Old newspapers show that today’s news is not new news.

From 1958, snapshots of a newspaper found in an attic at a friend’s house clearance.

Possibly because people never really learn by their mistakes?

History always repeats itself

It seems we take two steps forward and one step back at the best of times then every now and again we take one forward and two back.

Men have always been incredibly cruel...'mans inhumanity to man' knows no bounds.

I read a newspaper item this morning about an American camera man who was covering the Vietnam war. The photos he took, and the stories he told of the way the American soldiers slaughtered innocent civilians, knowing full well they were innocent men, women and children, proves that life is very cheap when hatred takes over.

Syl wrote:Possibly because people never really learn by their mistakes?

Or, because people only think in metaphors:

Lakoff/Johnson, Metaphors we Live By wrote:...metaphor is pervasive in everyday life, not just in language, but in thought and action.  Our ordinary conceptual system, in terms of which we both think and act, is fundamentally metaphorical in nature.
http://www.theliterarylink.com/metaphors.html

The gestalt of memory becomes the gestalt by which we frame any new phenomenon.  Even now, newspapers are not inventing new terms to describe the chill in relations between Russia and the west.  They are calling in the new (or renewed) Cold War, or Cold War 2.

This is the article.
Contains upsetting photos and text.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/soldiers-were-almost-robotic-massacred-12202440

Syl wrote:This is the article.
Contains upsetting photos and text.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/soldiers-were-almost-robotic-massacred-12202440

Your linked article didn't come through, but I can imagine.  Someone is drawing upon an historical event to frame a new event or subject.  The connection is in the metaphor he is drawing.  Very common in the journalist business.

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:This is the article.
Contains upsetting photos and text.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/soldiers-were-almost-robotic-massacred-12202440

Your linked article didn't come through, but I can imagine.  Someone is drawing upon an historical event to frame a new event or subject.  The connection is in the metaphor he is drawing.  Very common in the journalist business.

Its odd the way so many links, you tubes etc cant be seen by everyone.This is an excerpt...

"In a frenzy, the GIs were slaying and mutilating civilians, mainly women and children, aged one to 82.
Today marked 50 years since the atrocity now known as the My Lai Massacre.
Committed by soldiers from ­Company C, 1st Battalion, 20th Infantry regiment, or “Charlie Company”, it ranks alongside history’s most wicked mass murders.
And it was made worse because the army immediately covered it up and sold it as a victory – that is until Ron took the brave decision to publish his pictures.
When they appeared in all their ­full-coloured horror there could no longer be any cover up.
Ron says: “Gen Westmoreland sent a congratulatory letter to Company C praising ‘a wonderful job’. It was one big cover-up from the top down. My photos convinced the GIs to speak out.”

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Your linked article didn't come through, but I can imagine.  Someone is drawing upon an historical event to frame a new event or subject.  The connection is in the metaphor he is drawing.  Very common in the journalist business.

Its odd the way so many links, you tubes etc cant be seen by everyone.This is an excerpt...

"In a frenzy, the GIs were slaying and mutilating civilians, mainly women and children, aged one to 82.
Today marked 50 years since the atrocity now known as the My Lai Massacre.
Committed by soldiers from ­Company C, 1st Battalion, 20th Infantry regiment, or “Charlie Company”, it ranks alongside history’s most wicked mass murders.
And it was made worse because the army immediately covered it up and sold it as a victory – that is until Ron took the brave decision to publish his pictures.
When they appeared in all their ­full-coloured horror there could no longer be any cover up.
Ron says: “Gen Westmoreland sent a congratulatory letter to Company C praising ‘a wonderful job’. It was one big cover-up from the top down. My photos convinced the GIs to speak out.”

General Westmoreland notwithstanding, the My Lai incident did the most to end the Vietnam War, and probably was the beginning of the end of the Cold War. So it is an anchor event in any metaphor chain about atrocities in war.

I have used it myself, whenever I want to point out the seriousness of events in war. I have, for example, likened the Mahmudiyah rape and killings to My Lai on several occasions.

The two events happened 4 decades apart, which does show that as the thread title suggests...what the news headlines say today has already been said long ago.

Any soldier who followed orders to turn machine guns on innocent women and kids needed stringing up.
They were war crimes.
They could have refused the order. Those further up the food chain would not have condoned the order either.
You have to be a heartless bastard to carry out such an order.

It's not so much learning by mistakes as about human nature which, fundamentally, you can't change

Angry Andy wrote:Any soldier who followed orders to turn machine guns on innocent women and kids needed stringing up.
They were war crimes.
They could have refused the order. Those further up the food chain would not have condoned the order either.
You have to be a heartless bastard to carry out such an order.

No question they were war crimes. They were even worse war crimes in Iraq, only they were intentional. Mahmudiyah rape and killings, for example.

The teaching of Vietnam was frustration and fatigue. The teaching of Iraq was that America had legitimized rape and torture (they called it enhanced interrogation), kidnapping, and incarceration in concentration camps. How America in Iraq differs from Nazi Germany in Europe is a mystery to me, yet GWB and Dick Cheney walk as free men today.

America is neither a democracy, nor is it ruled by laws. If you're are big enough, and grand enough, you just take what you want.

I always got the feeling that many of the GI's in the Vietnam war was drugged out of their minds.
Maybe that had something to do with the inhumane way they acted.

Would be interesting to get the take on this from an ex soldier or someone who was there.

Most Vietnam veterans don't want to talk about it--evidence that it was too ugly to recall.  I believe the purposelessness of the Vietnam war was what led to the atrocities like My Lai.

Iraq was a far greater evil because the atrocities were planned.  Hell, the whole war was built on a lie.  Then there were the tortures, rapes, kidnappings and the concentration camp.  That was evil that was premeditated.  We seem to have a special talent when it comes to races other than our own.

Photographer Ron Haeberle spoke out about the atrocities he saw at My Lai in 1968.
It was his photographs that exposed the brutality and lies.

“I will never forget one particular soldier. He got his bayonet out and jumped on the back of a water buffalo and was trying to ride it and kill it at the same time. He had lost all sight of reality.”

He recalls another group of villagers herded like terrified animals.
“Soldiers were surrounding them. They were fondling one young girl, trying to unbutton her blouse.
“One man yelled ‘Here’s someone with a camera’ so they all stopped. I thought they were going to interrogate them so I stepped back.
“But then I heard firing, turned round and saw two soldiers with M16s firing into this group.

“It was too much. I continued walking. I didn’t turn around.

“Quite a few soldiers that day had lost reality,” he adds. “This was revenge. They weren’t seeing human beings, or children – they were seeing the enemy.”

Syl wrote:Photographer Ron Haeberle spoke out about the atrocities he saw at My Lai in 1968.
It was his photographs that exposed the brutality and lies.

“I will never forget one particular soldier. He got his bayonet out and jumped on the back of a water buffalo and was trying to ride it and kill it at the same time. He had lost all sight of reality.”

He recalls another group of villagers herded like terrified animals.
“Soldiers were surrounding them. They were fondling one young girl, trying to unbutton her blouse.
“One man yelled ‘Here’s someone with a camera’ so they all stopped. I thought they were going to interrogate them so I stepped back.
“But then I heard firing, turned round and saw two soldiers with M16s firing into this group.

“It was too much. I continued walking. I didn’t turn around.

“Quite a few soldiers that day had lost reality,” he adds. “This was revenge. They weren’t seeing human beings, or children – they were seeing the enemy.”

Right.  What do you see in Haeberle's description: chaos, panic, confusion...soldiers searching for some meaning, some purpose.  The man on the buffalo, the random shooting of children.  All searching for some certainty, some purpose.  It was the purposelessness of the Vietnam war that moved the soldiers.

Contrast this with the Iraq war.  Absolutely they were much more organized ... organized around evil.  Now, it was premeditated torture, rape, kidnapping, rendition...they had their clear purpose, and (as it turned out) America's purpose was the same as Hitler's.

Now they have cultivated that spirit and we get things like Trump, Charlottesville, alternate facts and Parkland.  The Iraq war legitimized evil in America, and now we see the flowers begin to poke up from beneath the ground.

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:Photographer Ron Haeberle spoke out about the atrocities he saw at My Lai in 1968.
It was his photographs that exposed the brutality and lies.

“I will never forget one particular soldier. He got his bayonet out and jumped on the back of a water buffalo and was trying to ride it and kill it at the same time. He had lost all sight of reality.”

He recalls another group of villagers herded like terrified animals.
“Soldiers were surrounding them. They were fondling one young girl, trying to unbutton her blouse.
“One man yelled ‘Here’s someone with a camera’ so they all stopped. I thought they were going to interrogate them so I stepped back.
“But then I heard firing, turned round and saw two soldiers with M16s firing into this group.

“It was too much. I continued walking. I didn’t turn around.

“Quite a few soldiers that day had lost reality,” he adds. “This was revenge. They weren’t seeing human beings, or children – they were seeing the enemy.”

Right.  What do you see in Haeberle's description: chaos, panic, confusion...soldiers searching for some meaning, some purpose.  The man on the buffalo, the random shooting of children.  All searching for some certainty, some purpose.  It was the purposelessness of the Vietnam war that moved the soldiers.

Contrast this with the Iraq war.  Absolutely they were much more organized ... organized around evil.  Now, it was premeditated torture, rape, kidnapping, rendition...they had their clear purpose, and (as it turned out) America's purpose was the same as Hitler's.

Now they have cultivated that spirit and we get things like Trump, Charlottesville, alternate facts and Parkland.  The Iraq war legitimized evil in America, and now we see the flowers begin to poke up from beneath the ground.

Whether a war is organised or chaotic, I imagine the people (mostly youngsters) on the front line feel the same sort of panic, confusion, fear, detachment from reality, adrenalin rush  and hatred for the 'enemy'.

I can imagine in a prolonged situation they would lose all sense of reality, couple that with what they see, its not surprising that some totally lose it.
I still think in the Vietnam war the young GI's with the guns were drugged up.

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Right.  What do you see in Haeberle's description: chaos, panic, confusion...soldiers searching for some meaning, some purpose.  The man on the buffalo, the random shooting of children.  All searching for some certainty, some purpose.  It was the purposelessness of the Vietnam war that moved the soldiers.

Contrast this with the Iraq war.  Absolutely they were much more organized ... organized around evil.  Now, it was premeditated torture, rape, kidnapping, rendition...they had their clear purpose, and (as it turned out) America's purpose was the same as Hitler's.

Now they have cultivated that spirit and we get things like Trump, Charlottesville, alternate facts and Parkland.  The Iraq war legitimized evil in America, and now we see the flowers begin to poke up from beneath the ground.

Whether a war is organised or chaotic, I imagine the people (mostly youngsters) on the front line feel the same sort of panic, confusion, fear, detachment from reality, adrenalin rush  and hatred for the 'enemy'.

I can imagine in a prolonged situation they would lose all sense of reality, couple that with what they see, its not surprising that some totally lose it.
I still think in the Vietnam war the young GI's with the guns were drugged up.

Well, I believe you are right that drugs played a part, but you have to ask: why did the GI's turn to drugs?  Why did they need the escape?  I believe it was because of the chaos and lack of purpose, and the fear that caused.

My point is that between Vietnam and Iraq, the evil became conscious and premeditated.  The leaders chose evil consciously.  Whereas in Vietnam, incidents like My Lai were interpreted as confusion and frustration, by the time Iraq rolled around the murders, torture, rape, rendition and baby-killing were admittedly an intentional part of the program...they even had an antiseptic name for it: enhanced interrogation.

That's scary.

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:
Whether a war is organised or chaotic, I imagine the people (mostly youngsters) on the front line feel the same sort of panic, confusion, fear, detachment from reality, adrenalin rush  and hatred for the 'enemy'.

I can imagine in a prolonged situation they would lose all sense of reality, couple that with what they see, its not surprising that some totally lose it.
I still think in the Vietnam war the young GI's with the guns were drugged up.

Well, I believe you are right that drugs played a part, but you have to ask: why did the GI's turn to drugs?  Why did they need the escape?  I believe it was because of the chaos and lack of purpose, and the fear that caused.

My point is that between Vietnam and Iraq, the evil became conscious and premeditated.  The leaders chose evil consciously.  Whereas in Vietnam, incidents like My Lai were interpreted as confusion and frustration, by the time Iraq rolled around the murders, torture, rape, rendition and baby-killing were admittedly an intentional part of the program...they even had an antiseptic name for it: enhanced interrogation.

That's scary.

It doesn't bare thinking about Quill.
All war, no matter the cause of it or whether it has a point or not, or whether its just a power surge for some despot at the helm....the ones who suffer are the innocent victims and the kids on the front line.

I imagine the GI's turned to drugs because it was the culture at the time, but more importantly it numbed the mind from the things they saw and did themselves.

I wonder how many men came home and was able to live a normal life?
Same as the soldiers in WW1 and 2....no help for them, pts syndrome hadn't even been heard of.

Syl wrote:I wonder how many men came home and was able to live a normal life?
Same as the soldiers in WW1 and 2....no help for them, pts syndrome hadn't even been heard of.

The reasons for wars, and things done in them, are important for the very reason you raise: state of mind.  The men in WWI and WWII came home better adjusted in part because they had the peace of mind of knowing that they were the good guys.

The men in Vietnam were less secure because they were uncertain as to the purpose of the war.  Some, based on what they did there, came home and never wanted to talk about it.  It was, incidentally, the beginning of PTSD and the appearance of other psychological disorders.

The men and women of Iraq and Afghanistan now come home, certain that they are the bad guys.  They are sent over there, told that they must torture, kidnap, murder and rape...all the things that Hitler did.  Imagine the psychological disorders that come out of this crop.

There is a correlation between this and the course of our politics.  The state of normalcy determines the jumping off point for the next iteration of the state of mind, or at this point, state of morality.  We have achieved, at this level, a president who grabs pussies, engages in organized crime and genuflects to the Russian president.  In a sense, we have all become mentally ill...or at least mentally numb.

"They were sent over and told they must murder and rape etc" My two Sons would have something to say to you if they met you. Do you like Hospital food?

That would see them in HMP for a good time.
Violence is always the answer.

Violence is always the answer" nice one Andy, by the way, HMP is not in America ! Do you agree our Soldiers were sent over to commit Murder and rape ect? Yes or no please, no waffle !

My comment was sarcastic.Soldiers are almost certainly more professional than they were 50 years ago.
Anecdotal evidence suggests many of that era were users/abusers of narcotics.
Not good when you need a clear head and good judgement.

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:I wonder how many men came home and was able to live a normal life?
Same as the soldiers in WW1 and 2....no help for them, pts syndrome hadn't even been heard of.

The reasons for wars, and things done in them, are important for the very reason you raise: state of mind.  The men in WWI and WWII came home better adjusted in part because they had the peace of mind of knowing that they were the good guys.

The men in Vietnam were less secure because they were uncertain as to the purpose of the war.  Some, based on what they did there, came home and never wanted to talk about it.  It was, incidentally, the beginning of PTSD and the appearance of other psychological disorders.

The men and women of Iraq and Afghanistan now come home, certain that they are the bad guys.  They are sent over there, told that they must torture, kidnap, murder and rape...all the things that Hitler did.  Imagine the psychological disorders that come out of this crop.

There is a correlation between this and the course of our politics.  The state of normalcy determines the jumping off point for the next iteration of the state of mind, or at this point, state of morality.  We have achieved, at this level, a president who grabs pussies, engages in organized crime and genuflects to the Russian president.  In a sense, we have all become mentally ill...or at least mentally numb.

I don't believe the men who survived the first two world wars were better adjusted Quill, I think many of them were ruined by what they had seen and done, its just that there was no help, not for them or their families who just had to get on with it.

Obviously it must help if you actually believe what you are fighting for, but soldiers are taught to do what they are told ..not question why.
Plus the reasons they are given for the wars are probably lies anyway.

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

The reasons for wars, and things done in them, are important for the very reason you raise: state of mind.  The men in WWI and WWII came home better adjusted in part because they had the peace of mind of knowing that they were the good guys.

The men in Vietnam were less secure because they were uncertain as to the purpose of the war.  Some, based on what they did there, came home and never wanted to talk about it.  It was, incidentally, the beginning of PTSD and the appearance of other psychological disorders.

The men and women of Iraq and Afghanistan now come home, certain that they are the bad guys.  They are sent over there, told that they must torture, kidnap, murder and rape...all the things that Hitler did.  Imagine the psychological disorders that come out of this crop.

There is a correlation between this and the course of our politics.  The state of normalcy determines the jumping off point for the next iteration of the state of mind, or at this point, state of morality.  We have achieved, at this level, a president who grabs pussies, engages in organized crime and genuflects to the Russian president.  In a sense, we have all become mentally ill...or at least mentally numb.

I don't believe the men who survived the first two world wars were better adjusted Quill, I think many of them were ruined by what they had seen and done, its just that there was no help, not for them or their families who just had to get on with it.

Having lived through the era (my own father was a naval officer in WWII), I can testify that those men came back well-adjusted and healthy.  Naturally, I also lived through the Vietnam war and Iraq.  The latter two were totally different.

Syl wrote:Obviously it must help if you actually believe what you are fighting for, but soldiers are taught to do what they are told ..not question why.
Plus the reasons they are given for the wars are probably lies anyway.

You don't change human nature.  The military gets you for only six weeks of basic training, and then there is a certain ideology that maintains while you're in the military. That's where things can go wrong.

The military can't 'discipline' one to believe a lie...if the soldier is killing babies for no reason, at some point he asks why.  When he goes home and has babies of his own, he has trouble living with himself.  Imagine looking down the barrel of your rifle at your own baby.

There but for fortune...ya know?

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:

I don't believe the men who survived the first two world wars were better adjusted Quill, I think many of them were ruined by what they had seen and done, its just that there was no help, not for them or their families who just had to get on with it.

Having lived through the era (my own father was a naval officer in WWII), I can testify that those men came back well-adjusted and healthy.  Naturally, I also lived through the Vietnam war and Iraq.  The latter two were totally different.

Syl wrote:Obviously it must help if you actually believe what you are fighting for, but soldiers are taught to do what they are told ..not question why.
Plus the reasons they are given for the wars are probably lies anyway.

You don't change human nature.  The military gets you for only six weeks of basic training, and then there is a certain ideology that maintains while you're in the military.  That's where things can go wrong.

The military can't 'discipline' one to believe a lie...if the soldier is killing babies for no reason, at some point he asks why.  When he goes home and has babies of his own, he has trouble living with himself.  Imagine looking down the barrel of your rifle at your own baby.

There but for fortune...ya know?

Your dad was lucky, my dad  had medals for bravery but never spoke of what he had done or seen in the war. He  came back with burns and hearing problems because of his tank being blown up....that's the only thing he spoke about.
I know WW2 war babies who said their fathers went off to war young and eager to fight for their country, when they returned they had all sorts of mental problems that were never resolved.

The military can discipline people to do what they are told when they are told without thinking for themselves.
And I doubt any  soldier goes off to fight believing they are in the wrong....we are all lied to by our governments are we not?

There are rules of war, if a soldier is deliberately killing babies he is obviously breaking the laws and he would face consequences.....unless the old 'collateral damage' mantra  is used by governments as an excuse, which it often is sadly.

Syl wrote:There are rules of war, if a soldier is deliberately killing babies he is obviously breaking the laws and he would face consequences.....

Only Lt. William Calley faced discipline for My Lai Massacre, on March 16, 1968.  He was convicted by court-martial of murdering 22 unarmed South Vietnamese civilians.

He was released after three years of house arrest.  The judge ruled he had been prejudiced by pre-trial publicity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:There are rules of war, if a soldier is deliberately killing babies he is obviously breaking the laws and he would face consequences.....

Only Lt. William Calley faced discipline for My Lai.  He was convicted by court-martial of murdering 22 unarmed South Vietnamese civilians in the My Lai Massacre on March 16, 1968.

He was released after three years of house arrest.  The judge ruled he had been prejudiced by pre-trial publicity.

That was a total farce, and if the photo's including the one above had not been taken to prove what had happened, the My Lai atrocity would have gone down as an American victory.

           

The Vietnam War was a major turning point for a big surge in drug abuse problems in the US, Oz and NZ...

Many soldiers over there found that marijuana, hashish, opium and heroin were much cheaper and more easily available compared with home, and providing a ready escape from pain, confusion, unrest..

Drug abuse problems and crimes in many Western countries leapt five-to-ten fold or more between the late 1950s and early '60s, and the 1970s, with many returning servicemen coming home with substance abuse problems on top of PTSD, depression and/or looming unemployment for a significant minority.

Your right about that Wolfie !