Muslim doctor turned down by Paris hospital because of his beard

by Guest Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:59 am

A French court has recently upheld a Paris hospital’s right to reject a Muslim trainee doctor because he wore a beard. This, it was argued, infringed the French policy of secularism. Some items – the headscarf or skull cap for example – are always going to fall foul of this policy. However the beard, like the long skirts which have been barred from schools in some cases, is not always a sign of unacceptable religiosity. The precise context is taken into account – and I assume that the religious identity of the wearer is a major factor in determining each case. Libération reports:

“In these circumstances,” the court saw a breach of its obligations to respect secularism and the principle of neutrality of public service, even if the wearing of the beard “was accompanied by no act of proselytism” .It considered that the sanction, the termination of the doctor’s internship agreement, was “not disproportionate” , confirming the judgment rendered in first instance by the administrative court of Montreuil.

It seems particularly intrusive and unnecessary to pry into the doctor’s precise motives in this way – when the same beard on a Christian medic would have attracted no such attention. Here’s a comment taken from the Telegraph’s Facebook coverage of the story:

Do they also reject trainees with beards worn for nonreligious reasons?
If the answer to that is ‘no’, then they have not prohibited the act of growing a beard so much as they have prohibited what the person might have been thinking about when he committed the act of growing a beard.

In other words, you might say they rejected the trainee due to thoughtcrime.

Several have pointed out that beards might be seen as undesirable for reasons of hygiene – but this is an entirely separate issue, and one which played no role in the court’s decision.

http://hurryupharry.org/2018/01/01/Muslim-doctor-turned-down-by-paris-hospital-because-of-his-beard/

An additional link, to this story, is as follows:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/01/french-hospital-rejects-trainee-doctor-due-religious-beard/

Have too say, the ruling is very wrong. Its formed from a prejudice. Where there is a world shortage of medically trained personnel.

by 'Wolfie Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:01 pm

The French courts have been arseholes for centuries...

Only have to see how they keep on defending French scum and murdering cowards and nuclear tests in the Pacific..

Just a further extension of their nationalistic "fuck the world" arrogance.

by Maddog Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:11 pm

There goes my career as a French doctor. Wink

by HoratioTarr Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:51 pm

I think beards are unhygienic. I think they should be banned from hospitals and restaurant kitchens unless they are covered up with special gear. Horrible fucking things.

by Syl Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:03 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:I think beards are unhygienic. I think they should be banned from hospitals and restaurant kitchens unless they are covered up with special gear. Horrible fucking things.

I agree...all beards should be banned in hospitals, and not just banned because the wearer may look like a terrorist...according to Prince Philip anyway. Razz

by Vintage Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:37 pm

Not keen on beards unless they are short and well kept, don't like the straggling hanging down the chest thing. I've always wondered why, with all the problems with terrorists and organisations who generally have the straggly beards, it was suddenly fashionable to have that very thing.

by eddie Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:43 pm

Wrong wrong wrong. This is not acceptable. You can't start telling people how to wear their fucking facial hair!! No way.

As an aside, I love beards. I cannot stand that silky faced smoothness of a shaven face on a man. Ugh, makes me really repulsed, at east have some stubble otherwise your face feels like a woman!
Sorry, I really like manly males, I'm extremely feminine like that.

by Syl Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:48 pm

eddie wrote:Wrong wrong wrong. This is not acceptable. You can't start telling people how to wear their fucking facial hair!! No way.

As an aside, I love beards. I cannot stand that silky faced smoothness of a shaven face on a man. Ugh, makes me really repulsed, at east have some stubble otherwise your face feels like a woman!
Sorry, I really like manly males, I'm extremely feminine like that.

Well if I am being examined I don't want some blokes hairy beard dangling in my whatever....so if beards are allowed they should have a hairnet on them. snobby

by Maddog Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:20 pm

Syl wrote:
eddie wrote:Wrong wrong wrong. This is not acceptable. You can't start telling people how to wear their fucking facial hair!! No way.

As an aside, I love beards. I cannot stand that silky faced smoothness of a shaven face on a man. Ugh, makes me really repulsed, at east have some stubble otherwise your face feels like a woman!
Sorry, I really like manly males, I'm extremely feminine like that.
Well if I am being examined I don't want some blokes hairy beard dangling in my whatever....so if beards are allowed they should have a hairnet on them.

Come on Syl. Let me take a peek at what ails ya. Shocked

Muslim doctor turned down by Paris hospital because of his beard Beard10

by Guest Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:07 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:I think beards are unhygienic. I think they should be banned from hospitals and restaurant kitchens unless they are covered up with special gear. Horrible fucking things.

So what is the point of surgical masks?

I mean, if your stand point is on hygiene, best we shaved everyones heads of hair. You cannot pick and choose here.

Such a ruling is discrimination and its wrong

by Vintage Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:10 pm

Hair nets may be an idea I believe Sikh men use them - on their beards.

by Guest Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:13 pm

Vintage wrote:Hair nets may be an idea I believe Sikh men use them - on their beards.

Which means they can also wear surgical masks, of which they do already.

by Guest Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:48 pm

I don't like beards I think it makes men look old - having said that beards are all the fashion now - my youngest has had one for years .

It's wrong to refuse someone a job because of a beard there are nets they can wear so what's the problem .

by HoratioTarr Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:39 pm

Didge wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:I think beards are unhygienic. I think they should be banned from hospitals and restaurant kitchens unless they are covered up with special gear. Horrible fucking things.

So what is the point of surgical masks?

I mean, if your stand point is on hygiene, best we shaved everyones heads of hair. You cannot pick and choose here.

Such a ruling is discrimination and its wrong

In certain hospitals beards aren’t allowed because they prevent a proper seal when using respirators. As for shedding, I've sadly had a meal where beard hair got into the food at an Indian restaurant. You can keep a beard as trimmed and clean as you like but that won't stop it shedding.

by HoratioTarr Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:41 pm

Also, the surgical mask isn't just to protect the patient.

by Syl Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:06 pm

Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:
Well if I am being examined I don't want some blokes hairy beard dangling in my whatever....so if beards are allowed they should have a hairnet on them.

Come on Syl. Let me take a peek at what ails ya.

That man looks like he could have a blow torch or a drill in his concealed hand....his beard would be the least of my worries. pale

by Guest Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:13 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Didge wrote:

So what is the point of surgical masks?

I mean, if your stand point is on hygiene, best we shaved everyones heads of hair. You cannot pick and choose here.

Such a ruling is discrimination and its wrong

In certain hospitals beards aren’t allowed because they prevent a proper seal when using respirators. As for shedding, I've sadly had a meal where beard hair got into the food at an Indian restaurant. You can keep a beard as trimmed and clean as you like but that won't stop it shedding.

Come on. You are being over the top here and I bet its more down to personal preference.

As you are avoiding the main issue here

Nobody is asking you to shave off your hair on your head. As of which you would have to do, based on your argument of unhygenic.

As you certainly cannot keep long hair trimmed can you.

The reality is, that is was discrimination and why you are not applying the same standard on any body hair?

by eddie Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:29 pm

Syl wrote:
Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:
Well if I am being examined I don't want some blokes hairy beard dangling in my whatever....so if beards are allowed they should have a hairnet on them.

Come on Syl. Let me take a peek at what ails ya.

That man looks like he could have a blow torch or a drill in his concealed hand....his beard would be the least of my worries.

That "man" is Maddog. Rolling Eyes

by Maddog Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:45 pm

Syl wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Come on Syl. Let me take a peek at what ails ya.

That man looks like he could have a blow torch or a drill in his concealed hand....his beard would be the least of my worries.

I had my phone in one hand, and probably a beer in the other. I was at one of the local breweries before Critical Mass (a bike ride).

by HoratioTarr Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:48 pm

Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:

That man looks like he could have a blow torch or a drill in his concealed hand....his beard would be the least of my worries.

I had my phone in one hand, and probably a beer in the other. I was at one of the local breweries before Critical Mass (a bike ride).

It adds thirty years to you. I'll bet you're quite handsome under all that. bounce

by Maddog Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:49 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Maddog wrote:

I had my phone in one hand, and probably a beer in the other. I was at one of the local breweries before Critical Mass (a bike ride).

It adds thirty years to you. I'll bet you're quite handsome under all that.

Shit!!!!

I look 84?

by HoratioTarr Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:50 pm

Didge wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

In certain hospitals beards aren’t allowed because they prevent a proper seal when using respirators. As for shedding, I've sadly had a meal where beard hair got into the food at an Indian restaurant. You can keep a beard as trimmed and clean as you like but that won't stop it shedding.

Come on. You are being over the top here and I bet its more down to personal preference.

As you are avoiding the main issue here

Nobody is asking you to shave off your hair on your head. As of which you would have to do, based on your argument of unhygenic.

As you certainly cannot keep long hair trimmed can you.

The reality is, that is was discrimination and why you are not applying the same standard on any body hair?

You're right, it is down to personal preference. I'd rather not have a doctor with a beard nor a cook. There's only one thing worse than a man with a beard, and that's a man with a beard smoking a cigar. Looks like Lassie taking a shit.

by HoratioTarr Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:50 pm

Maddog wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

It adds thirty years to you. I'll bet you're quite handsome under all that.

Shit!!!!

I look 84?

I would have said late eighties. Come on, shave it off and give us all a surprise.

by Maddog Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:53 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Shit!!!!

I look 84?

I would have said late eighties. Come on, shave it off and give us all a surprise.

I'll ask my Albanian princess. She has to approve these things.

by Guest Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:55 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Didge wrote:

Come on. You are being over the top here and I bet its more down to personal preference.

As you are avoiding the main issue here

Nobody is asking you to shave off your hair on your head. As of which you would have to do, based on your argument of unhygenic.

As you certainly cannot keep long hair trimmed can you.

The reality is, that is was discrimination and why you are not applying the same standard on any body hair?

You're right, it is down to personal preference. I'd rather not have a doctor with a beard nor a cook. There's only one thing worse than a man with a beard, and that's a man with a beard smoking a cigar. Looks like Lassie taking a shit.

I would rather have a doctor, that cared and actually could help save many lives.
We all have pet peeves, but that should never be the diciding factor. Or on employing medically trained people.

You have to underatand, humans, are a species of Ape. Give the timeframe, 4,000 years ago. A beard, would have seemed like a sexual magnate for women.

Its why we should look to compremise over such pet peeves

by HoratioTarr Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:55 pm

Maddog wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

I would have said late eighties. Come on, shave it off and give us all a surprise.

I'll ask my Albanian princess. She has to approve these things.

It'll grow back. I bet you'll look years younger and wow us all on here. sleaze

by Maddog Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:58 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Maddog wrote:

I'll ask my Albanian princess. She has to approve these things.

It'll grow back. I bet you'll look years younger and wow us all on here.

She has to look at me all the time, y'all, not so much. She has complete control over my grooming decisions.

Not that she cares one way or another if I'm being honest. Wink

by HoratioTarr Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:59 pm

Didge wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

You're right, it is down to personal preference. I'd rather not have a doctor with a beard nor a cook. There's only one thing worse than a man with a beard, and that's a man with a beard smoking a cigar. Looks like Lassie taking a shit.

I would rather have a doctor, that cared and actually could help save many lives.
We all have pet peeves, but that should never be the diciding factor. Or on employing medically trained people.

You have to underatand, humans, are a species of Ape. Give the timeframe, 4,000 years ago. A beard, would have seemed like a sexual magnate for women.

Its why we should look to compremise over such pet peeves

Nah, not me, matey. I'm like one of those blokes who can't abide hairy pits and a busby-esque minge on a woman. Ever been kissed by a man with a beard? And it tickles like fuck down below. But I digress....

I expect all doctors to be good ones, bearded or not.

by Guest Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:02 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Didge wrote:

I would rather have a doctor, that cared and actually could help save many lives.
We all have pet peeves, but that should never be the diciding factor. Or on employing medically trained people.

You have to underatand, humans, are a species of Ape. Give the timeframe, 4,000 years ago. A beard, would have seemed like a sexual magnate for women.

Its why we should look to compremise over such pet peeves

Nah, not me, matey. I'm like one of those blokes who can't abide hairy pits and a busby-esque minge on a woman. Ever been kissed by a man with a beard? And it tickles like fuck down below. But I digress....

I expect all doctors to be good ones, bearded or not.

You really do have some pet peeves.
The reality is, beards are not going to stop them being good ones.

by Syl Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:07 am

eddie wrote:
Syl wrote:

That man looks like he could have a blow torch or a drill in his concealed hand....his beard would be the least of my worries.

That "man" is Maddog.

Oh right...well how was I supposed to know that? lol!

by HoratioTarr Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:07 am

Didge wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

You're right, it is down to personal preference. I'd rather not have a doctor with a beard nor a cook. There's only one thing worse than a man with a beard, and that's a man with a beard smoking a cigar. Looks like Lassie taking a shit.

I would rather have a doctor, that cared and actually could help save many lives.
We all have pet peeves, but that should never be the diciding factor. Or on employing medically trained people.

You have to underatand, humans, are a species of Ape. Give the timeframe, 4,000 years ago. A beard, would have seemed like a sexual magnate for women.

Its why we should look to compremise over such pet peeves

On a more serious note, the general theory about arm and pubic hair is to trap sweat and scent. Which back in the neanderthal age might have been attractive. These days we prefer not to smell of sweaty arms and arse, hence the huge perfume industry and our modern day washing facilities. Pheromones still get past the soap and water and cologne. You don't need a sweaty pit or disco fanny to do the job these days.

by HoratioTarr Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:08 am

Didge wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

Nah, not me, matey. I'm like one of those blokes who can't abide hairy pits and a busby-esque minge on a woman. Ever been kissed by a man with a beard? And it tickles like fuck down below. But I digress....

I expect all doctors to be good ones, bearded or not.

You really do have some pet peeves.
The reality is, beards are not going to stop them being good ones.

I never said it would.

by HoratioTarr Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:11 am

Shaving one’s pubic region is nothing new in history, from the Ancient Egyptians to modern day times the trend has come and gone and then come again. For instance, in the 15th century it was commonplace for women particularly to shave pubic hair for hygienic reasons, particularly as a defence against lice.

While the practice of shaving one’s private bits has been around for ages, the 19th century British took it to another level. It was common at this time to cut off some of your pubic hair and give it to a lover as a gift. Men would even affix this hair to their hats. When not displaying it in such ways, keeping a collection of it from one’s various lovers was a thing. For instance, King George IV kept his collection of women’s pubes from his various mistresses in a snuff box. St. Andrews University in Scotland currently possess this snuffbox filled with pubic hair.

Well, I never!

by Guest Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:13 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Didge wrote:

I would rather have a doctor, that cared and actually could help save many lives.
We all have pet peeves, but that should never be the diciding factor. Or on employing medically trained people.

You have to underatand, humans, are a species of Ape. Give the timeframe, 4,000 years ago. A beard, would have seemed like a sexual magnate for women.

Its why we should look to compremise over such pet peeves

On a more serious note, the general theory about arm and pubic hair is to trap sweat and scent. Which back in the neanderthal age might have been attractive. These days we prefer not to smell of sweaty arms and arse, hence the huge perfume industry and our modern day washing facilities. Pheromones still get past the soap and water and cologne. You don't need a sweaty pit or disco fanny to do the job these days.

I very much disagree here also.
Our bodies react differently to fragrances and they enhance a smell, that both men and women are attracted to. This is simpling exploiting an ancient market. Now from what I understand, its still masculinity, where they perspire. That kicks the hormones into function.

I could be wrong, but the reality is, that, we all seem to have unique and individual smell.

by HoratioTarr Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:17 am

Didge wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

On a more serious note, the general theory about arm and pubic hair is to trap sweat and scent. Which back in the neanderthal age might have been attractive. These days we prefer not to smell of sweaty arms and arse, hence the huge perfume industry and our modern day washing facilities. Pheromones still get past the soap and water and cologne. You don't need a sweaty pit or disco fanny to do the job these days.

I very much disagree here also.
Our bodies react differently to fragrances and they enhance a smell, that both men and women are attracted to. This is simpling exploiting an ancient market. Now from what I understand, its still masculinity, where they perspire. That kicks the hormones into function.

I could be wrong, but the reality is, that, we all seem to have unique and individual smell.

Yes, the pheromones are unique to us all. There was an experiment once where a group of women were asked to sniff a pile of shirts that had been worn all day by their men. Every single one of them picked out their husband's shirt correctly.

by Syl Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:24 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Didge wrote:

I very much disagree here also.
Our bodies react differently to fragrances and they enhance a smell, that both men and women are attracted to. This is simpling exploiting an ancient market. Now from what I understand, its still masculinity, where they perspire. That kicks the hormones into function.

I could be wrong, but the reality is, that, we all seem to have unique and individual smell.

Yes, the pheromones are unique to us all. There was an experiment once where a group of women were asked to sniff a pile of shirts that had been worn all day by their men. Every single one of them picked out their husband's shirt correctly.

Sense of smell is probably the strongest sense we have.
I think its one of the things that draw us to someone...or turns us off...and the smell of someone can stay with us years after they have gone.

by Cass Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:19 am

I dislike beards but Mr. C and both juniors have one. Go figure.

I do have a fondness for men with long hair though...

Doesnt bother me at all if a doctor/cook or whoever has a beard or not. Feel the same about hair color/tattoos/dress/ religious symbols/piercings etc...as long as they do their job or save my life then they can be them.

by Guest Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:02 am

It's unhygienic

So good call

by HoratioTarr Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:56 am

Cass wrote:I dislike beards but Me. C and both juniors have one. Go figure.

I do have a fondness for men with long hair though...

Doesnt bother me at all if a doctor/cook or whoever has a beard or not. Feel the same about hair color/tattoos/dress/ religious symbols/piercings etc...as long as they do their job or save my life then they can be them.

You have a beard? Fascinating.

by Syl Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:31 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Cass wrote:I dislike beards but Me. C and both juniors have one. Go figure.

I do have a fondness for men with long hair though...

Doesnt bother me at all if a doctor/cook or whoever has a beard or not. Feel the same about hair color/tattoos/dress/ religious symbols/piercings etc...as long as they do their job or save my life then they can be them.

You have a beard? Fascinating.

I wondered that too.. Razz

but having seen the lovely Cass's photos, I think it may be a typo.

by HoratioTarr Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:24 pm

Syl wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

You have a beard? Fascinating.

I wondered that too.. but having seen the lovely Cass's photos, I think it may be a typo.

I should hope so Suspect

by JulesV Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:52 pm

Was the beard causing hygiene issues?

Hygiene takes priority in all clinical settings.

Hygiene comes first, always.

by Cass Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:36 pm

Syl wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

You have a beard? Fascinating.

I wondered that too.. but having seen the lovely Cass's photos, I think it may be a typo.

Lol lol. You ladies just made my day! Thanks for the laughs.

It won’t let me give you green thingys so here ya go alien

by Syl Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:55 pm

Cass wrote:
Syl wrote:

I wondered that too.. but having seen the lovely Cass's photos, I think it may be a typo.

Lol lol. You ladies just made my day! Thanks for the laughs.

It won’t let give you green thingys so here ya go

Lol...Two for the price of one..thank you Cass' Muslim doctor turned down by Paris hospital because of his beard 2385359624

by Miffs2 Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:01 pm

[quote="HoratioTarr"]

Didge wrote:

I would rather have a doctor, that cared and actually could help save many lives.
We all have pet peeves, but that should never be the diciding factor. Or on employing medically trained people.

You have to underatand, humans, are a species of Ape. Give the timeframe, 4,000 years ago. A beard, would have seemed like a sexual magnate for women.

Its why we should look to compremise over such pet peeves[/quote

On a more serious note, the general theory about arm and pubic hair is to trap sweat and scent. Which back in the neanderthal age might have been attractive. These days we prefer not to smell of sweaty arms and arse, hence the huge perfume industry and our modern day washing facilities. Pheromones still get past the soap and water and cologne. You don't need a sweaty pit or disco fanny to do the job these days.

Disco fanny! That's an image that wil take some getting over

by Guest Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:03 pm

Didge wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

On a more serious note, the general theory about arm and pubic hair is to trap sweat and scent. Which back in the neanderthal age might have been attractive. These days we prefer not to smell of sweaty arms and arse, hence the huge perfume industry and our modern day washing facilities. Pheromones still get past the soap and water and cologne. You don't need a sweaty pit or disco fanny to do the job these days.

I very much disagree here also.
Our bodies react differently to fragrances and they enhance a smell, that both men and women are attracted to. This is simpling exploiting an ancient market. Now from what I understand, its still masculinity, where they perspire. That kicks the hormones into function.

I could be wrong, but the reality is, that, we all seem to have unique and individual smell.

by Guest Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:11 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Didge wrote:

I very much disagree here also.
Our bodies react differently to fragrances and they enhance a smell, that both men and women are attracted to. This is simpling exploiting an ancient market. Now from what I understand, its still masculinity, where they perspire. That kicks the hormones into function.

I could be wrong, but the reality is, that, we all seem to have unique and individual smell.

Yes, the pheromones are unique to us all. There was an experiment once where a group of women were asked to sniff a pile of shirts that had been worn all day by their men. Every single one of them picked out their husband's shirt correctly.

Which shows how animalistic humans still very much are.
You find with many animal species they leave their scent to mark their territory. Humans do this the same within relationships. When they wear the scent that most entices their partners.
They are basically marking their territory.

How else do you think all these women picked out their husbands shirts?
It would mean that it is ingrained this tribalistic ability in all humans.
Its certainly not an ability to control who we are, but it certainly proves humans know how to play off each others individual smells, that bind them.

by nicko Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:55 pm

In Roman times Women used to buy the sweat scraped off the winning Gladiators !

by Miffs2 Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:58 pm

nicko wrote:In Roman times Women used to buy the sweat scraped off the winning Gladiators !

Muslim doctor turned down by Paris hospital because of his beard 3633442240

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