If god is all powerful why does he allow sin?

Ben_Reilly wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

mary did have a child by the Holy spirit yes, 14 year old...really....

the only way to the father is through the son, that is true and what I believe, so do many messianic Jews... :D 

the OT speaks of the son of God, the jews knew that but they did not accept Jesus as that son but none the less they knew there was a son...

and still allah has no son... :D 

Yes, she was only 14, and yes, "the only way to the father is through the son," Jesus, which means that Jews who do not worship Jesus don't worship the same God as Christians do.

heavenly father wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Yes, she was only 14, and yes, "the only way to the father is through the son," Jesus, which means that Jews who do not worship Jesus don't worship the same God as Christians do.

where does the bible say she was 14...  

PhilDidge wrote:So now HF thinks the king James version is more accurate than the original version in Hebrew, one moment.

 ://?roflmao?/: 


Again this verse does not refer to Jesus, as he failed to rule and only now in the last century has the nation of Israel free risen again, so that shows that is not referring to Jesus

DOH

Again both Ben and myself are showing that your logic on Muslims not having the same deity, due to their disbelief in Jesus as a son of God would apply to the Jews, however the Jews do not see him as the son of God, thus by your logic, Jesus would only be a man, using your absurd logic of course on working back off the last faith


DOH


Bye, enjoy all, has been good fun and sport  

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

where does the bible say she was 14...  

Traditional early Christian stories and also most Jewish girls at the time were married between 12 and 14

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

where does the bible say she was 14...  

Traditional early Christian stories and also most Jewish girls at the time were married between 12 and 14

so it doesn't say at all..... :/pwn://: 

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:So now HF thinks the king James version is more accurate than the original version in Hebrew, one moment.

 ://?roflmao?/: 


Again this verse does not refer to Jesus, as he failed to rule and only now in the last century has the nation of Israel free risen again, so that shows that is not referring to Jesus

DOH

Again both Ben and myself are showing that your logic on Muslims not having the same deity, due to their disbelief in Jesus as a son of God would apply to the Jews, however the Jews do not see him as the son of God, thus by your logic, Jesus would only be a man, using your absurd logic of course on working back off the last faith


DOH


Bye, enjoy all, has been good fun and sport  

lol even hebrew agrees..lol  

ה  כִּי-יֶלֶד יֻלַּד-לָנוּ, בֵּן נִתַּן-לָנוּ, וַתְּהִי הַמִּשְׂרָה, עַל-שִׁכְמוֹ; וַיִּקְרָא שְׁמוֹ פֶּלֶא יוֹעֵץ, אֵל גִּבּוֹר, אֲבִי-עַד, שַׂר-שָׁלוֹם. 5 For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;.... :/pwn://: 

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

the Sun     Black holes       Gravity     Animus   
Plenty of examples

The sun is a good one, 'he' heats us, grows our food, defrosts our water, grants us light Yet he asks nothing in return.  Much nicer than the Christian god don't ya think ?    You can see him and everything I said about him is true, But I'm not sure if the sun has a gender   

If you can see God then that God would be made of ordinary matter and be part of this universe. A creator that is part of its creation? That's like saying Alan Turing is a transistor.

heavenly father wrote:God is not testing us with sin, he is letting us have responsibility for our actions, he could have made us all believers but instead he has given the right to chose to be God or without God..

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:God is not testing us with sin, he is letting us have responsibility for our actions, he could have made us all believers but instead he has given the right to chose to be God or without God..

That is impossible if your deity is an all knowing God.

If I have 5 choices to make today and need to choose one from a to E, and your god exists for arguments sake and knows I will choose E, how is it that I have responsibility for this choice, when I can clearly not chose any of the other options as I would prove god wrong in all knowing, thus my mind is already designed and programmed, to come to a decision at a any given specific time.
That means everything from all creation this creation is all planned in advance, meaning people are already designed not to follow a God, or ones where they will follow Christianity, because the future would be set in stone, thus for this to happen the deity would create you to carry out millions of specific views and actions, which form and bind all other actions programmed with all other living things, sequenced to synchronize perfectly, to thus obtain ensuring these futures. Because if I had real choice I could thus change that future, but I can't because to change the future would mean God is not all knowing and existence would know doubt cease to exist, as I have proved this deity wrong.

Thus due to the beliefs you have in a deity that does not say there is different possibilities to your future but that it is set in stone, means that nobody can be responsible for their actions as God has planned it all in advance. It also shows as the joke would really be on us if he did exist as he would have created us thinking we do have the freedom over are actions, knowing full well we would not, thus toying with us to fulfill his big plan what ever that maybe. Which I guess it would be no more than an experiment using many as guinea pigs, with the ones chosen as to be do wrong and judge wrong are screwed from the minute they are conceived and created, way back to the conception of why they are needed to fulfill the plan . If that really is the case then I would have rather not have been created in the first place, because the creation is not for many peoples benefit is it knowing they are created solely to endure eternal suffering.


I do not see that kind of deity, as loving at all using the belief of all knowing.

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


That is impossible if your deity is an all knowing God.

If I have 5 choices to make today and need to choose one from a to E, and your god exists for arguments sake and knows I will choose E, how is it that I have responsibility for this choice, when I can clearly not chose any of the other options as I would prove god wrong in all knowing, thus my mind is already designed and programmed, to come to a decision at a any given specific time.
That means everything from all creation this creation is all planned in advance, meaning people are already designed not to follow a God, or ones where they will follow Christianity, because the future would be set in stone, thus for this to happen the deity would create you to carry out millions of specific views and actions, which form and bind all other actions programmed with all other living things, sequenced to synchronize perfectly, to thus obtain ensuring these futures. Because if I had real choice I could thus change that future, but I can't because to change the future would mean God is not all knowing and existence would know doubt cease to exist, as I have proved this deity wrong.

Thus due to the beliefs you have in a deity that does not say there is different possibilities to your future but that it is set in stone, means that nobody can be responsible for their actions as God has planned it all in advance. It also shows as the joke would really be on us if he did exist as he would have created us thinking we do have the freedom over are actions, knowing full well we would not, thus toying with us to fulfill his big plan what ever that maybe. Which I guess it would be no more than an experiment using many as guinea pigs, with the ones chosen as to be do wrong and judge wrong are screwed from the minute they are conceived and created, way back to the conception of why they are needed to fulfill the plan . If that really is the case then I would have rather not have been created in the first place, because the creation is not for many peoples benefit is it knowing they are created solely to endure eternal suffering.


I do not see that kind of deity, as loving at all using the belief of all knowing.

lol how does God knowing your choice limit it...  

yet you have the choice, eternal life with God and he is so loving he has made a way that everything you have ever done can be forgiven all by just believing that Jesus died for you, now that is real love..
yet because we know decisions have consequences, if you decide you do not want to spend eternity with God he will not force you and you will spend eternity without God as per your choice...

ultimate freewill and real love...what a mighty God, Praise the Lord...  

smelly_bandit wrote:i see didge is struggling to differentiate between the concepts of freewill and predestination

heavenly father wrote:the fact he sees the end result does not mean you do not have the choice...

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:the fact he sees the end result does not mean you do not have the choice...

Really?
If the future is set, means you have no choice, how you cannot see that is staggering and shows the absurdity of religious faith.
So you need to answer my question which you have not answered, try again

There will be choices of things you do later today or tomorrow for example. Now an all knowing deity with no exception of multiple possibilities with the future sees the future set in stone. That means that future cannot change.
Thus you have 3 choices this afternoon A, B or C
The future deity Knows you will choose B.

If the future is set to you choosing B, then you had no choice making that decision even though you yourself might think you have, because being predetermined means you have no choices and are either designed to be allowed into heaven or into hell, thus no free will or choices.

That is not a loving or forgiving deity, because how can you ask forgiveness off people your yourself made happen. This the concept of this God being able to forgive is also based upon lie, and is actually quite sick to make people think they are responsible for their actions, when they are not for them to think they need forgiveness for things that God was responsible for and not them

You sadly do not get that if you believe in an all knowing deity.

back in a bit

PhilDidge wrote:Gets funnier by the minute, if the future is not set, then he cannot see all the future, meaning he is not all knowing

DOH

Blimey can you not work out anything?

PhilDidge wrote:Gets funnier by the minute, if the future is not set, then he cannot see all the future, meaning he is not all knowing

DOH

Blimey can you not work out anything?

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

his choice to give us freedom of choice limits his ability, he will give us every chance to make a decision to accept him.  [/quote


Then he would not be all knowing this God, if he cannot see your future choices, as we can only have free choice if the future is not set, but  the future would be set for an all knowing deity, something you are unable to contemplate as to why


Thus either he is not all knowing and he future is not set and he cannot foresee your future providing everyone with free will to chose or he is all knowing and nobody has free will or responsibilities over their actions

Can only be one or the other

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

he will see all possibilities in every moment in time of every life, your decisions that he has allowed  you will change that possible ending, God exists outside the constraints of time as he is eternal but meets us within the constraints of time when dealing with us.

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:


he will see all possibilities in every moment in time of every life, your decisions that he has allowed  you will change that possible ending, God exists outside the constraints of time as he is eternal but meets us within the constraints of time when dealing with us.

PMSL, so funny and utterly absurd, if you can change the ending then he is not all knowing and regardless of how God perceives time, it still means a person's actions will be determined, thus no free will


Oh I really cannot take anymore stupidity from you today, as I will end up peeing myself with laughter if I do

Seriously it is pointless debating you at times being how you have not a clue what you are talking about

Bye

PhilDidge wrote:PMSL, you need to read what you wrote again an understanding that is still predetermined, thus no free will

I cannot be bothered anymore and will await Zack, as you are utterly clueless

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

his choice to give us freedom of choice limits his ability, he will give us every chance to make a decision to accept him.  [/quote


Then he would not be all knowing this God, if he cannot see your future choices, as we can only have free choice if the future is not set, but  the future would be set for an all knowing deity, something you are unable to contemplate as to why


Thus either he is not all knowing and he future is not set and he cannot foresee your future providing everyone with free will to chose or he is all knowing and nobody has free will or responsibilities over their actions

Can only be one or the other

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

he will see all possibilities in every moment in time of every life, your decisions that he has allowed  you will change that possible ending, God exists outside the constraints of time as he is eternal but meets us within the constraints of time when dealing with us.

PhilDidge wrote:PMSL, you need to read what you wrote again an understanding that is still predetermined, thus no free will

I cannot be bothered anymore and will await Zack, as you are utterly clueless

smelly_bandit wrote:

heavenly father wrote:


he will see all possibilities in every moment in time of every life, your decisions that he has allowed  you will change that possible ending, God exists outside the constraints of time as he is eternal but meets us within the constraints of time when dealing with us.

exactly right

its a fluid and dynamic flow of time where our ending is always changing depending on the choices we make in life, even though god sees all the endings, it is our choices that determines which one we land on

today we may make a choice that changes our ending, ten years later we make another choice that will put us back on the same path to the same ending we followed now, and then ten minutes later another choice will mean another ending  

didge is thick and unable to think so deeply

smelly_bandit wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

is both

you're too stupid to understand it

he doesn't see a single outcome thus removing any ability for us to choose our own path, he throws out an infinite number of possibilities in front of us and allows us to make our decision on which path we choose to follow, that fact that he can see all the potential outcomes, choices and decisions we have to make but not make them for us, means that he is capable of granting us freewill without compromising his ability to know all

the only thing that is set is the date and time of our deaths, how we die is not set since it is determined on how we live  

PhilDidge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:


is both

you're too stupid to understand it

he doesn't see a single outcome thus removing any ability for us to choose our own path, he throws out an infinite number of possibilities in front of us and allows us to make our decision on which path we choose to follow, that fact that he can see all the potential outcomes, choices and decisions we have to make but not make them for us, means that he is capable of granting us freewill without compromising his ability to know all

the only thing that is set is the date and time of our deaths, how we die is not set since it is determined on how we live  

 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: 

That would still make utterly no difference being as are you now saying God cannot see what I chose in the future?

He as all knowing would know exactly what you chose to do still, thus being as he knows what you will do, that means it is predetermined again, so if he cannot see what I eventually chose he would not be all knowing, all knowing means not alternative outcomes, oh my

DOH

These 2 Christians cannot figure out simple logic as per usual and would love to see the verses stating possible alternative futures that God sees
Ha Ha ha

smelly_bandit wrote:

heavenly father wrote:


he will see all possibilities in every moment in time of every life, your decisions that he has allowed  you will change that possible ending, God exists outside the constraints of time as he is eternal but meets us within the constraints of time when dealing with us.

exactly right

its a fluid and dynamic flow of time where our ending is always changing depending on the choices we make in life, even though god sees all the endings, it is our choices that determines which one we land on

today we may make a choice that changes our ending, ten years later we make another choice that will put us back on the same path to the same ending we followed now, and then ten minutes later another choice will mean another ending  

didge is thick and unable to think so deeply

victorismyhero wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

exactly right

its a fluid and dynamic flow of time where our ending is always changing depending on the choices we make in life, even though god sees all the endings, it is our choices that determines which one we land on

today we may make a choice that changes our ending, ten years later we make another choice that will put us back on the same path to the same ending we followed now, and then ten minutes later another choice will mean another ending  

didge is thick and unable to think so deeply

that supposition is non sense, given an omniscient deity, Since he knows the path we will take through those choices. At EACH choice he knows what we will do (and of course he also knows what all those "points of choice" will be) IF he is omniscient OUR future is history to him. And if you actually THINK about it it matters not one bit what we do at a point of choice ANYWAY. Because god already knows (regardless of what choices we have) whether we burn or not. Our FINAL fate is know to him....so the argument really only comes down to "why create a sould which you know you are going to condemn to the firey pit of sulphur or whatever"  You cannot escape this argument...It is integral to the monotheist/omnipotent/omniscient/interfering god type faiths....  NO MATTER WHAT the path we choose...him upstairs knows the final line.....if he didnt we would be able to surprise him.

It breaks down to this

AT the moment you (or your soul...is it seperate to "you" or is it "you"???) is created, your god (claiming omniscience) also knows your final fate does he not...not merely possibilities but your actual final fate...

yes or no???

victorismyhero wrote:the more they wriggle the more I chuckle   

victorismyhero wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

exactly right

its a fluid and dynamic flow of time where our ending is always changing depending on the choices we make in life, even though god sees all the endings, it is our choices that determines which one we land on

today we may make a choice that changes our ending, ten years later we make another choice that will put us back on the same path to the same ending we followed now, and then ten minutes later another choice will mean another ending  

didge is thick and unable to think so deeply

that supposition is non sense, given an omniscient deity, Since he knows the path we will take through those choices. At EACH choice he knows what we will do (and of course he also knows what all those "points of choice" will be) IF he is omniscient OUR future is history to him. And if you actually THINK about it it matters not one bit what we do at a point of choice ANYWAY. Because god already knows (regardless of what choices we have) whether we burn or not. Our FINAL fate is know to him....so the argument really only comes down to "why create a sould which you know you are going to condemn to the firey pit of sulphur or whatever"  You cannot escape this argument...It is integral to the monotheist/omnipotent/omniscient/interfering god type faiths....  NO MATTER WHAT the path we choose...him upstairs knows the final line.....if he didnt we would be able to surprise him.

It breaks down to this

AT the moment you (or your soul...is it seperate to "you" or is it "you"???) is created, your god (claiming omniscience) also knows your final fate does he not...not merely possibilities but your actual final fate...

yes or no???

victorismyhero wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

exactly right

its a fluid and dynamic flow of time where our ending is always changing depending on the choices we make in life, even though god sees all the endings, it is our choices that determines which one we land on

today we may make a choice that changes our ending, ten years later we make another choice that will put us back on the same path to the same ending we followed now, and then ten minutes later another choice will mean another ending  

didge is thick and unable to think so deeply

that supposition is non sense, given an omniscient deity, Since he knows the path we will take through those choices. At EACH choice he knows what we will do (and of course he also knows what all those "points of choice" will be) IF he is omniscient OUR future is history to him. And if you actually THINK about it it matters not one bit what we do at a point of choice ANYWAY. Because god already knows (regardless of what choices we have) whether we burn or not. Our FINAL fate is know to him....so the argument really only comes down to "why create a sould which you know you are going to condemn to the firey pit of sulphur or whatever"  You cannot escape this argument...It is integral to the monotheist/omnipotent/omniscient/interfering god type faiths....  NO MATTER WHAT the path we choose...him upstairs knows the final line.....if he didnt we would be able to surprise him.

It breaks down to this

AT the moment you (or your soul...is it seperate to "you" or is it "you"???) is created, your god (claiming omniscience) also knows your final fate does he not...not merely possibilities but your actual final fate...

yes or no???

victorismyhero wrote:so you keep saying, but you dont answer the question do you.....

AT the moment you (or your soul...is it seperate to "you" or is it "you"???) is created, your god (claiming omniscience) also knows your final fate does he not...not merely possibilities but your actual final fate...

yes or no???

heavenly father wrote:

victorismyhero wrote:so you keep saying, but you dont answer the question do you.....

AT the moment you (or your soul...is it seperate to "you" or is it "you"???) is created, your god (claiming omniscience) also knows your final fate does he not...not merely possibilities but your actual final fate...

yes or no???

yes he does know your final fate... 

victorismyhero wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

yes he does know your final fate... 

therefor why create a soul, knowing it will eventually fry?? since it cannot change that (known) final fate?

victorismyhero wrote:circular argument...invalid...

if "he" knows our final fate...then there is NO choice, or at least whilst we may have at each time a choice, the eventual sum will always add up to what god knows is to be our fate...

a man born to fry has say 10 choices in his life and chooses good for 9 of them...then no matter WHAT the 10th will ALWAYS HAVE to be evil...otherwise god will be surprised....

victorismyhero wrote:that has to be the most ridiculous argument i have ever heard from ANYONE....IF he knows the final fate ...he also knows therefor if "he" will change it in some way...He KNOWS whether that some one will "beleive" or not...whether that someone will ask for forgiveness...SO HE KNOWS ...regardless of ANYTHING, anything at all, when you are "made" whether of not he will fry you....there is simply NOTHING you can do to avoid it, you will simply be unable to make that necessary choice to avoid that laid down fate

You cannot make an argument that leads out of this logical fallacy....your only answer is "faith" and THAT is not a logical answer....