Trump lied again.

eddie wrote:Why did Obama send home Mexicans?

smelly-bandit wrote:

eddie wrote:Why did Obama send home Mexicans?

Is this like a joke??

smelly-bandit wrote:Trumps the biggest liar going

He promised he would lock crooked Hillary up in the big house

The bitch geranium is still walking free.

Time for trump to make good on his word

Lurker wrote:If Trump's ugly mouth is moving, he's lying.....

Fred M. wrote:If any politician's mouth is moving, he or she is lying...

Original Quill wrote:

Fred M. wrote:If any politician's mouth is moving, he or she is lying...

Some more than others, Fred.  Politics is about power and resources, divided among interests.  Conservatives represent special interests, while progressives seek to serve all interests.

Now this poses a problem for conservatives because the currency of politics is votes, not money.  Because the number of millionaires are limited, conservatives must seek votes elsewhere.  The dilemma is, how to get votes from people whose interests you clearly do not serve.

The answer: you lie.  Conservatives, by their very nature, have to incorporate deception into their stratagems.

Now, Trump has adopted the Madison Avenue approach to lying.  Truth, for him, is whatever needs to be said to make a sale.  With truth so flexible, it's no surprise that he collects lies at the rate of 5 per day.

But despite his extraordinary magnitude of lying, Trump is still primarily motivated by his position toward the vote.  He must hide the fact that he's working against the general interest.

Original Quill wrote:

Fred M. wrote:If any politician's mouth is moving, he or she is lying...

Some more than others, Fred.  Politics is about power and resources, divided among interests.  Conservatives represent special interests, while progressives seek to serve all interests.

Now this poses a problem for conservatives because the currency of politics is votes, not money.  Because the number of millionaires are limited, conservatives must seek votes elsewhere.  The dilemma is, how to get votes from people whose interests you clearly do not serve.

The answer: you lie.  Conservatives, by their very nature, have to incorporate deception into their stratagems.

Now, Trump has adopted the Madison Avenue approach to lying.  Truth, for him, is whatever needs to be said to make a sale.  With truth so flexible, it's no surprise that he collects lies at the rate of 5 per day.

But despite his extraordinary magnitude of lying, Trump is still primarily motivated by his position toward the vote.  He must hide the fact that he's working against the general interest.

Original Quill wrote:

Fred M. wrote:If any politician's mouth is moving, he or she is lying...

Some more than others, Fred.  Politics is about power and resources, divided among interests.  Conservatives represent special interests, while progressives seek to serve all interests.

Now this poses a problem for conservatives because the currency of politics is votes, not money.  Because the number of millionaires are limited, conservatives must seek votes elsewhere.  The dilemma is, how to get votes from people whose interests you clearly do not serve.

The answer: you lie.  Conservatives, by their very nature, have to incorporate deception into their stratagems.

Now, Trump has adopted the Madison Avenue approach to lying.  Truth, for him, is whatever needs to be said to make a sale.  With truth so flexible, it's no surprise that he collects lies at the rate of 5 per day.

But despite his extraordinary magnitude of lying, Trump is still primarily motivated by his position toward the vote.  He must hide the fact that he's working against the general interest.

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Some more than others, Fred.  Politics is about power and resources, divided among interests.  Conservatives represent special interests, while progressives seek to serve all interests.

Now this poses a problem for conservatives because the currency of politics is votes, not money.  Because the number of millionaires are limited, conservatives must seek votes elsewhere.  The dilemma is, how to get votes from people whose interests you clearly do not serve.

The answer: you lie.  Conservatives, by their very nature, have to incorporate deception into their stratagems.

Now, Trump has adopted the Madison Avenue approach to lying.  Truth, for him, is whatever needs to be said to make a sale.  With truth so flexible, it's no surprise that he collects lies at the rate of 5 per day.

But despite his extraordinary magnitude of lying, Trump is still primarily motivated by his position toward the vote.  He must hide the fact that he's working against the general interest.

Clearly, Quill, I cannot speak about US politics because I have neither the experience nor the knowledge to do so. That is your remit.

But in my own real experience of UK politics, I know that the Conservative John Major - for all his faults and failings - was one of the most honest of politicians that I personally interviewed and that the Labour, and supposedly Leftist and Socialist, Blair was one of the most dishonest.

Personality had little to do with it: Major struck me as being a cold fish; the "grey man" that the UK media so often portrayed. Blair was likeable,"with it" and, on the face of it, the sort of politician that was needed by the country at the time.

But, in fact, his mendacity led directly to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people.

As a journalist I believe that I did pretty well in maintaining an apolitical stance throughout my career. But once freed of the shackles of professionalism I have come to realise that the Left, and in particular that Marxist bastard Corbyn and his thuggish Momentum paymasters, pose the greatest threat to my country that it has known since 1945.

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Some more than others, Fred.  Politics is about power and resources, divided among interests.  Conservatives represent special interests, while progressives seek to serve all interests.

Now this poses a problem for conservatives because the currency of politics is votes, not money.  Because the number of millionaires are limited, conservatives must seek votes elsewhere.  The dilemma is, how to get votes from people whose interests you clearly do not serve.

The answer: you lie.  Conservatives, by their very nature, have to incorporate deception into their stratagems.

Now, Trump has adopted the Madison Avenue approach to lying.  Truth, for him, is whatever needs to be said to make a sale.  With truth so flexible, it's no surprise that he collects lies at the rate of 5 per day.

But despite his extraordinary magnitude of lying, Trump is still primarily motivated by his position toward the vote.  He must hide the fact that he's working against the general interest.

Clearly, Quill, I cannot speak about US politics because I have neither the experience nor the knowledge to do so. That is your remit.

But in my own real experience of UK politics, I know that the Conservative John Major - for all his faults and failings - was one of the most honest of politicians that I personally interviewed and that the Labour, and supposedly Leftist and Socialist, Blair was one of the most dishonest.

Personality had little to do with it: Major struck me as being a cold fish; the "grey man" that the UK media so often portrayed. Blair was likeable,"with it" and, on the face of it, the sort of politician that was needed by the country at the time.

But, in fact, his mendacity led directly to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people.

As a journalist I believe that I did pretty well in maintaining an apolitical stance throughout my career. But once freed of the shackles of professionalism I have come to realise that the Left, and in particular that Marxist bastard Corbyn and his thuggish Momentum paymasters, pose the greatest threat to my country that it has known since 1945.

Miffs2 wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Clearly, Quill, I cannot speak about US politics because I have neither the experience nor the knowledge to do so. That is your remit.

But in my own real experience of UK politics, I know that the Conservative John Major - for all his faults and failings - was one of the most honest of politicians that I personally interviewed and that the Labour, and supposedly Leftist and Socialist, Blair was one of the most dishonest.

Personality had little to do with it: Major struck me as being a cold fish; the "grey man" that the UK media so often portrayed. Blair was likeable,"with it" and, on the face of it, the sort of politician that was needed by the country at the time.

But, in fact, his mendacity led directly to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people.

As a journalist I believe that I did pretty well in maintaining an apolitical stance throughout my career. But once freed of the shackles of professionalism I have come to realise that the Left, and in particular that Marxist bastard Corbyn and his thuggish Momentum paymasters, pose the greatest threat to my country that it has known since 1945.

Just read your comment and want to ask, re your last paragraph, strong words so can I ask why you think Momentum and Corbyn pose such a threat?

Cass wrote:Maybe it should be news when he HASN’T lied.

I won’t hold my breath though...

Miffs2 wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Clearly, Quill, I cannot speak about US politics because I have neither the experience nor the knowledge to do so. That is your remit.

But in my own real experience of UK politics, I know that the Conservative John Major - for all his faults and failings - was one of the most honest of politicians that I personally interviewed and that the Labour, and supposedly Leftist and Socialist, Blair was one of the most dishonest.

Personality had little to do with it: Major struck me as being a cold fish; the "grey man" that the UK media so often portrayed. Blair was likeable,"with it" and, on the face of it, the sort of politician that was needed by the country at the time.

But, in fact, his mendacity led directly to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people.

As a journalist I believe that I did pretty well in maintaining an apolitical stance throughout my career. But once freed of the shackles of professionalism I have come to realise that the Left, and in particular that Marxist bastard Corbyn and his thuggish Momentum paymasters, pose the greatest threat to my country that it has known since 1945.

Just read your comment and want to ask, re your last paragraph, strong words so can I ask why you think Momentum and Corbyn pose such a threat?

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Miffs2 wrote:

Just read your comment and want to ask, re your last paragraph, strong words so can I ask why you think Momentum and Corbyn pose such a threat?

Three words: Total economic collapse.

The formation of a government led by Corbyn, and particularly with John McDonnell as Chancellor, would cause an immediate run on the pound and the three highly influential credit ratings agencies - S&P, Fitch and Moody's - would reduce their UK ratings by far, far more than the relatively minor cuts that we have seen since 2016.

That, in turn, would make government borrowing on the international money markets extremely difficult, if not damn near impossible, because the major unions, who are the paymasters of the Labour party, would demand their Danegeld in the form of massively unaffordable public spending; huge increases in public sector jobs;  the legal right to unfettered collective bargaining in the workplace backed up by wildcat strikes and intimidatory mass picketing and the punitive taxation of the sort of entrepreneurial wealth and job creators this country cannot afford to lose.

In other words a perfect economic storm leading to an inevitable default.

Just my opinion, of course, but it's how I predict things would pan out either, whether Corbyn got the keys to No. 10 as a result of a "no confidence" issue defeat of the present administration (possible) or an outright general election victory (unlikely).

smelly-bandit wrote:

Miffs2 wrote:

Just read your comment and want to ask, re your last paragraph, strong words so can I ask why you think Momentum and Corbyn pose such a threat?

Pretty much what Fred said but I'd also add that corbyn plans to wage war on the financial services as part of his purge of "the rich"

The UK doesn't produce goods as such but it does provide a service in the form of finances with a lot of big banks based in London.

Those services replace our lost manufacturing capabilities and provided the bulk of the UK economic income.

If Corbyn goes to war with them and taxes them to the hilt, the banks will simply up sticks and move abroad to friendlier  countries

They will also take with them their workforce.

With Corbyn power borrowing would be impossible, which means he has to find the income to pay for blood money from other sources.

That means taxing the shit out of every man and his dog, but his biggest tax payers the banks and the high earners would have buggered off, so he would have to raise taxes on ordinary people who fall well short of his criteria for being rich.

Corbyn hates business and industry, he despises capitalism so the money he raises from taxing everyone won't be going on investment in business or rebuilding our manufacturing base to generate growth and get the economy going.

It will be getting spent on shit like, nationalising the railway, and making sure the benefits system is fully stocked up.

Crazy socialist pipe dreams that have ruined every single country they have been implemented in.

Basically he will spend the taxes on luxuries whilst the bills get bigger and bigger.

Corbyn would have to resort to quantitive easing which mean printing money,which would only serve to devalue the pound even more.

With our financial services in ruin and no way of generating real economic growth, the pound worthless, the cost of our imports would be eye watering and simple things like bread and milk will cost a month's wages

our ability to repay our debts would slowly but surely degrade,and eventually the interest alone would simply become unpayable.

When that happens we enter a Greece scenario where we simply can't meet our financial obligations, and when that happens we be fucked.

Every seen the TV show "can't pay we'll take it away" that's pretty much what happens, the banks the UK borrows money from will send in its heavies and start selling everything the UK owes to the highest bidder.

So Corbyn newly nationalisiled  railway will be sold off straight away to whatever foreign investor will buy it.

The NHS?? Carved up and sold to foreign  health insurance companies.

Whatever is left of Royal mail?? Gone

Basically every single service or property the UK has left that has "national" somewhere in its description will be stripped down and flogged off.

And the money won't go into the UK economy for investment, it will be sold to foreign investors to pay off our debts.

And your taxes will STILL be sky high and so will the debt.

If you think austerity was bad under the tories, hold onto your hat you wait till you see austerity as a result of corbyn

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:I hate the Tories but also hate Labour and Corbyn - Libdems are pointless and UKIP need a good leader .
Therefore who do we vote for when all the parties are basically useless ?

Miffs2 wrote:

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:I hate the Tories but also hate Labour and Corbyn - Libdems are pointless and UKIP need a good leader .
Therefore who do we vote for when all the parties are basically useless ?

They are all as bad as each other I think. I have been involved in some political stuff this year. I got invited to a launch in Portcullis House, that was brilliant and speakers including Claire Waxman were very supportive of the work being done for victims of crime and victims of terrorism.
Conversely in my Labour stronghold city, we can't even get an audience with our PCC and if you saw the value of the tender you would faint. That said tenders are out now, so I'm on a gagging order and can't say more. One thing though, of all the meetings with the great and the good, only one had me walking away thinking you utter twat and that was Andy Burnham.

eddie wrote:

Miffs2 wrote:

They are all as bad as each other I think. I have been involved in some political stuff this year. I got invited to a launch in Portcullis House, that was brilliant and speakers including Claire Waxman were very supportive of the work being done for victims of crime and victims of terrorism.
Conversely in my Labour stronghold city, we can't even get an audience with our PCC and if you saw the value of the tender you would faint. That said tenders are out now, so I'm on a gagging order and can't say more. One thing though, of all the meetings with the great and the good, only one had me walking away thinking you utter twat and that was Andy Burnham.

My local MP is a Tory. She is absolutely brilliant. Every single time I've contacted her and asked for something, she's done it. She's prompt, she communicates and she's also spoke to me in person twice.  I cannot fault her.

Miffs2 wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:

Pretty much what Fred said but I'd also add that corbyn plans to wage war on the financial services as part of his purge of "the rich"

The UK doesn't produce goods as such but it does provide a service in the form of finances with a lot of big banks based in London.

Those services replace our lost manufacturing capabilities and provided the bulk of the UK economic income.

If Corbyn goes to war with them and taxes them to the hilt, the banks will simply up sticks and move abroad to friendlier  countries

They will also take with them their workforce.

With Corbyn power borrowing would be impossible, which means he has to find the income to pay for blood money from other sources.

That means taxing the shit out of every man and his dog, but his biggest tax payers the banks and the high earners would have buggered off, so he would have to raise taxes on ordinary people who fall well short of his criteria for being rich.

Corbyn hates business and industry, he despises capitalism so the money he raises from taxing everyone won't be going on investment in business or rebuilding our manufacturing base to generate growth and get the economy going.

It will be getting spent on shit like, nationalising the railway, and making sure the benefits system is fully stocked up.

Crazy socialist pipe dreams that have ruined every single country they have been implemented in.

Basically he will spend the taxes on luxuries whilst the bills get bigger and bigger.

Corbyn would have to resort to quantitive easing which mean printing money,which would only serve to devalue the pound even more.

With our financial services in ruin and no way of generating real economic growth, the pound worthless, the cost of our imports would be eye watering and simple things like bread and milk will cost a month's wages

our ability to repay our debts would slowly but surely degrade,and eventually the interest alone would simply become unpayable.

When that happens we enter a Greece scenario where we simply can't meet our financial obligations, and when that happens we be fucked.

Every seen the TV show "can't pay we'll take it away" that's pretty much what happens, the banks the UK borrows money from will send in its heavies and start selling everything the UK owes to the highest bidder.

So Corbyn newly nationalisiled  railway will be sold off straight away to whatever foreign investor will buy it.

The NHS?? Carved up and sold to foreign  health insurance companies.

Whatever is left of Royal mail?? Gone

Basically every single service or property the UK has left that has "national" somewhere in its description will be stripped down and flogged off.

And the money won't go into the UK economy for investment, it will be sold to foreign investors to pay off our debts.

And your taxes will STILL be sky high and so will the debt.

If you think austerity was bad under the tories, hold onto your hat you wait till you see austerity as a result of corbyn

Whilst I accept the truth in a lot of what you say, don't forget it was Thatcher that killed of manufacturing and made us import dependent.
Didn't Cameron do quantatatieasing?

My point is we have people living in poverty, all this hardship for some, all these years of Tory policy and still things are getting worse? We are stil borrowing more, we still spend far too much on foreign aid our government and councils waste billions. Why is it not all getting better if the Tories are right and why isn't austerity working?

Miffs2 wrote:

eddie wrote:

Miffs2 wrote:

They are all as bad as each other I think. I have been involved in some political stuff this year. I got invited to a launch in Portcullis House, that was brilliant and speakers including Claire Waxman were very supportive of the work being done for victims of crime and victims of terrorism.
Conversely in my Labour stronghold city, we can't even get an audience with our PCC and if you saw the value of the tender you would faint. That said tenders are out now, so I'm on a gagging order and can't say more. One thing though, of all the meetings with the great and the good, only one had me walking away thinking you utter twat and that was Andy Burnham.

My local MP is a Tory. She is absolutely brilliant. Every single time I've contacted her and asked for something, she's done it. She's prompt, she communicates and she's also spoke to me in person twice.  I cannot fault her.

That's good. Mine is Labour and I am a bit of a thorn in her side, she hates me

eddie wrote:

Miffs2 wrote:

That's good. Mine is Labour and I am a bit of a thorn in her side, she hates me

Hahahaha do you nag her?

Miffs2 wrote:

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:I hate the Tories but also hate Labour and Corbyn - Libdems are pointless and UKIP need a good leader .
Therefore who do we vote for when all the parties are basically useless ?

They are all as bad as each other I think. I have been involved in some political stuff this year. I got invited to a launch in Portcullis House, that was brilliant and speakers including Claire Waxman were very supportive of the work being done for victims of crime and victims of terrorism.
Conversely in my Labour stronghold city, we can't even get an audience with our PCC and if you saw the value of the tender you would faint. That said tenders are out now, so I'm on a gagging order and can't say more. One thing though, of all the meetings with the great and the good, only one had me walking away thinking you utter twat and that was Andy Burnham.

smelly-bandit wrote:

Miffs2 wrote:

Whilst I accept the truth in a lot of what you say, don't forget it was Thatcher that killed of manufacturing and made us import dependent.
Didn't Cameron do quantatatieasing?

My point is we have people living in poverty, all this hardship for some, all these years of Tory policy and still things are getting worse? We are stil borrowing more, we still spend far too much on foreign aid our government and councils waste billions. Why is it not all getting better if the Tories are right and why isn't austerity working?

the past doesn't matter

this isn't about placing blame , this is about the FUTURE in the real current world if corybn wins power, it doesn't matter what thatcher did it matters what corbyn will do

i think what you are confusing is debt and deficit

debt will never disappear, you can forget that right now, all countries have huge debt.

the deficit is the difference between what the country earns and what it spends, same as you or  me, slightly bigger figures involved but essentially the basic economics remains the same

so when you are spending more than you are earning you are running a deficit, same in your life or mine

but our lives dont stop and neither does a country so in order to continue to function we get credit cards and wonga loans and overdraft,and accrue massive debt, same principle for a country.

our national debt is secured against our national treasure in the same way a big loan would be secured against your house or car.

so the nation has to get the money from somewhere.

thats where austerity comes in, its designed to reduce the gap between what we spend and what we earn, once we get that under control and run a surplus - we can start to reduce the national debt AND invest

and that's why all we ever see are cuts cuts and more cuts.

you are correct, the government still wastes billions, foreign aid, the NHS, councils , social care, all the cuts are coming in at the wrong angle and any savings we do make are squandered by idiot politicians on shit like the brexit divorce bill and the HS2 vanity project and a whole host of other irrelevant shit that no one needs.

labour are not entirely wrong and the Tories not entirely right, austerity is necessary but it cuts against necessities like the police and the armed forces, while leaving luxuries like foreign aid untouched which is prolonging the austerity measures.

we could probably save hundreds of billions if the government were even halfway competent at their jobs and instead of cutting funding, they streamlined all our services and councils and everything else, but they arent and they wont

nothing will change under labour, people in poverty will still be in poverty, there will still be a housing crisis, corbyn wants to raise foreign aid and councils will still waste billions.

under the tories you tighten your belt go  without and eventually you live within your means like a responsible adult.

under corbyn its a free for all and you will live like a popstar but it will all be wonga loans with no way to pay it back.

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Lurker wrote:If Trump's ugly mouth is moving, he's lying.....

If any politician's mouth is moving, he or she is lying...

During my years as a newspaper and radio journalist I interviewed politicians ranging from parish councillors to prime ministers, and I always kept one question running silently in the back of my mind..."why is this bastard lying to me?"

Of course in your country, among the most famous - or perhaps one should say infamous - lies was "...I never had sexual relations with that woman."  

Clinton, wasn't it? Democrat, wasn't he?

Jules wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

If any politician's mouth is moving, he or she is lying...

During my years as a newspaper and radio journalist I interviewed politicians ranging from parish councillors to prime ministers, and I always kept one question running silently in the back of my mind..."why is this bastard lying to me?"

Of course in your country, among the most famous - or perhaps one should say infamous - lies was "...I never had sexual relations with that woman."  

Clinton, wasn't it? Democrat, wasn't he?

Well it's certainly the lie people made the biggest public song and dance about, but ironically, in the scheme of things it's surely the LEAST important. 

Their sexual relations did not cause voters to lose their jobs, or lives. Some politician's lies and deceptions and false promises cause thousands of lives to be lost.

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Smelly's loopy version of voodoo economics is why Britain is stuffed...

Britain has very little natural resources left, in proportion to its population and current spending levels--  so I don't know where Smelly' thinks Britain is going to get the funds to repay his proposed increased borrowings --  Japan and Germany still having significant manufacturing sectors, won't find themselves quite as bad off, financially;   Smelly's beloved Torie, though, pretty well stuffed much of Britain's manufacturing base during the 1980s..


Britain no longer has its colonies to rip off any more, to cover its spending..

As for debt levels --  expressed as a % of GNP, Britains national debt is more than double that of Australia, or Canada, or even Sarf Arfrika and Cuba;  while even NZ has more natural wealth than poor little Britain.

As for natural resources --   Canada, Brazil, the USA, Russia, Australia, even Argentina, still have more natural resources still in the ground, when compared to anyone over there in Europe..   Just a pity the relevant governments have sold so much of it off so cheaply over the past century...  


"Entrepreneurs" and the financiers/corporatists are the one creating jobs in Smelly's fantasyland --  but in reality, they are the ones who have destroyed, "off-shored" and sold out so many workers over the past 30+ years..

Smelly and Fred are only guessing at what a Corbyn-led Labour gov't might do, when the current financier-controlled Tory robber- barons eventually implode;  whereas the downtrodden lower 70% of Britain's population already knows what to expect from continuing Tory brilliance.

Then there's the sad fact that taxes will have to go back up eventually, irregardless of who wins the next election...

SEXY MAMA wrote:He does have a point though!!!!!

Angry Andy wrote:Fred, you are probably  an exception to the rule, but I find journalists, especially those in the employ of Murdoch and Dacre to be the worst liars, either spouting their own warped and biased view of the  world, or simply echoing what their editor tells them to say. I  include hacks from the Mirror Group.
Kelvin McKenzie was one of the worst, a liar, cheat and fraud who paid a heavy price. Suprised he isnt standing as an MP for the party he adores.
Perhaps you can answer  why they have an agenda.
Why CANT they just write the truth naturally. Surely to God they do not beieve the tripe, bile and hatred they write about daily just to sell copy?

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Jules wrote:

Well it's certainly the lie people made the biggest public song and dance about, but ironically, in the scheme of things it's surely the LEAST important. 

Their sexual relations did not cause voters to lose their jobs, or lives. Some politician's lies and deceptions and false promises cause thousands of lives to be lost.

I wasn't being judgemental; I was simply expressing a view that mendacity is not the sole preserve of Trump and the Republican party, as Lurker appears to imply.

I liked Clinton as a person, but I cheerfully admit to knowing so little about US politics that I never thought to form an opinion, one way or another, about his political philosophy.

Trump, as I have said here before, scares the bejasus out of me, not because of his domestic policies - I leave comment on those to people who know more about them, i.e. the US electors who voted for him and his detractors who didn't - but because of his impact on the rest of the world, including my little bit of it.

Original Quill wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

I wasn't being judgemental; I was simply expressing a view that mendacity is not the sole preserve of Trump and the Republican party, as Lurker appears to imply.

I liked Clinton as a person, but I cheerfully admit to knowing so little about US politics that I never thought to form an opinion, one way or another, about his political philosophy.

Trump, as I have said here before, scares the bejasus out of me, not because of his domestic policies - I leave comment on those to people who know more about them, i.e. the US electors who voted for him and his detractors who didn't - but because of his impact on the rest of the world, including my little bit of it.

When I first responded to you, Fred, I had intended to focus in on politics and political motivation.  I didn’t say that people like Clinton don’t lie, but merely stated that certain people embrace mendacity more than others…that it is built into their political circumstance.

With Clinton, you are going outside of the political realm.  Bill Clinton simply couldn’t keep his pants zipped, that’s all.  But there’s nothing political about getting a BJ, even in the Oval Office.

Quite, but Bill Clinton was President and the President deliberately lied to the American people and therefore, in effect, to your House of Representatives and your Senate. In my country that would have been more than sufficient to make it political, and that is why it is regarded as being a resignation matter. Marital infidelity is one thing; deceit and deception of political colleagues and, more importantly, the electorate is another.

To return to the subject: we were discussing politicians, and we were discussing mendacity.  You had said something to the effect that all politicians lie.  Why? (A not unnatural defence mechanism adopted by a journalist who doesn't happen to be gullible enough necessarily  to believe all he is told by someone seeking advantageous media coverage.)  In pursuing that inquiry, I find that the lying politician has something to hide…and I don’t mean BJ’s, and to his wife.  The essence of politics in a democracy is representing the people, ergo you need to lie when you betray that trust.

The core fact of lying politicians is they want to hold that trust, while they are betraying it.  Politics is for votes, and you need votes to get elected.  Lying is the lubricant that makes that possible.  So, the question becomes: who is in that position?  Go back to the beginning: conservatives represent special interests; [progressives represent the general interest].

That's a generalisation that I would be most hesitant in accepting, being old enough to remember the nefarious activities of Labour (i.e. progressive) MP Robert Maxwell who ruined the lives of his many employees in the (Labour supporting) Daily Mirror Group by actually stealing their pension funds! In my experience, not all Tories are knuckle-dragging far Right thugs and brutal captains of industry any more than all Labour supporters are almost invisibly to the Left of Mao T'se Tung.

The Tax Act that has recently been passed by Republicans in the US Congress (the only legislation that they have passed in 2017), is a classical case in point.  The primary purpose of the tax cut, they say, is to promote jobs.  We don’t need jobs.  We have achieved full employment (estimated at 4% unemployment).  That’s the first lie.

They say it will benefit the economy if we give the money to the wealthy, because the wealthy invest and it becomes the engine for growth.  But right now, the wealthy are awash in capital already.  Interest rates are the lowest in years, and everyone is flush.  Here’s the second lie: “Trickle-down economics” not only doesn’t work, but right now we wouldn’t need it if it did!

The amount in controversy here is about $1.5-trillion.  Where does it come from?  It will be financed by the deficit.  Oh…but to satisfy the deficit hawks, first we’ll increase taxes (or reduce deductions and write-offs) for the average Joe, so the middle class will pick up the tab.  No more state and local tax deduction...the middle class will pay taxes on taxes.  Oh...and no more mortgage deduction.  So, for the middle class it’s a tax hike; only for the wealthy is it a tax cut.

Undeterred by the lack of need for cash, the conservatives make their arguments because they think we are stupid (see, elitist thinking of the conservative mind).  What’s going to happen to the $1.5-trillion that we give the wealthy in the form of a massive tax cut?  The corporate decision-makers, needing no capital, will distribute it in the form of dividends (for themselves) and corporate buy-backs, which will mean the famous ‘1%’ will own even more of the world's wealth.  To wit: it’s a massive shift in wealth upward, to the already wealthy.

So, they are taking our money, and giving it away, to people who don’t need it.  Why?  Conservatives represent special interests.  To bring the point around full circle: when you don’t represent the interests of the people, you have incentive to lie every day.

Fred M. wrote:Quite, but Bill Clinton was President and the President deliberately lied to the American people and therefore, in effect, to your House of Representatives and your Senate. In my country that would have been more than sufficient to make it political, and that is why it is regarded as being a resignation matter. Marital infidelity is one thing; deceit and deception of political colleagues and, more importantly, the electorate is another.

Fred M. wrote:(A not unnatural defence mechanism adopted by a journalist who doesn't happen to be gullible enough necessarily  to believe all he is told by someone seeking advantageous media coverage.)

Fred M. wrote:That's a generalisation that I would be most hesitant in accepting, being old enough to remember the nefarious activities of Labour (i.e. progressive) MP Robert Maxwell who ruined the lives of his many employees in the (Labour supporting) Daily Mirror Group by actually stealing their pension funds! In my experience, not all Tories are knuckle-dragging far Right thugs and brutal captains of industry any more than all Labour supporters are almost invisibly to the Left of Mao T'se Tung.

Fred M. wrote:I can't comment with any degree of intelligence on your taxation policies on the not unreasonable grounds that I have difficulty enough in understanding our own!