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Reporter goes undercover to expose English church that claims to "cure" homosexuality

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:59 pm

Reporter goes undercover to expose English church that claims to "cure" homosexuality Stream_img
The pastor is calling on the Holy Spirit to 'push something else out' of our undercover reporter. Credit: ITV News secret filming

Winners' Chapel openly claims that its mission is "liberating men everywhere from every oppression of the devil", and at its branch in Dartford, that includes homosexuality.

Our undercover reporter spent two months attending the church - one of the largest in Britain - where several pastors made clear they could help stop him being gay.

He has met four in total, with a hidden camera capturing his pre-arranged appointment with Pastor Gbenga Samuel.

Over the course of their meeting, Pastor Gbenga told our reporter "something shifted" in the process of his life, "which God can fix".

The pastor drew a diagram of the spirit, body and soul, and claimed that several parts of our reporter had come "under the control of Satan".

He reassured our reporter that he was young, with a strong will, which is "one advantage that you have over the devil".

But he warned him that society would try to convince him that being gay was "the right thing".

Most shockingly, he claimed that messages of acceptance we see and hear in modern society about gay people have been "carefully scripted" by Satan, drawing a comparison with the way Germans were brainwashed by Nazi propaganda.

https://www.itv.com/news/2018-11-12/an-itv-news-undercover-investigation-exposes-the-uk-church-that-claims-you-dont-have-to-be-gay/

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Post by eddie on Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:15 pm

These kind of people are actually, really batshit crazy. Stupidly insane and misguided.

And dangerous.

And hopefully, on the wane.

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Post by Syl on Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:42 pm

Oh dear. Most people progress but there will always be the ones who take 2 steps backwards.

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Post by Eilzel on Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:37 am

Utter poison, needs to be shut down.

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Post by Lurker on Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:39 am

Trump has empowered the craziest of the crazy. Human lives are in danger because of that asshole. Democrats, gays, women, truthful reporters and all sane humans are Trump's targets.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:56 am

Lurker wrote:Trump has empowered the craziest of the crazy. Human lives are in danger because of that asshole. Democrats, gays, women, truthful reporters and all sane humans are Trump's targets.

Sorry Lurker, I gave you a red on that completely by mistake. I agree with you completely.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:23 am

That's kewl. I'll give it back to him.

This homosexual rebending is a bad business. It's almost human trafficking.

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Post by nicko on Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:45 am

Does he charge for his "services" ?
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Post by 'Wolfie on Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:00 am

grin angel

@ nicko :

With him being a self-appointed "pastor" in some loony little fringe 'relogion' he probably gets paid "cash in hand", so that the taxman and aithorities don't know of his ill-gotten gains...

Much like "faith healers"..

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Post by HoratioTarr on Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:32 am

This kind of mindset has always been there and, I fear, always will be. There's always something to hate or fear. There's no cure for stupid. I mean, look at all those idiots marching in the streets in Pakistan demanding that Asia Bibi have her head cut off for insulting Islam. Thousands of them all up in arms over one woman, demanding blood and full of hatred. Where does that come from? It seems to jump like wildfire from one moron to another until you have a screaming mob.

One whiff of this kind of thing should be stamped out from source and this so called Church closed down.
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Post by HoratioTarr on Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:34 am

nicko wrote:Does he charge for his "services" ?

The thing here also is that, in our society, most people just shrug or laugh this off as being the lunatic fringe. But then it gets a foot hold. It's not funny.
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Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:07 pm

He must have customers though. Does that mean there are gay people who would rather not be gay?

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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:17 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:He must have customers though. Does that mean there are gay people who would rather not be gay?

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Reporter goes undercover to expose English church that claims to "cure" homosexuality Img_4110
Reporter goes undercover to expose English church that claims to "cure" homosexuality _files10

Does that mean there are people who are persecuted for being different who would rather not be different, so that they wouldn't be persecuted?

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Post by Eilzel on Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:02 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:He must have customers though. Does that mean there are gay people who would rather not be gay?

Of course there are. Look at Ben's post, can you imagine why?

It doesn't work. It creates more psychological trauma. It preys on the vulnerable.

Homophobia needs to die.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:38 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:He must have customers though. Does that mean there are gay people who would rather not be gay?

Of course there are. Look at Ben's post, can you imagine why?

It doesn't work. It creates more psychological trauma. It preys on the vulnerable.

Homophobia needs to die.

Actually, I've gotten the impression that the business comes from intermeddling family, like intolerant fathers and mothers sending teenage boys and girls to camps.

People screwing in other people's lives is the bane of the world.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:40 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:He must have customers though. Does that mean there are gay people who would rather not be gay?

Of course there are. Look at Ben's post, can you imagine why?

It doesn't work. It creates more psychological trauma. It preys on the vulnerable.

Homophobia needs to die.

You think that persecution is the only reason? What if they think it would be more convenient if they weren't gay?

Anyway, he can't operate without a market.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:45 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

Of course there are. Look at Ben's post, can you imagine why?

It doesn't work. It creates more psychological trauma. It preys on the vulnerable.

Homophobia needs to die.

You think that persecution is the only reason? What if they think it would be more convenient if they weren't gay?

Anyway, he can't operate without a market.

Um...convenient? It's hardly rational calculation or decision making.  Changing your whole 'being' is not like changing jobs.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:48 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

You think that persecution is the only reason? What if they think it would be more convenient if they weren't gay?

Anyway, he can't operate without a market.

It's hardly rational calculation or decision making.  Changing your 'being' is not like changing jobs.

Well that's why they're going to this man, right?

For example, a gay man might want to have children. Of course he could adopt or use a surrogate, but it's more convenient to have them the usual way - with a woman.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:08 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

It's hardly rational calculation or decision making.  Changing your 'being' is not like changing jobs.

Well that's why they're going to this man, right?

For example, a gay man might want to have children. Of course he could adopt or use a surrogate, but it's more convenient to have them the usual way - with a woman.

You don't need a shaman to have sex. In fact, I'd imagine an extra pair of legs would get in the way.

The victims of this scam are pushed by intermeddling parents and family. The victims are already vulnerable and taught to hate themselves--look at the pics Ben posted--and they get pushed into these faux institutions by feelings of guilt.

It's a variant of 'shaming'. They're told, who wants to be gay when you could be normal.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:11 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Well that's why they're going to this man, right?

For example, a gay man might want to have children. Of course he could adopt or use a surrogate, but it's more convenient to have them the usual way - with a woman.

You don't need a shaman to have sex.  In fact, I'd imagine an extra pair of legs would get in the way.

The victims of this scam are pushed by intermeddling parents and family.  The victims are already vulnerable and taught to hate themselves--look at the pics Ben posted--and they get pushed into these faux institutions by feelings of guilt.

It's a variant of 'shaming'.  They're told, who wants to be gay when you could be normal.

I don't understand your first sentence at all. Of course a gay man can have sex with a woman, but it would be against his instinct, and he wouldn't be able to sustain a relationship with the woman if they had children.

What we don't know is how many volunteer for or agree to this process because they don't want to be gay.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:24 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

You don't need a shaman to have sex.  In fact, I'd imagine an extra pair of legs would get in the way.

The victims of this scam are pushed by intermeddling parents and family.  The victims are already vulnerable and taught to hate themselves--look at the pics Ben posted--and they get pushed into these faux institutions by feelings of guilt.

It's a variant of 'shaming'.  They're told, who wants to be gay when you could be normal.

I don't understand your first sentence at all. Of course a gay man can have sex with a woman, but it would be against his instinct, and he wouldn't be able to sustain a relationship with the woman if they had children.

Lot's of people cannot sustain relationships.  Why, just the other day Syl and I were discussing people with abandonment issues, and the defenses they set up.

Raggamuffin wrote:What we don't know is how many volunteer for or agree to this process because they don't want to be gay.

Gays just sustain relationships, tyvm, with different genders.  I think something as intimate as your self-definition does not change, except at the demand of people who have ulterior motives...i.e., they condemn the being of it all.  When a parent, or family member tells you: Hate yourself, and learn to talk like us...and you'll ultimately be like us, it gets to you.

These shamans are profiting on this scam.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:30 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I don't understand your first sentence at all. Of course a gay man can have sex with a woman, but it would be against his instinct, and he wouldn't be able to sustain a relationship with the woman if they had children.

Lot's of people cannot sustain relationships.  Why, just the other day Syl and I were discussing people with abandonment issues, and the defenses they set up.

Raggamuffin wrote:What we don't know is how many volunteer for or agree to this process because they don't want to be gay.

Gays just sustain relationships, tyvm, with different genders.  I think something as intimate as your self-definition does not change, except at the demand of people who have ulterior motives...i.e., they condemn the being of it all.  When a parent, or family member tells you: Hate yourself, and learn to talk like us...and you'll ultimately be like us, it gets to you.

These shamans are profiting on this scam.

You surely can't be suggesting that a man has sex with a woman just to have a kid which he could see every other weekend. It would be wrong to pretend to be straight if he's not.

Are you also suggesting that every single gay person who's been to this man has done so unwillingly or by force?

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:54 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Lot's of people cannot sustain relationships.  Why, just the other day Syl and I were discussing people with abandonment issues, and the defenses they set up.



Gays just sustain relationships, tyvm, with different genders.  I think something as intimate as your self-definition does not change, except at the demand of people who have ulterior motives...i.e., they condemn the being of it all.  When a parent, or family member tells you: Hate yourself, and learn to talk like us...and you'll ultimately be like us, it gets to you.

These shamans are profiting on this scam.

You surely can't be suggesting that a man has sex with a woman just to have a kid which he could see every other weekend. It would be wrong to pretend to be straight if he's not.

What I am suggesting is that he not pretend to be straight, just to have a kid.  Arrangements are always available.  He and his partner can adopt.  He might arrange with a surrogate.  After all, there are many heterosexual couples who separate, and the kids survive.  Aren't they merely choosing a different (single) lifestyle?

Raggamuffin wrote:Are you also suggesting that every single gay person who's been to this man has done so unwillingly or by force?

There are two kinds of freedom, and thus two kinds of lack of freedom.  The most simple kind of restraint is physical, or negative restraint.  But there is also psychological restraint, whereby a person is imprisoned in his own mind to believe something.  I think that is what these shamans do, particularly with the use of religion...already, a psychological lock-down in it's own way.

I think that these scams work at the behest of someone close--family members--who have warped beliefs themselves about what is right or wrong, and what is natural or unnatural.  I think the shamans know they are scamming.  I think parents often do not...or don't care.  I think the victims are under the psychological restraint because of confusion over their love for family, or religion, and conflict over their gay feelings.  Very often, when gays and lesbians 'come out' they are declaring at the same time, their freedom from psychological restraint.  Only then is life settled for them.

That's why we are happy for them.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:23 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

You surely can't be suggesting that a man has sex with a woman just to have a kid which he could see every other weekend. It would be wrong to pretend to be straight if he's not.

What I am suggesting is that he not pretend to be straight, just to have a kid.  Arrangements are always available.  He and his partner can adopt.  He might arrange with a surrogate.  After all, there are many heterosexual couples who separate, and the kids survive.  Aren't they merely choosing a different (single) lifestyle?


What I'm saying is that it's a lot more hassle to adopt or have a kid by a surrogate than having one the usual way ie, it's more inconvenient.

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Post by Syl on Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:20 pm

I bet not one gay person would ever wish they were straight if homophobia didn't exist.

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Post by Eilzel on Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:07 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Well that's why they're going to this man, right?

For example, a gay man might want to have children. Of course he could adopt or use a surrogate, but it's more convenient to have them the usual way - with a woman.

You don't need a shaman to have sex.  In fact, I'd imagine an extra pair of legs would get in the way.

The victims of this scam are pushed by intermeddling parents and family.  The victims are already vulnerable and taught to hate themselves--look at the pics Ben posted--and they get pushed into these faux institutions by feelings of guilt.

It's a variant of 'shaming'.  They're told, who wants to be gay when you could be normal.

I don't understand your first sentence at all. Of course a gay man can have sex with a woman, but it would be against his instinct, and he wouldn't be able to sustain a relationship with the woman if they had children.

What we don't know is how many volunteer for or agree to this process because they don't want to be gay.

Wtf. They're still being taken advantage of by an idiot commiting a fraudulent and damaging activity. It is disgusting.

And as Syl says, mostly it's homophobia that leads people to not wanting to be gay.

Are actually defending this guy?

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Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:32 am

Eilzel wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I don't understand your first sentence at all. Of course a gay man can have sex with a woman, but it would be against his instinct, and he wouldn't be able to sustain a relationship with the woman if they had children.

What we don't know is how many volunteer for or agree to this process because they don't want to be gay.

Wtf. They're still being taken advantage of by an idiot commiting a fraudulent and damaging activity. It is disgusting.

And as Syl says, mostly it's homophobia that leads people to not wanting to be gay.

Are actually defending this guy?

No, I'm just saying he wouldn't be able to do it if he didn't have takers - like drug dealers who wouldn't be able to operate if people didn't take illegal drugs.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:35 am

Lurker wrote:Trump has empowered the craziest of the crazy. Human lives are in danger because of that asshole. Democrats, gays, women, truthful reporters and all sane humans are Trump's targets.

I know you blame Trump for everything, but I don't think you can pin this one on him.

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Reporter goes undercover to expose English church that claims to "cure" homosexuality Empty Re: Reporter goes undercover to expose English church that claims to "cure" homosexuality

Post by Eilzel on Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:19 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I don't understand your first sentence at all. Of course a gay man can have sex with a woman, but it would be against his instinct, and he wouldn't be able to sustain a relationship with the woman if they had children.

What we don't know is how many volunteer for or agree to this process because they don't want to be gay.

Wtf. They're still being taken advantage of by an idiot commiting a fraudulent and damaging activity. It is disgusting.

And as Syl says, mostly it's homophobia that leads people to not wanting to be gay.

Are actually defending this guy?

No, I'm just saying he wouldn't be able to do it if he didn't have takers - like drug dealers who wouldn't be able to operate if people didn't take illegal drugs.

I think both should be criminal - churches like this, and drug dealers. Don't you?

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Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:24 am

Eilzel wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

No, I'm just saying he wouldn't be able to do it if he didn't have takers - like drug dealers who wouldn't be able to operate if people didn't take illegal drugs.

I think both should be criminal - churches like this, and drug dealers. Don't you?

Dealing in illegal drugs is already illegal.

I've done some research into this church, it's a branch of the Living Faith Church Worldwide and their aim is to liberate the world from the oppressions of the devil. It's not known if they officially offer this particular service as part of their mission.

I'm not sure on what grounds you would make it a criminal organisation when there are people who are clearly asking for this "service".

Do you not condemn those who do ask to be converted? After all, without them he would have no cause to do it.

I do have one question - I wonder if he ever follows up on those he converted and finds out that it didn't actually work.

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Post by Eilzel on Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:48 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

No, I'm just saying he wouldn't be able to do it if he didn't have takers - like drug dealers who wouldn't be able to operate if people didn't take illegal drugs.

I think both should be criminal - churches like this, and drug dealers. Don't you?

Dealing in illegal drugs is already illegal.

I've done some research into this church, it's a branch of the Living Faith Church Worldwide and their aim is to liberate the world from the oppressions of the devil. It's not known if they officially offer this particular service as part of their mission.

I'm not sure on what grounds you would make it a criminal organisation when there are people who are clearly asking for this "service".

Do you not condemn those who do ask to be converted? After all, without them he would have no cause to do it.

I do have one question - I wonder if he ever follows up on those he converted and finds out that it didn't actually work.

Just because people ask for a service does NOT mean it should be legal to provide it.

If people want slaves should we provide the service?
If people want to hire a hit man, should such a service be provided?
If people want access to heroin, should we decriminalise drug sellers who provide it?

You already acknowledge drug dealers as criminals already. Why are they? Because at some point society deemed it immoral to sell drugs.
Why not make illegal a practice which is also proven harmful (attempting 'gay cures')?

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Post by Raggamuffin on Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:53 am

Eilzel wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Dealing in illegal drugs is already illegal.

I've done some research into this church, it's a branch of the Living Faith Church Worldwide and their aim is to liberate the world from the oppressions of the devil. It's not known if they officially offer this particular service as part of their mission.

I'm not sure on what grounds you would make it a criminal organisation when there are people who are clearly asking for this "service".

Do you not condemn those who do ask to be converted? After all, without them he would have no cause to do it.

I do have one question - I wonder if he ever follows up on those he converted and finds out that it didn't actually work.

Just because people ask for a service does NOT mean it should be legal to provide it.

If people want slaves should we provide the service?
If people want to hire a hit man, should such a service be provided?
If people want access to heroin, should we decriminalise drug sellers who provide it?

You already acknowledge drug dealers as criminals already. Why are they? Because at some point society deemed it immoral to sell drugs.
Why not make illegal a practice which is also proven harmful (attempting 'gay cures')?

I think it would come under religious freedom though. The reporter clearly implied that he was unhappy to be gay, so he was asking for help. At that point you might expect a pastor to encourage him to accept his sexuality, but this pastor believes that it's the work of the devil.

Would you also make exorcisms illegal? They're based on the same premise are they not?

Even if that aspect of the church could be outlawed, they wouldn't outlaw the church itself.

You didn't address my other point. What do you think about the people who go to him? They are encouraging him aren't they? My view on drug dealers is that those who take the drugs are also responsible because they know the possible consequences of taking drugs.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:35 pm

The whole point in banning a product or service up for offer is that it does too much harm or carries too much risk of harm.

Church "services" like this heap harm upon harm, because the only people who seek them out are those who have already been made to feel there's something wrong with them. This feeling is then reinforced by church authorities that the gay person seeking conversion may well think of as infallible.

Further reading on the dangers of conversion therapy: https://www.livescience.com/50453-why-gay-conversion-therapy-harmful.html

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Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:57 pm



Has anyone ever been 'cured'...?

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:39 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:No, I'm just saying he wouldn't be able to do it if he didn't have takers -

First, you need to ask the question Who seeks conversion therapy?  More to the point, who makes the decision for an individual to undergo conversion therapy?  Then we might ask, Who has influence on the decision?

According to the Williams Institute report Conversion Therapy and LGBT Youth conversion therapy is practiced predominately on adolescents.  In the US 698,000 individuals have received conversion therapy, of which some 350,000--or over 50%-- were adolescents when they received it.  https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/Conversion-Therapy-LGBT-Youth-Jan-2018.pdf  Thus, decision-makers, or "takers" of conversion therapy are predominately parents or legal guardians of those undergoing the process.  

Now, as to the remaining, presumably adults undergoing conversion therapy, a substantial number are influenced by communal, religious and family members having close associations with the individual.  I have been unable to find precise numbers of 'influencers' but enough is learned to conclude that practically no individual makes the decision to undergo conversion therapy alone.

So, to address your question, over 50% of the "takers" are parents and legal guardians, and substantially more are influencers not of the LBGT persuasion.

The people who undergo conversion therapy are pressured into it, and the 'decision-making' market are those who believe that homosexuality is abnormal.

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:52 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Has anyone ever been 'cured'...?

Of what?  As one article in Live Science explains:

Live Science wrote:Homosexuality is not considered a mental disorder, so the American Psychological Association (APA) does not recommend "curing" same-sex attraction in any case. Instead, societal ignorance, prejudice and pressure to conform to heterosexual desires are the real dangers to gay people's mental health, according to a 1997 statement on "conversion" or "reparative" therapy by the APA.

I imagine some people "think" they have been cured.  But according to the best opinion research, they are merely suppressing their inner tendencies, and for the most part, are unhappy for it.

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Post by Lurker on Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:47 pm

Gay conversion therapy in any form is a fraud and snake oil. It's utter bullshit. How would you like to have "straight conversion therapy" to try to force you to be gay? That's ridiculous, right? So is the other way around. You are what you are. You are born that way.

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Post by HoratioTarr on Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:11 pm

Lurker wrote:Gay conversion therapy in any form is a fraud and snake oil. It's utter bullshit. How would you like to have "straight conversion therapy" to try to force you to be gay? That's ridiculous, right? So is the other way around. You are what you are. You are born that way.

I know, it's so stupid. It's genetic not something you suddenly develop like the measles.
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