Make misogyny a hate crime and 'upskirting' illegal, UK report recommends

Misogyny should become a hate crime and taking photos up women’s skirts be made illegal, a major report into the way the legal system protects women has recommended.

It has made a series of recommendations, including strengthening the law on sexual harassment at work so that women are protected not just from other employees but from third parties such as customers, service users or contractors.

The report also suggests making any breach of a domestic abuse order a criminal offence, reviewing the law on the admissibility of previous sexual history evidence in rape cases, and strengthening the definition of revenge porn.

The panel have called for the act of taking surreptitious pictures up skirts or down tops to be made a criminal offence across the UK, as it already is in Scotland.

In September, the justice secretary, David Lidington, told MPs he was considering this following a campaign by Gina Martin, who alleges that a man took a photo up her skirt at a music festival. Police were unable to take the case further.

At the time, Lidington said he had taken Martin’s campaign “very seriously” and consulted with police and crime commissioners. He said: “I have asked for detailed advice on this. Before proceeding to a commitment to new legislation, I want to be absolutely certain that this would be the right course to take.”

However, on Monday night and in response to the Fawcett Society’s report, a Ministry of Justice spokesman suggested new legislation was not required as offenders could already be prosecuted using legislation on voyeurism, public decency and public order.

He said: “This behaviour is a violation of privacy and causes considerable distress for victims. Prosecutors have a range of powers to deal with these cases. We continue to keep legislation under constant review to ensure we can bring offenders to justice.”

Sam Smethers, the chief executive of the Fawcett Society, said technology meant women were experiencing sexual harassment in new ways and that legislation needed to respond.

She said: “It’s really important with upskirting, which is seen as a casual and funny thing, that we actually do take it seriously, because it’s an incredible invasion of personal privacy. It’s humiliating for them and it’s fundamentally unacceptable.

“Scotland is ahead of [England and Wales] and we really should be following their lead. We recognise that some offences are more difficult to enforce than others, but it’s important that women have confidence in the law and that the law is behind them.”

She added: “As it stands, and when you take a step back and look at the law and see how all of this adds up, the legal system is fundamentally failing women at every turn. It’s time to say, ‘Enough is enough.’”

The provisions for third-party harassment provisions in the Equality Act were repealed in 2013 as a result of the red tape challenge, a government initiative to cut unnecessary regulations.

Smethers said: “We’re in this culture where everybody is now talking about sexual harassment, so it seems absolutely indefensible to be in a situation that someone who you are serving a drink to in a bar or even working alongside you but employed by a different employer, your employer has no responsibility.

“We have to change that. It’s not acceptable because employers do have a duty of care to their staff. So many services are now contracted, out so these situations are on the rise.”

Cox, who said the the evidence they received was “deeply disturbing”, said the time had now come for a greater responsibility and accountability to be placed on to organisations to prevent harassment and discrimination in the first place.

“If we believe that gender equality is good for business, then we must also believe that discrimination and harassment are bad for business,” she said. “The chances are this will be happening to some extent in most workplaces, so let’s move towards proactive action and require employers to do something about it.”

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/jan/23/make-misogyny-a-hate-and-upskirting-illegal-uk-report-recommends

More and more women are falling victim to upskirting....even children. It's bloody disgusting that men can't control themselves in this way. On Victoria Derbyshire this morning, one poor woman told of how she was upskirted and then the bloke shared the photo with everyone around him at a concert.

I'd go mental if I caught a man doing this, particularly to a child.

Disgusting and amazing that anyone would think this is acceptable or funny. Having grown up with mainly 'old fashioned' men who wouldn't dream of telling a slightly risque joke in mixed company, the way some men behave now is totally alien to me. I'm sure the men I grew up with and worked with weren't angels, one or two I worked with certainly weren'tbut such behaviour as I see today was totally unacceptable . The problem is as well I think that some women behave as badly as some men do, so it makes people think anything goes, its all a bit of a laugh self respect and respect for others seems a thing of the past. That said I suppose I'm a thing of the past as well.

"Upskirting" has been illegal down here for a few years now...

Australia doesn't have defined "hate crimes" and "hate speech" laws, where they might have to add more subjects as society evolves,  but rather 'anti-villification laws that could be applied across a whole range of complaints, where the maun issue comes down to deliberate and ongoing hatemongering aimed towards particular groups, based on race/ethnicity, religion or political beliefs, gender, sexual orientation, etc.

https://www.humanrights.gov.au/employers/good-practice-good-business-factsheets/quick-guide-australian-discrimination-laws

Vintage wrote:Disgusting and amazing that anyone would think this is acceptable or funny. Having grown up with mainly 'old fashioned' men who wouldn't dream of telling a slightly risque joke in mixed company, the way some men behave now is totally alien to me. I'm sure the men I grew up with and worked with weren't angels, one or two I worked with certainly weren'tbut such behaviour as I see today was totally unacceptable . The problem is as well I think that some women behave as badly as some men do, so it makes people think anything goes, its all a bit of a laugh self respect and respect for others seems a thing of the past. That said I suppose I'm a thing of the past as well.

It's about total lack of respect. I'm not sure exactly why men think this is acceptable or funny. Is it because social standards have dropped? Is it because some women think it's ok to behave like one of the lads? Is it because of more female equality? Is it because men feel less protective and nurturing towards females? Is it down to internet porn and men thinking women are 'up for it'? The permutations are endless.

I really hope they criminalise this. If you go on Twitter, there many men who think it's a joke that this is even taken seriously.

I don't think there is any rules on social behaviour these days, anything goes, you have the right to express yourself however you wish, obligations, which usually balance rights are no more, from where I'm sitting anyway. Like the child on a flight to the US from Germany who climbed all over the seats 'and screamed for eight hours all mommy said was 'calm down honey' a few times, guess he was expressing himself. What's he going to grow up to think he can do and find funny with impunity.

Vintage wrote:Disgusting and amazing that anyone would think this is acceptable or funny. Having grown up with mainly 'old fashioned' men who wouldn't dream of telling a slightly risque joke in mixed company, the way some men behave now is totally alien to me. I'm sure the men I grew up with and worked with weren't angels, one or two I worked with certainly weren'tbut such behaviour as I see today was totally unacceptable . The problem is as well I think that some women behave as badly as some men do, so it makes people think anything goes, its all a bit of a laugh self respect and respect for others seems a thing of the past. That said I suppose I'm a thing of the past as well.

You do know that men in the “olden days” were still perving, touching their secretary’s arses, buggering little boys and fingering little girls, don’t you?
Nothing has changed except now, we hear more about it.

I'm surprised that "upskirting" isn't illegal already; surely it could be shown in court, at least by a decent prosecuting counsel, as being a case of indecent assault or at the very least one of outraging public decency.

I do have some difficulty with the suggestion that misogyny per se should be regarded as a "hate crime" - unless it manifests itself in a form that, say, results in something like discrimination socially or in the workplace, the active promotion of open hostility, social exclusion or sexual objectification.

Criminalising some man who "hates" women simply because they are not male would, in my opinion, open up a legal minefield. Are we to legislate to control thought (shades of 1984?). Should we make it illegal for a gay man to decide that he wishes to marry and live with another man because they "hate" women, any more than we should make it illegal for two lesbian women to marry and live together because they both feel that they "hate" men?

The proposal is as preposterous as it would be unworkable, and should be thought through properly and sensibly rather than against the background of currently fashionable campaigns and causes celebres.

eddie wrote:

Vintage wrote:Disgusting and amazing that anyone would think this is acceptable or funny. Having grown up with mainly 'old fashioned' men who wouldn't dream of telling a slightly risque joke in mixed company, the way some men behave now is totally alien to me. I'm sure the men I grew up with and worked with weren't angels, one or two I worked with certainly weren'tbut such behaviour as I see today was totally unacceptable . The problem is as well I think that some women behave as badly as some men do, so it makes people think anything goes, its all a bit of a laugh self respect and respect for others seems a thing of the past. That said I suppose I'm a thing of the past as well.

You do know that men in the “olden days” were still perving, touching their secretary’s arses,  buggering little boys and fingering little girls, don’t you?
Nothing has changed except now, we hear more about it.

Yes, I do know of people who did all that, what I think I was saying that on the whole the majority of men I knew, even at work, behaved well and respectfully, . There were a few who didn't but in my experience they were definately a minority and just people who happened to cross my path. All the kids knew the area perv and stayed well away from him. I've taken lifts from people I didn't know, we all did, wouldn't do it these days at that age or now, naivety maybe but most people felt safer back then. My mother sometimes had to walk home at night, about 6 miles, if she was lucky, someone might come along and give her a lift home, no payment of any kind expected.
I watched a programme last night about boarding schools and the pervy teachers who when found out, if indeed anyone took any notice, were given glowing references to go to the next school.

I don’t think people are more perverted nowadays, that’s what I mean, they’re just more open about it.

I walk a lot in the dark, I always have. I walk the ten minutes home from my friend’s house at 3am sometimes. I don’t find myself being fearful either, perhaps that’s stupid but I don’t.

I don't know whether male behaviour has gotten worse over the last few decades or better.
It's certainl changed, but then so has behaviour by women.
In the 60's and 70's there was no ladette culture as there is now....as in women being accepted to behave like men.... so because it wasn't accepted not that many did it.
Women also handled men better ime, if they felt they had been disrespected they would often slap a mans face, or show him up in public....whereas now (thanks to equality) the man may possibly retaliate.

Obviously there has been a backlash because so many women now come forwards citing historical sexual abuse....some genuine some pathetic.

As for upskirting (which is a new term to me) it should be made illegal, its definitely overstepping the mark.

You’ll never stop misogyny sadly, you can’t legislate against what people think in their own minds, but outward manifestations of it like upskirting can and should be made illegal.

Syl wrote:I don't know whether male behaviour has gotten worse over the last few decades or better.
It's certainl changed, but then so has behaviour by women.
In the 60's and 70's there was no ladette culture as there is now....as in women being accepted to behave like men.... so because it wasn't accepted not that many did it.
Women also handled men better ime, if they felt they had been disrespected they would often slap a mans face, or show him up in public....whereas now (thanks to equality) the man may possibly retaliate.

Obviously there has been a backlash because so many women now come forwards citing historical sexual abuse....some genuine some pathetic.

As for upskirting (which is a new term to me) it should be made illegal, its definitely overstepping the mark.

Actually Syl there was ladette culture before then, going back to at least the 1800s.

This is a really great book on the subject.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/features/bad-girls-a-history-of-unladylike-behaviour-8533215.html%3Famp

Cass wrote:

Syl wrote:I don't know whether male behaviour has gotten worse over the last few decades or better.
It's certainl changed, but then so has behaviour by women.
In the 60's and 70's there was no ladette culture as there is now....as in women being accepted to behave like men.... so because it wasn't accepted not that many did it.
Women also handled men better ime, if they felt they had been disrespected they would often slap a mans face, or show him up in public....whereas now (thanks to equality) the man may possibly retaliate.

Obviously there has been a backlash because so many women now come forwards citing historical sexual abuse....some genuine some pathetic.

As for upskirting (which is a new term to me) it should be made illegal, its definitely overstepping the mark.

Actually Syl there was ladette culture before then, going back to at least the 1800s.

This is a really great book on the subject.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/features/bad-girls-a-history-of-unladylike-behaviour-8533215.html%3Famp

I bet that's an interesting read.

I'm sure there have always been women who buck the trend Cass, but I don't think they were as accepted socially as they certainly are now, in fact some of them are role models...especially for the young.

Take sex....of course some women have always been promiscuous, but they didn't flaunt it. Having children before marriage, children to numerous men, one night stands, and so on....it just wasn't socially accepted, now its the norm.

Syl wrote:

Cass wrote:

Actually Syl there was ladette culture before then, going back to at least the 1800s.

This is a really great book on the subject.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/features/bad-girls-a-history-of-unladylike-behaviour-8533215.html%3Famp

I bet that's an interesting read.

I'm sure there have always been women who buck the trend Cass, but I don't think they were as accepted socially as they certainly are now, in fact some of them are role models...especially for the young.

Take sex....of course some women have always been promiscuous, but they didn't flaunt it. Having children before marriage, children to numerous men, one night stands, and so on....it just wasn't socially accepted, now its the norm.

It is a great book. So much do that I think I will reread it

True but then again lots of things back in the day such as homosexuality, owning other people, women being property of their husbands or fathers etc...were socially accepted. Things and times change.

As to role models? Well I personally wouldn’t call most of them that for various reasons. I’ve slways disliked the idea of role models. People can admire others for whatever reason, but should try and be the best version of themselves.

Social media and connectivity 24/7 has gone so fast and has a lot of pluses but also a lot of negatives. Nature of the beast.

I read a survey only a couple of years back, and when young girls were asked who they aspired to be like when they grew, the top answer was.....Katie Price.

I think youngsters have always had role models, Cass or people they admire in one way or another.
I still remember that I wanted to be like sassy Dee when I was about 10....and that was way before the Grease song came out.

Syl wrote:I read a survey only a couple of years back, and when young girls were asked who they aspired to be like when they grew, the top answer was.....Katie Price.

I think youngsters have always had role models, Cass or people they admire in one way or another.
I still remember that I wanted to be like sassy Dee when I was about 10....and that was way before the Grease song came out.

I really don’t like her but I admire the way she is fighting the online bullies.

Ok now I’ve got a picture of you ala Olivia John in the tight pants at the end of the movie!

Cass wrote:

Syl wrote:I read a survey only a couple of years back, and when young girls were asked who they aspired to be like when they grew, the top answer was.....Katie Price.

I think youngsters have always had role models, Cass or people they admire in one way or another.
I still remember that I wanted to be like sassy Dee when I was about 10....and that was way before the Grease song came out.

I really don’t like her but I admire the way she is fighting the online bullies.

Ok now I’ve got a picture of you ala Olivia John in the tight pants at the end of the movie!

Lol......I meant this sassy Dee Cass....sadly no longer with us, and the image she portrayed in films couldn't have been further from the truth from the life she actually did live.

I’ve never been into one night stands. It takes a great mind to get me into bed, not a sexy dance in a night club.

Syl wrote:

Cass wrote:

I really don’t like her but I admire the way she is fighting the online bullies.

Ok now I’ve got a picture of you ala Olivia John in the tight pants at the end of the movie!

Lol......I meant this sassy Dee Cass....sadly no longer with us, and the image she portrayed in films couldn't have been further from the truth from the life she actually did live.

She was beautiful x

eddie wrote:I’ve never been into one night stands. It takes a great mind to get me into bed, not a sexy dance in a night club.

Exactly. But I’m not going to judge those who do.

Isn’t it interesting though that men who had numerous one night stands were applauded while women were shamed.

Cass wrote:

eddie wrote:I’ve never been into one night stands. It takes a great mind to get me into bed, not a sexy dance in a night club.

Exactly. But I’m not going to judge those who do.

Isn’t it interesting though that men who had numerous one night stands were applauded while women were shamed.

Yeah, double standards. Personally, I probably wouldn’t date a promiscuous guy either.

eddie wrote:

Cass wrote:

Exactly. But I’m not going to judge those who do.

Isn’t it interesting though that men who had numerous one night stands were applauded while women were shamed.

Yeah, double standards. Personally, I probably wouldn’t date a promiscuous guy either.

Me either normally although I had a quick 2 month fling with a guy who was. Never any doubt on either side that it was more than what it was. Just fun and great sex with no deep emotional tie.

eddie wrote:

Vintage wrote:Disgusting and amazing that anyone would think this is acceptable or funny. Having grown up with mainly 'old fashioned' men who wouldn't dream of telling a slightly risque joke in mixed company, the way some men behave now is totally alien to me. I'm sure the men I grew up with and worked with weren't angels, one or two I worked with certainly weren'tbut such behaviour as I see today was totally unacceptable . The problem is as well I think that some women behave as badly as some men do, so it makes people think anything goes, its all a bit of a laugh self respect and respect for others seems a thing of the past. That said I suppose I'm a thing of the past as well.

You do know that men in the “olden days” were still perving, touching their secretary’s arses,  buggering little boys and fingering little girls, don’t you?
Nothing has changed except now, we hear more about it.

What has changed is the capacity for females to have a voice.