90 year old escapes jail after killing two pedestrians

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/90-year-old-philip-bull-13862715

He received a 2 year suspended sentence, much to the disgust of the dead womens families.
Its a sad case, but I dont see what good jailing him would have done.



"A 90 year-old man is due to be sentenced today after admitting killing a couple outside a hospital by ‘unintentionally’ pressing the accelerator in his automatic car.

Philip Bull had just dropped off his ‘elderly and infirm’ wife at Withington Community hospital when he crashed into Clare Haslam, 44 and Deborah Clifton, 49, in the car park outside, a court heard.

The ‘inseparable’ couple, who had a daughter and were ‘blissfully happy’ together, were rushed to A&E but later died of their injuries.

Bull has now admitted two counts of causing death by dangerous driving at Manchester Crown Court after hitting the pedestrians."

Two years suspended isn't enough. He obviously needs to stop driving.

Like you Syl, there's no point sending to prison at his age.

magica wrote:Two years suspended isn't enough. He obviously needs to stop driving.

Like you Syl, there's no point sending to prison at his age.

Suspended from serving time I mean, I doubt whether he will ever be alllowed to drive again.
It calls into attention how come such elderly people are still allowed to drive though.

I had to take my moms keys a few years ago. She's now 86. She pitched a fit, but I finally told her that she didn't want to spend what time she had left, thinking about someone she killed. Plus I didn't want to have to wonder if I was partly responsible, for letting her continue to drive.

Maddog wrote:I had to take my moms keys a few years ago. She's now 86. She pitched a fit, but I finally told her that she didn't want to spend what time she had left, thinking about someone she killed. Plus I didn't want to have to wonder if I was partly responsible, for letting her continue to drive.  

It must be hard to admit you dont have the faculties you have always taken for granted, and it must have been hard for you too.
I think it should be up to the state to have compulsary driving and health checks for people from a certain age....maybe 80 if they are still active.

Syl wrote:

Maddog wrote:I had to take my moms keys a few years ago. She's now 86. She pitched a fit, but I finally told her that she didn't want to spend what time she had left, thinking about someone she killed. Plus I didn't want to have to wonder if I was partly responsible, for letting her continue to drive.  

It must be hard to admit you dont have the faculties you have always taken for granted, and it must have been hard for you too.
I think it should be up to the state to have compulsary driving and health checks for people from a certain age....maybe 80 if they are still active.

Yeah, nobody likes admitting they ain't what they used to be. I know I suck at it.

I dont even consider it.

I think he must have been driving an automatic.   It's easy to get the foot pedals mixed up on those, at least I think so.  I much prefer gears.  I think had the car been gears, it may not have happened.   Everyone makes mistakes though, and it's mostly young people.

The thing is, and which the family are so upset about, is that it was his age that seemed to be concentrated on in court, they felt the women who were killed by his mistake were not given justice.
Had a younger person made the same error which resulted in loss of life they would have been imprisoned, probably for dangerous driving.

I can understand their anger, but he IS 90, has been a good law abiding man all his life, is the carer of his elderly wife who suffers from dementia, if they want him punished I imagine living with himself knowing he killed two pedestrians will be the worst punishment he could ever have.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/07/relatives-fury-90-year-old-motorist-killed-two-women-spared/

It will stay on his mind till he dies Syl.

nicko wrote:It will stay on his mind till he dies Syl.

It will, its heartbreaking.

I feel so sad for the family of the two women as well, in court they made it clear how they felt.

"But friends and family of the two women, who were from Chorlton, wept in the public gallery. One man shouted: "The British justice system is s---" and some stormed out of court.
A woman told relatives of Mr Bull: "I hope you dad lives a long time to regret this.
I hope he thinks about them every day. He should’ve gone to jail.  It doesn’t matter how old you are, he caused death by dangerous driving he took my sister away."




Its a really sad case for all concerned.

Can understand the anger, but what would Prison achieve? His wife would have to go into care, costing the taxpayer money. As I said, he'll think about every day, and why punish his wife by taking her career away?

nicko wrote:Can understand the anger, but what would Prison achieve?    His wife would have to go into care, costing the taxpayer money.    As I said, he'll think about every day,   and why punish his wife by taking her career away?

Good points there nicko.

I feel sorry for him, I can't help it. It was an accident - he didn't do it intentionally. I bet he gets really unwell now from the stress.

If he was some 20 year old spunker we would all be howling for his head.

Why does he get a free pass because he is old?? He still killed people.

smelly-bandit wrote:If he was some 20 year old spunker we would all be howling for his head.

Why does he get a free pass because he is old?? He still killed people.

For all the reasons stated in the above posts.

HoratioTarr wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:If he was some 20 year old spunker we would all be howling for his head.

Why does he get a free pass because he is old?? He still killed people.

For all the reasons stated in the above posts.

Because he is old and about to die and would end up costing more than he is worth???

That's not a reason

smelly-bandit wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:


For all the reasons stated in the above posts.

Because he is old and about to die and would end up costing more than he is worth???

That's not a reason

Will his imprisonment bring those women back?    He didn't murder them.   It was an accident.

HoratioTarr wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:

Because he is old and about to die and would end up costing more than he is worth???

That's not a reason

Will his imprisonment bring those women back?    He didn't murder them.   It was an accident.

Was it??

Or was it because he was a person who was too advanced in years and lost the skills required to drive safely??

I once saw some old timer zooming round a roundabout the wrong fucking way, and off he went, oblivious.

Not an accident, incompetence and negligence.

Apologies to nicko who I'm sure is fine, but in my opinion from the shit I've seen old driver pull, everyone who reaches 70 needs to undergo an assessment every 5 years minimum

I do actually agree that once you hit a certain age, you should be made to take your test again.

There but for the Grace of God go I. But.......

I am 79 in a few months' time. I can outpace many 60-year-olds on a walk. My reactions are, according to my BMW Z-series-driving 20 year old grandson after a stupid twat in a Corsa skipped a red light and narrowly missed the bonnet of my own BMW, "awesome."

I can still handle my beloved 1971 classic Series 2a Land Rover that steers like a pregnant duck, has no sync on first and second gears, needs double de-clutching and has no power steering requiring the shoulders and arm strength of Arnold Schwazenegger, so............

Don't write off all we oldies yet.

At your peril!

eddie wrote:I do actually agree that once you hit a certain age, you should be made to take your test again.

I am happy to. Any day.

When I can no longer hack it then I will hand in my licence and get a mobility scooter.

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

eddie wrote:I do actually agree that once you hit a certain age, you should be made to take your test again.

I am happy to. Any day.

When I can no longer  hack it then I will hand in my licence and get a mobility scooter.

Or a hot air ballon? Speedy way to travel.

Fred Moletrousers wrote:There but for the Grace of God go I. But.......

I am 79 in a few months' time. I can outpace many 60-year-olds on a walk. My reactions are, according to my BMW Z-series-driving 20 year old grandson after a stupid twat in a Corsa skipped a red light and narrowly missed the bonnet of my own BMW, "awesome."

I can still handle my beloved 1971 classic Series 2a Land Rover that steers like a pregnant duck, has no sync on first and second gears, needs double de-clutching and has no power steering requiring the shoulders and arm strength of Arnold Schwazenegger, so............

Don't write off all we oldies yet.

At your peril!

I'm sure you wield your walking cane like a master fencer Fred.

But at the same time we can't clear all oldies because you're too stubborn to submit.

But some are too proud to admit they are losing it and fearful of what losing the ability to drive means and so they crack on regardless.

This time it resulted in tragedy, maybe next time too.

smelly-bandit wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:There but for the Grace of God go I. But.......

I am 79 in a few months' time. I can outpace many 60-year-olds on a walk. My reactions are, according to my BMW Z-series-driving 20 year old grandson after a stupid twat in a Corsa skipped a red light and narrowly missed the bonnet of my own BMW, "awesome."

I can still handle my beloved 1971 classic Series 2a Land Rover that steers like a pregnant duck, has no sync on first and second gears, needs double de-clutching and has no power steering requiring the shoulders and arm strength of Arnold Schwazenegger, so............

Don't write off all we oldies yet.

At your peril!

I'm sure you wield your walking cane like a master fencer Fred.

But at the same time we can't clear all oldies because you're too stubborn to submit.

But some are too proud to admit they are losing it and fearful of what losing the ability to drive means and so they crack on regardless.

This time it resulted in tragedy, maybe next time too.

I have carried a "walking cane" since I was 30...not because I needed one then, or need one now, but because "a walking stick is a good companion" and I have a dozen of 'em ranging from a Cumbrian shepherd's thumbstick to a silver-topped, fox-head and very heavy stinkwood "peacemaker" bought in East Africa that would fell an ox!

I take your point, though. I'll know when I am no longer physically or mentally unable to get behind the wheel...and at that point I'll get that scooter!

You just have to trust me. When I can't see off in a debate those congenital idiots ******, **** ****, or ****, then that will be the time!

I think the driving test should be retaken when a person reaches a certain age.
I also think they should pass an eye and hearing test before their licence is reissued.
At the moment everyone who reaches the age of 70, just reapplies, then the same every 3 years thereafter, no checks required.

Having said all that, young men are by far the most dangerous drivers on the roads.

Syl wrote:I think the driving test should be retaken when a person reaches a certain age.
I also think they should pass an eye and hearing test before their licence is reissued.
At the moment everyone who reaches the age of 70, just reapplies, then the same every 3 years thereafter, no checks required.

Having said all that, young men are by far the most dangerous drivers on the roads.

There are, statistically, more accidents and deaths caused by young drivers.   And anyway this wasn't about the 90 year old's eyes or hearing, but his confusion between the brake and accelerator.  I think you'll find this is fairly common and he just panicked.   

In the case of Toyota vehicles supposedly speeding out of control, scientists who spent nearly a year investigating the issue say most incidents were caused by drivers confusing the gas and brake pedals.
"It happens all the time because people panic and once the brain is in a panic mode, it stops thinking and your instincts take over," said Miriam Schottland, a driving instructor who specializes in high performance and evasive driving "and your instincts can tell you to do the wrong thing. While making that mistake seems unimaginable, experts say it can actually happen fairly easily.
She's seen it happen to experienced professional drivers in training situations, she said. Even they can fail to quickly figure out what's happening and correct it.


http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/11/autos/pedal_misapplication/index.htm

Many years ago I accidentally pressed accelerator instead of brake and ended up in the middle of my front garden.
Two men who were working over the road carried on the joke about 'women drivers' for over a week every time I saw them.

Syl wrote:Many years ago I accidentally pressed accelerator instead of brake and ended up in the middle of my front garden.
Two men who were working over the road carried on the joke about 'women drivers' for over a week every time I saw them.

 Accidents happen, no matter your age.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Syl wrote:Many years ago I accidentally pressed accelerator instead of brake and ended up in the middle of my front garden.
Two men who were working over the road carried on the joke about 'women drivers' for over a week every time I saw them.

 Accidents happen, no matter your age.

Yeah, I think so much has been made of his age because he wasn't jailed.
Had a younger person made the same mistake and killed 2 people they would probably been found guilty of dangerous driving or not giving due care and attention...something similar, and been given a custodial sentence.

I'm 76, passed my advanced driver training test a few months back.

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:

I'm sure you wield your walking cane like a master fencer Fred.

But at the same time we can't clear all oldies because you're too stubborn to submit.

But some are too proud to admit they are losing it and fearful of what losing the ability to drive means and so they crack on regardless.

This time it resulted in tragedy, maybe next time too.

I have carried a "walking cane" since I was 30...not because I needed one then, or need one now, but because "a walking stick is a good companion" and I have a dozen of 'em ranging from a Cumbrian shepherd's thumbstick to a silver-topped, fox-head and very heavy stinkwood "peacemaker" bought in East Africa that would fell an ox!

I take your point, though. I'll know when I am no longer physically or mentally unable to get behind the wheel...and at that point I'll get that scooter!

You just have to trust me. When I can't see off in a debate those congenital idiots ******, **** ****, or ****, then that will be the time!

come now fred, there will never come a time when you will never be able to see off the feeble minds of idiots ******, **** ****, or ****

nicko wrote:I'm 76, passed my advanced driver training test a few months back.

Well done!

In regards to the OP

What a disgrace!

SEXY MAMA wrote:

nicko wrote:I'm 76, passed my advanced driver training test a few months back.

Well done!

In regards to the OP

What a disgrace!

Do you think its a disgrace he wasnt jailed, or a disgrace that the families of the two dead women were so incensed he wasnt jailed?.

smelly-bandit wrote:If he was some 20 year old spunker we would all be howling for his head.

Why does he get a free pass because he is old?? He still killed people.

I agree. The reasons for punishment are removal, rehabilitation, deterrence, and a part of it is for retribution. To hell with his circumstances.

It wasn't murder it was a tragic accident- its tragic for all concerned and I really don't see sending him to prison would achieve . If he had gone up the pavement revved the shit our of his car and deliberately run them down then yes he would need to be in prison - but this was an accident that took two innocent lives so so sad .

Dealing with a loved with dementia is no fun its a 24/7 worry you never ever get any peace of mind - I know my dad had lewy body dementia and Parkinson's and its a constant strain on you - the stress is enormous .

veya_victaous wrote:

so in this short film we see a typical irresponsible young thing not only running across a road, without looking, but also wearing earphones so she isnt aware even of the sound of traffic.......

and yet veya wants to blame the older driver????

Original Quill wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:If he was some 20 year old spunker we would all be howling for his head.

Why does he get a free pass because he is old?? He still killed people.

I agree.  The reasons for punishment are removal, rehabilitation, deterrence, and a part of it is for retribution.  To hell with his circumstances.

whats that first part quill??

you agree with me???

Original Quill wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:If he was some 20 year old spunker we would all be howling for his head.

Why does he get a free pass because he is old?? He still killed people.

I agree.  The reasons for punishment are removal, rehabilitation, deterrence, and a part of it is for retribution.  To hell with his circumstances.

and a cornerstone of justice is proportionality

Is retribution called for when a mistake, albeit tragic, not engendered by malice or deliberate negligence (i'e it would be different if he was drunk) results even in the loss of life?

have we got to the point where everyone is incapable of allowing that "shit happens" (I can understand the families reaction obviously) but the rest of you??????

the best would be the permanent loss of his licence, to ensure no repitition......At his age one serious loss of concentration should be enough to raise the red flag over his abilities.

I think refresher courses are a good idea for over a certain age not a full driving test .

nope vod....they would just become a cash cow....
then used by the likes of veya to price older drivers off the road....

and ALL this older driver this and older driver that is pure idiotic nonsense....
as witnessed by the fact i pay only about £200 a year for my 3.5 tonne van with 2.5 ltr cdi engine....(and that covers my use of it in my business too.

Lord Foul wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

so in this short film we see a typical irresponsible young thing not only running across a road, without looking, but also wearing earphones so she isnt aware even of the sound of traffic.......

and yet veya wants to blame the older driver????

yep, you hit it you're at fault
Can't handle that give back your license you're not fit to drive

Lord Foul wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:If he was some 20 year old spunker we would all be howling for his head.

Why does he get a free pass because he is old?? He still killed people.

I agree.  The reasons for punishment are removal, rehabilitation, deterrence, and a part of it is for retribution.  To hell with his circumstances.

and a cornerstone of justice is proportionality

Is retribution called for when a mistake, albeit tragic, not engendered by malice or deliberate negligence (i'e it would be different if he was drunk) results even in the loss of life?

have we got to the point where everyone is incapable of allowing that "shit happens" (I can understand the families reaction obviously) but the rest of you??????

the best would be the permanent loss of his licence, to ensure no repitition......At his age one serious loss of concentration should be enough to raise the red flag over his abilities.

I agree with Smelly too, Hypocritical old Lord Foul would be preaching the complete opposite if it where a 20 year old that killed people.

once you get too old for jail to be a deterrent (so 70) you should be off the road

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:I think refresher courses are a good idea for over a certain age not a full driving test .

Correct, they can help weed out those whose driving skills have degraded with age.

I'm waiting to see how these "younger" drivers cope with a good fall of Snow !

veya_victaous wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

so in this short film we see a typical irresponsible young thing not only running across a road, without looking, but also wearing earphones so she isnt aware even of the sound of traffic.......

and yet veya wants to blame the older driver????

yep, you hit it you're at fault
Can't handle that give back your license you're not  fit to drive

bullshit...never heard of the concept of contributary negligence
you are a typical member of the snowflake generation...whatever shit happens to YOU is ALWAYS someone elses fault, even if YOU are in fact the cause.

and statistically you are FAR more likely to be run down by some pushy bmw driving rep or teen twat than an 80 year old...as the insurance companies show.

Syl wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Well done!

In regards to the OP

What a disgrace!

Do you think its a disgrace he wasnt jailed, or a disgrace that the families of the two dead women were so incensed he wasnt jailed?.

Both tbh

smelly-bandit wrote:

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:I think refresher courses are a good idea for over a certain age not a full driving test .

Correct, they can help weed out those whose driving skills have degraded with age.

Indeed.

veya_victaous wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:

and a cornerstone of justice is proportionality

Is retribution called for when a mistake, albeit tragic, not engendered by malice or deliberate negligence (i'e it would be different if he was drunk) results even in the loss of life?

have we got to the point where everyone is incapable of allowing that "shit happens" (I can understand the families reaction obviously) but the rest of you??????

the best would be the permanent loss of his licence, to ensure no repitition......At his age one serious loss of concentration should be enough to raise the red flag over his abilities.

I agree with Smelly too, Hypocritical old Lord Foul would be preaching the complete opposite if it where a 20 year old that killed people.

once you get too old for jail to be a deterrent (so 70) you should be off the road

You won't be saying that when you're 70 and still have all your faculties, and some bit of a kid thinks you're too senile to drive.

So lets see you are going to effectively drive almost every older driver off the road..is that the idea? When the insurance statistics show that in fact they are the safer drivers?

see a test (and theres no reason to think a retest would be less) costs a total of £95 and then you ALSO want a refresher course. with driving lessons costing £25 per hour upward and assuming 4 hours for a refresher course thats a total of £295 every year? ON TOP of the insurance road tax etc....

of course you will ALL be happy to pay the extra £1000 a year in council tax to make sure that there are busses available in ALL locations AT convenient times WITH stops in appropriate places, to provide transport for those whom you have priced off the road???

some one go find the number of accidents this year where the old age of the driver was a contributary factor...then find similar stats for where the young age of the driver...(inexperience/sheer idiocy/irresponsibility) was a factor

you will then know who to get off the road
(followed closely by the "rep" in his BMW/huge VW/Audi)