Patients should be charged for GP and hospital visits to fund NHS, leading doctors say

Patients should be charged for GP and hospital visits, leading doctors say.

The British Medical Association (BMA) will vote next week on whether to lobby the Government to introduce alternative ways to fund the NHS.

The radical move, which would end the principle of an NHS free at the point of delivery, will be discussed at the BMA's annual conference on Monday.

Those backing the proposal say charges are preferable to the "covert rationing" of healthcare which they say has become endemic.

And they said fees to see doctors would discourage people with minor ailments from clogging up GP surgeries.

A number of doctors have previously called for the introduction of a £25 fee to see GPs, but so far the BMA has not endorsed the policy.

Earlier this year polling of GPs found eight in 10 were in favour of charges for some services.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/22/patients-should-charged-gp-hospital-visits-fund-nhs-leading/

The NHS is a guarantee of medical care. To require payment of any sort is to renege on that guarantee.

Original Quill wrote:The NHS is a guarantee of medical care.  To require payment of any sort is to renege on that guarantee.

I agree, but this is actually coming from doctors on this.

I appreciate that. But physicians are not experts on economics. The question of what should be covered, and how, is a moral question, not a medical question.

I agree that physicians are closer to the needs of patients, and the costly equipment to deliver those needs, but as soon as they enter the realm of what result is wanted--life or death, health or no--it's a moral question.

Original Quill wrote:I appreciate that.  But physicians are not experts on economics.  The question of what should be covered, and how, is a moral question, not a medical question.

I agree that physicians are closer to the needs of patients, and the costly equipment to deliver those needs, but as soon as they enter the realm of what result is wanted--life or death, health or no--it's a moral question.

I agree that they are not experts on economics, though I am sure many have more than a working understanding and maybe more. So is it wrong then, for them to think outside the box here, to come up with alternative solutions, to an already failed system?

No, even though, I do not agree with their solution, the reality is, the NHS at present is unworkable

Hence why to me, we should be looking at systems in other nations, that do work and are finnacially viable. That still are free at the point of entry.

Nothing wrong with thinking outside of the box.  When I say it's a moral question, I don't mean to exclude the physician or any medical personnel.  I only say that they have no particular, special qualification to to make such a moral decision.

If the NHS is unworkable as presently funded, it's everyone's problem.  I would suggest that perhaps cuts in military spending should be looked into.  Both the NHS and the military are there to protect people from harm...if one hand needs to help the other hand, why not?  It's the health of the whole body (nation) that matters.

Original Quill wrote:Nothing wrong with thinking outside of the box.  When I say it's a moral question, I don't mean to exclude the physician or any medical personnel.  I only say that they have no particular, special qualification to to make such a moral decision.

If the NHS is unworkable as presently constituted, it's everyone's problem.  I would suggest that perhaps cuts in military spending should be looked into.  Both the NHS and the military are there to protect people from harm...if one hand needs to help the other hand, why not?

Yeah but again thinking that money is the answer. Is just throwing money at the problem, which is throwing good money after bad. So cutting money from the military will not change the problems of the NHS. Even the latest policy by the British goverment to inject 20 billion into the NHS, will be nothing more than a very short term fix. Again its the very system that is the issue here. Which is again, in light of today, with an ever growing population, unworkable.

Hence the need to adopt a far better and workable system, that we see elsewhere in the world.

No other country in this world has ever adopted the NHS system. That is enough evidence to see, other countries have looked at this system and seen that it is in itself unworkable and why they took good elements from this and adapted and evolved better systems.

So cutting money from the military would have no real benefit here, when already the Governement has set out a plan to raise taxes, which nobody will have an issue on. As they care about the health service. Like I say though, it will only be a momentary fix to the problem

Didge wrote:

Original Quill wrote:Nothing wrong with thinking outside of the box.  When I say it's a moral question, I don't mean to exclude the physician or any medical personnel.  I only say that they have no particular, special qualification to to make such a moral decision.

If the NHS is unworkable as presently constituted, it's everyone's problem.  I would suggest that perhaps cuts in military spending should be looked into.  Both the NHS and the military are there to protect people from harm...if one hand needs to help the other hand, why not?

Yeah but again thinking that money is the answer. Is just throwing money at the problem, which is throwing good money after bad. So cutting money from the military will not change the problems of the NHS. Even the latest policy by the British goverment to inject 20 billion into the NHS, will be nothing more than a very short term fix. Again its the very system that is the issue here. Which is again, in light of today, with an ever growing population, unworkable.

Hence the need to adopt a far better and workable system, that we see elsewhere in the world.

No other country in this world has ever adopted the NHS system. That is enough evidence to see, other countries have looked at this system and seen that it is in itself unworkable and why they took good elements from this and adapted and evolved better systems.

So cutting money from the military would have no real benefit here, when already the Governement has set out a plan to raise taxes, which nobody will have an issue on. As they care about the health service. Like I say though, it will only be a momentary fix to the problem

Well, if money isn't the need, apply the same answer to whatever is the need.

When you realise that most Doctors are on £100,000 a year, £25 a visit is nothing to them.

nicko wrote:When you realise that most Doctors are on £100,000 a year,    £25 a visit is nothing to them.

I dont begrudge doctors getting a hundred grand a year Nicko

They utterly deserve it in the main. They work hard and work ridiculous hours, putting up with the worst kind of negative shit daily.

I could not do it, could you?

I suggest that there should be a charge levied if a patient after triage, still insists on clogging up the Drs or A&E with trivia that is "fixable at home".

WHY do parents feel the need to attend A&E with little Johnny who has a minor splinter that could just as easily be dug out at home with a needle sterilised in a lighter flame, followed by a wipe of 2% peroxide??????? By age 8 us kids in my village could do that for ourselves FFS.

Lord Foul wrote:I suggest that there should be a charge levied if a patient after triage, still insists on clogging up the Drs or A&E with trivia that is "fixable at home".

WHY do parents feel the need to attend A&E with little Johnny who has a minor splinter that could just as easily be dug out at home with a needle sterilised in a lighter flame, followed by a wipe of 2% peroxide???????  By age 8 us kids in my village could do that for ourselves FFS.

But and its a big but. Its not the patients fault. Its the system mate. Its the NHS 111 system, where many problems are adivsed to be then attended at A&E, because they cannot rule out a potential problem. The system can only be reliant on the answers that people give. Most parents now phone this system and now are advised to attend A&E. Because the system is flawed and the parents think the worst. Most already are swayed on what they read online and have already decided what is wrong, never knowing. They self diagnosed online

You are only then reliant on the caller and person taking the call. The laters actions then determine how the former then answers. Its why civillians with little medical knowledge. Should never be call handlers and why the NHS 111 system is completely flawed. You need proper medically trained people to take such calls, but sadly this country cuts courners

There should be a doctor to triage patients at A&E receptioon, not a nurse.

People do tend to want medical intervention for minor injuries that we took care of at home these days, added to this is the problem of seeing your GP, its about two weeks around here, so people go to A & E.
We used to be able to go to our local surgery on the day you felt ill or had a problem, you might have needed to wait an hour or so but you were seen, you could also get a home visit on the same day, these days you have to be over 75 or terminal to have that, then there was evening surgery. The doctor was also available for out of hours three days a week then the other partner would do four nights and then swap the nights the next week the surgeries here were usually two doctors ad sometimes a trainee GP. We also had a district nurse who usually lived where she worked and everyone knew her. GP's and district nurses attended accidents and ran the accident dept. at the local cottage hospital ref: The Royal and Heartbeat. Our GP'sattended births, if required, stitched injuries and knew the families and were very much respected and trusted by the community, there was a relationship, in fact one had been born in and went to school in the community, so everyone knew him, the whole village was proud when 'one of theirs' he went off to medical school and decided to return to his village to practise. Although I must admit medicine is a lot more technical now.

Vintage wrote: People do tend to want medical intervention for minor injuries that we took care of at home these days, added to this is the problem of seeing your GP, its about two weeks around here, so people go to A & E.
We used to be able to go to our local surgery on the day you felt ill or had a problem, you might have needed to wait an hour or so but you were seen, you could also get a home visit on the same day, these days you have to be over 75 or terminal to have that, then there was evening surgery. The doctor was also available for out of hours three days a week then the other partner would do four nights and then swap the nights the next week the surgeries here were usually two doctors ad sometimes a trainee GP. We also had a district nurse who usually lived where she worked and everyone knew her. GP's and district nurses attended accidents and ran  the accident dept. at the local cottage hospital  ref: The Royal and Heartbeat. Our GP'sattended births, if required, stitched injuries and knew the families and were very much respected and trusted by the community, there was a relationship, in fact one had been born in and went to school in the community, so everyone knew him, the whole village was proud when 'one of theirs' he went off to medical school and decided to return to his village to practise.  Although I must admit medicine is a lot more technical now.

Sorry but that is essentially babble vintage

I do not do hearsay and havingworked in the NHS, I do not buy bollocks

There is plenty of wrongs and what is wrong, is how people now diagnose online and then sway conversations to doctors, then misleading them

The one thing that is better is where there is minor injuries

There is now minor injuries units to tackle these problems

People originally wasted the GP's time over this. As they can do very little to fuck all about it

I dont believe you have to wait two weeks either for an appointment

Most surgeries are on appoinment only on the day. So you are talking bollocks

People have to call in and its rightly dependent on the severity of the problem

Also you will get a home visit dependent on the severity, not age, so you are talking bollocks

So please dont talk nonsense

I gave Vintage a green because that's exactly as I REMEMBER IT !

nicko wrote:I gave Vintage a green because that's exactly as I REMEMBER IT !

Well what do you remember Nicko?


Your own experince or how I have worked and seen doctors flat out seeing patients all over Kent, no matter their age.

What she said was essentially bollocks, because she has absolutely no idea

I do and have worked for many years seeing patients suffer, from those palliative to those needing a house call

So when Vintage claims to know something, her experince is only based on the limited experince she knows, where as I, have had to deal with this

Hence to me, she is talking bullshit

I have seen what doctors and district Nurses have top go through, but Vintage in her limited understanding has no idea

They both have a moutain to climb to get out to mant patients. Its why I have loads of respect for them

So when I say she is talking shit, she is talking shit

Don't you dare call me a liar, you brat, that is how it was and don't you say what I remember is bollocks, who you think you are I really don't know. If anyone around here is talking bollocks its you, as usual. Anyone in my age group will verify how it was. Our surgery used to have a call in the morning to get an appointment, you hung on the phone for 10 or 20 minutes only to get through and find the appointments gone, now its changed I went there last
Friday and was told I could get an appointment on the 25th of June.
The whole problem people complain about around the country is not being able to get appointments or haven't you noticed the news.
If you can't reply with some with some decorum please don't reply at all.

Vintage wrote:Don't you dare call me a liar, you brat, that is how it was and don't you say what I remember is bollocks, who you think you are I really don't know. If anyone around here is talking bollocks its you, as usual. Anyone in my age group will verify how it was. Our surgery used to have a call in the morning to get an appointment, you hung on the phone for 10 or 20 minutes only to get through and find the appointments gone, now its changed I went there last
Friday and was told I could get an appointment on the 25th of June.
The whole problem people complain about around the country is not being able to get appointments or haven't you noticed the news.
If you can't reply with some with some decorum please don't reply at all.

hey vin, your post was exactly how I remember it also

My brother was a NHS consultant for many years (retired). Much of the economic mess is down to total mismanagement of funds. Firstly they are hugely in debt now for ever more due to Blairs disastrous ''loans''. Secondly they seem to have contracts with the most expensive suppliers in the world, paying way over the top for everything from bed sheets to light bulbs. Added to that they have way too many vastly overpaid ''managers'' who seem to nothing but make a mess of things.

The whole system could be managed so much better and until it is, no matter how much money you throw at it, it will continue to fail

Vintage wrote:Don't you dare call me a liar, you brat, that is how it was and don't you say what I remember is bollocks, who you think you are I really don't know. If anyone around here is talking bollocks its you, as usual. Anyone in my age group will verify how it was. Our surgery used to have a call in the morning to get an appointment, you hung on the phone for 10 or 20 minutes only to get through and find the appointments gone, now its changed I went there last
Friday and was told I could get an appointment on the 25th of June.
The whole problem people complain about around the country is not being able to get appointments or haven't you noticed the news.
If you can't reply with some with some decorum please don't reply at all.

You are full of shit and a liar, as you can only get appointments on the day, if needed. Only things like special appointments are made in advance. So you are full of shit

These are facts, because I have worked for the NHS and know when idiots talk crap and you are talking crap

You do so to fuel your regressive xenophobic agenda, so dont tell me what I know, when you know jack shit on this

I am not going to show a liar decorum, simple as that

If you lie, then expect to be treated as such

Got it?

gelico wrote:

Vintage wrote:Don't you dare call me a liar, you brat, that is how it was and don't you say what I remember is bollocks, who you think you are I really don't know. If anyone around here is talking bollocks its you, as usual. Anyone in my age group will verify how it was. Our surgery used to have a call in the morning to get an appointment, you hung on the phone for 10 or 20 minutes only to get through and find the appointments gone, now its changed I went there last
Friday and was told I could get an appointment on the 25th of June.
The whole problem people complain about around the country is not being able to get appointments or haven't you noticed the news.
If you can't reply with some with some decorum please don't reply at all.

hey vin, your post was exactly how I remember it also

My brother was a NHS consultant for many years (retired).  Much of the economic mess is down to total mismanagement of funds.  Firstly they are hugely in debt now for ever more due to Blairs disastrous ''loans''.  Secondly they seem to have contracts with the most expensive suppliers in the world, paying way over the top for everything from bed sheets to light bulbs.  Added to that they have way too many vastly overpaid ''managers'' who seem to nothing but make a mess of things.

The whole system could be managed so much better and until it is, no matter how much money you throw at it, it will continue to fail

Rememeber?

She made many claims, so what do you remember Gelico?

Seems like you have no idea

So stop also making bullshit claims

What she said was a complete an utter lie, so how on earth do you know by remembering?

Right, here is how I know why Vintage, who I normally respect is either lying or simple ignorant here with the reality here

If she was to ring up Monday to Friday, and say she was having poor asthma for example. The surgery is obligated to then have a GP call her back, if there is no appointments. As its a safety issue. That GP will call back within an hour and no doubt then book an appointment within the day, where such a time scale of appointments is kept free for such emergency appointments by every single GP surgery.

So don't tell me what you think you know Vintage, because either you are ignorant of this or lying. Also the surgery is obligated to book you an appointment, if advised by either 111 or 999 to see you within a time specified after an assessment over the phone. If they fail to do so and try to throb you off, they are doing so illegally. As again they have an obligation to see you

These are facts

Every surgery keeps open a time frame to see patients for appointments daily and have to by law. Its why in OOH you then also have to be seen after an assessment with 111, when they cannot rule out a potential problem within a 48 hour window period over the weekend and 14 hour period every evening.

So dont dare try to claim and say something that is false, you are either ignorant of this or lying.

Otherwise non emergency appointments are not needed nor should they need to be on the same day. If you think they do, thenm that person is just being ridiculous

If you do not believe me Gelico, ask your brother, as I am sure he will back every word I have said

Didge wrote:

Vintage wrote:Don't you dare call me a liar, you brat, that is how it was and don't you say what I remember is bollocks, who you think you are I really don't know. If anyone around here is talking bollocks its you, as usual. Anyone in my age group will verify how it was. Our surgery used to have a call in the morning to get an appointment, you hung on the phone for 10 or 20 minutes only to get through and find the appointments gone, now its changed I went there last
Friday and was told I could get an appointment on the 25th of June.
The whole problem people complain about around the country is not being able to get appointments or haven't you noticed the news.
If you can't reply with some with some decorum please don't reply at all.

You are full of shit and a liar, as you can only get appointments on the day, if needed. Only things like special appointments are made in advance. So you are full of shit

These are facts, because I have worked for the NHS and know when idiots talk crap and you are talking crap

You do so to fuel your regressive xenophobic agenda, so dont tell me what I know, when you know jack shit on this

I am not going to show a liar decorum, simple as that

If you lie, then expect to be treated as such

Got it?

''Our surgery used to have a call in the morning to get an appointment, you hung on the phone for 10 or 20 minutes only to get through and find the appointments gone''


actually didge, that's exactly what we have here too.

what right have you got to be branding people a liar just because you have a different experience or disagree

don't be so disgustingly rude

can't you just grow up a bit and debate like a decent civilised human being?

gelico wrote:

Didge wrote:


You are full of shit and a liar, as you can only get appointments on the day, if needed. Only things like special appointments are made in advance. So you are full of shit

These are facts, because I have worked for the NHS and know when idiots talk crap and you are talking crap

You do so to fuel your regressive xenophobic agenda, so dont tell me what I know, when you know jack shit on this

I am not going to show a liar decorum, simple as that

If you lie, then expect to be treated as such

Got it?

''Our surgery used to have a call in the morning to get an appointment, you hung on the phone for 10 or 20 minutes only to get through and find the appointments gone''


actually didge, that's exactly what we have here too.

what right have you got to be branding people a liar just because you have a different experience or disagree

don't be so disgustingly rude

can't you just grow up a bit and debate like a decent civilised human being?

Because she is lying it takes about two weeks to get an appointment

Like you just said, you have to call up on the day

As only emergency appointments are taken

Or do you think for every runny nose you should get an appointment?

You want me to grow up, when she was lying

Seriously, get your priorities straight love

Again for those with very slow brains

Right, here is how I know why Vintage, who I normally respect is either lying or simple ignorant here with the reality here

If she was to ring up Monday to Friday, and say she was having poor asthma for example. The surgery is obligated to then have a GP call her back, if there is no appointments. As its a safety issue. That GP will call back within an hour and no doubt then book an appointment within the day, where such a time scale of appointments is kept free for such emergency appointments by every single GP surgery.

So don't tell me what you think you know Vintage, because either you are ignorant of this or lying. Also the surgery is obligated to book you an appointment, if advised by either 111 or 999 to see you within a time specified after an assessment over the phone. If they fail to do so and try to throb you off, they are doing so illegally. As again they have an obligation to see you

These are facts

Every surgery keeps open a time frame to see patients for appointments daily and have to by law. Its why in OOH you then also have to be seen after an assessment with 111, when they cannot rule out a potential problem within a 48 hour window period over the weekend and 14 hour period every evening.

So dont dare try to claim and say something that is false, you are either ignorant of this or lying.

Otherwise non emergency appointments are not needed nor should they need to be on the same day. If you think they do, thenm that person is just being ridiculous

If you do not believe me Gelico, ask your brother, as I am sure he will back every word I have said

nicko wrote:When you realise that most Doctors are on £100,000 a year,    £25 a visit is nothing to them.

I believe this topic addresses patients and their needs, not doctors.  Here is the excerpt from the OP article:

Telegraph wrote:Patients should be charged for GP and hospital visits, leading doctors say.

The British Medical Association (BMA) will vote next week on whether to lobby the Government to introduce alternative ways to fund the NHS.

"Leading DOCTORS say ?

Lord Foul wrote:I suggest that there should be a charge levied if a patient after triage, still insists on clogging up the Drs or A&E with trivia that is "fixable at home".

WHY do parents feel the need to attend A&E with little Johnny who has a minor splinter that could just as easily be dug out at home with a needle sterilised in a lighter flame, followed by a wipe of 2% peroxide???????  By age 8 us kids in my village could do that for ourselves FFS.

Mmmm...that policy might lead to some major misses. E.g., a child with a fever, dismissed as having a cold, dies because it was much worse. Your policy is overbroad.

Besides, it's punitive...healthcare should never be punitive.

nicko wrote: "Leading DOCTORS say ?

Doctors are not qualified to comment on economics. The cost of healthcare is not a liver function. We should listen to physicians about heart rates, not hospital bed costs (unless, perchance, they wish to reduce their own fees ).

Well Didge you are wrong, wrong, wrong, what NHS you worked for I don't know, we used to have call on the day, we don't now, fact, unless its an emergency, too many people were complaining they couldn't get an appointment. People were queueing outside the surgery at 7:30 to get inside and make an appointment when it opened at 8:00 by 8:10 all appointments were gone but we seem to have gone from the frying pan into the fire, if you rang each day, you may just get an appointment eventually, one day or the other. Things may be different where you are. You are an idiot if you think things weren't as I remembered or you are ignoring the fact to fit your agenda. Anyway if you refuse to believe what I say, frankly I don't care - don't call me a liar though or anyone else, you are in no position to know everything about everything all over the country. Why you are so needy in trying to impress everyone with your knowledge, experience and professorial gruffness all the time, I don't know, I do know its getting boring, especially as I've experienced it on other forums, go and try to impress someone else there a good boy, although I believe you are failing miserably with the majority of posters.

Vintage wrote:Well Didge you are wrong, wrong, wrong, what NHS you worked for I don't know, we used to have call on the day, we don't now, fact, unless its an emergency, too many people were complaining they couldn't get an appointment. People were queueing outside the surgery at 7:30 to get inside and make an appointment when it opened at 8:00 by 8:10 all appointments were gone but we seem to have gone from the frying pan into the fire, if you rang each day, you may just get an appointment eventually, one day or the other. Things may be different where you are. You are an idiot if you think things weren't as I remembered or you are ignoring the fact to fit your agenda. Anyway if you refuse to believe what I say, frankly I don't care - don't call me a liar though or anyone else, you are in no position to know everything about everything all over the country. Why you are so needy in trying to impress everyone with your knowledge, experience and professorial gruffness all the time, I don't know, I do know its getting boring, especially as I've experienced it on other forums, go and try to impress someone else there a good boy, although I believe you are failing miserably with the majority of posters.

Well this is why you are either being incredible stupid or lying

Why should you get an appointment to the GP on the same day, unless you truely need to?

I mean seriously, your view is like anyone with say a runny nose should be seen by the GP and its ignorant people like you, who think they have some God given right to be seen. 

Unless there is a complication of your condition.

No you fucking dont

If you have an ongoing condition, then waiting a week or two to be seen again is not an emergency, is it?

Yet people with more pressing medical situations have a more of a right to be seen that day, do they not?

I dont give a flying fuck what you think of me or such babble on forums, on this you are not only selfish, but utterly ignorant.

If you were poorly and really needed to see the GP, that surgery has an obligation to do so and you are just being too wet and should be more assertive. If you were to call NHS 111 and they would after an assessment state, you need to be seen by a GP within 4 hours. That assessment would be sent to the GP. It then becomes your backup, that you need to be seen and how then a surgery has no call to deny you being seen

You know jack shit about this and I can understand you maybe ignorant of this, but you still argue in ignorance here

So stop doing so Vintage, because I do respect you, but here you are talking shit here

Oh do give it a rest you arrogant, ignorant person. No wonder people are finding something else to do.

Vintage wrote:Oh do give it a rest you arrogant, ignorant person. No wonder people are finding something else to do.

Wow

What did I say that was ignorant?

You thinking that you should be given preference on a doctor appointment over people who need a more medical need than you?

Does that make me ignorant or you inherantly selfish, to think you qualify over them?

I am arrogant and also humble when wrong, maybe youi should try it sometime, because I never see you admit to being wrong

As you were emphatically wrong here

So I will issue you with a challenge

Prove any statment I made here on this thread, as wrong?

I know you cannot Vintage, because you are too stubborn and cannot admit you are wrong

So be stupidly ignorant and be in a huff. As it shows you do not want to ever learn from your mistakes

It makes you act like a child

I suggest you place a dummy in your mouth

Okay, lets ask this dipshit, whether she understands what a medical ermegency is?

Lets ask this dipshit, who is not qualified, to say whether and on what medical terms she thinks people should be seen by a GP on that very same day?

Come on dipshit?

Can you answer, or are you going to hide behind posters and words?

The reaility is, you are full of shit

I know more than many people on this, because I have worked many years in the NHS and you by your warped and selfish beliefs are part of the problem

You think you, born geographically, have more say over whether you should be seen by medical professionals.

If you think that Vintage, then fuck off

It then makes you a xenophobic tribalistic twat

The pressing need, is the medical need, not the geographical need

Do you understand that?

I will now ask another question for the xenophobic dipshit

Do you think the NHS should be free on the point of access?

wow

I guess the xenophobic dipshit, ran away and she calls me ignorant

Wow

Seriously Vintage, hide if you want to. My points still stand and show you are emphatically ignorant on this topic

Why couldn't patients pay on a sliding scale? The poorest patients would pay nothing, or very little, and the richest patients would pay more. Sounds equitable to me.

nicko wrote:When you realise that most Doctors are on £100,000 a year,    £25 a visit is nothing to them.

working out the numbers for down here
most private GPs that charge more than the Medicare payment(from Gov't) charge about £10 - £15 (but you get a premium service)
then there are also Medical centres that are essentially free to the patient and just charge the Medicare payment (we all have a Medicare card that is a bit like an ID or Credit Card)

the gov't Medicare payment is probably about £25 - £35