Brazil elects new president - Why are the left wing BBC and guardian claiming he is 'far right'...?

Jair Messias Bolsonaro is a Brazilian politician and former military officer who is the President-elect of Brazil. He has served as a member of the Chamber of Deputies, representing the state of Rio de Janeiro, since 1991. He is a member of the Social Liberal Party.


BBC headline...

Jair Bolsonaro: Far-right candidate wins Brazil poll



Guardian headline...

Far-right candidate Jair Bolsonaro wins presidential vote – as it happened




Can anyone explain what it is that makes him 'far right'...???


Or are the left wing media lying again...?

Just like they do when they try to label other political party's as 'far right', in UK and across Europe...?

Once again, poor stupid Tommy demonstrates his sheer ignorance of all things political...

Too hopelessly thick to understand  that simply including the words "socialist" or "liberal" in a name, doesn't necessarily mean that a political party is automatically  in any way 'left wing'..

"Actions speak louder than words", and when you have a recognised far right wing leader of a far right wing party, he is a far right- winger --  except in Tommy Monk's own private alternative punyverse.

Then again Tommy the know-nothing twit still claims that Hitler and Mussolini were "far left wing" dictators  !!!

Explain what exactly it is that makes him or his party 'far right'...???


Come on...???


I bet you can't...!!!





Cos it is just a label dished out by lying leftys in an attempt to throw mud at and discredit others...!!!

Still waiting fleakeeper...


Well...???

For fleakeeper...


The Nazis were left-wing socialists. Yes, the National Socialist Workers Party of Germany, otherwise known as the Nazi Party, was indeed socialist and it had a lot in common with the modern left. Hitler preached class warfare, agitating the working class to resist “exploitation” by capitalists , particularly Jewish capitalists, of course. Their programs called for the nationalization of education, health care, transportation, and other major industries. They instituted and vigorously enforced a strict gun control regimen. They encouraged pornography, illegitimacy, and abortion, and they denounced Christians as right-wing fanatics. Yet a popular myth persists that the Nazis themselves were right-wing extremists. This insidious lie biases the entire political landscape today.

In statement after statement, Hitler could not be clearer about his socialist commitments. He said, for example, in a 1927 speech, “We are socialists. We are the enemies of today’s capitalist system of exploitation … and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions.”



And...


http://www.historyinanhour.com/2012/07/29/benito-mussolini-socialist/

The new president is apparently a pro-gun, pro-torture, anti-gay Christian who has sworn to drive out communists.

So about as far-right as is possible to be.

Of course, in tommy's book the Democratic Republic of Korea is a free and functioning model of democracy

If you believe the loony left losing party propaganda...


Who were booted out of govt for bringing economic ruin, epidemic corruption and massive rise in crime...

Tommy Monk wrote:If you believe the loony left losing party propaganda...


Who were booted out of govt for bringing economic ruin, epidemic corruption and massive rise in crime...

Is anything I said there not true? There are direct quotes confirming some of those things.

So aside from a flimsy party name, (and I assume you don't think he's actually a socialist) what makes him not Far-Right?

And there really is little surprising about a leader of a developing country being corrupt. It would surprising if they weren't. You think this guy won't be?

People have had enough of the lefty agenda and the economic doom and corruption and huge crime that came with it...


Nothing you said = far right...

Casting himself as a political outsider, Mr Bolsonaro ran a campaign characterised by violent talk and far-right positions, including praise for Brazil's 1964-1985 military dictatorship, support for torture, and outright racism, misogyny and homophobia.

Two years ago he commented that the dictatorship's mistake was "to torture and not kill" leftist dissidents, and during his campaign he vowed to send opponents "into exile or into prison".

The former army captain has commented that he would rather his sons die than come out as gay. He told a female member of congress that he wouldn’t rape her because “she wasn’t worthy of it,” explained that his sons would never love black women because they were “properly raised,” and claimed that a particular secretary of women’s issues shouldn’t have been appointed because “she was a dyke.”

https://news.sky.com/story/far-right-candidate-jair-bolsonaro-wins-brazil-presidential-election-11538800

Verdict Far right

Now as per usual people have voted for him, as they have in the past for other Far right groups due to the poor state of the economy nd high levels of crime

He has thrown in some policies that appeal to people, but then that is what the Far right do in order to gain power He seems to have a totoal disregard for human rights and clearly is on a path to Totalitarianism

Verdict Far right

Yep...

Looks like Brazil is swinging right back to where they were in the 1970s and 1980s..

The only people on NF I would imagine celebrating Brazil slip-sliding back into a far-right-wing dictatorship will be Tommy and Smelly'.

I just looked him up on wiki

considering some of the comments he's made about women and gays, I'm surprised he's so popular. I'm even more surprised that he won

gelico wrote:

I just looked him up on wiki

considering some of the comments he's made about women and gays, I'm surprised he's so popular.  I'm even more surprised that he won

What Drives Female Support for Brazil’s Far Right?

Jair Messias Bolsonaro, the far-right military officer turned politician who is likely to become Brazil’s next president, has said shocking things about women. He told a female member of congress that he wouldn’t rape her because “she wasn’t worthy of it,” explained that his sons would never love black women because they were “properly raised,” and claimed that a particular secretary of women’s issues shouldn’t have been appointed because “she was a dyke.” The reaction to such bomb-throwing in the era of #metoo has been, apparently, predictable: organizing via social media with the hashtag #EleNão (#NotHim), an estimated 150,000 people—of whom the majority were women—across Brazil took to the streets on September 19 (three weeks before the first round of presidential elections) to tell their fellow citizens, and the world, that Bolsonaro doesn’t represent them.

Less predictable, however, and less remarked upon, is the surge of women who feel differently. In fact, come October 28, a good 44 percent of Brazilian women are likely to vote the exact opposite: #EleSim (#YesHim). Facebook groups for women who support Bolsonaro have more than 300,000 members. These voters see Bolsonaro as the answer to at least one problem—criminal violence—that disproportionately affects women, and they follow in the footsteps of Brazil’s conservative women’s movement of a bygone time.

Women voters are moved by some of the same issues that have swayed the larger electorate, and which play well for Bolsonaro, such as corruption. Bolsonaro’s leading opponent, Fernando

Haddad, is the hand-picked successor of Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, the Workers’ Party’s former president, known as Lula, who is currently serving a 12-year prison sentence for corruption and money laundering, specifically on account of having accepted a beachfront apartment as a bribe. The Car Wash probe, which began in 2014, revealed a system of kickbacks that linked Brazil’s majority-state-owned oil company, construction companies, and politicians. Disgust with such practices is driving voters of all kinds toward the populist insurgent.

But the issue that may have the most specific traction with women is safety. In the last ten years, 553,000 people have been killed in Brazil. In 2017, an average of 175 people were murdered every day; that’s seven people per hour. The number of Brazilians killed by criminal violence in the last 14 years rivals that of the Syrian war dead.

This pervasive insecurity has left women particularly vulnerable. More than 60,000 women were raped in 2017; another 1,133 were killed because of their gender, and 606 cases of domestic violence were registered every day. Recent polling shows that 69 percent of the female electorate is afraid of violence, compared to 54 percent of male voters. Another poll has 43 percent of women favoring the death penalty, and 75 percent supporting lowering the minimum age at which accused criminals should be tried as adults. Such numbers suggest a female constituency for the law and order politics that Bolsonaro represents, regardless of the candidate’s incendiary remarks.

In 2017, an average of 175 people were murdered every day; that’s seven people per hour.
If the conservative bent of a good part of Brazil’s female electorate seems surprising in an era of transnational feminism, it may not be so surprising inside Brazil. Five decades ago, women were at the forefront of the opposition to President João Goulart that culminated in a military coup and twenty years of right-wing dictatorship. The coup rode the back of a conservative civilian movement, known as the Family March with God for Freedom, which was arranged by the Female Civic Union and the Women’s Campaign for Democracy. These conservative Brazilians objected to the president’s reform program, which was to culminate in the redistribution of goods and land, and which they perceived as communist infiltration on behalf of a “unionist republic.” On March 19, 1964—a day dedicated to Saint Joseph, patron of families—half a million women marched in São Paulo with rosaries in hand. That month, a junta displaced Goulart.

After the military regime fell in 1985 and the Soviet Union collapsed in 1989, a Pink Tide—characterized by the rise of left-leaning political parties—washed over Brazil and the rest of Latin America. The fall of communism and the failure of neoliberalism to generate Latin American prosperity opened a space for left-wing politicians and progressive economic policies. From the 1990s through the early 2000s, leftist figures such as Evo Morales in Bolivia, Néstor Kirchner in Argentina, and Hugo Chávez in Venezuela swept to power in presidential elections. Lula, a metalworker, trade unionist, and founder of the Workers’ Party, was Brazil’s answer to that moment when he became president in 2003. But the promise of those years was quickly swamped by corruption, self-dealing, and spiraling violence.

Today a crisis of trust in institutions, from law enforcement to schools and hospitals, has led many Brazilian women to see Bolsonaro—whose middle name means Messiah—as a savior who can rescue them from the country’s chaos. Brazilians see their country as highly corrupt, and 26 percent of Brazilian women are voting for Bolsonaro because they don’t want another four years under Lula’s Party.

The conservative wave that has replaced the Pink Tide has a cultural dimension. Many Brazilian conservatives associate feminism with what they see as a decadent and discredited left. Overall, 58 percent of Brazilians are considered highly conservative today. Eighty-two percent of Brazilian women are against the legalization of abortion and 40 percent are against same-sex marriage. Moreover, Brazil has a burgeoning evangelical population, which makes up 22 percent of the electorate and counting: Catholics are projected to become a religious minority by 2030. Bolsonaro has capitalized on this increasing social conservatism by assuming the mantle of “family values.”

Women were at the forefront of the opposition to President João Goulart that culminated in a military coup and twenty years of right-wing dictatorship.

For many Brazilian women, choosing their new president will be a balancing act. Women make up more than half of the country’s total electorate. The number of female-headed households more than doubled between 2001 and 2015, and more than half of all Brazilians with graduate degrees are women. And yet Brazilian women experience higher rates of poverty and unemployment, and lower levels of political participation, than men.

Alongside their more liberal peers, conservative Brazilian women will go to the polls on Sunday and help decide their country’s future. If they choose to elect Bolsonaro, they will ensure his already likely victory and once again pull Brazil to the right.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/brazil/2018-10-26/women-bolsonaro

One word Gelico, religion is the reason why

To answer your question

Didge wrote:

gelico wrote:

I just looked him up on wiki

considering some of the comments he's made about women and gays, I'm surprised he's so popular.  I'm even more surprised that he won

What Drives Female Support for Brazil’s Far Right?

Jair Messias Bolsonaro, the far-right military officer turned politician who is likely to become Brazil’s next president, has said shocking things about women. He told a female member of congress that he wouldn’t rape her because “she wasn’t worthy of it,” explained that his sons would never love black women because they were “properly raised,” and claimed that a particular secretary of women’s issues shouldn’t have been appointed because “she was a dyke.” The reaction to such bomb-throwing in the era of #metoo has been, apparently, predictable: organizing via social media with the hashtag #EleNão (#NotHim), an estimated 150,000 people—of whom the majority were women—across Brazil took to the streets on September 19 (three weeks before the first round of presidential elections) to tell their fellow citizens, and the world, that Bolsonaro doesn’t represent them.

Less predictable, however, and less remarked upon, is the surge of women who feel differently. In fact, come October 28, a good 44 percent of Brazilian women are likely to vote the exact opposite: #EleSim (#YesHim). Facebook groups for women who support Bolsonaro have more than 300,000 members. These voters see Bolsonaro as the answer to at least one problem—criminal violence—that disproportionately affects women, and they follow in the footsteps of Brazil’s conservative women’s movement of a bygone time.

Women voters are moved by some of the same issues that have swayed the larger electorate, and which play well for Bolsonaro, such as corruption. Bolsonaro’s leading opponent, Fernando

Haddad, is the hand-picked successor of Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, the Workers’ Party’s former president, known as Lula, who is currently serving a 12-year prison sentence for corruption and money laundering, specifically on account of having accepted a beachfront apartment as a bribe. The Car Wash probe, which began in 2014, revealed a system of kickbacks that linked Brazil’s majority-state-owned oil company, construction companies, and politicians. Disgust with such practices is driving voters of all kinds toward the populist insurgent.

But the issue that may have the most specific traction with women is safety. In the last ten years, 553,000 people have been killed in Brazil. In 2017, an average of 175 people were murdered every day; that’s seven people per hour. The number of Brazilians killed by criminal violence in the last 14 years rivals that of the Syrian war dead.

This pervasive insecurity has left women particularly vulnerable. More than 60,000 women were raped in 2017; another 1,133 were killed because of their gender, and 606 cases of domestic violence were registered every day. Recent polling shows that 69 percent of the female electorate is afraid of violence, compared to 54 percent of male voters. Another poll has 43 percent of women favoring the death penalty, and 75 percent supporting lowering the minimum age at which accused criminals should be tried as adults. Such numbers suggest a female constituency for the law and order politics that Bolsonaro represents, regardless of the candidate’s incendiary remarks.

In 2017, an average of 175 people were murdered every day; that’s seven people per hour.
If the conservative bent of a good part of Brazil’s female electorate seems surprising in an era of transnational feminism, it may not be so surprising inside Brazil. Five decades ago, women were at the forefront of the opposition to President João Goulart that culminated in a military coup and twenty years of right-wing dictatorship. The coup rode the back of a conservative civilian movement, known as the Family March with God for Freedom, which was arranged by the Female Civic Union and the Women’s Campaign for Democracy. These conservative Brazilians objected to the president’s reform program, which was to culminate in the redistribution of goods and land, and which they perceived as communist infiltration on behalf of a “unionist republic.” On March 19, 1964—a day dedicated to Saint Joseph, patron of families—half a million women marched in São Paulo with rosaries in hand. That month, a junta displaced Goulart.

After the military regime fell in 1985 and the Soviet Union collapsed in 1989, a Pink Tide—characterized by the rise of left-leaning political parties—washed over Brazil and the rest of Latin America. The fall of communism and the failure of neoliberalism to generate Latin American prosperity opened a space for left-wing politicians and progressive economic policies. From the 1990s through the early 2000s, leftist figures such as Evo Morales in Bolivia, Néstor Kirchner in Argentina, and Hugo Chávez in Venezuela swept to power in presidential elections. Lula, a metalworker, trade unionist, and founder of the Workers’ Party, was Brazil’s answer to that moment when he became president in 2003. But the promise of those years was quickly swamped by corruption, self-dealing, and spiraling violence.

Today a crisis of trust in institutions, from law enforcement to schools and hospitals, has led many Brazilian women to see Bolsonaro—whose middle name means Messiah—as a savior who can rescue them from the country’s chaos. Brazilians see their country as highly corrupt, and 26 percent of Brazilian women are voting for Bolsonaro because they don’t want another four years under Lula’s Party.

The conservative wave that has replaced the Pink Tide has a cultural dimension. Many Brazilian conservatives associate feminism with what they see as a decadent and discredited left. Overall, 58 percent of Brazilians are considered highly conservative today. Eighty-two percent of Brazilian women are against the legalization of abortion and 40 percent are against same-sex marriage. Moreover, Brazil has a burgeoning evangelical population, which makes up 22 percent of the electorate and counting: Catholics are projected to become a religious minority by 2030. Bolsonaro has capitalized on this increasing social conservatism by assuming the mantle of “family values.”

Women were at the forefront of the opposition to President João Goulart that culminated in a military coup and twenty years of right-wing dictatorship.

For many Brazilian women, choosing their new president will be a balancing act. Women make up more than half of the country’s total electorate. The number of female-headed households more than doubled between 2001 and 2015, and more than half of all Brazilians with graduate degrees are women. And yet Brazilian women experience higher rates of poverty and unemployment, and lower levels of political participation, than men.

Alongside their more liberal peers, conservative Brazilian women will go to the polls on Sunday and help decide their country’s future. If they choose to elect Bolsonaro, they will ensure his already likely victory and once again pull Brazil to the right.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/brazil/2018-10-26/women-bolsonaro

One word Gelico, religion is the reason why

To answer your question

religion? your article barely mentions religion.

it seemed more about violence, crime, corruption, lack of trust in the institutions than religion.

as for the stats on abortion and same sex marriage, i would say many many people are against abortion but not because of religion as such. according to the article 40% are against same sex marriage which would mean 60% favour it, or couldn't care less about it.

doesn't sound so much like religious fervour to me

No... he won because he says he will be tough on crime and corruption... lefty's were responsible for both being in epidemic proportions...

gelico wrote:

Didge wrote:

What Drives Female Support for Brazil’s Far Right?

Jair Messias Bolsonaro, the far-right military officer turned politician who is likely to become Brazil’s next president, has said shocking things about women. He told a female member of congress that he wouldn’t rape her because “she wasn’t worthy of it,” explained that his sons would never love black women because they were “properly raised,” and claimed that a particular secretary of women’s issues shouldn’t have been appointed because “she was a dyke.” The reaction to such bomb-throwing in the era of #metoo has been, apparently, predictable: organizing via social media with the hashtag #EleNão (#NotHim), an estimated 150,000 people—of whom the majority were women—across Brazil took to the streets on September 19 (three weeks before the first round of presidential elections) to tell their fellow citizens, and the world, that Bolsonaro doesn’t represent them.

Less predictable, however, and less remarked upon, is the surge of women who feel differently. In fact, come October 28, a good 44 percent of Brazilian women are likely to vote the exact opposite: #EleSim (#YesHim). Facebook groups for women who support Bolsonaro have more than 300,000 members. These voters see Bolsonaro as the answer to at least one problem—criminal violence—that disproportionately affects women, and they follow in the footsteps of Brazil’s conservative women’s movement of a bygone time.

Women voters are moved by some of the same issues that have swayed the larger electorate, and which play well for Bolsonaro, such as corruption. Bolsonaro’s leading opponent, Fernando

Haddad, is the hand-picked successor of Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, the Workers’ Party’s former president, known as Lula, who is currently serving a 12-year prison sentence for corruption and money laundering, specifically on account of having accepted a beachfront apartment as a bribe. The Car Wash probe, which began in 2014, revealed a system of kickbacks that linked Brazil’s majority-state-owned oil company, construction companies, and politicians. Disgust with such practices is driving voters of all kinds toward the populist insurgent.

But the issue that may have the most specific traction with women is safety. In the last ten years, 553,000 people have been killed in Brazil. In 2017, an average of 175 people were murdered every day; that’s seven people per hour. The number of Brazilians killed by criminal violence in the last 14 years rivals that of the Syrian war dead.

This pervasive insecurity has left women particularly vulnerable. More than 60,000 women were raped in 2017; another 1,133 were killed because of their gender, and 606 cases of domestic violence were registered every day. Recent polling shows that 69 percent of the female electorate is afraid of violence, compared to 54 percent of male voters. Another poll has 43 percent of women favoring the death penalty, and 75 percent supporting lowering the minimum age at which accused criminals should be tried as adults. Such numbers suggest a female constituency for the law and order politics that Bolsonaro represents, regardless of the candidate’s incendiary remarks.

In 2017, an average of 175 people were murdered every day; that’s seven people per hour.
If the conservative bent of a good part of Brazil’s female electorate seems surprising in an era of transnational feminism, it may not be so surprising inside Brazil. Five decades ago, women were at the forefront of the opposition to President João Goulart that culminated in a military coup and twenty years of right-wing dictatorship. The coup rode the back of a conservative civilian movement, known as the Family March with God for Freedom, which was arranged by the Female Civic Union and the Women’s Campaign for Democracy. These conservative Brazilians objected to the president’s reform program, which was to culminate in the redistribution of goods and land, and which they perceived as communist infiltration on behalf of a “unionist republic.” On March 19, 1964—a day dedicated to Saint Joseph, patron of families—half a million women marched in São Paulo with rosaries in hand. That month, a junta displaced Goulart.

After the military regime fell in 1985 and the Soviet Union collapsed in 1989, a Pink Tide—characterized by the rise of left-leaning political parties—washed over Brazil and the rest of Latin America. The fall of communism and the failure of neoliberalism to generate Latin American prosperity opened a space for left-wing politicians and progressive economic policies. From the 1990s through the early 2000s, leftist figures such as Evo Morales in Bolivia, Néstor Kirchner in Argentina, and Hugo Chávez in Venezuela swept to power in presidential elections. Lula, a metalworker, trade unionist, and founder of the Workers’ Party, was Brazil’s answer to that moment when he became president in 2003. But the promise of those years was quickly swamped by corruption, self-dealing, and spiraling violence.

Today a crisis of trust in institutions, from law enforcement to schools and hospitals, has led many Brazilian women to see Bolsonaro—whose middle name means Messiah—as a savior who can rescue them from the country’s chaos. Brazilians see their country as highly corrupt, and 26 percent of Brazilian women are voting for Bolsonaro because they don’t want another four years under Lula’s Party.

The conservative wave that has replaced the Pink Tide has a cultural dimension. Many Brazilian conservatives associate feminism with what they see as a decadent and discredited left. Overall, 58 percent of Brazilians are considered highly conservative today. Eighty-two percent of Brazilian women are against the legalization of abortion and 40 percent are against same-sex marriage. Moreover, Brazil has a burgeoning evangelical population, which makes up 22 percent of the electorate and counting: Catholics are projected to become a religious minority by 2030. Bolsonaro has capitalized on this increasing social conservatism by assuming the mantle of “family values.”

Women were at the forefront of the opposition to President João Goulart that culminated in a military coup and twenty years of right-wing dictatorship.

For many Brazilian women, choosing their new president will be a balancing act. Women make up more than half of the country’s total electorate. The number of female-headed households more than doubled between 2001 and 2015, and more than half of all Brazilians with graduate degrees are women. And yet Brazilian women experience higher rates of poverty and unemployment, and lower levels of political participation, than men.

Alongside their more liberal peers, conservative Brazilian women will go to the polls on Sunday and help decide their country’s future. If they choose to elect Bolsonaro, they will ensure his already likely victory and once again pull Brazil to the right.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/brazil/2018-10-26/women-bolsonaro

One word Gelico, religion is the reason why

To answer your question

religion?  your article barely mentions religion.

it seemed more about violence, crime, corruption, lack of trust in the institutions than religion.

as for the stats on abortion and same sex marriage, i would say many many people are against abortion but not because of religion as such.  according to the article 40% are against same sex marriage  which would mean 60% favour it, or couldn't care less about it.

doesn't sound so much like religious fervour to me

Absolutely down to religious views, that hold conservative views on women

That is evident not by just mentioning religion, but religious beliefs in there

Your assumptions based on abortion on numbers, is based on what exactly?

You are talking about a country deeply set in catholicism for centuries and people religious Christian conservative are quite happy, as seen in history. To go down the path of the Far right. Happened, in Italy, Germany, Spain, Croatian, Hungarian, Bulgarian, Romanian etc

Yes some of this will be down to crime and the economy and corruption, but how will he be any different?

By being tough on crime and corruption...!


He was saying about relaxing gun laws so that law abiding citizens can have the tools to protect themselves.

Surely that is a necessary and good thing with such out of control violent crimes and murders going on...!

Eilzel wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:If you believe the loony left losing party propaganda...


Who were booted out of govt for bringing economic ruin, epidemic corruption and massive rise in crime...

Is anything I said there not true? There are direct quotes confirming some of those things.

So aside from a flimsy party name, (and I assume you don't think he's actually a socialist) what makes him not Far-Right?

And there really is little surprising about a leader of a developing country being corrupt. It would surprising if they weren't. You think this guy won't be?

I see he completely dodged this, as per usual mate

Countless leaders for years have claimed to be tough on crime and always been in the hands of the pockets of the criminals

Many areas have been for decades no go areas and why its been so difficult to crack down on crime, as they are basically criminal communities

Tommy Monk wrote:By being tough on crime and corruption...!


He was saying about relaxing gun laws so that law abiding citizens can have the tools to protect themselves.

Surely that is a necessary and good thing with such out of control violent crimes and murders going on...!

Regardless, tommy, those are contemporary RW issues. The labels on parties are just causes that were popular 100-years ago.

I don't understand how Tommy, and all of those staunchly conservative reactionaries in Brazil itself, believes that a far-right wing dictatorship will mean prosperity and safer communities...

Going on the evidence of two decades under their previous military dictatorship, what we can expect from the far right's resurgence will inevitably be :

A stalled economy,
Increased control by big businesses,
Increased unemployment,
A return to the "disappeared children" of the 1980s,
Increased homelessness,
Increased deforestation,
Increasing pollution,
A return to genocide of native communities..

"We've seen it all before".

Party names and labels are rabbit-holes for the less thoughtful to jump into, and from which they build their arguments.

How often have you heard them argue that Nazism is a name for National Socialism, and thus it is a socialist movement. No critical argument, just name association.

Elected through democracy...


And quill... your last post is describing exactly what the lefty's do with their attempts to throw labels around and then build their arguments around these labels...

Yawn...

Two days so far, and Tommy is still celebrating !!!

The merry li'l munchkin must be pissed as a fart by now !!!

You have to remember, Wolfie, that according to Tommy, the WHOLE world is far left wing.

Tommy Monk wrote:Yawn...

Typical tommy, cannot respond to any points counter to your own so resort to 'yawn, waffle' and repeating yourself. Don't put too much stress on the old brain cell eh

I was yawning at veyas post of waffle...

And let's not forget that many of the posters here are regularly running away from answering when I ask them to explain things...

Eilzel wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Yawn...

Typical tommy, cannot respond to any points counter to your own so resort to 'yawn, waffle' and repeating yourself. Don't put too much stress on the old brain cell eh

He has still avoided your points

This seems to be his trait all the time these days

But Tommy is Far right, which is evident always defending the Far right

He seems think to think Far right Politics does not exist

Tommy Monk wrote:I was yawning at veyas post of waffle...

Dodged countless points and questions

Hence it is a complete yawn, when you fail to do so

I didn't dodge anything... I already answered...


Nothing he said = far right...


And I already asked you to define what it is that warrants a party being called 'far right' on another thread... and you ran away...

Oh here we go again denial from Tommy

Debate over, when he refuses to actually answer any points or questions

Go talk to the mirror Tommy, I am sure you will find a great debate there with yourself

Eilzel wrote:The new president is apparently a pro-gun, pro-torture, anti-gay Christian who has sworn to drive out communists.

So about as far-right as is possible to be.

Of course, in tommy's book the Democratic Republic of Korea is a free and functioning model of democracy

For didge...

Tommy Monk wrote:

People have had enough of the lefty agenda and the economic doom and corruption and huge crime that came with it...


Nothing you said = far right...

And my reply... for didge...

Now... didge... Les... and anyone else...


If you think the above accusations are the requirements to define a political party as 'far right'... and they are just sweeping generalised accusations from leftys tbh...


Can you explain how the BNP or le pens party fit into this often accused label of far right, by this above listed criteria..?



Or do you just admit that there is no real criteria necessary for you to throw the accusation of far right at anyone except for the fact that you don't like them... being that they don't fully follow your own pre approved lefty agenda... and you think this is justification alone, and try to throw abusive labels to try to undermine the credibility of others legitimate political views...???

Tommy Monk wrote:Now... didge... Les... and anyone else...


If you think the above accusations are the requirements  to define a political party as 'far right'... and they are just sweeping generalised accusations from leftys tbh...


Can you explain how the BNP or le pens party fit into this often accused label of far right, by this above listed criteria..?



Or do you just admit that there is no real criteria necessary for you to throw the accusation of far right at anyone except for the fact that you don't like them... being that they don't fully follow your own pre approved lefty agenda... and you think this is justification alone, and try to throw abusive labels to try to undermine the credibility of others legitimate political views...???

Far-Right, in all its iterations (in Nazi Germany, Mussolini's Italy and various Latin American regimes) is characterised by extreme social conservatism, anti-leftism, Nationalism and authoritarianism.

From the new Brazilian President it is already absolutely clear the new government ticks all those boxes. Respectively, homophobia and being pro-guns are socially conservative positions; claiming to clamp down on "communists" is attacking the leftist opposition; and removing all criticism of Facism, as well as supporting torture, is clearly authoritarianism.

If you think being Far-Right is solely to do with economic views then you grossly simplify political ideologies.

You hinted at the party not being RW because it had the word 'social' in it earlier, care to elaborate?

Do you think the Kim regime is democratic due to the country's name?

if I may just pour some cold water in here......

authoritarian far right does NOT equate to pro gun......

hitlers germany removed all private guns......disarmed the population totally

Lord Foul wrote:if I may just pour some cold water in here......

authoritarian far right does NOT equate to pro gun......

hitlers germany removed all private guns......disarmed the population totally

No, but pro gun does = social conservatism, which as I said is one of the key features of Far Right politics.

That doesn't mean all Far Right governments are the same in every aspect.

sorry eil but anti gun = lefty paranoid agenda.........at least in countries with adequate gun laws...like britain , where the looney left are trying and sworn to ban all gun ownership on the flimsy pretext that "it will save lives" etc etc etc.....when the reality is IT WONT...because the vast (99.999%) of gun crimes are perpetrated by criminals with unregistered and illegal weapons.....

I was more interested in the name 'social liberal'... tbh...


And not being pro homosexual, ie not lording homosexuality into some super status that it is not worthy of.... is hardly being anti homosexual, ie advocating the persecution of homosexuals and death by throwing them off buildings etc...


A middle ground would be to promote heterosexuality and marriage etc... but to let the homosexuals do their thing among themselves, without persecution, but not promoted as right either...!


A sensible middle ground approach...!

Lord Foul wrote:sorry eil but anti gun = lefty paranoid agenda.........at least in countries with adequate gun laws...like britain , where the looney left are trying and sworn to ban all gun ownership on the flimsy pretext that "it will save lives" etc etc etc.....when the reality is IT WONT...because the vast (99.999%) of gun crimes are perpetrated by criminals with unregistered and illegal weapons.....

Tbf, most countries oppose mass ownership of any kind of guns. A tiny, insignificant, minority of people actually want to ban all gun ownership in the UK.

And regardless, you are pointing out only one part of what I said (probably because it is something you care deeply about, I expect).

Today, you will find most LW minded people in opposition to liberal gun laws. While in the Americas at least, support of guns is usually RW.

why "promote" either....just let folks live and let live........

Tommy Monk wrote:I was more interested in the name 'social liberal'... tbh...


And not being pro homosexual, ie not lording homosexuality into some super status that it is not worthy of.... is hardly being anti homosexual, ie advocating the persecution of homosexuals and death by throwing them off buildings etc...


A middle ground would be to promote heterosexuality and marriage etc... but to let the homosexuals do their thing among themselves, without persecution, but not promoted as right either...!


A sensible middle ground approach...!

Actually, a middle ground (i.e. fair) approach would be, if you're going to "promote" heterosexuality, you must also "promote" homosexuality.

Of course, it's not about promoting either, it's about accepting. And since there are far more straight people than gay people, of course we're talking about accepting that some people are homosexual and that's okay. Nothing to be tossed off a building over, and nothing to be labeled "unnatural" over.

You, Tommy, basically say, "Okay, I think what they do is wrong and unnatural but I don't throw them off buildings for doing it." You thus deem yourself better, but you're not really, because those tossing gays off buildings totally agree with you. They'd ask you why you don't act on your beliefs, as they do.

They wouldn't see you as more tolerant of homosexuality, since you agree with them. They'd see you as weak, because you don't live out your beliefs.

Tommy Monk wrote:I was more interested in the name 'social liberal'... tbh...


And not being pro homosexual, ie not lording homosexuality into some super status that it is not worthy of.... is hardly being anti homosexual, ie advocating the persecution of homosexuals and death by throwing them off buildings etc...


A middle ground would be to promote heterosexuality and marriage etc... but to let the homosexuals do their thing among themselves, without persecution, but not promoted as right either...!


A sensible middle ground approach...!

You focus on one thing, homosexuality (your favourite topic...), showing you have no answers to the other points. Incidentally, a man who says he'd rather his son die in a car crash than be gay, is obviously anti-homosexuality.

Liberal doesn't even mean LW in all contexts either. In Australia the Liberal Party is conservative/RW.

So social liberal in a party name is meaningless if the stances are not liberal at all.

This is your problem, tommy, you get too strung up on names of things. Which is why you continue to be unable to say that North Korea is NOT democratic, despite the word democratic being in the country's name

Eilzel wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:sorry eil but anti gun = lefty paranoid agenda.........at least in countries with adequate gun laws...like britain , where the looney left are trying and sworn to ban all gun ownership on the flimsy pretext that "it will save lives" etc etc etc.....when the reality is IT WONT...because the vast (99.999%) of gun crimes are perpetrated by criminals with unregistered and illegal weapons.....

Tbf, most countries oppose mass ownership of any kind of guns. A tiny, insignificant, minority of people actually want to ban all gun ownership in the UK.

And regardless, you are pointing out only one part of what I said (probably because it is something you care deeply about, I expect).

Today, you will find most LW minded people in opposition to liberal gun laws. While in the Americas at least, support of guns is usually RW.

and YET they ALSO are in opposition to laws and adequate sentencing that will protect the very people from whom they wish to remove guns

the REAL L/W ers would force everyone to throw open their properties to the burglar, require us to make the a cup of tea and allow them to rape our wives and daughters......
Instead of saying ok...go ahead and kick his feckin head in......

Lord Foul wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:sorry eil but anti gun = lefty paranoid agenda.........at least in countries with adequate gun laws...like britain , where the looney left are trying and sworn to ban all gun ownership on the flimsy pretext that "it will save lives" etc etc etc.....when the reality is IT WONT...because the vast (99.999%) of gun crimes are perpetrated by criminals with unregistered and illegal weapons.....

Tbf, most countries oppose mass ownership of any kind of guns. A tiny, insignificant, minority of people actually want to ban all gun ownership in the UK.

And regardless, you are pointing out only one part of what I said (probably because it is something you care deeply about, I expect).

Today, you will find most LW minded people in opposition to liberal gun laws. While in the Americas at least, support of guns is usually RW.

and YET they ALSO are in opposition to laws and adequate sentencing that will protect the very people from whom they wish to remove guns

the REAL L/W ers would force everyone to throw open their properties to the burglar, require us to make the a cup of tea and allow them to rape our wives and daughters......
Instead of saying ok...go ahead and kick his feckin head in......

You know, I sometimes think your mind makes connections that just aren't there to be made

Some LWers call for soft sentencing, not all, not even most. Certainly not me.

And no LWers would ask for the nonsense in your last paragraph. Just hyperbole and silliness

Eilzel wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:sorry eil but anti gun = lefty paranoid agenda.........at least in countries with adequate gun laws...like britain , where the looney left are trying and sworn to ban all gun ownership on the flimsy pretext that "it will save lives" etc etc etc.....when the reality is IT WONT...because the vast (99.999%) of gun crimes are perpetrated by criminals with unregistered and illegal weapons.....

Tbf, most countries oppose mass ownership of any kind of guns. A tiny, insignificant, minority of people actually want to ban all gun ownership in the UK.

And regardless, you are pointing out only one part of what I said (probably because it is something you care deeply about, I expect).

Today, you will find most LW minded people in opposition to liberal gun laws. While in the Americas at least, support of guns is usually RW.

and YET they ALSO are in opposition to laws and adequate sentencing that will protect the very people from whom they wish to remove guns

the REAL L/W ers would force everyone to throw open their properties to the burglar, require us to make the a cup of tea and allow them to rape our wives and daughters......
Instead of saying ok...go ahead and kick his feckin head in......

You know, I sometimes think your mind makes connections that just aren't there to be made

Some LWers call for soft sentencing, not all, not even most. Certainly not me.

And no LWers would ask for the nonsense in your last paragraph. Just hyperbole and silliness

maybe, but its L/W ideology that prevents an outraged home owner exacting a terrible but fair price upon the person of a home invader.

you cannot deny that the courts are playing to a L/W agenda with their soft sentencing, as per the paltry 4 years handed to the killer of that chap as discussed on a different thread.
Or that proper sentencing is lacking.....when the Dp was removed as an option we were promised that life would MEAN life...with very very few exceptions this now means life means...er...about 7 years on average.......

oh and the issue of guns and home invaders (or rather what to do with em) are two seperate issues...I'm not suggesting guns are a good way of home defense...they are not, at least not in this country...too crowded and too much risk of strays...not to mention they are not necessarily the best way in any case...too fiddly imo.....

now a length of iron pipe or   a baseball bat........