We thought the Nazi threat was dead. But Donald Trump has revived it

The word from the White House is that the events at Charlottesville are behind them now, and they’re ready to move on. Sure, there is still some fallout from the 12 August march by neo-Nazis, white supremacists and the Ku Klux Klan, as well as from Donald Trump’s subsequent declaration that those racists and fascists who carried flaming torches and swastika flags included some “very fine people”. There are reverberations too from the president’s initial non-condemnation condemnation, in which if he saw “hatred, bigotry and violence” at all, he saw it “on many sides”.

One such aftershock came today, when Gary Cohn, Trump’s chief economic adviser, told the Financial Times the administration “must do better” in denouncing such groups unequivocally, and that, “as a Jewish-American”, he had considered resignation. Still, the message from Team Trump is that all this is in the past. They want the focus to switch to the legislative battles ahead, especially to their plan to give a gargantuan tax cut to the richest people and corporations in America.

They might just get away with it. One of the dizzying lessons of this presidency is that outrage can be dulled by outrage, that fury at one atrocious act is hard to sustain if fury at another soon replaces it. Consider that only four weeks ago Trump all but called for police brutality, telling an audience of uniformed officers they had no need to treat suspects gently. Or that a week or so later he took the world to the brink of nuclear confrontation with North Korea. There is a numbing effect to the frequency of such horrors. We become punch-drunk.

But if Trump succeeds in moving past Charlottesville, it won’t only be thanks to an unavoidable process of attrition that has worn liberals down. I’m afraid Trump’s opponents made a tactical error. He wanted to change the subject to the question of Confederate statues – and they let him. Days after those violent clashes had seen an antiracist protester murdered, the national conversation centred not on that act of terrorism but on which historical figures should be remembered, and how.

Make no mistake, that’s an important argument. But it is inevitably a nuanced one that, as we have seen in Britain too, divides liberal opinion. Two people, equally fervent in their loathing of racism, might disagree on whether it’s better to remove a monument, or keep it as a reminder of a shaming past. And there will never be an easy consensus on where to draw the line. If owning slaves is the key criterion, should the statues of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson come down too?

Trump’s opponents have spent much of the past two weeks talking about Confederate generals and US history, when they should have maintained a laser focus on the key and shocking point: that an American president spoke with sympathy and admiration for neo-Nazis; that he put these fascists on a moral par with those who oppose them; and that he was more animated in condemning what he called the alt-left than he ever was in lambasting those who parroted the slogans of the KKK, who brandished the symbols of white supremacism and who chanted: “Jews will not replace us.”

These are the key facts that should shock every American and a watching world. And here’s what’s at stake.

For 70 years, since the end of the second world war, a consensus held across the democratic world that seemed so obvious it barely needed stating. It declared that some ideas are beyond the pale, that certain beliefs are taboo because they are unconscionable.

The key prohibition was on any ideology whose organising principle was genocidal racism. It meant, therefore, that even to use a phrase or image associated with the Nazi credo ensured instant ostracism: think of the periodic controversies over public figures accused of dressing up in Nazi regalia, replicating the “sieg heil” salute, or using the phrase “final solution”. Whatever else we might disagree on, all but a tiny, isolated fringe understood and accepted that Hitlerism was out of bounds.

Incredibly, Trump has ditched that understanding. When he praised those marchers, he stomped all over that taboo. What’s more, and crucially, he has done it without paying a price. Cohn may have agonised privately, as perhaps have some other Trump aides. (It’s barely worth mentioning Trump’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner, who the novelists Michael Chabon and Ayelet Waldman predict will be remembered as one of the Jewish people’s “greatest traitors and greatest fools”.) But not one of them has resigned. A few Republicans have rebuked him. But the collective repudiation of Trump that this act surely merited has not come.

It is this non-reaction that announces that the Nazi taboo is dead. Now it’s clear that it can be broken without consequence, it has lost its force. Indeed, the effect of Trump’s action is to have opened up the veins of the US, allowing the poison of the far right to flow into the bloodstream. A poll taken after Charlottesville found that 9% of Americans believe holding neo-Nazi or white supremacist views is acceptable. That’s 30 million people.

It never used to be this way. When the KKK burned a cross on the lawn of a black home in Maryland in 1982, Ronald and Nancy Reagan visited the Butler family to reassure them that the racists did not represent America. And now the man sitting in Reagan’s chair praises those who wear the Klan’s robes as “very fine people”.

All this is a cue for Trump’s opponents to redouble their efforts to bring this horrific presidency to an end. But it is also a warning against our own complacency.

We may have believed that the tacit prohibition on Nazi ideas was sufficiently entrenched that it no longer needed defending. The history is taught in schools, and replayed in endless TV documentaries. But when almost one in 10 Americans see no problem in the ideology of a movement that killed tens of millions – and that sought the total eradication of a specific group, namely Jews, from the face of the earth – then the task is clear.

We need to teach the darkest chapter in human history with renewed vigour, as if for the first time. And we have to do it with the urgent understanding that this is no longer about the past – but about averting a deadly future.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/25/donald-trump-nazis-far-right-charlottesville


Don't often agree with Jonathan Freedland, but on this he is absolutely right.

Oh, and here is a picture of the KKK putting up the statue of Robert E Lee in 1924



Fuck all to do with history, everything to do with white supremacy.

Can you really judge all those "nazi" people because of one person who drove a car into a bunch of protesters though? That's like labelling all Muslims as terrorists.

From what I saw, there was a lot of brawling - on both sides.

Raggamuffin wrote:Can you really judge all those "nazi" people because of one person who drove a car into a bunch of protesters though? That's like labelling all Muslims as terrorists.

From what I saw, there was a lot of brawling - on both sides.

It is an interesting article, one that has good points and others severely flawed.
Jonathan is understandably concerned, being as he is a British Jew and where a President fails to specifically condemn the Nazis and white supremacists. 

The problem with the article is where it is claiming all white supremacists are Nazi's, thus backing the genocide of the Jews/Slavs/homosexuals etc. That is not the reality. Where its abhorrent that people are white supremacists, to claim they are the same as Nazi's is inherently flawed. As they all have their own different ideology and beliefs. 

Now any form of white Supremacy is appalling, but Nazism, stands leaps and bounds above the rest in being an abomination. Where people should always stand united against such hate, just as we should whether it be the Far left, Islamism, Anarchism etc. The argument made is that if people are white supremacists, then they are Nazi's, backing the Holocaust. (Ignoring the fact many Islamist's also do or are Holocaust denialists.) Its like saying that any Communists are all Stalinist's or Maoists and back the genocide by either. Nobody would make such a comparison, but it often happens when Far Right groups are clubbed together and simple labeled Nazi's.

Now its a worrying issue that Trump seems to want to do little to curb this extremism and people need to stand up and peacefully protest against them, not like Antifa, think they can break the law and use violence. I do not see them do this towards Islamist, who are as much a danger to a free secular society. It shows some on the left have a warped view on what is problematic. When they should stand united with many Liberals against Far Right extremism, Far Left extremism, and religious extremism. The later being more a radical Christian issue in the US. In fact the US has little problems with Islamism, as many Muslims there are progressive. Though globally, Islamism alongside North Korea, Syria and Iran poses the biggest threat to stability.

You cannot stop people having beliefs or criminalizing them, but we should stand up to any belief, that looks to oppress others. Again it is about combating all these forms of hate through reason. All that is going to happen is a battle between the Far left and Far right and more innocent bystanders will end up dying in the US. As they play out their war between each other, with many innocents suffering. Violence on the streets on 1930's Germany, between the Communists and Nazi's. Did not stop Nazism coming to power. In fact it escalated the violence and suffering. The German Governments failed to stem this violence. In fact they the Nazi's had very few seats and support until the Wall street crash in 1929. Then they shot up in support when Hitler took advantage of the horrific economic situation in Germany, casting blame. Using fear to gain support.

Trump I hope will soon be removed from office, through impeachment, but for people to seriously think that Nazism will take over the US, are seriously deluded, as the vast majority will never let it happens.

What gets me, is you never here those vocal now on this Nazism, be vocal of the threat of Islamism, or call to fight them, where ever they are. When Islamism, is nothing short of a Totalitarian oppressive system, which has seen countless centuries of violence and genocide. We rightly talk about the wrongs of Imperialism, slavery and Colonialism, but shy away from talking about Arabization and slavery.

You may find this interesting Rags


https://www.vox.com/first-person/2017/8/18/16166708/charlottesville-white-supremacy-neo-nazis-confederacy

what gets me is that Thorin Still Thinks he can go attack some non western non democracy for not being western democracy YET finds it fitting to justify and excuse, thru false equivalency, Nazism in a western democracy.

What right does he have to try and fix others when we cant fix ourselves?

And White Supremacist all back SLAVERY you know that was a lot worse and lasted a lot longer than the holocaust right? far more Blacks (which are apparently All Far left by your strawman justification for defending Nazism) suffered and died through slavery.

OP, you thought 'Nazism was dead'????  
Don't be silly.
Evil never sleeps, let alone dies, my friend.

There is something of the night about Stephen Miller (Bannon's 32 yo butt-buddy in the white house.)
The creeeepiest of all the reptillian creeps.
SM was a serious political activist since his mid teens (Willian Hague style) - that alone is a red flag.
A big fat red flag.

Jules wrote:There is something of the night about Stephen Miller (Bannon's 32 yo butt-buddy in the white house.)
The creeeepiest of all the reptillian creeps.
SM was a serious political activist since his mid teens (Willian Hague style) - that alone is a red flag.
A big fat red flag.

His face and eyes are cold as a stone. He has no soul or conscience. He's the scariest one Trump has found, and that is saying a lot. This whole administration all look like they crawled out of the depths of hell.

Lurker wrote:

Jules wrote:There is something of the night about Stephen Miller (Bannon's 32 yo butt-buddy in the white house.)
The creeeepiest of all the reptillian creeps.
SM was a serious political activist since his mid teens (Willian Hague style) - that alone is a red flag.
A big fat red flag.

His face and eyes are cold as a stone. He has no soul or conscience. He's the scariest one Trump has found, and that is saying a lot. This whole administration all look like they crawled out of the depths of hell.

I share that feeling. There is something reptilian about Miller.

Saw this, couldn't resist:

Conservative Republicans in the US have always been full of hate and disdain for anyone who disagrees with them. They can be the most vile animals on the planet. It's no surprise that they have resurrected the Nazis. hell, they even have God on their side. Fuck'em all!

Lurker wrote:Conservative Republicans in the US have always been full of hate and disdain for anyone who disagrees with them. They can be the most vile animals on the planet. It's no surprise that they have resurrected the Nazis. hell, they even have God on their side. Fuck'em all!

Well there you have it, equating the Republicans to the Nazis, based solely off one person Trump an idiot.
Now any Far right clearly are hateful and should be condemned, but all I see is hate from yourself and castigating a mass of Americans, because of their Republican beliefs.

So what exactly are you resurrecting? Stalinist commies and anarchist also hateful, intent on causing a civil war?

How many innocent people are going to die through this escalation of constant hate promoted by the Far Left and Far Right? You be critical of policies and beliefs, take on the core poor values of that system or political belief system.

How many will die, until you are happy, your hate has been sated?

Seriously?

I do not see any genuine criticism here, but looking to make it a them and us, cause of conflict in the US. Based off the violent hate from both the extreme left and right.

Have none of you fucking learnt from history?

This violence started once before in the 1920's Germany by extreme groups on both left and right. Where the extreme left targets any on the right as well as the Nazi's and the Nazi's targeted any on the left.

It did not bode well and the violence escalated. Which then the Nazi's came to power.

Seriously, do you see how hateful you are being?

You tackle hate by standing united against, condemning both left and right wing extremists.

If you do not have faith in the American system , when the person you wanted to did not get voted in, then you do your up-most to campaign and win people over for the best person to lead the nation next election. I am no fan of the Republicans, but its time Democrats take the share of the blame for this mess with Trump being elected, for backing the wrong person in Clinton.

All I see is the same shit happening, as when Obama was in, where the extreme right incited hate against him.

Now its the lefts turn to be idiots.

When in the end Trump will cause his own downfall.

I beginning to think that Yanks have to be the biggest sore losers in history, when they do not get their way. First with Obama, now with Trump.

Oh and for the record, these Nazi's and white supremacist groups have been around for a very long time in America, who caused violence and hate under Obama. So nobody resurrected them, they were always there creating hate and violence.

Lurker wrote:Conservative Republicans in the US have always been full of hate and disdain for anyone who disagrees with them. They can be the most vile animals on the planet. It's no surprise that they have resurrected the Nazis. hell, they even have God on their side. Fuck'em all!

Very good--and subtle--point, Lurker.  Conservatives don't begin with hate.  They begin in their common ideology, i.e. selfishness.  Inability to care for your fellow man.  But it does soon turn into an environment of hate.  Just this morning on GMA we saw that Best Buy had hiked the price of water in Houston, to $42.50/per case (normally 25-cents per bottle).  With people dying all around, what does that kind of selfishness yield?  Hate...right in your face.

This is why conservatism has earned the reputation of hating people.  It's not necessarily a direct attitude, but the odor is in the air all around them.  Of course...well deserved, too. Nazism is just selfishness run amok.

As the death toll rises, so will the price of body bags, coffins and funerals. Private enterprise in that line of work can be very lucrative in times of Natural disasters.

Original Quill wrote:

Lurker wrote:Conservative Republicans in the US have always been full of hate and disdain for anyone who disagrees with them. They can be the most vile animals on the planet. It's no surprise that they have resurrected the Nazis. hell, they even have God on their side. Fuck'em all!

Very good--and subtle--point, Lurker.  Conservatives don't begin with hate.  They begin in their common ideology, i.e. selfishness.  Inability to care for your fellow man.  But it does soon turn into an environment of hate.  Just this morning on GMA we saw that Best Buy had hiked the price of water in Houston, to $42.50/per case (normally 25-cents per bottle).  With people dying all around, what does that kind of selfishness yield?  Hate...right in your face.

This is why conservatism has earned the reputation of hating people.  It's not necessarily a direct attitude, but the odor is in the air all around them.  Of course...well deserved, too.  Nazism is just selfishness run amok.  

Really?

Seems you need a lesson in history again Quill

Reading the posts on here I would not have believed there were so many hate filled people posting, unbelievable.

nicko wrote:Reading the posts on here I would not have believed there were so many hate filled people posting,   unbelievable.

Are you surprised Nicko?

To me the problem in America starts in the schools. Where people lack an open education, whether it be a religious bias taught, or a leftist bias taught, or a right wing bias dependent on the region or teachers. They then instill a hate and fear of others politically or religiously. 

America is a powder keg ready to explode what with the hate peddled from all sides.

nicko wrote:Reading the posts on here I would not have believed there were so many hate filled people posting,   unbelievable.

You see what you guys started?  When the conservative side shows there is no room for conciliation and cooperation, the only option is to push back,  

I have repeatedly said: America is a racist nation.  This all started when the Democrats elected a black president.  The Republicans had a shit-fit and this is the result.  The Republicans had already started adopting racism with their Southern Strategy, and the enmity fell right into place.  Now we have Donald Trump cheering on the KKK, Neo-Nazis and white supremacists.

I believe the nation has to split up.  The south with it's racism will never change.  It's only good for Republicans to stoke the coals, and create events like Charleston and Charlottesville.  That's calculated murder.  Republicans have no business being in the trade of Murder, Inc.  Yet that's where they are headed.

We in the western states are ready, willing and financially able to go our own way.  We look forward to an amicable split.

Original Quill wrote:

nicko wrote:Reading the posts on here I would not have believed there were so many hate filled people posting,   unbelievable.

You see what you guys started?  When the conservative side shows there is no room for conciliation and cooperation, the only option is to push back,  

I have repeatedly said: America is a racist nation.  This all started when the Democrats elected a black president.  The Republicans had a shit-fit and this is the result.  The Republicans had already started adopting racism with their Southern Strategy, and the enmity fell right into place.  Now we have Donald Trump cheering on the KKK, Neo-Nazis and white supremacists.

I believe the nation has to split up.  The south with it's racism will never change.  It's only good for Republicans to stoke the coals, and create events like Charleston and Charlottesville.  That's calculated murder.  Republicans have no business being in the trade of Murder, Inc.  Yet that's where they are headed.

We in the western states are ready, willing and financially able to go our own way.  We look forward to an amicable split.

That is babble as its not a racist nation. Its like saying its Communist based off the violence of Antifa. Its that sort of hate filled crap that is used to inflame even more hate and to divide America. The US certainly has issues, more so with its religious right, but to claim its a racist nations when the vast majority is not. Shows people like you do nothing or the stability of that nation, but wish to sow the seeds of hate further.

If it was still a racist nation, you would never have had Obama become President, not just once but for two terms. Now I think his foreign policy was appalling, but domestically, I think he was one of the best Presidents.

The racism, Nazi's, white supremacist groups were around long before Obama came to power. Now have they jumped on the Trump bandwagon. Undoubtedly, but they are a small extreme group within the US. Most keyboard warrior virgins. There is certainly been a violent Far right presence committing terrorism and violence for decades. Which I think desperate people out to oust Trump, jump on the bandwagon, in order to strike fear. In the hope he will be ousted. When he will end up being impeached himself. Your whole argument is more about Trump, than it is about white Supremacist groups. So why not start being honest?

They have been trying to enforce their hate long before Obama came along. What has happened is there has been a swing in support to the right, mainly because of people like you continually bringing down your nation and sowing the seeds of hate. You offer nothing for unity, but seek to divide the nation further. When Americans should stand against all extremism.

Thorin wrote:That is babble as its not a racist nation.

Stop right there, mate.  Nobody's going to read any further after that obvious lie.  

We've all seen Charleston.  We've all seen Charlottesville.  We've all witnessed Treyvon Martin.  We've all been all over Ferguson, Missouri.  We morn for Sandra Bland, and want to know what happened.  We've read about slavery.  We've heard about the Civil War.  We've seen the vestiges of separate but equal...witnessed segregation first-hand.  We've seen Jim Crow laws.  We've witnessed voter suppression.  It's all old news.

Not a racist nation?  Bullshit.

Original Quill wrote:

Thorin wrote:That is babble as its not a racist nation.

Stop right there, mate.  Nobody's going to read any further after that obvious lie.  

We've all seen Charleston.  We've all seen Charlottesville.  We've all witnessed Treyvon Martin.  We've all been all over Ferguson, Missouri.  We morn for Sandra Bland, and want to know what happened.  We've read about slavery.  We've heard about the Civil War.  We've seen the vestiges of separate but equal...witnessed segregation first-hand.  We've seen Jim Crow laws.  We've witnessed voter suppression.  It's all old news.

Not a racist nation?  Bullshit.

Everyone can read the truth from me.

So now you have condemned all Americans, based off one event in one place in America, the other a security Guard, who caused the death of a child.

Guilt by association again.

Now apply your reasoning to islamic terrorism?

Does that mean all Muslims are thus terrorists or support by your thinking?

Take your time

I've realised why the name Neville keeps running through my head very time Didge posts his crap.



Neville Chamberlain, Nazi Appeaser who ended up realising that you have to fight.

sassy wrote:I've realised why the name Neville keeps running through my head very time Didge posts his crap.



Neville Chamberlain, Nazi Appeaser who ended up realising that you have to fight.

didge? you must be kidding,,,

it's scrat, not didge

sassy wrote:I've realised why the name Neville keeps running through my head very time Didge posts his crap.



Neville Chamberlain, Nazi Appeaser who ended up realising that you have to fight.

you astonish me with this one, sassy

considering how much knowledge of the nazi regime that didge has, how much he's studied it, how much he's always banged on and on about the dangers of such thinking,,,,

just because he's trying to show a bit of balance and fairness, and he's not one of the shrieking shrills that is constantly looking to find fault with everything damn thing trump says and does you think that your post fits?

no sassy, no way, not now, not ever

like i said,,,,it suits scrat's behaviour more than anyone else i know

sassy wrote:I've realised why the name Neville keeps running through my head very time Didge posts his crap.



Neville Chamberlain, Nazi Appeaser who ended up realising that you have to fight.

Ah Neville Chamberlain, who was the leader of Britain instrumentally in rearming the RAF. Who without his policy, we never would have won the Battle of Britain.

Though he did pander to the Nazis and should have taken a stronger line against them, when they marched their troops into the Rhineland, buts its very easy to say that in hindsight. When the great War was in living memory and people did not want to get dragged into another costly war.

How you equate this to beating up people who's views you do not like shows again that I have to explain how such violence did not stop Nazism. In fact such violence escalated in Germany, gaining support for the Nazis.

From 1918 saw communist groups attack any right leaning or centrist group in Germany. Which to combat this saws the rise of the Freikorps, former German soldiers. You see it was not Nazism that started the violence but the Communists with the Spartacus rising. You see yet again this led to the rise of Nazi Brownshirts on the streets, due to again the Far left violence. So now this escalation of violence saw people come to support the Nazi's more and more. So the Far left with its violence helped create Far right groups to counter its violence. Of course the Brownshirt attacked others groups as well like Jews, due to racial hatred. Leading to more and more violence when many innocents suffered. All the left extremist militants in Germany were funded by the Soviet Union. People though were seduced by Hitlers lies and hate and then it was too late They were going nowhere of course and only later capitalized on the Wall street Crash. So leftist violence did not to stem the rise of Hitler, in fact it aided his rise to power.

gelico wrote:

sassy wrote:I've realised why the name Neville keeps running through my head very time Didge posts his crap.



Neville Chamberlain, Nazi Appeaser who ended up realising that you have to fight.

you astonish me with this one, sassy

considering how much knowledge of the nazi regime that didge has, how much he's studied it, how much he's always banged on and on about the dangers of such thinking,,,,

just because he's trying to show a bit of balance and fairness, and he's not one of the shrieking shrills that is constantly looking to find fault with everything damn thing trump says and does you think that your post fits?

no sassy, no way, not now, not ever

like i said,,,,it suits scrat's behaviour more than anyone else i know

You have got to be joking. Nazism, wherever it is found, has to be fought against, not appeased. Otherwise we dishonour all those men that fought against and won.

Balance and fairness - bollocks. It's called appeasement to evil, and that is what he is doing. According to him, you don't fight it and stop it, you do what Chamberlain did.

sassy wrote:

gelico wrote:


you astonish me with this one, sassy

considering how much knowledge of the nazi regime that didge has, how much he's studied it, how much he's always banged on and on about the dangers of such thinking,,,,

just because he's trying to show a bit of balance and fairness, and he's not one of the shrieking shrills that is constantly looking to find fault with everything damn thing trump says and does you think that your post fits?

no sassy, no way, not now, not ever

like i said,,,,it suits scrat's behaviour more than anyone else i know

You have got to be joking.   Nazism, wherever it is found, has to be fought against, not appeased.   Otherwise we dishonour all those men that fought against and won.

Balance and fairness - bollocks.   It's called appeasement to evil, and that is what he is doing.   According to him, you don't fight it and stop it, you do what Chamberlain did.

So by your reasoning and the deaths of around hundred million due to Communism, we should fight communists where ever we find it then Sassy?

Its that appeasement to evil also, by being communist?

Anyway, you have not got a clue abaout history, so let me educate you yet again

Ah Neville Chamberlain, who was the leader of Britain instrumentally in rearming the RAF. Who without his policy, we never would have won the Battle of Britain.

Though he did pander to the Nazis and should have taken a stronger line against them, when they marched their troops into the Rhineland, buts its very easy to say that in hindsight. When the great War was in living memory and people did not want to get dragged into another costly war.

How you equate this to beating up people who's views you do not like shows again that I have to explain how such violence did not stop Nazism. In fact such violence escalated in Germany, gaining support for the Nazis.

From 1918 saw communist groups attack any right leaning or centrist group in Germany. Which to combat this saws the rise of the Freikorps, former German soldiers. You see it was not Nazism that started the violence but the Communists with the Spartacus rising. You see yet again this led to the rise of Nazi Brownshirts on the streets, due to again the Far left violence. So now this escalation of violence saw people come to support the Nazi's more and more. So the Far left with its violence helped create Far right groups to counter its violence. Of course the Brownshirt attacked others groups as well like Jews, due to racial hatred. Leading to more and more violence when many innocents suffered. All the left extremist militants in Germany were funded by the Soviet Union. People though were seduced by Hitlers lies and hate and then it was too late,

They were going nowhere of course the Nazi's with very few seats in 1928 and only later capitalized on the economic disaster from Wall street Crash 1929. So leftist violence did not to stem the rise of Hitler, in fact it aided his rise to power.

sassy wrote:

gelico wrote:


you astonish me with this one, sassy

considering how much knowledge of the nazi regime that didge has, how much he's studied it, how much he's always banged on and on about the dangers of such thinking,,,,

just because he's trying to show a bit of balance and fairness, and he's not one of the shrieking shrills that is constantly looking to find fault with everything damn thing trump says and does you think that your post fits?

no sassy, no way, not now, not ever

like i said,,,,it suits scrat's behaviour more than anyone else i know

You have got to be joking.   Nazism, wherever it is found, has to be fought against, not appeased.   Otherwise we dishonour all those men that fought against and won.

Balance and fairness - bollocks.   It's called appeasement to evil, and that is what he is doing.   According to him, you don't fight it and stop it, you do what Chamberlain did.

A very good comparison, Sass.  What didge is espousing in his concept of of freedom (of speech/assembly) is the laissez-faire, early market-freedom, that inevitably reduces to the kinds of totalitarian systems we saw in the mid-20th-century.  

Laissez-fiare freedom is unstable, and must constantly and vigilantly be monitored lest it collapses into it's opposite: oppression.  We saw this in economics, with the Robber Barons of the late 18th-century. They seized economic freedom to try to create it's opposite,  a monopoly in several markets.  In Charlottesville, we saw those who seize freedom to demonstrate, try to use it to murder and create mayhem.  Did the freedom that didge defends make Heather Heyer free?

Freedom is often, inevitably twisted into freedom to oppress.  If there isn't some check, it collapses into non-freedom, by those who use the very freedom to engineer the oppression.  I'm reminded of the saying associated with the Omphalos of Delphi: Nothing in Excess!  There is a good and evil side of everything, and didge argues for the evil side of freedom.  And the proof is in the pudding.  Look where he ends up...arguing to vouchsafe Nazi absolute authoritarianism.

Original Quill wrote:

sassy wrote:

You have got to be joking.   Nazism, wherever it is found, has to be fought against, not appeased.   Otherwise we dishonour all those men that fought against and won.

Balance and fairness - bollocks.   It's called appeasement to evil, and that is what he is doing.   According to him, you don't fight it and stop it, you do what Chamberlain did.

Freedom is often, inevitably twisted into freedom to oppress.  If there isn't some check, it collapses into non-freedom, by those who use the very freedom to engineer the oppression.  I'm reminded of the saying associated with the Omphalos of Delphi: Nothing in Excess!  There is a good and evil side of everything, and didge argues for the evil side of freedom.  And the proof is in the pudding.  Look where he ends up...arguing to vouchsafe Nazi absolute authoritarianism.

Who said anything about the freedom to oppress?

You realise that beating up people is oppressing them for their beliefs?

Which then renders your whole argument moot.

This is about Free Speech, not any view to freely beat up people simple because you do not like their views

You then invoke a further lie

I defend no side and stand against extremism no matter whether on the left or the right. My reasoning would be the same if Far Right extremists were beating up any innocent Communists, of which did happen at Charlottesville. Of which I pointed out to Tommy that there, the Far right started the violence and should be condemned. Though its also beyond dispute that antifa targeted innocent protesters also with violence.

This is all you can do Quil, lie, then lie more, and further lie to not take on my points but attempt to deligitimize me. It shows you cannot counter my points.

Well well well I am certainly starting to warm to Arnie for the first time ever.

He's gone up sky high in my estimation.

And no doubt earned himself thousands of new fans.

WTG the Texan Terminator. Be blessed xx. ❤ ❤

so bored of this shit

if i had £1 for every time Trump had condemned/disavowed the likes of kkk nazis etc I could have a first class holiday

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoXThCb8EZA

And I'm bored to hell of people listening to that twat trying to get himself out of trouble with words that mean nothing, when his actions say everything.

Trump's history of racism, abridged: A timeline

Some Republicans and conservative analysts professed surprise at President Trump's remarks about the domestic terror attack in Charlottesville, Virginia, in which he defended white supremacists. They shouldn't have been. As his personal and professional history shows, Trump has launched, built and sustained his political career on racist speech and action. Here is an (unfortunately abridged) timeline.
1926: Trump's father, Fred Trump, is arrested at a KKK rally in New York City

The Washington Post reported that in 1926, the New York Times noted that one Fred Trump was arrested in a brawl after a KKK march in which seven people were arrested, Trump Sr. being one of them. Asked about it in 2015 by the New York Times, Trump was evasive and untruthful, claiming his family didn't live at the address in the 1926 report when the census showed he did. Wrote the Times reporter: "Mr. Trump’s barrage of answers — his sudden denial of a fact he had moments before confirmed; his repeatedly noting that no charges were filed against his father in connection with the incident he had just repeatedly denied; and his denigration of the news organization that brought the incident to light as a “little website” — shows his pasta-against-the-wall approach to beating down inconvenient story lines."
1973: Discriminatory housing

The Justice Department sued Trump's family real-estate business, alleging the Trumps practiced racial discrimination against black people looking to rent apartments. Donald Trump indignantly sued the Justice Department for $100 million. The Trumps then settled the original lawsuit with the Justice Department without admitting wrongdoing. Three years later, the Justice Department sued again, claiming the Trumps told black applicants that vacant apartments were not available to them.
1989: Central Park Five

Trump took out a full-page ad demanding the execution of five boys of color accused of raping a jogger in Central Park. He told CNN: "Of course I hate these people, and let's all hate these people. Maybe hate is what we need if we're gonna get something done." The five boys were proven innocent. In 2016, Trump stood by his actions.
2010s: Birtherism

Trump came to political prominence by insisting that President Obama was born in Kenya and thus was not a legitimate president of the United States. In 2011, he claimed to have sent people to Hawaii to investigate: "I have people there who cannot believe what they're finding." He demanded Obama's birth certificate. Obama produced the short form version of the document, and Trump says that wasn't enough. Obama produced the long form. In 2016 on CNN, Trump said, "I don't talk about it. You know why I don't talk about it? Because once I talk about it, that's all they want to write about. So I don't ever talk about it." The press obeyed.
2016: Calling Mexicans rapists

Compounding on the xenophobia stirred up by birtherism, Trump launched his official campaign calling Mexicans “criminals” and “rapists.” He later called them "bad hombres."
2016: Judge Curiel

Trump said that Judge Gonzalo Curiel could not hear the fraud case filed against Trump University. “He’s a Mexican,” Trump told CNN. “We’re building a wall between here and Mexico. The answer is, he is giving us very unfair rulings — rulings that people can’t even believe.”

Curiel was born in Indiana. As a prosecutor in the '90s, he aggressively went after Mexican drug cartels.
2016: Promising to build a wall on the Southern border

One of Trump's signature campaign promises was to build a "big, beautiful" wall on the U.S. border and have Mexico pay for it. The current and former presidents of Mexico said no way, no day.
2016: Feuding with Khizr Khan's parents

At the Democratic National Convention in 2016, the parents of a Muslim U.S. soldier who was killed in battle spoke about how he sacrificed his life for his country. His father held up the Constitution to chastise Trump for his xenophobia. Trump immediately went to battle, saying of Mrs. Khan in an ABC News interview, “If you look at his wife, she was standing there. She had nothing to say. She probably, maybe she wasn’t allowed to have anything to say. You tell me.” Mrs. Khan told the Washington Post she was unable to speak before a television audience of millions because of her grief.
2017: Muslim ban

Soon after taking office, Trump banned citizens of seven majority-Muslim countries from entering the U.S. People with legitimate U.S. visas were blocked at airport customs, leading to loud protests nationwide. Circuit courts struck down the ban several times before the Supreme Court ruled to allow a watered-down version temporarily over the summer.
2017: Charlottesville

Trump claimed that "many sides" were responsible for the violence following a white-supremacist rally that resulted in the death of 32-year-old Heather Heyer after a neo-Nazi rammed a crowd of protesters with his car. Two days later, he said there were "many fine people" on that side.
2017: Joe Arpaio

Mere hours after Trump's universally condemned first speech about Charlottesville, it was reported that he is mulling a pardon for Joe Arpaio, a sheriff who the Justice Department found was guilty of the "worst case of racial profiling in history," illegally detaining Mexicans even after the courts told him to stop. He was found guilty of criminal contempt of court.

AND THEN HE WENT AND DID IT.

http://www.metro.us/president-trump/trump-racism-history-abridged-timeline


Actions speak so much louder than words.

When nazis held a "Pro-America" rally in Madison Square Garden in 1939, the US press focused on the "violent" "anti-nazi" protesters







It's a amazing how many people pull the wool over their own eyes and say, 'it's not the same' because they can't face the bloody truth or learn from experience.

sassy wrote:When nazis held a "Pro-America" rally in Madison Square Garden in 1939, the US press focused on the "violent" "anti-nazi" protesters


It's a amazing how many people pull the wool over their own eyes and say, 'it's not the same' because they can't face the bloody truth or learn from experience.

Well or many reasons its not the same, being as many of the white supremacist groups are not Nazis.
Its just your ignorance that clubs them, together.

All have different ideologies and beliefs, all appalling, but its your ignorance of history that is even worse.

Again you seem to think violence against anything right of Stalin is the best course of action. Of which the communists did in Germany WW2 and achieved nothing but an escalation of violence in Germany. It failed to achieve stopping the Nazi's rise to power. 

Though the above is an excellent example of why have not a clue.

The above is the German American Bund, who never achieved more than 10,000 members, more than any Nazi organisation today. No violence was used to stop them, and they simple never amounted to anything. Here is a point in history where they actually had training camps and faded away, even having Nazi Germany cut ties with them. So Sassy care to explain how it was not violent counter protests stop them? Do you understand that again back then as now, nobody likes the Nazi's?

Do you understand that and how they will never gain power?

I mean what gets me, is that there has always been a problem of the Far Right in America, mainly from the religious right as well, that has caused terrorism for years in the US, comparable to Islamic terrorism in the number of attacks, but not death toll, the Islamic death toll massively higher. This has gone on for years and you only now think its a problem, when it has been for years? Have you been in hibernation?

You say to fight Nazi's, yet never year you say fight Islamic extremism. The later being a greater threat to American that American Nazism? 

Why is that?

The reality is America has always combated Nazism and white supremacy extremely well, and why it has amounted to nothing more than small fringe group in America.

https://www.adl.org/education/resources/profiles/national-socialist-movement

So your view to use as an excuse for communists to basically attack anyone, their views are against, which is what Antifa is. As they attack and shut down anything they do not like. As they are anti-secular, anti-democratic and anti-liberal and you want to join ranks with them? They are equivalent in hate to the white supremacist groups in American.

Its your ignorance on this, where I condemn both sides. You some pathetic ignoramus like you, that wants to instigate a civil war, all the way from the UK. When what the US needs now is unity, not more and more violence from the Far left and Far Right. You will never learn from history and your example shows you never have as again you fail to even know history..

You combat the Far Right, with what has always been done, to allow themselves to show themselves up as hateful idiots. To reason against their hate and stand in unity against them. They don't need to be made to look the victims, as they will. If Far left idiots beat them up at protests. You stupidly do not see that you provide a victim status for them to play off. Which they will capitalize on.

This is the point your hero Noam Chomsky was talking about, when Antifa is a gift to the right. It also shows is he understands history well and where the last time there were pitched battles constantly, it was the left that lost and that Nazi's rose to power. 

You combat hate with reason, not violence in a secular society. I mean have you learnt nothing from Martin Luther King?

Did he fight for Civil rights using violence?

No and yet at every-turn African Americans were attacked at rallies and protests with countless violence.

Did that stop Martin Luther King?

No

Did even after he was killed, stop the momentum of Civil rights?

No

You see how utterly clueless you are?

In other words the White Supremacists will never attain power without the support of the American people and the vast majority are against White supremacy.

More arrogant and bigotted bullshite from doddery ol' Thorin...

Falsely claiming that some people on here are bundling all right-wing extremists together..

When it's plainly clear that Dodge is the one guilty of over-generalising, regularly and erroneously tagging anybody to the left of Genghis Khan as "communist" and "Marxist"  !

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

More arrogant and bigotted bullshite from doddery ol' Thorin...

Falsely claiming that some people on here are bundling all right-wing extremists together..

When it's plainly clear that Dodge is the one guilty of over-generalising, regularly and erroneously tagging anybody to the left of Genghis Khan as "communist" and "Marxist"  !

Am I?

Which shows again how little you understand Antifa

I do not tag anyone on the left that way, I do with antifa and generally those who are regressive

Do I class Ben that way? Eilzel?

Of course not

So yet again poor Wolf lies again

I see as per usual you could not counter a single point and yet again come back with gibberish

Anything else?

No?

Did not think so

Original Quill wrote:

Thorin wrote:That is babble as its not a racist nation.

Stop right there, mate.  Nobody's going to read any further after that obvious lie.  

We've all seen Charleston.  We've all seen Charlottesville.  We've all witnessed Treyvon Martin.  We've all been all over Ferguson, Missouri.  We morn for Sandra Bland, and want to know what happened.  We've read about slavery.  We've heard about the Civil War.  We've seen the vestiges of separate but equal...witnessed segregation first-hand.  We've seen Jim Crow laws.  We've witnessed voter suppression.  It's all old news.

Not a racist nation?  Bullshit.

Well said, Quill. On that fateful day in Charlotesville a jewish group praying in a synagogue had to barricade themselves in cos these armed nazis and kkk's were parading up and down in the street outside the front door of the synagogue. A cop came and sneaked the jews out of the back door and they all had to make their way home via backstreets and alleyways, fearfully. In 2017?? Seriously??


The people who have spoken out against Trump include distinguished university professors, respected authors,  experienced journalists, and some of his own republican people. The weasel words he reads off teleprompters convince very few people, clearly.

sassy wrote:And I'm bored to hell of people listening to that twat trying to get himself out of trouble with words that mean nothing, when his actions say everything.

BRILLIANT!!

Criticising Herr Donald Drumpf isn't "boring"  or "shrill" or ''foolish''.  It is valid.
I will always criticise him. Try stopping me lol.

seen lots of footage of the devestation of harvey and everyone working together,,,,all ages, all colours, black helping white, white helping black - no racism there. it's a beautiful thing when people come together in times of disaster

gelico wrote:

seen lots of footage of the devestation of harvey and everyone working together,,,,all ages, all colours, black helping white, white helping black - no racism there.  it's a beautiful thing when people come together in times of disaster

If only a disaster wasn't necessary!

Ben Reilly wrote:

gelico wrote:

seen lots of footage of the devestation of harvey and everyone working together,,,,all ages, all colours, black helping white, white helping black - no racism there.  it's a beautiful thing when people come together in times of disaster

If only a disaster wasn't necessary!

It does not require a disaster either.

You simply are just concentrating and reading mainly all the bad news in the media. As its bad news that sells.

If you actually looked further than the main media. You will see plenty off people that help others out all the time. It simple and sadly does not make the main news

https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/

Thorin wrote:

Ben Reilly wrote:

If only a disaster wasn't necessary!

It does not require a disaster either.

You simply are just concentrating and reading mainly all the bad news in the media. As its bad news that sells.

And thank god it does. It's the bad news we want to hear about. Good news probably won't kill us...bad news mostly likely will, eventually.

Incidentally, good news comes in like a lion. Bad news comes in incrementally, and last longer. This is Harris County, right? Google poor Sandra Bland, murdered in Harris County, by Harris County officials...that's the real, every-day story behind Harris County.

Original Quill wrote:

Thorin wrote:


It does not require a disaster either.

You simply are just concentrating and reading mainly all the bad news in the media. As its bad news that sells.

And thank god it does.  It's the bad news we want to hear about.  Good news probably won't kill us...bad news mostly likely will, eventually.

Incidentally, good news comes in like a lion.  Bad news comes in incrementally, and last longer.  This is Harris County, right?  Google poor Sandra Bland, murdered in Harris County, by Harris County officials...that's the real, every-day story behind Harris County.

Well if you live only by bad news, then you are then emphatically unhappy, pessimistic and fearful.

Bad news will only effect you as long as you allow it to effect your emotions.

If you only look to the bad in Harris country, then you miss where the majority actually do good, and hence why you are then constantly led by a confirmation bias.

Original Quill wrote:

Thorin wrote:


It does not require a disaster either.

You simply are just concentrating and reading mainly all the bad news in the media. As its bad news that sells.

And thank god it does.  It's the bad news we want to hear about.  Good news probably won't kill us...bad news mostly likely will, eventually.

Incidentally, good news comes in like a lion.  Bad news comes in incrementally, and last longer.  This is Harris County, right?  Google poor Sandra Bland, murdered in Harris County, by Harris County officials...that's the real, every-day story behind Harris County.

There's no evidence that she was murdered.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

And thank god it does.  It's the bad news we want to hear about.  Good news probably won't kill us...bad news mostly likely will, eventually.

Incidentally, good news comes in like a lion.  Bad news comes in incrementally, and last longer.  This is Harris County, right?  Google poor Sandra Bland, murdered in Harris County, by Harris County officials...that's the real, every-day story behind Harris County.

There's no evidence that she was murdered.

Evidence?  Whose been looking for evidence?  The whole point of southern justice is those in charge are not held to account.  That's how white supremacy gets away with it, being in the minority.

We do know this:

CNN wrote:Sandra Bland's family settles for $1.9M in wrongful death suit

(CNN)Sandra Bland's family has reached a $1.9 million settlement in a wrongful death lawsuit -- an agreement that has brought "joy" after a year of grief, Bland's mother said.

The settlement includes compensation for Bland's death in custody as well as several changes to jail procedures. Bland was found dead in her jail cell three days after she was pulled over for failing to use her turn signal in July 2015.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

There's no evidence that she was murdered.

Evidence?  Whose been looking for evidence?  The whole point of southern justice is those in charge are not held to account.  That's how white supremacy gets away with it, being in the minority.

We do know this:

CNN wrote:Sandra Bland's family settles for $1.9M in wrongful death suit

(CNN)Sandra Bland's family has reached a $1.9 million settlement in a wrongful death lawsuit -- an agreement that has brought "joy" after a year of grief, Bland's mother said.

The settlement includes compensation for Bland's death in custody as well as several changes to jail procedures. Bland was found dead in her jail cell three days after she was pulled over for failing to use her turn signal in July 2015.

You usually have to have evidence before you accuse anyone of murder, yes? You should know this if you're a real lawyer, and you could be libelling a lot of people here.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Evidence?  Whose been looking for evidence?  The whole point of southern justice is those in charge are not held to account.  That's how white supremacy gets away with it, being in the minority.

We do know this:

You usually have to have evidence before you accuse anyone of murder, yes? You should know this if you're a real lawyer, and you could be libelling a lot of people here.

Do you deny it? Pray tell...why spend so much money if it's all liable? Foolish Texans, eh?

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

You usually have to have evidence before you accuse anyone of murder, yes? You should know this if you're a real lawyer, and you could be libelling a lot of people here.

Do you deny it?  Pray tell...why spend so much money if it's all liable?  Foolish Texans, eh?

Do I deny what? That she was murdered? Like I said, there's no evidence that she was, so yes I probably do. Do you have any evidence?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Do you deny it?  Pray tell...why spend so much money if it's all liable?  Foolish Texans, eh?

Do I deny what? That she was murdered? Like I said, there's no evidence that she was, so yes I probably do. Do you have any evidence?

The circumstantial evidence that they paid $1.9-million. There must have been some powerful evidence inside that case that they didn't want the public to see.