Trump Launches Solar Panel Trade War with China

by Maddog Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:27 pm

The Trump administration is imposing a 30 percent tariff on solar panels and modules imported from China. The first 2.5 gigawatts of imported solar cells will be exempted from the tariff. The tariff will drop 5 percent per year falling to 25, 20, and 15 percent in the second, third, and fourth years respectively. Largely due to the import surge of lower-priced solar panels, 25 U.S. solar panel manufacturers have gone out of business since 2012.

Last year, solar panel manufacturers Suniva and SolarWorld filed Section 201 the Trade Act of 1974 petitions at the International Trade Commission (ITC) arguing that Chinese imports constituted a "substantial cause of serious injury" to their businesses. Interestingly, a Section 201 finding does not require a finding of an unfair trade practice, as do the antidumping and countervailing duty laws; merely losing to competition is enough.

https://reason.com/blog/2018/01/23/trumps-job-killing-solar-panel-trade-war

An idea so dumb, that Bernie Sanders agrees with it. Shocked

by nicko Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:36 pm

Wish they would ban the sale of Chinese made toys to this country, most are badly put together, contain sharp bits of metal and dangerous levels of lead in the paint.They also send millions of counterfit items !

by Maddog Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:39 pm

nicko wrote:Wish they would ban the sale of Chinese made toys to this country, most are badly put together, contain sharp bits of metal and dangerous levels of lead in the paint.They also send millions of counterfit items !

Just tax the hell out of them making them more expensive. That always solves the problem. Wink

by Original Quill Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:16 pm

nicko wrote:Wish they would ban the sale of Chinese made toys to this country, most are badly put together, contain sharp bits of metal and dangerous levels of lead in the paint.They also send millions of counterfit items !

That's a need for regulations, nicko. Not a need for trade wars.

by Original Quill Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:24 pm

Throughout the campaign Trump was saying what a good negotiator he is. This is what he had in mind...instituting a new wave of trade wars.

It comes down to this: it will be paid for by the American taxpayer, or it will be paid for by the American consumer. Plus, putting solar power out of business, will leave 150,000 out of work according to Good Morning America this am. What a good negotiator, eh?

Same thing with the wall, btw. 'And Mexico will pay for it' simply means that the American consumer will pay for it. Meantime, let's appropriate $1.5-billion of taxpayer money in advance of Mexico's check.

It's like the American citizen has two assholes...one for the consumer stick, and one for the taxpayer stick, both of which Trump will shove right up the American ass...Lol, that's the meaning of Make America Great Again.

by Maddog Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:30 pm

Original Quill wrote:Throughout the campaign Trump was saying what a good negotiator he is. This is what he had in mind...instituting a new wave of trade wars.

It comes down to this: it will be paid for by the American taxpayer, or it will be paid for by the American consumer. Plus, putting solar power out of business, will leave 150,000 out of work according to Good Morning America this am. What a good negotiator, eh?

Same thing with the wall, btw. 'And Mexico will pay for it' simply means that the American consumer will pay for it. Meantime, let's appropriate $1.5-billion of taxpayer money in advance of Mexico's check.

It's like the American citizen has two assholes...one for the consumer stick, and one for the taxpayer stick, both of which Trump will shove right up the American ass...Lol, that's the meaning of Make America Great Again.

SANDERS: In the House and Senate, I voted against all of these terrible trade agreements, NAFTA, CAFTA, permanent normal trades relations with China. Republicans and Democrats, they say, "oh, we'll create all these jobs by having a trade agreement with China." Well, the answer is, they were wrong, wrong, wrong. Over the years, we have lost millions of decent paying jobs. These trade agreements have forced wages down in America so the average worker in America today is working longer hours for lower wages.

Like I said, an idea so dumb, that Sanders agrees with it.

by veya_victaous Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:06 pm

Original Quill wrote:Throughout the campaign Trump was saying what a good negotiator he is. This is what he had in mind...instituting a new wave of trade wars.

It comes down to this: it will be paid for by the American taxpayer, or it will be paid for by the American consumer. Plus, putting solar power out of business, will leave 150,000 out of work according to Good Morning America this am. What a good negotiator, eh?

Same thing with the wall, btw. 'And Mexico will pay for it' simply means that the American consumer will pay for it. Meantime, let's appropriate $1.5-billion of taxpayer money in advance of Mexico's check.

It's like the American citizen has two assholes...one for the consumer stick, and one for the taxpayer stick, both of which Trump will shove right up the American ass...Lol, that's the meaning of Make America Great Again.

it's quite apparent that Trump doesn't understand what a trade deficit is, he talks about it like it's a loss.
so from Trump understanding Mexico is 'paying' if there is less trade deficit with the USA, which is completely incorrect, it just means that the USA has less Mexican made goods(because he artificially raised the cost of the goods for American consumers) .

by Maddog Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:42 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Throughout the campaign Trump was saying what a good negotiator he is. This is what he had in mind...instituting a new wave of trade wars.

It comes down to this: it will be paid for by the American taxpayer, or it will be paid for by the American consumer. Plus, putting solar power out of business, will leave 150,000 out of work according to Good Morning America this am. What a good negotiator, eh?

Same thing with the wall, btw. 'And Mexico will pay for it' simply means that the American consumer will pay for it. Meantime, let's appropriate $1.5-billion of taxpayer money in advance of Mexico's check.

It's like the American citizen has two assholes...one for the consumer stick, and one for the taxpayer stick, both of which Trump will shove right up the American ass...Lol, that's the meaning of Make America Great Again.

it's quite apparent that Trump doesn't understand what a trade deficit is, he talks about it like it's a loss.
so from Trump understanding Mexico is 'paying' if there is less trade deficit with the USA, which is completely incorrect, it just means that the USA has less Mexican made goods(because he artificially raised the cost of the goods for American consumers) .

What do trade deficits or Mexico have to do with this?

What is the point of starting a thread, with a particular topic?

by Original Quill Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:35 am

Maddog wrote:What do trade deficits or Mexico have to do with this?

Have you not been listening? Trump now argues that he didn't mean Mexico would send us a check. He is contending that he will place a tariff on goods from Mexico, thus recovering the cost of the wall.

Veya is absolutely right:

veya wrote:it just means that the USA has less Mexican made goods(because he artificially raised the cost of the goods for American consumers) .

Or, if America is used to American brands, now made in Mexico, America will pay more for American products--which Trump contends is paying for the wall.

Veya is right. Trump doesn't understand trade.

by Maddog Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:48 am

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:What do trade deficits or Mexico have to do with this?

Have you not been listening? Trump now argues that he didn't mean Mexico would send us a check. He is contending that he will place a tariff on goods from Mexico, thus recovering the cost of the wall.

Veya is absolutely right:

veya wrote:it just means that the USA has less Mexican made goods(because he artificially raised the cost of the goods for American consumers) .

Or, if America is used to American brands, now made in Mexico, America will pay more for American products--which Trump contends is paying for the wall.

Veya is right. Trump doesn't understand trade.

Trump Launches Solar Panel Trade War with China

by veya_victaous Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:09 am

Maddog wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Throughout the campaign Trump was saying what a good negotiator he is. This is what he had in mind...instituting a new wave of trade wars.

It comes down to this: it will be paid for by the American taxpayer, or it will be paid for by the American consumer. Plus, putting solar power out of business, will leave 150,000 out of work according to Good Morning America this am. What a good negotiator, eh?

Same thing with the wall, btw. 'And Mexico will pay for it' simply means that the American consumer will pay for it. Meantime, let's appropriate $1.5-billion of taxpayer money in advance of Mexico's check.

It's like the American citizen has two assholes...one for the consumer stick, and one for the taxpayer stick, both of which Trump will shove right up the American ass...Lol, that's the meaning of Make America Great Again.

it's quite apparent that Trump doesn't understand what a trade deficit is, he talks about it like it's a loss.
so from Trump understanding Mexico is 'paying' if there is less trade deficit with the USA, which is completely incorrect, it just means that the USA has less Mexican made goods(because he artificially raised the cost of the goods for American consumers) .

What do trade deficits or Mexico have to do with this?

What is the point of starting a thread, with a particular topic?

cause this is the same shit.
Trump thinks Trade Deficit is means Loss or expenditure which is doesn't.

a Tariff on Chinese Solar panels just means you pay more for the solar panels there is NO profit or loss reductions. I can hardly see it being a trade wart either, a trade war would mean that Trump made the US industry competitive, all he has done is increased the cost in the USA for Americans.

And like the rest of the world we laugh at the USA as it now faces from China exactly what it did to us in the 90's. Laughing

by 'Wolfie Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:15 am

With the USA producing fuck-all solar panels domestically anyway, the big winners from more expensive Chinese products will be other countries exporting to the USA..

Trump's political idiocy will effectively be giving a boost to those products coming in from the likes of India, Israel, Japan, Singapore, Germany, Taiwan, Italy, even Mexico and Brazil..

All China has to do then, is shift even more of their exports towards other potential markets (e.g. Middle East, Australia, various African countries..).

by Maddog Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:58 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Maddog wrote:

What do trade deficits or Mexico have to do with this?

What is the point of starting a thread, with a particular topic?

cause this is the same shit.
Trump thinks Trade Deficit is means Loss or expenditure which is doesn't.

a Tariff on Chinese Solar panels just means you pay more for the solar panels there is NO profit or loss reductions. I can hardly see it being a trade wart either, a trade war would mean that Trump made the US industry competitive, all he has done is increased the cost in the USA for Americans.

And like the rest of the world we laugh at the USA as it now faces from China exactly what it did to us in the 90's.

No, this is about tariffs, not trade deficits. Two completely different topics. It's not the same shit at all.

And I agree, I think tariffs are stupid. Unfortunately, people like Bernie Sanders and Trump don't agree with me.

by Ben Reilly Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:21 am

Maddog wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
Maddog wrote:

What do trade deficits or Mexico have to do with this?

What is the point of starting a thread, with a particular topic?

cause this is the same shit.
Trump thinks Trade Deficit is means Loss or expenditure which is doesn't.

a Tariff on Chinese Solar panels just means you pay more for the solar panels there is NO profit or loss reductions. I can hardly see it being a trade wart either, a trade war would mean that Trump made the US industry competitive, all he has done is increased the cost in the USA for Americans.

And like the rest of the world we laugh at the USA as it now faces from China exactly what it did to us in the 90's.

No, this is about tariffs, not trade deficits. Two completely different topics. It's not the same shit at all.

And I agree, I think tariffs are stupid. Unfortunately, people like Bernie Sanders and Trump don't agree with me.

Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders
Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders
Bernie Sanders

by Maddog Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:23 am

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

No, this is about tariffs, not trade deficits. Two completely different topics. It's not the same shit at all.

And I agree, I think tariffs are stupid. Unfortunately, people like Bernie Sanders and Trump don't agree with me.

Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders
Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders
Bernie Sanders

Wow. Someone finally caught on to the fact that Trump and Sanders agree on this particular issue. Are you sure you don't want to bring up Mexico? Rolling Eyes

by veya_victaous Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:25 am

AND
Trumps whole thing about China is that the USA has a TRADE DEFICIT with China Rolling Eyes

It's not like this is a one off but part of a series of policies implemented by Trump that Shows the USA's retreat from Global trade arrangements.

This is unlikely to end well for the USA, cause while Trump removed you from the TPP and through policies like this further reduces the USAs trading partners other Asian Pacific Nations are increasing their trade and removing barriers like tariffs.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-24/what-is-the-new-tpp-and-what-does-it-mean-for-australia/9357020

by Ben Reilly Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:25 am

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

No, this is about tariffs, not trade deficits. Two completely different topics. It's not the same shit at all.

And I agree, I think tariffs are stupid. Unfortunately, people like Bernie Sanders and Trump don't agree with me.

Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders
Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders
Bernie Sanders

Wow. Someone finally caught on to the fact that Trump and Sanders agree on this particular issue. Are you sure you don't want to bring up Mexico?

Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders

by Maddog Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:33 am

veya_victaous wrote:AND
Trumps whole thing about China is that the USA has a TRADE DEFICIT with China

It's not like this is a one off but part of a series of policies implemented by Trump that Shows the USA's retreat from Global trade arrangements.

This is unlikely to end well for the USA, cause while Trump removed you from the TPP and through policies like this further reduces the USAs trading partners other Asian Pacific Nations are increasing their trade and removing barriers like tariffs.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-24/what-is-the-new-tpp-and-what-does-it-mean-for-australia/9357020

This isn't about the trade deficit. It's about China selling solar panels cheaper than the US can make them. They are two different topics all together.

And I already said I'm opposed to tariffs as I support free trade. Glad to see you coming around to my way of thinking. Rolling Eyes

by Maddog Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:34 am

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Wow. Someone finally caught on to the fact that Trump and Sanders agree on this particular issue. Are you sure you don't want to bring up Mexico?

Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders

SANDERS: I voted against NAFTA, CAFTA, PNTR with China. I think they have been a disaster for the American worker. A lot of corporations that shut down here move abroad. Working people understand that after NAFTA, CAFTA, PNTR with China we have lost millions of decent paying jobs. Since 2001, 60,000 factories in America have been shut down. We're in a race to the bottom, where our wages are going down. Is all of that attributable to trade? No. Is a lot of it? Yes. TPP was written by corporate America and the pharmaceutical industry and Wall Street. That's what this trade agreement is about. I do not want American workers to competing against people in Vietnam who make 56 cents an hour for a minimum wage. cyclops

by Maddog Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:36 am

Why am I the only person that can say Sanders and Trump have the same position, and it's wrong?

by Ben Reilly Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:03 am

Maddog wrote:Why am I the only person that can say Sanders and Trump have the same position, and it's wrong?

It's just funny how you're bending over backwards to point out that SANDERS IS A PROTECTIONIST TOO!!!!!!! At least it's funny to me. Sanders lost the primary, he's still just one Senator.

That's why I voted for Clinton; I like a lot of Sanders' positions and ideas, but he's not a realist.

by veya_victaous Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:25 am

Maddog wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:AND
Trumps whole thing about China is that the USA has a TRADE DEFICIT with China

It's not like this is a one off but part of a series of policies implemented by Trump that Shows the USA's retreat from Global trade arrangements.

This is unlikely to end well for the USA, cause while Trump removed you from the TPP and through policies like this further reduces the USAs trading partners other Asian Pacific Nations are increasing their trade and removing barriers like tariffs.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-24/what-is-the-new-tpp-and-what-does-it-mean-for-australia/9357020

This isn't about the trade deficit. It's about China selling solar panels cheaper than the US can make them. They are two different topics all together.

And I already said I'm opposed to tariffs as I support free trade. Glad to see you coming around to my way of thinking.

and WHY is it is an issue? Cause Trump Is Afraid of Trade Deficits not understanding that it is Normal to have trade Deficits with some nations and surpluses with others, they Are not a statement of Profit and Loss as his comments around them obviously show he thinks they are.
Why Would any nation consider Tariffs on a specific nation ? to Reduce Imports in order to reduce Trade Deficits Rolling Eyes

(rather than a Tariff on a 'Type of Good' which is for industry protection)

Of fucking Course China sells Cheaper Solar Panels IT STILL WILL after the Tariffs, ALL this tariff will do is reduce the amount sold in the USA reducing the US trade deficit with China because You wont Import as many from China.

If you don't understand that Tarriffs and Trade Deficits/Surpluses are intrinsically related in an inseparable manner than no wonder you can't see the obvious failings of Libertarian economics Rolling Eyes

by Maddog Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:33 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Maddog wrote:

This isn't about the trade deficit. It's about China selling solar panels cheaper than the US can make them. They are two different topics all together.

And I already said I'm opposed to tariffs as I support free trade. Glad to see you coming around to my way of thinking.

and WHY is it is an issue? Cause Trump Is Afraid of Trade Deficits not understanding that it is Normal to have trade Deficits with some nations and surpluses with others, they Are not a statement of Profit and Loss as his comments around them obviously show he thinks they are.
Why Would any nation consider Tariffs on a specific nation ? to Reduce Imports in order to reduce Trade Deficits (rather than a Tariff on a 'Type of Good' which is for industry protection)

Of fucking Course China sells Cheaper Solar Panels IT STILL WILL after the Tariffs, ALL this tariff will do is reduce the amount sold in the USA reducing the US trade deficit with China because You wont Import as many from China.

If you don't understand that Tarriffs and Trade Deficits/Surpluses are intrinsically related in an inseparable manner than no wonder you can't see the obvious failings of Libertarian economics

They are not related at all, and it has nothing to do with libertarian economics, which are generally referred to as Austrian economics anyway. I'm more of a Chicago school proponent myself. tongue

A tariff is a tax on goods imported. A trade deficit is the difference in the dollar value of imports vs exports to a particular country.

They are two different issues. We are discussing tariffs, not the dollar figures of goods imported from a particular country.

by Maddog Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:34 am

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:Why am I the only person that can say Sanders and Trump have the same position, and it's wrong?

It's just funny how you're bending over backwards to point out that SANDERS IS A PROTECTIONIST TOO!!!!!!! At least it's funny to me. Sanders lost the primary, he's still just one Senator.

That's why I voted for Clinton; I like a lot of Sanders' positions and ideas, but he's not a realist.

It's not funny, it's accurate. Cool

by nicko Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:12 am

I was talking about the quality of the goods China is sending us, fuck all to do with Trump, Sanders or any thing else. The stuff is crap. What about the cheap Steel China is swamping us with? Keep to the subject for fuck sake, don't use it as a platform to smack Trump !

by 'Wolfie Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:16 am

nicko wrote:
I was talking about the quality of the goods China is sending us, fuck all to do with Trump, Sanders or any thing else. The stuff is crap. What about the cheap Steel China is swamping us with? Keep to the subject for fuck sake, don't use it as a platform to smack Trump !

The importers/wholesalers have to share responsibility with the Chinese producers when it comes to lower quality products...

If a retailer wants to buy a job lot of tools on price, without worrying about quality or being "fit for purppse", then the wholesaler will provide the cheapest crap he can find. That steel being used in the cheap/"DIY" budget spanners, chisels and screwdrivers out of China is just as likely to be "softer" low carbon steel meant for fencing and tie-wire, rather than the higher grade tool steels, CrMo alloys and various stainless steels that might be specified for higher level "professional" and top shelf quality tools.

When it comes to the 'dumping' of sub-standard bulk steel supplies onto British and Euro' markets, that's where the relevant authorities should be cracking down, using existing "anti-dumping" laws, tariffs and fines..

I've recently seen some relatively high quality tools coming out of China, where they are producing some items close to the mainstream/ middle range tools from thewell known American, British, Japanese and German companies -- while at the same time, we are seeing companies like Stanley, Irwin (Record, Marples), Bosch, Makita, Ryobi, DeWalt, Milwaukee, AEG, sourcing their lower ranges from those same Chinese factories...

If those Chinese factories want to keep on getting orders from reputable 'name brand' tool, machinery and clothing companies, then they need to produce to the required standards, or else they will find orders aren't being renewed..

As for cheap toys and household goods, cheap crap was being produced in Japan during the 1950s and 60s, then moved across through Asia into China -- and if China raises their overall standards, as we have seen Japan, Korea, Malaysia and Vietnam doing over the decades, there are always new factories in pooer parts of northern Africa, India, Bangladesh and the likes, 'ready to step into the breach..'

Then there's the relabelling and re-shipping of certain agricultural, forestry and poaching items from suspect and illicit suppliers, by certain shady and shonky merchants through Chinese and S.E.Asian ports -- but that's another story for another thread.

by Original Quill Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:29 pm

Wolf wrote:When it comes to the 'dumping' of sub-standard bulk steel supplies onto British and Euro' markets, that's where the relevant authorities should be cracking down, using existing "anti-dumping" laws, tariffs and fines..

No just through trade mechanisms, but allow me to point out that this is just what public protections, or regulations, are for. Conservatives are always arguing that these public protections interfere with profitability, and they should be removed. But, nicko, your complaint is precisely why they exist...and not just on cheap toys and plastics, but realms of safety and occupational health. That's why we have a consumer products safety council.

But we're off message on trade issues.

by Ben Reilly Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:50 pm

I think the topic was supposed to be that protectionism is dumb, Bernie Sanders supports it so he's dumb too, and Bernie Sanders is a liberal so all liberals are dumb, too.

by Original Quill Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:45 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:I think the topic was supposed to be that protectionism is dumb, Bernie Sanders supports it so he's dumb too, and Bernie Sanders is a liberal so all liberals are dumb, too.

Yep, OP exhausted that in the first post:

Maddog wrote:An idea so dumb, that Bernie Sanders agrees with it.

The part about liberals was a silent 'e' at the end.

Hence we were all bored and changed the subject.

by Maddog Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:47 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:I think the topic was supposed to be that protectionism is dumb, Bernie Sanders supports it so he's dumb too, and Bernie Sanders is a liberal so all liberals are dumb, too.

You thought wrong.

Next time just ask me. I'm not shy. Wink

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