are just scared to let the things pan out.

Why?

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Post by Eilzel on Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:30 am

eddie wrote:I don’t play to mass hysteria. It’s mostly manufactured to make people buy the paper, or click on their link or buy into their reporting.

Best way to find something out: Sit back and watch.
See it, hear it, touch it, feel it, smell it. Experience it for YOURSELF.

And if the “worst” happens? Deal with it. Things have to change. The Phoenix has to burn to rise again, that’s nature’s way...when did we become so afraid of just letting things happen and trusting that people will find a way?

We always find a way. We are just scared to let the things pan out.

Why?

We voted Leave because of hysteria, why are we only happy to let things pan out now? Why couldn't we just not have bothered with the vote in the first place?

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:30 am

We voted leave because we never agreed to give away our democracy, and cos we want it back!!!


Why are you so against democracy...!!!???


You sound very much like a supporter.of dictatorship... And with all the arrogant attitude that comes with it, being "bollocks to the people"... and "who are they to decide what they do/don't want?"...!!!


When really the question is... who the fuck are you or anyone else, to think that you are so important, as to try to dictate everything to everyone else...!!!???


And to think that you really try to see yourself as being some sort of social justice warrior, as someone who is so fair and equal etc, that all votes count equally, and a champion of democracy against any form of dictatorship...!?


Yet you are advocating the theft of the UK democracy... And in favour of a dictatorship... And advocating a refusal to allow the British people to have any chance of restoring our democracy...!!!


I think you should have a long hard look at yourself, and think about what you really are...



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Post by Eilzel on Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:23 am

Tommy Monk wrote:We voted leave because we never agreed to give away our democracy, and cos we want it back!!!


Why are you so against democracy...!!!???


You sound very much like a supporter.of dictatorship... And with all the arrogant attitude that comes with it, being "bollocks to the people"... and "who are they to decide what they do/don't want?"...!!!


When really the question is... who the fuck are you or anyone else, to think that you are so important, as to try to dictate everything to everyone else...!!!???


And to think that you really try to see yourself as being some sort of social justice warrior, as someone who is so fair and equal etc, that all votes count equally, and a champion of democracy against any form of dictatorship...!?


Yet you are advocating the theft of the UK democracy... And in favour of a dictatorship... And advocating a refusal to allow the British people to have any chance of restoring our democracy...!!!


I think you should have a long hard look at yourself, and think about what you really are...



I think you should calm down and have yourself a nice cup of tea Wink

1) The EU is NOT a dictatorship. It IS way too bureaucratic, even I'll agree on that, and it IS in need of some internal reform. But with MEPs and people involved from all across the EU nations (including the UK) and only existing by the consent of the majority in each member state - of which any member can leave if their electorate forced it (as is happening in the UK). In NO WAY does this constitute a dictatorship in which one a few people would 'dictate' policy for the entire union and with no way for any member to leave.

2) After the initial vote, while I didn't like the result, I supported the fact we had to find a good deal but that a second referendum would be unfair since we'd already had our say.

3) However, after 2.5 years of failed negotiations and the options of either a) an awful deal that would see us in an even worse situation than ever, or b) no deal and economic turmoil along with drastically diminished standing in world affairs, and with Brexit politicians running to the hills, I think NOW it is worth a second vote since NO ONE predicted this outcome back in 2016. Knowing what we know now, a second vote on the final outcome is not unreasonable. That is democratic, and regardless of what the loudest anti-remainers rant about, this would be a FINAL vote, with the outcome having to be accepted even by the most ardent Remainers. There would be no third, fourth vote etc (the usually come back from those who don't listen to reason).

4) If you'd asked all who voted leave in 2016 if we'd have NO free trade with the EU after Brexit, some would not have voted that way. If you'd asked all who voted leave in 2016 if we'd still be tied to EU trade regulations and still pay in without having a say, some would not have voted that way. And yes, if you'd told all who voted leave in 2016 that we would NOT save all that money and reinvest in the NHS after all, some would not have voted that way. The circumstances have changed enough to warrant a second and FINAL vote.

Nowhere here do I support dictatorship, that is just delusional hyperbole created by decades of tabloid RW media drivel being regurgitated, as it has been for years and why we are where we are now.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:58 am



The EU is a dictatorship... And the British people have never consented to any of it!


And it's not tea that I need... it's a reversal of the labotamy that you need, if you really think the way you do...!


You are either deliberately lying... or you are completely ignorant of the facts...!?


Who the fuck are you, to be trying to tell us leave voters, why it was we voted leave...?


It's people like you, who don't really know what it's all about, which is why you still bleat on about remaining!!!


It's people like me, who don't give a fuck about what some twats had written on the side of a bus, and who really know the importance of the democratic sovereignty of the British people, and who recognise that it is not something that we have ever agreed to (or will ever agree to) relinquish!!!



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Post by Eilzel on Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:03 am

Tommy Monk wrote:

The EU is a dictatorship... And the British people have never consented to any of it!


And it's not tea that I need... it's a reversal of the labotamy that you need, if you really think the way you do...!


You are either deliberately lying... or you are completely ignorant of the facts...!?


Who the fuck are you, to be trying to tell us leave voters, why it was we voted leave...?


It's people like you, who don't really know what it's all about, which is why you still bleat on about remaining!!!


It's people like me, who don't give a fuck about what some twats had written on the side of a bus, and who really know the importance of the democratic sovereignty of the British people, and who recognise that it is not something that we have ever agreed to (or will ever agree to) relinquish!!!



I'm not telling anyone why they voted, plenty of Leavers themselves have come forward and said they'd have voted, or would vote, differently knowing the results. Not all, but some, maybe enough.

And how EXACTLY is the EU a dictatorship? (As in, similar in governance to Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, North Korea, Fascist Italy etc...)?

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:37 am



No... more like loads of remainers pretending to be leave voters, popping up and waffling about how they have 'changed their minds'...


It's all a load of bollocks... 2.5 years of deliberate delays coupled with deliberate wall to wall project fear 2.0...


Designed to scupper the democratic decision of the British people to restore our democracy from the theft of it that we have seen since 1973...!


And you really need an answer to your last question...!!!???


Which just shows how truly ignorant you are about it all...!!!


And Les... please believe me when I say, I really don't mean that to be an off the cuff type of generic insult...


You really are showing your ignorance... And if you really knew the details... you would be supporting the restoration of the UK democracy from the theft of it by the EU, aided and abetted by corrupt UK politicians, over the years...



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Post by Eilzel on Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:00 am

Tommy Monk wrote:

No... more like loads of remainers pretending to be leave voters, popping up and waffling about how they have 'changed their minds'...


It's all a load of bollocks... 2.5 years of deliberate delays coupled with deliberate wall to wall project fear 2.0...


Designed to scupper the democratic decision of the British people to restore our democracy from the theft of it that we have seen since 1973...!


And you really need an answer to your last question...!!!???


Which just shows how truly ignorant you are about it all...!!!


And Les... please believe me when I say, I really don't mean that to be an off the cuff type of generic insult...


You really are showing your ignorance... And if you really knew the details... you would be supporting the restoration of the UK democracy from the theft of it by the EU, aided and abetted by corrupt UK politicians, over the years...



Bollocks. Could member states leave the Soviet Union? No. Can people vote for different members of the government in North Korea? No. Did representatives of territories of the Nazi Empire get a say in how they were governed from Berlin? No.

With the EU the answer is YES to all the questions. So not a dictatorship - unless you don't know what dictatorship means (wouldn't be the first time you have failed to know the meaning of a political term...).

You are simply defining democracy your own way. Watched too much Braveheart, perhaps? Laughing

And if you think Remainers pretend to be Leavers then you really are more of a deluded conspiracy nut than I thought (not an insult btw, along with your views on the moon landings, climate change, relentless screaming of photoshopping, it is clear you are often either a) pretty detached from reality, or b) so full of your own arguments you've forgotten what sense looks like).

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Post by Guest on Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:27 am

Eilzel wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

No... more like loads of remainers pretending to be leave voters, popping up and waffling about how they have 'changed their minds'...


It's all a load of bollocks... 2.5 years of deliberate delays coupled with deliberate wall to wall project fear 2.0...


Designed to scupper the democratic decision of the British people to restore our democracy from the theft of it that we have seen since 1973...!


And you really need an answer to your last question...!!!???


Which just shows how truly ignorant you are about it all...!!!


And Les... please believe me when I say, I really don't mean that to be an off the cuff type of generic insult...


You really are showing your ignorance... And if you really knew the details... you would be supporting the restoration of the UK democracy from the theft of it by the EU, aided and abetted by corrupt UK politicians, over the years...



Bollocks. Could member states leave the Soviet Union? No. Can people vote for different members of the government in North Korea? No. Did representatives of territories of the Nazi Empire get a say in how they were governed from Berlin? No.

With the EU the answer is YES to all the questions. So not a dictatorship - unless you don't know what dictatorship means (wouldn't be the first time you have failed to know the meaning of a political term...).

You are simply defining democracy your own way. Watched too much Braveheart, perhaps? Laughing



Can people vote for all MEP's elected?

No

Hence its not a democracy and like the UN, it can have other nations gang up on others to force through laws and policis, that the majority of that nation do not agree with

That is very much like a dictatorship and very much authoritarian

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Post by Eilzel on Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:33 am

Thor wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

No... more like loads of remainers pretending to be leave voters, popping up and waffling about how they have 'changed their minds'...


It's all a load of bollocks... 2.5 years of deliberate delays coupled with deliberate wall to wall project fear 2.0...


Designed to scupper the democratic decision of the British people to restore our democracy from the theft of it that we have seen since 1973...!


And you really need an answer to your last question...!!!???


Which just shows how truly ignorant you are about it all...!!!


And Les... please believe me when I say, I really don't mean that to be an off the cuff type of generic insult...


You really are showing your ignorance... And if you really knew the details... you would be supporting the restoration of the UK democracy from the theft of it by the EU, aided and abetted by corrupt UK politicians, over the years...



Bollocks. Could member states leave the Soviet Union? No. Can people vote for different members of the government in North Korea? No. Did representatives of territories of the Nazi Empire get a say in how they were governed from Berlin? No.

With the EU the answer is YES to all the questions. So not a dictatorship - unless you don't know what dictatorship means (wouldn't be the first time you have failed to know the meaning of a political term...).

You are simply defining democracy your own way. Watched too much Braveheart, perhaps? Laughing



Can people vote for all MEP's elected?

No

Hence its not a democracy and like the UN, it can have other nations gang up on others to force through laws and policis, that the majority of that nation do not agree with

That is very much like a dictatorship and very much authoritarian

That's craziness, I don't get to vote on all the MPs in Parliament either, can I consider myself now living under a Tory dictatorship? No, of course not.

The problem is a little nation mentality, where we want to break free from some 'supposed' evil union. Unsurprising, from people who grew up in a time when the Soviet Union still posed a credible threat to world peace. But we are past that now. Big economic blocks are the way forward. If people still hark back to a glorious past all that will happen is they'll get left behind.

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Post by Guest on Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:39 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:


Can people vote for all MEP's elected?

No

Hence its not a democracy and like the UN, it can have other nations gang up on others to force through laws and policis, that the majority of that nation do not agree with

That is very much like a dictatorship and very much authoritarian

That's craziness, I don't get to vote on all the MPs in Parliament either, can I consider myself now living under a Tory dictatorship? No, of course not.

The problem is a little nation mentality, where we want to break free from some 'supposed' evil union. Unsurprising, from people who grew up in a time when the Soviet Union still posed a credible threat to world peace. But we are past that now. Big economic blocks are the way forward. If people still hark back to a glorious past all that will happen is they'll get left behind.

Actually the problem is people like yourself

Areas vote for a person in that area, but all within the Uk, not the whole of the EU and its based on a party collectivelly.. Hence we have no say on who is elected there, but they do in the US, as they vote all for a leader. Hence the united states of Europe is a dictatorship, which has again nations gang up on others.

The Eu will only work when its based on trade, security, not laws governing other nations

So big economic blocks are the way forward, that do not dictate how others lives should be led

That is what you fail to grasp

I grew up when it was still a threat and even went to countries still under communism when I played in Orchestras.

So you really do have no idea

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Post by Eilzel on Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:43 am

Thor wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:


Can people vote for all MEP's elected?

No

Hence its not a democracy and like the UN, it can have other nations gang up on others to force through laws and policis, that the majority of that nation do not agree with

That is very much like a dictatorship and very much authoritarian

That's craziness, I don't get to vote on all the MPs in Parliament either, can I consider myself now living under a Tory dictatorship? No, of course not.

The problem is a little nation mentality, where we want to break free from some 'supposed' evil union. Unsurprising, from people who grew up in a time when the Soviet Union still posed a credible threat to world peace. But we are past that now. Big economic blocks are the way forward. If people still hark back to a glorious past all that will happen is they'll get left behind.

Actually the problem is people like yourself

Areas vote for a person in that area, but all within the Uk, not the whole of the EU and its based on a party collectivelly.. Hence we have no say on who is elected there, but they do in the US, as they vote all for a leader. Hence the united states of Europe is a dictatorship, which has again nations gang up on others.

The Eu will only work when its based on trade, security, not laws governing other nations

So big economic blocks are the way forward, that do not dictate how others lives should be led

That is what you fail to grasp

I grew up when it was still a threat and even went to countries still under communism when I played in Orchestras.

So you really do have no idea

Sounds lovely Smile

Of course, communism does not exist in the European Union, so it is not the same, and therefore not relevant, which was the point I was making.

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Post by Guest on Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:08 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:

Actually the problem is people like yourself

Areas vote for a person in that area, but all within the Uk, not the whole of the EU and its based on a party collectivelly.. Hence we have no say on who is elected there, but they do in the US, as they vote all for a leader. Hence the united states of Europe is a dictatorship, which has again nations gang up on others.

The Eu will only work when its based on trade, security, not laws governing other nations

So big economic blocks are the way forward, that do not dictate how others lives should be led

That is what you fail to grasp

I grew up when it was still a threat and even went to countries still under communism when I played in Orchestras.

So you really do have no idea

Sounds lovely Smile

Of course, communism does not exist in the European Union, so it is not the same, and therefore not relevant, which was the point I was making.


|Its actually very similar

Who voted in the Uk for the EU presidency

Who in this country voted for people to be on the European Commision?

Who's sole purpose is to push an agenda of EU before their own nations.

They are the ones that bring forward changes in laws and people in individual countries have no say on this

I mean have you not been watching how and why the far right have gained in popularity off this?

Why do you think that has happened?

What we have now is a block group of nations imposing their views onto single nations, very much like Communism.
This is starting to fragment, thankfully. Some twat from Luxemburg, should not be dictating how we live our lives

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Post by Eilzel on Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:20 pm

Thor wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:

Actually the problem is people like yourself

Areas vote for a person in that area, but all within the Uk, not the whole of the EU and its based on a party collectivelly.. Hence we have no say on who is elected there, but they do in the US, as they vote all for a leader. Hence the united states of Europe is a dictatorship, which has again nations gang up on others.

The Eu will only work when its based on trade, security, not laws governing other nations

So big economic blocks are the way forward, that do not dictate how others lives should be led

That is what you fail to grasp

I grew up when it was still a threat and even went to countries still under communism when I played in Orchestras.

So you really do have no idea

Sounds lovely Smile

Of course, communism does not exist in the European Union, so it is not the same, and therefore not relevant, which was the point I was making.


|Its actually very similar

Who voted in the Uk for the EU presidency

Who in this country voted for people to be on the European Commision?

Who's sole purpose is to push an agenda of EU before their own nations.

They are the ones that bring forward changes in laws and people in individual countries have no say on this

I mean have you not been watching how and why the far right have gained in popularity off this?

Why do you think that has happened?

What we have now is a block group of nations imposing their views onto single nations, very much like Communism.
This is starting to fragment, thankfully. Some twat from Luxemburg, should not be dictating how we live our lives

Do you think Scotland should break from the Union then? After all, why should Robbie MacDonald have to put up with laws dictated from some twat in Westminster?

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Post by Guest on Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:26 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:


|Its actually very similar

Who voted in the Uk for the EU presidency

Who in this country voted for people to be on the European Commision?

Who's sole purpose is to push an agenda of EU before their own nations.

They are the ones that bring forward changes in laws and people in individual countries have no say on this

I mean have you not been watching how and why the far right have gained in popularity off this?

Why do you think that has happened?

What we have now is a block group of nations imposing their views onto single nations, very much like Communism.
This is starting to fragment, thankfully. Some twat from Luxemburg, should not be dictating how we live our lives

Do you think Scotland should break from the Union then? After all, why should Robbie MacDonald have to put up with laws dictated from some twat in Westminster?


If Scotland wants to go their own way and this is the choice of the majority of the people

Good luck to them

That is self determination

I would rather they fuck off anyway, as we end up paying more to them. We would be better off without them... Laughing

The reality is the majority did not vote to have a Scotchexit

Hence I respect the populous decision for them to remain

See how that works?

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:32 pm



The EU dictates 75% of our laws/rules/regulations... And wants to control 100% as well as making us have the euro as well as controlling our army... it is run by the commission, none of whom are elected... meps are not allowed to propose any legislation, only the commission bring this in and the meps are just rubber stampers of it..


When did the British people ever agree to any of it???

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Post by Guest on Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:55 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

The EU dictates 75% of our laws/rules/regulations... And wants to control 100% as well as making us have the euro as well as controlling our army... it is run by the commission, none of whom are elected... meps are not allowed to propose any legislation, only the commission bring this in and the meps are just rubber stampers of it..


When did the British people ever agree to any of it???

That is also bullshit

Show me the 75% of laws that the Uk disagrees with?

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:52 pm

And Les... Westminster is full of mps from every part of the country... including scotland... they all have a vote on everything...


Although, while we are in the EU, 75% of all laws/rules/regulations are dictated to us by the EU...

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Post by Guest on Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:54 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:And Les... Westminster is full of mps from every part of the country... including scotland... they all have a vote on everything...


Although, while we are in the EU, 75% of all laws/rules/regulations are dictated to us by the EU...

Man I hate being piggy in the middle, but how badly did you avoid that question

What percentage of those laws does the Uk disagree with?

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Post by nicko on Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:58 pm

I don't know about 75% , but I% would be too much !
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Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:59 pm

Dodge... I am not avoiding anything you bell end... you made your post while I was already making my earlier post...








EU-Justice Commissioner Viviane Reding

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Post by Guest on Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:02 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Dodge... I am not avoiding anything you bell end... you made your post while I was already making my earlier post...








EU-Justice Commissioner Viviane Reding

So your view in based on you being a complete imbcille, listening to hearsay

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what-proportion-influenced-eu/

Now the problem with you Tommy is you are no better than a sheep

I respect the referendum, but you are a fuckwit when it comes to facts and here even more you prove you have the intellect of a roadkill

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Post by Guest on Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:06 pm

So as you call me dodge, I shall call you now twatty.

So on history you are a twat thinking Nazism, was left wing

You also think climate change is a myth

You think the moon landings were also a myth

You discount islamic terrorists murdering thousands of people on 9/11 based on you being a gullible imbiclle

You think the EU controls 75% of our laws

I would suggest based on this idiocy, that you stop making yourself look a complete twat mate

You simple are an emabressment


Last edited by Thor on Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:06 pm

Oh fuk off with full fact bullshit dodge!!!


The clip is EU-Justice Commissioner Viviane Reding!!!!!!!!!!



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Post by Guest on Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:08 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Oh fuk off with full fact bullshit dodge!!!


The clip is EU-Justice Commissioner Viviane Reding!!!!!!!!!!



So your evidence is the hearsay of one person and you base this on my link that has facts

Baaaaaaaa

You are a fucking sheep

When will you be able to process your own mind and think for yourself?

Seriously

Again you are an embaressment

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:09 pm

National socialist dodge...

The climate is always changing...

Plenty of evidence to show moon landings fake...


And EU-Justice Commissioner Viviane Reding says all EU countries have 75-80% of their laws dictated to them by the EU...





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Post by Guest on Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:15 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:National socialist dodge...

The climate is always changing...

Plenty of evidence to show moon landings fake...


And EU-Justice Commissioner Viviane Reding says all EU countries have 75-80% of their laws dictated to them by the EU...





National socialism?

Well tht socialism was removed through murder

It then became Nationalism only, in 1934

Hence why idiots like you are drawn to conspiracies, because that is what people insecure are drawn to.

You never look at your beliefs as I do. Its why I have changed beliefs, as I skeptically look at them. You hold a religious fantaical view. Dogmatic. Which has been proves above. Your view was to trust one person as evidence on hearsay. Never questioning whether they could be wrong

Which makes you one thick fuck

The mooon landings were fake?

Study says Brexit's toll on UK economy will be 'like losing the city of London' - at best - Page 2 3489511464

I wonder if you watched this video

Do you know what this type of documentry is called Tommy?

A mockumentry


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