A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules

by Guest Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:04 am

First topic message reminder :

Forcing a baker to provide a wedding cake for a same-sex marriage over her religious objections violates her right to free speech, a California judge has ruled.

“A wedding cake is not just a cake in a Free Speech analysis,” wrote Superior Court Judge David R. Lampe in a decision late Monday. “It is an artistic expression by the person making it that is to be used traditionally as a centerpiece in the celebration of a marriage. There could not be a greater form of expressive conduct,” he said.

As a result, a state anti-discrimination law, which applies to all kinds of other goods and services, does not apply to the baker, who lives in Bakersfield.

The judge’s reasoning is similar to that of the “cake artist” awaiting a U.S. Supreme Court ruling. In that case, Jack C. Phillips, a Colorado baker, is arguing that the First Amendment’s free speech and free exercise of religion clauses give him the right to refuse wedding services to a same-sex couple, despite public accommodations laws that require businesses that are open to the public to treat all potential customers equally. The court heard arguments in Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission in December.

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SOURCE WASHINGTON POST

by HoratioTarr Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:51 pm

Syl wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:Is the baker refusing the make the cake because the couple are gay or refusing to make a gay themed cake?

Apart from not having the traditional bride and groom figures on the top, I wonder what a gay themed wedding cake would entail.

If she's prepared to make an ordinary cake with no tacky bride and groom figures, then what's the big deal. If someone wanted a man and a sheep figurines would they still be unable to refuse? affraid

by Raggamuffin Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:56 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:Is the baker refusing the make the cake because the couple are gay or refusing to make a gay themed cake?

Neither. She just didn't want to make a cake for a gay wedding.

by Maddog Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:41 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:Is the baker refusing the make the cake because the couple are gay or refusing to make a gay themed cake?

The gay couple could have bought a cake. What the baker is refusing to do is create a custom designed cake for their wedding.

Why would the gay couple want this particular baker to design rheir cake anyway?

by Raggamuffin Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:57 pm

Maddog wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:Is the baker refusing the make the cake because the couple are gay or refusing to make a gay themed cake?

The gay couple could have bought a cake. What the baker is refusing to do is create a custom designed cake for their wedding.

Why would the gay couple want this particular baker to design rheir cake anyway?

I wonder about that too. On the one hand, I can see how it could be hurtful for the couple for someone to refuse to make them a cake because they don't agree with gay marriage, but on the other hand, there were other local bakers who would do it. Are some gay people hunting for bakers who they think will refuse so they can sue them?

All this suing business is getting a bit silly.

by Maddog Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:07 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Maddog wrote:

The gay couple could have bought a cake. What the baker is refusing to do is create a custom designed cake for their wedding.

Why would the gay couple want this particular baker to design rheir cake anyway?

I wonder about that too. On the one hand, I can see how it could be hurtful for the couple for someone to refuse to make them a cake because they don't agree with gay marriage, but on the other hand, there were other local bakers who would do it. Are some gay people hunting for bakers who they think will refuse so they can sue them?

All this suing business is getting a bit silly.

Of course there were other bakers that would bake the cake. The gay couple didn't seek this baker out because they actually wanted a cake from there. They drove past all of the other bakeries to get to this one to make their point and to punish someone who didn't agree with their lifestyle.

by nicko Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:40 pm

Have a green thing for that, that's been my thought's all along !

by Raggamuffin Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:56 pm

Maddog wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I wonder about that too. On the one hand, I can see how it could be hurtful for the couple for someone to refuse to make them a cake because they don't agree with gay marriage, but on the other hand, there were other local bakers who would do it. Are some gay people hunting for bakers who they think will refuse so they can sue them?

All this suing business is getting a bit silly.

Of course there were other bakers that would bake the cake. The gay couple didn't seek this baker out because they actually wanted a cake from there. They drove past all of the other bakeries to get to this one to make their point and to punish someone who didn't agree with their lifestyle.

If they did seek out the baker, they've now lost, so perhaps this silly business of trying to catch people out will die out.

by Raggamuffin Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:02 pm

Even if a gay couple are annoyed at someone not wanting to make a cake for them, do they really want to see someone put out of business? That's out of order IMO.

by HoratioTarr Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:07 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:Is the baker refusing the make the cake because the couple are gay or refusing to make a gay themed cake?

Neither. She just didn't want to make a cake for a gay wedding.

To be honest, that's her prerogative. She'd probably go out of business when word got round anyway.

by Syl Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:10 pm

Maddog wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:Is the baker refusing the make the cake because the couple are gay or refusing to make a gay themed cake?

The gay couple could have bought a cake. What the baker is refusing to do is create a custom designed cake for their wedding.

Why would the gay couple want this particular baker to design rheir cake anyway?

My thoughts too.
If she had been forced to bake the bloody thing she could have done anything to it....its not unknown in the catering business for staff to be very inventive when they are cooking/baking for someone they don't like. pale

by Raggamuffin Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:19 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Neither. She just didn't want to make a cake for a gay wedding.

To be honest, that's her prerogative. She'd probably go out of business when word got round anyway.

That would depend on whether people cared or not. Laughing

by veya_victaous Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:32 am

Maddog wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:
Maddog wrote:

The gay couple could have bought a cake. What the baker is refusing to do is create a custom designed cake for their wedding.

Why would the gay couple want this particular baker to design rheir cake anyway?

I wonder about that too. On the one hand, I can see how it could be hurtful for the couple for someone to refuse to make them a cake because they don't agree with gay marriage, but on the other hand, there were other local bakers who would do it. Are some gay people hunting for bakers who they think will refuse so they can sue them?

All this suing business is getting a bit silly.

Of course there were other bakers that would bake the cake. The gay couple didn't seek this baker out because they actually wanted a cake from there. They drove past all of the other bakeries to get to this one to make their point and to punish someone who didn't agree with their lifestyle.

which they are entitled to do Rolling Eyes

the bakery is trying to Punish someone that doesn't agree with their lifestyle too
What goes around comes around Cool

And Even a Straight man I totally want to see them go out of business too.
Because this comes down to the right to Love versus the right to sell Cakes, I 100% support the right to Love over Cakes Sales.

by Maddog Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:45 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Of course there were other bakers that would bake the cake. The gay couple didn't seek this baker out because they actually wanted a cake from there. They drove past all of the other bakeries to get to this one to make their point and to punish someone who didn't agree with their lifestyle.

which they are entitled to do
the bakery is trying to Punish someone that doesn't agree with their lifestyle too
What goes around comes around

And Even a Straight man I totally want to see them go out of business too.
Because this comes down to the right to Love versus the right to sell Cakes, I 100% support the right to Love over Cakes Sales.

Then don't buy their cakes.

by Raggamuffin Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:01 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Of course there were other bakers that would bake the cake. The gay couple didn't seek this baker out because they actually wanted a cake from there. They drove past all of the other bakeries to get to this one to make their point and to punish someone who didn't agree with their lifestyle.

which they are entitled to do
the bakery is trying to Punish someone that doesn't agree with their lifestyle too
What goes around comes around

And Even a Straight man I totally want to see them go out of business too.
Because this comes down to the right to Love versus the right to sell Cakes, I 100% support the right to Love over Cakes Sales.

I don't agree with that. If she had refused to sell them any cake just because they're gay, that would be different. I think that going out of business is a bit more serious than having to get a cake elsewhere, and putting someone out of business is vindictive - not much "love" there. They do have the right to love and to marry anyway - that's nothing to do with a cake is it?

by Maddog Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:23 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:

which they are entitled to do
the bakery is trying to Punish someone that doesn't agree with their lifestyle too
What goes around comes around

And Even a Straight man I totally want to see them go out of business too.
Because this comes down to the right to Love versus the right to sell Cakes, I 100% support the right to Love over Cakes Sales.

I don't agree with that. If she had refused to sell them any cake just because they're gay, that would be different. I think that going out of business is a bit more serious than having to get a cake elsewhere, and putting someone out of business is vindictive - not much "love" there. They do have the right to love and to marry anyway - that's nothing to do with a cake is it?

Yes, they have the right to get married. They don't have the right to force the Imam down at the local Mosque to marry them either. Wink

by veya_victaous Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:21 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Of course there were other bakers that would bake the cake. The gay couple didn't seek this baker out because they actually wanted a cake from there. They drove past all of the other bakeries to get to this one to make their point and to punish someone who didn't agree with their lifestyle.

which they are entitled to do
the bakery is trying to Punish someone that doesn't agree with their lifestyle too
What goes around comes around

And Even a Straight man I totally want to see them go out of business too.
Because this comes down to the right to Love versus the right to sell Cakes, I 100% support the right to Love over Cakes Sales.

I don't agree with that. If she had refused to sell them any cake just because they're gay, that would be different. I think that going out of business is a bit more serious than having to get a cake elsewhere, and putting someone out of business is vindictive - not much "love" there. They do have the right to love and to marry anyway - that's nothing to do with a cake is it?

Well I don't agree with that sentiment.
Closing a Bad business is a Good thing. And if a Business is Bad because it has a terrible Owner then it a really good thing.

it's Quite Simple
Times are changing, Fairytales are NOT acceptable reasons for actions
time for the persecutors to be persecuted if they cannot evolve

by Maddog Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:24 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I don't agree with that. If she had refused to sell them any cake just because they're gay, that would be different. I think that going out of business is a bit more serious than having to get a cake elsewhere, and putting someone out of business is vindictive - not much "love" there. They do have the right to love and to marry anyway - that's nothing to do with a cake is it?

Well I don't agree with that sentiment.
Closing a Bad business is a Good thing. And if a Business is Bad because it has a terrible Owner then it a really good thing.

it's Quite Simple
Times are changing, Fairytales are NOT acceptable reasons for actions
time for the persecutors to be persecuted if they cannot evolve

If it's truly a bad business, it won't survive. There is no need to use force.

by veya_victaous Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:32 am

Maddog wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I don't agree with that. If she had refused to sell them any cake just because they're gay, that would be different. I think that going out of business is a bit more serious than having to get a cake elsewhere, and putting someone out of business is vindictive - not much "love" there. They do have the right to love and to marry anyway - that's nothing to do with a cake is it?

Well I don't agree with that sentiment.
Closing a Bad business is a Good thing. And if a Business is Bad because it has a terrible Owner then it a really good thing.

it's Quite Simple
Times are changing, Fairytales are NOT acceptable reasons for actions
time for the persecutors to be persecuted if they cannot evolve

If it's truly a bad business, it won't survive. There is no need to use force.

if it is Bad Economically that is true
But it is not true about those that are Bad ethically Rolling Eyes

As Les so clearly pointed out in the other thread on this
There is no reason that any customer should know or be made aware of bigotry of a business owner or employee.
The fact this bakery can't manage to separate their PERSONAL beliefs from their business activities is not societies problem, if it were just an employee they could be fired but since it is the owner the result is closing the business.

by Maddog Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:37 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Maddog wrote:

If it's truly a bad business, it won't survive. There is no need to use force.

if it is Bad Economically that is true
But it is not true about those that are Bad ethically

As Les so clearly pointed out in the other thread on this
There is no reason that any customer should know or be made aware of bigotry of a business owner or employee.
The fact this bakery can't manage to separate their PERSONAL beliefs from their business activities is not societies problem, if it were just an employee they could be fired but since it is the owner the result is closing the business.

If you give enough people want they want, you will be successful. That's what a business person does. Creates a good or a service and is rewarded if that good or service is what people want. No need for the government to tell people what business gives them what they want. Adults can make up their own mind. At least I can. You may need a little help. tongue

by veya_victaous Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:46 am

Maddog wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
Maddog wrote:

If it's truly a bad business, it won't survive. There is no need to use force.

if it is Bad Economically that is true
But it is not true about those that are Bad ethically

As Les so clearly pointed out in the other thread on this
There is no reason that any customer should know or be made aware of bigotry of a business owner or employee.
The fact this bakery can't manage to separate their PERSONAL beliefs from their business activities is not societies problem, if it were just an employee they could be fired but since it is the owner the result is closing the business.

If you give enough people want they want, you will be successful. That's what a business person does. Creates a good or a service and is rewarded if that good or service is what people want. No need for the government to tell people what business gives them what they want. Adults can make up their own mind. At least I can. You may need a little help.

LOLOLOLOLOL
it's not the 1800's that is not the case in modern business
it hasn't been for 50 year.

And easy to show it's false
Monsanto, Apple, Uber, Facebook fuck the list is huge of unethical companies that are successful... while their unethical behaviours is not FORCEFULLY regulated by Governments

and considering how readily you prattle off the Propaganda of the Corpocray, in the face of facts and logic. I doubt you can make up you 'own' mind. tongue

by Maddog Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:49 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Maddog wrote:

If you give enough people want they want, you will be successful. That's what a business person does. Creates a good or a service and is rewarded if that good or service is what people want. No need for the government to tell people what business gives them what they want. Adults can make up their own mind. At least I can. You may need a little help.

LOLOLOLOLOL
it's not the 1800's that is not the case in modern business
it hasn't been for 50 year.

And easy to show it's false
Monsanto, Apple, Uber, Facebook fuck the list is huge of unethical companies that are successful... while their unethical behaviours is not FORCEFULLY regulated by Governments

and considering how readily you prattle off the Propaganda of the Corpocray, in the face of facts and logic. I doubt you can make up you 'own' mind.

Are you not capable of choosing which companies you think should be rewarded with your money?

A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules

A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules

Re: A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules

Re: A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules

Re: A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules

Re: A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules

Re: A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules

Re: A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules

Re: A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules

Re: A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules

Re: A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules

Re: A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules

Re: A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules

Re: A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules

Re: A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules

Re: A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules

Re: A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules

Re: A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules

Re: A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules

Re: A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules

Re: A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules

Re: A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules

Re: A wedding cake is an ‘artistic expression’ that a baker may deny to a same-sex couple, Calif. judge rules