Fascism, is again sadly drawing closer daily - Italy's populists promise to kick out half a million migrants as they edge towards forming new government

Italy’s populist parties, which are expected to form a new government within days, have pledged to deport up to half a million migrants. An aggressive stepping-up of repatriations was a long-held promise of the hard-Right League, which is poised to form a coalition government with the anti-establishment Five Star Movement.

The parties presented their policy programme on Friday, in what was widely seen as the biggest challenge to the authority and cohesion of the EU since Brexit.

The 58-page manifesto called for a review of governance and spending rules imposed by Brussels.

It called for the recruitment of more police, the building of new prisons and the clearing of illegal gypsy settlements in Italian towns and cities.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/18/italys-populists-declare-want-kick-half-million-migrants-edge/

Now I have heard many arguments over the years about immigration and to be honest. Many to me, are nothing but covers, for the fears and paranoia of people. I have been guilty of this also. Greatly enhanced by the media, around stories of immigrants and migrants on crime. Ignoring the fact that the vast majority of migrants and immgrants settle into society and become part of any nation. Sadly the emphasis is based on those who do not and constantly neglects those who do integrate.

We are seeing the same ugly head of xenophobia rear up again and not based on any sound reasoning, but that adults have simple fail to adapt what we teach our own children

How to share

Fuk off didge!


Removing illegal immigrants is a good thing!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:Fuk off didge!


Removing illegal immigrants is a good thing!!!

So Tommy's answer to me tackling facism, is to fuck off????

Ok

Removing illegal immigrants is not fascism...!

If they are here illegally, they should be removed, no question !

Tommy Monk wrote:Removing illegal immigrants is not fascism...!

The people they wish to remove are not illegal

You are emphatically a fascist and what right do you or anyone have to deny people a right to live anywhere?

The answer is none

They are illegal immigrants who are trying to bullshit the asylum system, and who are making a complete mockery of the asylum system, as well as making a mockery of the Italian people who are suffering from the invasion...


And didge... didn't you know that you can't just go and live anywhere else in the world that you want, whenever you please...?


It's not me who is 'denying anyone the right to live anywhere'... IT'S THE RULES!!!


You can't even leave the UK/country to go on holiday to another country, without a passport!!!


And even then you have to be allowed entry by which ever country it is that you wish to travel to... which is for them to decide to allow or not... and on their terms!!!


Surely you already know all this... so stop being a bellend...!

Tommy proving again why he is a Fascist

So apparantly its the rules, to deny people a right to live geographically, which only applies to humans and no other animal species.

Let him have that sink in for a moment.

Yeah, but didge.......animals are "native" to the area they live in generally speaking and dont usually go outside that range voluntarily....I mean, one doesnt often see many polar bears setting up residence here by choice .
Your example of animal behaviour is both spurious and irrelevant.

MOREOVER animals that DO migrate do not expect the resident population to change their society to suit OR provide health care eduction and benefits at their own expense. Where the movement of one species ends up being detrimental to a resident species it is generally due to human interference.

NOW...I would agree that people are not different species per se, however without considerable study, an alien would easily think so, given the vast differences in cultural practices between different groups..BIOLOGICALLY we may well be one, Culturally we most certainly are not, and its about time folks realised that some cultures are NOT compatible and never will.be. MY view is that MY culture suits me fine....if YOU, with a different culture want to come here , then give up your incompatible culture, or piss off. Whatever...dont expect me to change ANYTHING just to suit you...and dont expect the benefits of my culture to be handed out to you when you have contributed nothing towards it. Never was it more true than I AM NOT MY BROTHERS KEEPER.

Lord Foul wrote:Yeah, but didge.......animals are "native" to the area they live in generally speaking and dont usually go outside that range voluntarily....I mean, one doesnt often see many polar bears setting up residence here by choice .
Your example of animal behaviour is both spurious and irrelevant.

Didge wrote: Well animals can and do effect the eco system, like for example how the Asian Carp was introduced to the US in fish farms and when they had a mass rain. This caused many of these fish to flow into the Mississippi river. These fish have multiplied so much, efforts are being made to basically cull them.

So its not spourious or irrelevant, as how do think this country became populated with humans in the first place, if not for human migrations?

MOREOVER animals that DO migrate do not expect the resident population to change their society to suit OR provide health care eduction and benefits at their own expense. Where the movement of one species ends up being detrimental to a resident species it is generally due to human interference.

Didge wrote: That was poor and again based on your own perceived view to people moving to areas, where they generally want to better their lives. Just as my parents did, when they came to the UK. Its this very basic selfish ethos of humans, that has been so detrimental in damaging many of the eco systems around the world. If humans had stayed as hunter gatherers, there would be little problems, but civilisation. Whilst beneficial to humans, has come at a price to many other species. This view that humans matter more is indeed a selfish view point. Which again then sees people think they have a right to then deny people the right to move. Now granted in some places where a people hates another. It would be suicidal to allow those people to enter, as it would then bring about their own destruction. Though in reality most people come to the west and to countries, their own has a connection to through former Colonial occupations. This is the knock on effect of that.

NOW...I would agree that people are not different species per se, however without considerable study, an alien would easily think so, given the vast differences in cultural practices between different groups..BIOLOGICALLY we may well be one, Culturally we most certainly are not, and its about time folks realised that some cultures are NOT compatible and never will.be. MY view is that MY culture suits me fine....if YOU, with a different culture want to come here , then give up your incompatible culture, or piss off. Whatever...dont expect me to change ANYTHING just to suit you...and dont expect the benefits of my culture to be handed out to you when you have contributed nothing towards it.  Never was it more true than I AM NOT MY BROTHERS KEEPER.

Yes we are very much culturally different but look how it does help then change the views and cultures of people, when they come from other cultures. Myself being a prime example of this. I mean take the view that around 50% think homosexuality should be a crime? Why is it 50% and not 100%. If you were to go to places like Pakistan, the number is around 87% against homosexuality. So clearly western values are having and making an impression on people. Changing values that are poor to good values. Its slow progress, but its progressing in the right direction. Its why I back people being  vocally critical of bad ideas. Held within many religions. Hopefully one day 0% will be against homosexuality. So to me the argument you are using is to me based on a fear.

Granted, with have had imported to this country barbaric cultural practices, like honour killings, FGM, grooming gangs etc. This is a problem which needs to be tackled, but you are never going to tackle problems of the world, to then have the UK or other countries in isolation.

So nobody is asking you to change anything and people should always have their rights, but does this mean collectivelly they can say people cannot migrate? Granted numbers should be controlled, as that is simple practical, but the case with Italy, where more people are dying than there is births, means that country does need immigration. As the country will have a huge over balance of the elderly with not enough people to care for them. So to remove half a million migrants speaks more of xenophobiz, then any actual pratical reason.

Italy is a Catholic country, it will soon be a Muslim country if migration is not controlled, correct?

nicko wrote:Italy is a Catholic country,    it will soon be a Muslim country if migration is not controlled,    correct?

Well lets look at that mate. Where 2.3% of the population are Muslim. I mean Muslims invaded Malta, Sicily and Southern Italy, over a millennium ago. They created states there and yet today, the people of these areas are emphatically Catholic. Whilst I do not deny that under many Muslim majority countries, there is a systematic view to surpress all other thoughts on other beliefs other than Islam. This shows, such a view to claim they will soon be a Muslim country, simple holds no reality mate.

I would rather people were not religious in the first place, but everyone has a right to their own beliefs. Now its also wrong when people come to any nation and make themselves in isolation from the west. That is a failing of that nations Governement. It has happened in the UK, as migrations have allowed areas to become predominantly high in one particular ethnic group. Where in London this is very mixed, you do not have this problem as much.

Didge wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:
Removing illegal immigrants is not fascism...!

The people they wish to remove are not illegal

You are emphatically a fascist and what right do you or anyone have to deny people a right to live anywhere?

The answer is none

Tommy would deport everybody from Italy who can't trace their lineage back two thousand years to the days of the Roman Empire...

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Didge wrote:

The people they wish to remove are not illegal

You are emphatically a fascist and what right do you or anyone have to deny people a right to live anywhere?

The answer is none

Tommy would deport everybody from Italy who can't trace their lineage back two thousand years to the days of the Roman Empire...

Its embarressing mate to even read his views, espcially when he started by telling me to fuck off.

We all descend bioloigically from Africa, and he cannot grasp this

Didge... try leaving the country without a passport...

Tommy Monk wrote:Didge... try leaving the country without a passport...

Why should I even need a passport Tommy?

Why as humans do we even have them?

big problem for UK government if they do this

gelico wrote:

big problem for UK government if they do this

Why would anyone need to use the plight of others through bigotry to win votes?

Clearly nobody has learnt from the nightmare of fascism, Nazism and Communism in the 20th century

Fuck off didge!

Tommy Monk wrote:Fuck off didge!

When all else fails, the bigot can only speak in one language

Potty mouth

Tommy would rather i was silenced on my views and not be allowed to speak

That shows Tommy is comparable to Totalitarians

No... you are just being your usual idiot self and I can't be arsed to get into your stupidity...

Tommy Monk wrote:No... you are just being your usual idiot self and I can't be arsed to get into your stupidity...

Copout alert

You told me to fuck off twice which translates, as you being shit scared of my views mate

Go figure

So you think that there should be a world without borders or passports and 7 billion people could all just turn up in UK as they wished?

Or do you think we should have borders and passports and controls over who is allowed into where and when etc...?

Tommy Monk wrote:So you think that there should be a world without borders or passports and 7 billion people could all just turn up in UK as they wished?

Or do you think we should have borders and passports and controls over who is allowed into where and when etc...?

Yep, I want animals to be animals and be able to migrate

Migrating animals go back... so do holidaymakers... illegal immigrants try to stay for ever at everyone else's cost...

Tommy Monk wrote:Migrating animals go back... so do holidaymakers... illegal immigrants try to stay for ever at everyone else's cost...

Really?

Why is it the vast majority of people are descended from people from the basque area in Spain?

Why is it that a million are descended from the Saxons?

That a millions is dedscended from the Vikings

If migrating animals went back, no animals would ever be here. Hence the idiocy of your argument

Right really have to go and as much as I have laughed at gelico's real idicoy, bye for now.

Animals don't pay taxes, and they don't generally need to build houses, they don't need roads, they don't need to work, so there's no comparison.

Right rags... which shows how much of an idiot didge is being here...!

Animals have two types of natural migrations, seasonal and permanent, until another group comes along at least. The permanent migrations can be due to exhausting the food supply in their area or a colony/herd becoming too large and a large number of the animals will go and look for a new territory, if this is an 'empty' area for the species its all well and good, if there is already sitting tenants this is when problems arise, one or the other will be ousted to either find another territory, if they are lucky or to starvation and possible predation.
Its no different with humans, although I think we are more like army ants.
Probably as the population grew in Africa people were displaced and eventually were forced by necessity or actual force, to move out of Africa, more and more followed because the populations in Africa and the new lands increased and so it went on, move on because someone else was coming along and the resources weren't enough for all or maybe one or the other wasn't prepared to share or move and people died, that's unfettered migration. Resources are finite, the worlds population is not by any means. Until we get a grip on poulation and peoples greed, which isn't going to happen in the near future I don't think, we need borders and immigration rules for everyone's safety, including our fellow species.

+1

Vintage wrote:Animals have two types of natural migrations, seasonal and permanent, until another group comes along at least. The permanent migrations can be due to exhausting the food supply in their area or a colony/herd becoming too large and a large number of the animals will go and look for a new territory, if this is an 'empty' area for the species its all well and good, if there is already sitting tenants this is when problems arise, one or the other will be ousted to either find another territory, if they are lucky or to starvation and possible predation.
Its no different with humans, although I think we are more like army ants.
Probably as the population grew in Africa people were displaced and eventually were forced by necessity or actual force, to move out of Africa, more and more followed because the populations in Africa and the new lands increased and so it went on, move on because someone else was coming along and the resources weren't enough for all or maybe one or the other wasn't prepared to share or move and people died, that's unfettered migration. Resources are finite, the worlds population is not by any means. Until we get a grip on poulation and peoples greed, which isn't going to happen in the near future I don't think, we need borders and immigration rules for everyone's safety, including our fellow species.

So, as long as you are right then?
The whole view point you made is on the premise of a small population of humans on one place of geographical land. Where again you and others seem to think you can dictate and basically be god, over how ans where people live. Your answers is never to actual tackle the problems in these countries and actually help these nations become better, that then people have less need to leave. The poor view is to close borders from people seeking refugee and want of a better life.

You see this is why most arguments on this generally are xenophobic. As they are not based on any real need, but the perceived and preconcieved views of some people

Where ever do you hear people arguing to help make better the countries people are fleeing from?

You do not and people instead look to argue against them coming to the country they live in

All I see is how inherantly selfish humans are becoming

Raggamuffin wrote:Animals don't pay taxes, and they don't generally need to build houses, they don't need roads, they don't need to work, so there's no comparison.

Except humans are a species of animals and does do this, thinking they above all others, are gods

To claim animals do not work, has to be the most dumbest and clueless thing you have ever said

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Animals don't pay taxes, and they don't generally need to build houses, they don't need roads, they don't need to work, so there's no comparison.

Except humans are a species of animals and does do this, thinking they above all others, are gods

To claim animals do not work, has to be the most dumbest and clueless thing you have ever said

Get stuffed, you pompous ass.

Now far from anyone giving an actual decent reponse, Can someone explain to me, how removing half a million migrants is a good thing regarding Italy?

Is like I say it based on xenophobia or actual sound reasons?

So lets see what people truly believe, as so far it has been xenophobic bullshit.

I hope the squirrel in my garden isn't late for work tomorrow - he'll get a right rollicking from the boss if he is.

Humans have always been selfish, you mentioned Vikings, you do realise they murdered and enslaved to get what they wanted, first of all goods then land. Others have actually killed off entire clans/tribes to get hold of their hunting grounds.
Same with North America, South America people struggled, fought, died and were enslaved all for resources and land. We were talking about immigration and those rules, no where did I say I didn't believe we should help countries to develop so there is no need for people to leave. Its no good people flocking to other countries who can't give them work etc. until those countries end up in virtually the same state as the one they left.
The problem is finding the way to do it, do we go to countries and tell them how wrong they are doing things and you must do it like this, because people on the whole like to keep their national identity and their way of doing things.
Which is one of the factors why empires fail, even the best of them, if there is such a thing.
It took the current developed world a long time to get where it is, in fact its only recently that it turned the corner for the majority of its peoples and it cost a lot of lives to get there.
As long as I am alright? - not at all, I'm just arguing for controlled immigration and just pointing out the absurdity of allowing anyone to go anywhere anytime they like in the current world, and also pointing out that animal migration is not free and easy either, there are costs, sometimes very high costs.
Oh looks like its going to be one of those discussions again, who'd have thought.

Raggamuffin wrote:I hope the squirrel in my garden isn't late for work tomorrow - he'll get a right rollicking from the boss if he is.

Or the fact that if he does not work to surivive, he will die of course

Happy to correct your ignorance here Rags

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:I hope the squirrel in my garden isn't late for work tomorrow - he'll get a right rollicking from the boss if he is.

Or the fact that if he does not work to surivive, he will die of course

Happy to correct your ignorance here Rags

Well he might be sacked if he doesn't turn up.

Can animals claim JSA?

Vintage wrote:Humans have always been selfish, you mentioned Vikings, you do realise they murdered and enslaved to get what they wanted, first of all goods then land. Others have actually killed off entire clans/tribes to get hold of their hunting grounds.
Same with North America, South America people struggled, fought, died and were enslaved all for resources and land. We were talking about immigration and those rules, no where did I say I didn't believe we should help countries to develop so there is no need for people to leave. Its no good people flocking to other countries who can't give them work etc. until those countries end up in virtually the same state as the one they left.
The problem is finding the way to do it, do we go to countries and tell them how wrong they are doing things and you must do it like this, because people on the whole like to keep their national identity and their way of doing things.
Which is one of the factors why empires fail, even the best of them, if there is such a thing.
It took the current developed world a long time to get where it is, in fact its only recently that it turned the corner for the majority of its peoples and it cost a lot of lives to get there.
As long as I am alright? - not at all, I'm just arguing for controlled immigration and just pointing out the absurdity of allowing anyone to go anywhere anytime they like in the current world, and also pointing out that animal migration is not free and easy either, there are costs, sometimes very high costs.
Oh looks like its going to be one of those discussions again, who'd have thought.

1) Such a poor and in fact poor view on Vikings, when in fact many settled as they did in this country. The Saxons also invaded and thus later settled in these lands. You would think being Welsh, you more than anyone would understand and know one of the last bastions of Briton then, was the Celts in Wales. Again whilst there have always been initial invasions, most settled into living peacefully in those lands

2) Wrong again, when most people in the America's died, because the Europeans brought deseases with them, that killed off around 80% of the populations. On top of that they were enslaved and worked to death. How you are then using this to argue againt miragtions, is beyond contempt actually, as if to again argue that this is what happens with miragtions. Where there is so many migrations that predate this, which did not result in the deaths of millions of people. What you are doing is a really poor argument to claim that some how because Europeans were appalling when they coolonized lands, this is then the template to look at any migrations

Holy crap on a cracker

3) You are arguing for controlled immigration and yet still miss the mark on what to actually do. Help people in these countries have better welll being and equality. Taking away the need of them to leave in the first place. You claim to want controlled immigration, when in reality most peoples needs is against people coming based on their own preconcieved views.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:

Or the fact that if he does not work to surivive, he will die of course

Happy to correct your ignorance here Rags

Well he might be sacked if he doesn't turn up.

Nah just generally die, if he does not work

Raggamuffin wrote:Can animals claim JSA?

Didge wrote:

Vintage wrote:Humans have always been selfish, you mentioned Vikings, you do realise they murdered and enslaved to get what they wanted, first of all goods then land. Others have actually killed off entire clans/tribes to get hold of their hunting grounds.
Same with North America, South America people struggled, fought, died and were enslaved all for resources and land. We were talking about immigration and those rules, no where did I say I didn't believe we should help countries to develop so there is no need for people to leave. Its no good people flocking to other countries who can't give them work etc. until those countries end up in virtually the same state as the one they left.
The problem is finding the way to do it, do we go to countries and tell them how wrong they are doing things and you must do it like this, because people on the whole like to keep their national identity and their way of doing things.
Which is one of the factors why empires fail, even the best of them, if there is such a thing.
It took the current developed world a long time to get where it is, in fact its only recently that it turned the corner for the majority of its peoples and it cost a lot of lives to get there.
As long as I am alright? - not at all, I'm just arguing for controlled immigration and just pointing out the absurdity of allowing anyone to go anywhere anytime they like in the current world, and also pointing out that animal migration is not free and easy either, there are costs, sometimes very high costs.
Oh looks like its going to be one of those discussions again, who'd have thought.

1) Such a poor and in fact poor view on Vikings, when in fact many settled as they did in this country. The Saxons also invaded and thus later settled in these lands. You would think being Welsh, you more than anyone would understand and know one of the last bastions of  Briton then, was the Celts in Wales. Again whilst there have always been initial invasions, most settled into living peacefully in those lands

2)  Wrong again, when most people in the America's died, because the Europeans brought deseases with them, that killed off around 80% of the populations. On top of that they were enslaved and worked to death. How you are then using this to argue againt miragtions, is beyond contempt actually, as if to again argue that this is what happens with miragtions. Where there is so many migrations that predate this, which did not result in the deaths of millions of people. What you are doing is a really poor argument to claim that some how because Europeans were appalling when they coolonized lands, this is then the template to look at any migrations

Holy crap on a cracker

3) You are arguing for controlled immigration and yet still miss the mark on what to actually do. Help people in these countries have better welll being and equality. Taking away the need of them to leave in the first place. You claim to want controlled immigration, when in reality most peoples needs is against people coming based on their own preconcieved views.

Bumped again to have some real debate back on track

good for the Italians, say I.

Poland and Hungary still continue to defy the EU.

AfD is rising

Swedish Democrats are rising

EU is crumbling

all is good

gelico wrote:

good for the Italians, say I.

Poland and Hungary still continue to defy the EU.

AfD is rising

Swedish Democrats are rising

EU is crumbling

all is good

Wow, Poland has seen a massive rise in Antisemitism and you think that is a good thing?

How is a general growing of xenophobia a good thing Gelico?

There is nothing more alarming than the return of such xenophobia griping Europe, thatonce plagued this continent and then ended up seeing tens of millions die. All to the selfish and parnoid hateful views of people

And sadly you call that a good thing

wow

saying the EU is a corrupt, anti democratic, self serving organisation which, ideally, should be destroyed

gelico wrote:

saying the EU is a corrupt, anti democratic, self serving organisation which, ideally, should be destroyed

So how does that then in anyway back the view, that the view and examples you promote, are now becoming some of the most hateful societies towards people not Polish and Hungarian?

It seems to me, you want to jump into bed with the worst kind of hate, if only to see the EU fall

wow

Why can you not be against both wrongs?

Didge wrote:

gelico wrote:

good for the Italians, say I.

Poland and Hungary still continue to defy the EU.

AfD is rising

Swedish Democrats are rising

EU is crumbling

all is good

Wow, Poland has seen a massive rise in Antisemitism and you think that is a good thing?


i don't and i never said i did.

How is a general growing of xenophobia a good thing Gelico?

i never said it was

my point was that the more the EU individual countries are able to make their own decisions, the better

gelico wrote:

Didge wrote:


Wow, Poland has seen a massive rise in Antisemitism and you think that is a good thing?


i don't and i never said i did.

How is a general growing of xenophobia a good thing Gelico?

i never said it was

my point was that the more the EU individual countries are able to make their own decisions, the better

Really, when you said its a good thing that Poland and Hungary is defying the EU and you mean on this around migrants. You think its good that Italy is removing migrants and again, when they have a higher death rate than birth rates. Explain to me, how that is good for Italy, when it has an aging population?

Who excatly is going to care for them?

Well being able to make your own decisions, when these decisions are based on xenophobia, is hardly a good thing, is it?

Didge wrote:

gelico wrote:

my point was that the more the EU individual countries are able to make their own decisions, the better

Really, when you said its a good thing that Poland and Hungary is defying the EU and you mean on this around migrants. You think its good that Italy is removing migrants and again, when they have a higher death rate than birth rates. Explain to me, how that is good for Italy, when it has an aging population?

Who excatly is going to care for them?

young Italians???

Well being able to make your own decisions, when these decisions are based on xenophobia, is hardly a good thing, is it?

that isn't a fact didge, that is just your own perception

given up on the anti semitism gig?