Families of violent criminals 'should be evicted from their council homes', says Home Office minister amid escalating attacks on UK streets

The families of violent criminals and those ‘exploiting young people’ should be evicted from their council homes, it was reported last night.

Victoria Atkins, a Home Office minister, became the first minister to support the toughened stance to criminals who were ‘making the lives of local residents a misery’ lost their accommodation and added that the Government had ‘changed the law to enable it to happen’.

The scheme, which has been employed in north London, comes at a time of escalating violence on Britain’s streets. It based in an area where at least 14 gangs are thought to operate, the newspaper claimed.

She told the Daily Telegraph: ‘In the most serious cases, with these people who are exploiting young people, making the lives of local residents a misery, putting fear into people’s hearts when they’re picking children up from the school gates, I think absolutely they should understand the consequences of their criminal behaviour.’

Her comments follow a wave of moped attacks across London as well as an unprecedented number of murders in the capital, this year. There have been nearly 1,300 stabbings since January, while the number of investigations into possession of a weapon being dropped by police has increased by 150 per cent in the past two years.

She added that parents should take responsibility for their children by counting the number of kitchen knives they owned to prevent them being used as weapons.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5876227/Families-violent-criminals-evicted-council-homes.html

Ummm...should the sins of the father be visited on the child? If so, why?

Original Quill wrote:Ummm...should the sins of the father be visited on the child?  If so, why?

Interesting, but should not parents be morally responsible for ensuring or at least trying to help prevent their kids turning to crime?

Also, whether they have been responsible in turning them towards crime?

Who is it to say and agree on your enquiry, as whether others are responsible for the wrongs of others.

It might though help inject a view into parents to do better at helping prevent their children turning to crime.

As then the actions of the child, is then going to effect the rest of the family

Am at a cross roads on this

The only theory by which a relative should be held responsible, would be if the relative had a duty to instruct or police the activity of the principle.

Other than a parent--and then only with a child or a custodial charge--I don't see any natural responsibility.

Original Quill wrote:The only theory by which a relative should be held responsible, would be if the relative had a duty to instruct or police the activity of the principle.

Other than a parent--and then only with a child or a custodial charge--I don't see any natural responsibility.

You do realise this already is in practice in another country in the world regarding terrorism?

Can you think where, in fact they demolish the house, which I think is also wrong?

Again the council house is there to help families that struggle. I see some merit here, but am at odds. With how then families, who could well be innocent of any influence on the child turing to crime, being then punished through this

Didge wrote:

Original Quill wrote:The only theory by which a relative should be held responsible, would be if the relative had a duty to instruct or police the activity of the principle.

Other than a parent--and then only with a child or a custodial charge--I don't see any natural responsibility.

You do realise this already is in practice in another country in the world regarding terrorism?

Can you think where, in fact they demolish the house, which I think is also wrong?

Again the council house is there to help families that struggle. I see some merit here, but am at odds. With how then families, who could well be innocent of any influence on the child turing to crime, being then punished through this

I can imagine that some cultures focus on the family unit over the individual. But Anglo-American law requires a focus on the individual, and then only with mens rea

Original Quill wrote:

Didge wrote:


You do realise this already is in practice in another country in the world regarding terrorism?

Can you think where, in fact they demolish the house, which I think is also wrong?

Again the council house is there to help families that struggle. I see some merit here, but am at odds. With how then families, who could well be innocent of any influence on the child turing to crime, being then punished through this

I can imagine that some cultures focus on the family unit over the individual.  But Anglo-American law requires a focus on the individual, and then only with mens rea

I guess you do not know then mate.

In Israel, they actually sometimes demolish the homes of a family, where a member has been a terrorist.

Again I think its wrong and is guilt by association

Didge wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

I can imagine that some cultures focus on the family unit over the individual.  But Anglo-American law requires a focus on the individual, and then only with mens rea

I guess you do not know then mate.

In Israel, they actually sometimes demolish the homes of a family, where a member has been a terrorist.

Again I think its wrong and is guilt by association

I agree. And, I think it serves no purpose. If one is callous enough to kill innocent bystanders, he or she is probably not going to care about family members. Indeed, he probably thinks his siblings will share in the 60 virgins, or whatever.

Original Quill wrote:

Didge wrote:


I guess you do not know then mate.

In Israel, they actually sometimes demolish the homes of a family, where a member has been a terrorist.

Again I think its wrong and is guilt by association

I agree.  And, I think it serves no purpose.  If one is callous enough to kill innocent bystanders, he or she is probably not going to care about family members.  Indeed, he probably thinks his siblings will share in the 60 virgins, or whatever.

I would agree normally, but within this conflict there is a difference here Quill. The Palestinian authority pays such criminals and their families a monthly salary when they murder Israeli, American citizens etc. Thus there is an incentive for then Palestinians to commit crimes, in order for their families to be thus set up for life finnacially.

Its an abhorant policy by the Palestinian authorities, as much as Israel demolishing family homes of terrorists. As it is rewarding people for murder. Thus you also rightly point to the other incentive, that a Muslim based on extreme teaching will think to willingly give their life, believeing all sins are forgiven and believe they are given a free pass into their make believe heaven.

Its why the US senate has recently voted on this very issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Force_Act

Like I say its a disgusting policy, because no Palestinian that murders, rapes ect other Palestinians, recives such salaries. Only those who commit acts of violence against Israeli's, Jews, Western Europeans.

That minister is one heartless dolt, in the way in which she worded her support of that policy...

You could have one 18, 19 or 20 year old son or daughter, or even an uncontrollable 15 or 16 year old, causing the trouble --  and she would be happy to evict the whole family  ?

Rather than simply either banning, or jailing, the culprit himself --  it would be quite a different matter if the whole family is supporting or condoning his/her criminal behaviour..

Didge wrote:I would agree normally, but within this conflict there is a difference here Quill. The Palestinian authority pays such criminals and their families a monthly salary when they murder Israeli, American citizens etc. Thus there is an incentive for then Palestinians to commit crimes, in order for their families to be thus set up for life finnacially.

I'd like to see some substantiation on that.  That sounds suspiciously like Trump's argument that Hispanics are "rapists, murderers and criminals."  Turns out, Hispanics commit fewer crimes than average Americans.  They are certainly better citizens than the average American white supremacist who follows Trump.

Didge wrote:Its why the US senate has recently voted on this very issue.

I think the US Senate is on the right course, denying any monetary or military aid to any nation involved in the middle east conflict. All we are doing by financing Palestine or Israel, is elevating the strife.

Without money, those nations couldn't afford war, could they?  It's water finding it's own level.

Original Quill wrote:

Didge wrote:I would agree normally, but within this conflict there is a difference here Quill. The Palestinian authority pays such criminals and their families a monthly salary when they murder Israeli, American citizens etc. Thus there is an incentive for then Palestinians to commit crimes, in order for their families to be thus set up for life finnacially.

I'd like to see some substantiation on that.  That sounds suspiciously like Trump's argument that Hispanics are "rapists, murderers and criminals."  Turns out, Hispanics commit fewer crimes than average Americans.  They are better citizens that the average American white supremacist who follows Trump.

Didge wrote:Its why the US senate has recently voted on this very issue.

I think the US Senate is on the right course, denying any monetary or military aid to any nation involved in the middle east conflict.  All we are doing is elevating the strife.

Without money, those nations couldn't afford war, could they?  It's water finding it's own level.

This act started before Trump came even to power, did you not even read the link?

Have a read

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund

Again the PLO/Fatah is awarding people when they attack and murder mainly Jews

Not any Palistinians, but those who commit acts of terror against Jews and westerners.

It thus is, alongside the warped religious belief of Martyrdom, an incentive for then people to be inspired to commit appalling acts. No other country in the world awards murderers, (in the legal concept), except the PLO

Didge wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

I'd like to see some substantiation on that.  That sounds suspiciously like Trump's argument that Hispanics are "rapists, murderers and criminals."  Turns out, Hispanics commit fewer crimes than average Americans.  They are better citizens that the average American white supremacist who follows Trump.



I think the US Senate is on the right course, denying any monetary or military aid to any nation involved in the middle east conflict.  All we are doing is elevating the strife.

Without money, those nations couldn't afford war, could they?  It's water finding it's own level.

This act started before Trump came even to power, did you not even read the link?

Have a read

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund

I only mention Trump's argument re: Hispanics as an application of erroneous logic and false premises. Back to the middle east:

Didge wrote:Again the PLO/Fatah is awarding people when they attack and murder mainly Jews

Not any Palistinians, but those who commit acts of terror against Jews and westerners.

It thus is, alongside the warped religious belief of Martyrdom, an incentive for then people to be inspired to commit appaqlling acts. No other country in the world awards murderers, except the PLO

The US aid sent to Palestine is supposed to be for police needs only. If they are misusing it, then of course they should be cut off. Likewise, any US funds sent to Israel should be conditioned on not using it for military. It should be cut off if used for war making.

I have a theory that the US is consciously and intentionally creating wars, and a part of that nefarious scheme is foreign aid. Certainly, cut off any aid where conflict already exists, lest it be used for war. All aid to nations involved in wars in the middle east should be shut down. All it does is finance their wars, and kill more babies.

Original Quill wrote:

Didge wrote:

This act started before Trump came even to power, did you not even read the link?

Have a read

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund

I only mention Trump's argument re: Hispanics as an application of erroneous logic and false premises.  Back to the middle east:

Didge wrote:Well Trump has nothing to do with this

The US aid sent to Palestine is supposed to be for police needs only.  If they are misusing it, then of course they should be cut off.  Likewise, any US funds sent to Israel should be conditioned on not using it for military.  It should be cut off if used for war making.

I have a theory that the US is consciously and intentionally creating wars, and a part of that nefarious scheme is foreign aid.  Certainly, cut off any aid where conflict already exists, lest it be used for war.  All aid to nations involved in wars in the middle east should be shut down.  All it does is finance their wars, and kill more babies.

Okay you say israel should have funds cut, but what then if Israel is again attacked, if then weakened, as it could be by such a policy? It has been before many times. Israel is surrounded by enemies.

No matter how you feel on this Quill, Israel is about one of the only true freinds to the US in the Middle East

The US is not creating wars. Bad beliefs are what creates wars. Just look at Christianity and Islam, where many of the wars in history have been thought over such beliefs

Its the same with political beliefs and why we have seen many wars thought over such poor ideas. The only war not fought over political beliefs was the First World War. That was thought based more so on pride and stupidity

I back aid to the Palestinian people, not money given to people for murder

The reality is then the people who needs this in the West Bank, end then up losing out, because of an unelected Government, that has ruled them for decades. Who has no care to live side by side in peace. This proves they do not want peace the PLO. As like I say, they do not reward any other criminals, only those that basically target Jews/Israeli's/Americans/British

Didge wrote:No matter how you feel on this Quill, Israel is about one of the only true freinds to the US in the Middle East

We don’t need friends in the middle east.  They are an ocean, and three seas away from us.  It’s none of our business.

Didge wrote:The US is not creating wars. Bad beliefs are what creates wars. Just look at Christianity and Islam, where many of the wars in history have been thought over such beliefs

That and a £2.80 will get you a cup of tea.  Wars cost money.  The party giving money is creating/continuing the war.

Didge wrote:The reality is then the people who needs this in the West Bank, end then up losing out, because of an unelected Government, that has ruled them for decades. Who has no care to live side by side in peace. This proves they do not want peace the PLO. As like I say, they do not reward any other criminals, only those that basically target Jews/Israeli's/Americans/British

We should let them solve their own problems.

How condescending is it for us to presume we know better, when we are kidnapping our neighbor’s children on our own borders.

We don’t know right from wrong.  We have no higher wisdom, nor greater authority.  We are not gods.  We are not even good parent figures.  Why should we presume to govern them?

Original Quill wrote:

Didge wrote:No matter how you feel on this Quill, Israel is about one of the only true freinds to the US in the Middle East

We don’t need friends in the middle east.  They are an ocean, and three seas away from us.  It’s none of our business.

Didge wrote:Actually, we need the whole world to be friends. To ensure there is a better and prosperous future for the next generations

That and a £2.80 will get you a cup of tea.  Wars cost money.  The party giving money is creating/continuing the war.

Didge wrote:Money spent on defense also save lives. Without that money, would there be an Iron dome. To then have been there to stop rocket attacks on civillians? How much money do you think an Israeli life is worth?

We should let them solve their own problems.

How condescending is it for us to presume we know better, when we are kidnapping our neighbor’s children on our own borders.

We don’t know right from wrong.  We have no higher wisdom, nor greater authority.  We are not gods.  We are not even good parent figures.  Why should we presume to govern them?

But that is a really absurd philosophy. As do you think we should apply that reasoning on any teaching?

That you place all your eggs in one basket on hope?

Granted, its a wonderful attitude, but flawed

So some things we may do in the west are completely wrong, but is that then a reason to then stop trying to help others.

Its a poor philosophy, one that already sees people daily walk past the homeless doing nothing. As the reality is, as a nation, we already pool together to attempt to give everyone a fair start in life with education

We try to order our society so that it is functionally relevant to us.  We educate OUR children, and teach them OUR values.  But it should end at our borders.

The reason why we get into trouble overseas, is we try to export our political philosophy, our religion and our morality.  These are the abrasive edges, where philosophies and ideologies clash.  Sometimes we are talking past one another, or sometimes we don't like people because they are not white, like us.  Such passions overtake us, and we lose sight of our own limits.

We need to stay away from those edges...the edges of ideology, at least.  There is no universal religion, or universal morality.  Let us live our lives; let them live their own lives.

It's audacity to presume to rule another's life.  Let him or her alone.  Give him or her the gift of self-determination.  Even if they are in conflict, we only enter the fray to please ourselves.  We only complicate things: there's his interest, her interest, and our interest.  We have no interest in injecting our values.  We are inevitably just buying trouble.

Original Quill wrote:We try to order our society so that it is functionally relevant.  We educate OUR children, and teach them OUR values.  But it should end at our borders.

The reason why we get into trouble overseas, is we try to export our political philosophy, our religion and our morality.  These are the abrasive edges, where philosophies and ideologies clash.  Sometimes we are talking past one another, or sometimes we don't like people because they are not white, like us.  Such passions overtake us, and we lose sight of our own limits.

We need to stay away from those edges...the edges of ideology, at least.  There is no universal religion, or universal morality.  Let us live our lives; let them live their own lives.

It's audacity to presume to rule another's life.  Let him or her alone.  Give him or her the gift of self-determination.  Even if they are in conflict, we only enter the fray to please ourselves.  We only complicate things: there's his interest, her interest, and our interest.  We have no interest in intruding our interests.

Values are important, unless those values our poor

Take for example how in many strict religious beliefs, those values are abhorant towards women and homosexuals

Hence why the US, has for many years been based on secualar values. It sadly is still ruled in part by conservative poor religious beliefs. Which these Christian beliefs are as bad as Islamic beliefs

So, do we really need religion for our morality Quill?

To me there is a man made universal concept and to me a golden rule. Treat others, as how wish to be treated yourself

Sadly this rule is often abused in many countries and many people suffer and to not act against this, is to me a crime. We then become complicit in this crime. As we are standing by watching this happen. Take the recent idiocy, where children have been seperated from their families with illigal immigration. Only in the West can opinion then sway a decision to be reversed, as it has happened in the US. This cannot happen in many other countries and I think you take this reality for granted Quill

You claim to care, but do you really? As the moment we do not stand up for the downtrodden. We completely fail them and you argue to do so, based on geography. A seperate California.

Seriously, how is that helping the world, with such separatists views?

Its nothing more than a selfish notion and very much tribal

Didge wrote:To me there is a man made universal concept and to me a golden rule. Treat others, as how wish to be treated yourself

Yes, that is your morality…your religion or creed, so to speak.

Didge wrote:Sadly this rule is often abused in many countries and many people suffer and to not act against this, is to me a crime. We then become complicit in this crime. As we are standing by watching this happen.

But it isn’t abuse in their culture. As universal as your morality is for you, it’s ethnocentric to export your value system to others.

Didge wrote:Take the recent idiocy, where children have been seperated from their families with illigal immigration. Only in the West can opinion then sway a decision to be reversed, as it has happened in the US. This cannot happen in many other countries and I think you take this reality for granted Quill

The US does have a duplicity in its own value system…southern, authoritarian racists vs. northern/western, mercantile rationalist. I have argued for a separation of states for that very reason, as that conflict appears to be irremediable.

Still, to accept our own problems is not to commit the sin of exporting our value system to others. The immigration issue is our own problem, not that of someone in the middle east. I believe we own that one.

We don’t own the issues of the people over there. Nor is it ours to tell them how to live their lives.

Original Quill wrote:

Didge wrote:To me there is a man made universal concept and to me a golden rule. Treat others, as how wish to be treated yourself

Yes, that is your morality…your religion or creed, so to speak.

Didge wrote:It is not a relighion to me mate. Its a code I either live by or do not. Its not set in stone

But it isn’t abuse in their culture.  As universal as your morality is for you, it’s ethnocentric to export your value system to others.

Didge wrote:Maybe so, but in the past we also had these same poor religious values and the US is still suffering from these effects are they not?

The US does have a duplicity in its own value system…southern, authoritarian racists vs. northern/western, mercantile rationalist.  I have argued for a separation of states for that very reason, as that conflict appears to be irremediable.

Still, to accept our own problems is not to commit the sin of exporting our value system to others.  The immigration issue is our own problem, not that of someone in the middle east.  I believe we own that one.

We don’t own the issues of the people over there.  Nor is it ours to tell them how to live their lives.

I am sorry, but as of yet. NO US law on civil rights has been changed has it?

If they hads, I would be worried

I am worried with the current Presidency

Dont use the word sin, its bullshit, as it plays into the very fabric of Trumpism

It creates a divide, when you should be looking to unite people