London Pride Makes Feelings About DUP Abundantly Clear, But not Any Religious belief That Oppresses Them

Tens of thousands of people took to the streets of the capital today to celebrate London Pride. A joyous carnival atmosphere prevailed, 50 years after homosexuality was decriminalised in the UK. But there were some negative sentiments, reserved mainly for the Democratic Unionist Party, now in a controversial Parliamentary pact with the Tories.

Most visible was this absolutely giant balloon-adorned banner.




http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/london-pride-dup_uk_59612661e4b0d5b458eacfd5?utm_hp_ref=uk


Now i completely agree with their take on the DUP as they are anti-homosexual, but what would happen if they said the same of any other groups that hold anti-homosexual beliefs?

For example

"Fuck Christianity"

"Fuck Islam"

"Fuck Judaism"

''If you're religion says that I'm unworthy then fuck your religion''

gelico wrote:
''If you're religion says that I'm unworthy then fuck your religion''

Hi Gelico

Where was that from?

Twitter or the Pride march?

Thorin wrote:

gelico wrote:
''If you're religion says that I'm unworthy then fuck your religion''

Hi Gelico

Where was that from?

Twitter or the march?

hi didge

it wasn't from anywhere i just read your post and thought rather than saying fuck any religion specifically, it might be more of a statement to say that any religion that says i'm less than you does in no way deserve any respect from me,,,,kind of thing

all i'm saying is if i were gay and went on apride march and had a banner that's probably what i would write

gelico wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Hi Gelico

Where was that from?

Twitter or the march?

hi didge

it wasn't from anywhere i just read your post and thought rather than saying fuck any religion specifically, it might be more of a statement to say that any religion that says i'm less than you does in no way deserve any respect from me,,,,kind of thing

all i'm saying is if i were gay and went on apride march and had a banner that's probably what i would write

Glad to have you on board gelico by the way

Actually that is a very diplomatic way of saying get stuffed to religions that oppress people, without actually being specific to anyone religion. However does that not then hold accountable those specifically anti-homosexual and just place a blanket view on religions themselves on this issue?

I understand your point and its a really good point, but in my opinion, should we not point out the beliefs that are specifically prejudice?

Thorin wrote:

gelico wrote:

hi didge

it wasn't from anywhere i just read your post and thought rather than saying fuck any religion specifically, it might be more of a statement to say that any religion that says i'm less than you does in no way deserve any respect from me,,,,kind of thing

all i'm saying is if i were gay and went on apride march and had a banner that's probably what i would write

Glad to have you on board gelico by the way

Actually that is a very diplomatic way of saying get stuffed to religions that oppress people, without actually being specific to anyone religion. However does that not then hold accountable those specifically anti-homosexual and just place a blanket view on religions themselves on this issue?

I understand your point and its a really good point, but in my opinion, should we not point out the beliefs that are specifically prejudice?

yes ok good point. not all anti gay twats are religious twats

so what about

''If you think I'm unworthy then fuck you
If your religion thinks I'm unworthy
then fuck your religion''


tee hee that's a lot to try and write 'we're gonna need a bigger banner'

gelico wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Glad to have you on board gelico by the way

Actually that is a very diplomatic way of saying get stuffed to religions that oppress people, without actually being specific to anyone religion. However does that not then hold accountable those specifically anti-homosexual and just place a blanket view on religions themselves on this issue?

I understand your point and its a really good point, but in my opinion, should we not point out the beliefs that are specifically prejudice?

yes ok good point.  not all anti gay twats are religious twats

so what about

''If you think I'm unworthy then fuck you
If your religion thinks I'm unworthy
then fuck your religion''


tee hee that's a lot to try and write  'we're gonna need a bigger banner'

lol that is a lot to write.

Again not every DUP supporter is anti-homosexual and its more about targeting the belief against homosexuals.

This is why I have no issue with someone here targeting the DUP based on its policies and beliefs.

My main point is that you would never really see people make the same banner against a specific religion on this with a march

I mean can you imagine the outcry if there was such a banner saying "Fuck Islam/Christianity/Judaism"?

Thorin wrote:

gelico wrote:


yes ok good point.  not all anti gay twats are religious twats

so what about

''If you think I'm unworthy then fuck you
If your religion thinks I'm unworthy
then fuck your religion''


tee hee that's a lot to try and write  'we're gonna need a bigger banner'

lol that is a lot to write.

Again not every DUP supporter is anti-homosexual and its more about targeting the belief against homosexuals.

This is why I have no issue with someone here targeting the DUP based on its policies and beliefs.

My main point is that you would never really see people make the same banner against a specific religion on this with a march

I mean can you imagine the outcry if there was such a banner saying "Fuck Islam/Christianity/Judaism"?

thuffering thocrateeth


dont bear thinking about does it


have to go now didge, nice to get back in touch

There wouldn't be any outcry in general. However, I know at least one gay person who is religious, so I guess there are others, and the people carrying banners don't want to offend gay people.

Raggamuffin wrote:There wouldn't be any outcry in general. However, I know at least one gay person who is religious, so I guess there are others, and the people carrying banners don't want to offend gay people.

I think there is quite a few gay people who are religious or believe in a deity etc.

My main point is that those carrying this DUP banner, would hardly have one against a specific religion and I do find that a tad hypocritical, if you get my meaning?

gelico wrote:

Thorin wrote:

lol that is a lot to write.

Again not every DUP supporter is anti-homosexual and its more about targeting the belief against homosexuals.

This is why I have no issue with someone here targeting the DUP based on its policies and beliefs.

My main point is that you would never really see people make the same banner against a specific religion on this with a march

I mean can you imagine the outcry if there was such a banner saying "Fuck Islam/Christianity/Judaism"?

thuffering thocrateeth


dont bear thinking about does it


have to go now didge, nice to get back in touch

Have a good evening Gelico, and again good to have you back

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:There wouldn't be any outcry in general. However, I know at least one gay person who is religious, so I guess there are others, and the people carrying banners don't want to offend gay people.

I think there is quite a few gay people who are religious or believe in a deity etc.

My main point is that those carrying this DUP banner, would hardly have one against a specific religion and I do find that a tad hypocritical, if you get my meaning?

I'm surprised they don't tbh. At least one gay person on these forums never fails to blame all Christians for "homophobia".

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


I think there is quite a few gay people who are religious or believe in a deity etc.

My main point is that those carrying this DUP banner, would hardly have one against a specific religion and I do find that a tad hypocritical, if you get my meaning?

I'm surprised they don't tbh. At least one gay person on these forums never fails to blame all Christians for "homophobia".

That is because he fails to be critical of the belief itself. Many Christians today are very supportive of gay rights. As many Christians have adapted their faiths with secularism.

why do women always seem to think getting their baps out somehow makes the point

can you spot the irony.

if not, palestinian flag at pride march. Homosexuality carries death sentence in gaza.


http://www.weeklystandard.com/would-gays-be-executed-or-imprisoned-by-a-palestinian-state/article/593540

The Devil, You Know wrote:why do women always seem to think getting their baps out somehow makes the point

I imagine if the EDL had carried a similar banner the left, along with Muslims, would be baying for blood. I am guessing that Muslims will be baying anyway

Sin Fen is also very angry over the DUP's attitude to LGBT issues. There will be no peace between the two parties until this is resolved.

(The other main sticking point between the two parties is protection of the Irish language.)

The MAY-DUP alliance has some rocky days ahead!

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:There wouldn't be any outcry in general. However, I know at least one gay person who is religious, so I guess there are others, and the people carrying banners don't want to offend gay people.

I think there is quite a few gay people who are religious or believe in a deity etc.

My main point is that those carrying this DUP banner, would hardly have one against a specific religion and I do find that a tad hypocritical, if you get my meaning?

I don't think it's hypocritical. There might be a number of reasons they would choose that banner and not a religious one.

-Political parties are more impersonal than a religious group.
-Religions tend to be made up of millions of people, and not all would agree with interpretations that say their religion is homophobic (I would say they are but believers like to interpret to suit, whether for or against).
-They might see a political group as a more real threat to their rights in this country (DUP might affect gay rights through politics, religious groups have less power there).

^Gelico- nice to see you here
I actually like your suggestion. It is a nice way of evading the 'don't say my religion is homophobic' argument

Eilzel wrote:

Thorin wrote:


I think there is quite a few gay people who are religious or believe in a deity etc.

My main point is that those carrying this DUP banner, would hardly have one against a specific religion and I do find that a tad hypocritical, if you get my meaning?

I don't think it's hypocritical. There might be a number of reasons they would choose that banner and not a religious one.

-Political parties are more impersonal than a religious group.
-Religions tend to be made up of millions of people, and not all would agree with interpretations that say their religion is homophobic (I would say they are but believers like to interpret to suit, whether for or against).
-They might see a political group as a more real threat to their rights in this country (DUP might affect gay rights through politics, religious groups have less power there).

^Gelico- nice to see you here
I actually like your suggestion. It is a nice way of evading the 'don't say my religion is homophobic' argument

Wow, what further proof of ostrich parasitic syndrome.

Well being the fact that the DUP is not going to change any rights on homosexuality as they are a regional party. And where does the DUP gets its anti-homosexual beliefs? That is right, Christianity. Yet religious beliefs hold sway and are what is used to deny homosexuals rights in many countries. So to protest some insignificant political party. Whilst ignoring the plight of homosexuals globally due to religious beliefs. Shows what is wrong with some on the political left. In that they are too afraid to be honest to say what they think of religion. That they have no problems with upsetting the sensitivities of the DUP and its supporters and rightly so, but when it comes to any religious belief. We suddenly see a deafening silence.

Thorin wrote:Tens of thousands of people took to the streets of the capital today to celebrate London Pride. A joyous carnival atmosphere prevailed, 50 years after homosexuality was decriminalised in the UK. But there were some negative sentiments, reserved mainly for the Democratic Unionist Party, now in a controversial Parliamentary pact with the Tories.

Most visible was this absolutely giant balloon-adorned banner.




http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/london-pride-dup_uk_59612661e4b0d5b458eacfd5?utm_hp_ref=uk


Now i completely agree with their take on the DUP as they are anti-homosexual, but what would happen if they said the same of any other groups that hold anti-homosexual beliefs?

For example

"Fuck Christianity"

"Fuck Islam"

"Fuck Judaism"

The other groups don't have any say in how they live their lives though Thor....not unless they are of that religion, and they always have the free will to leave it if they so wish.
Unfortunately now May has bribed the DUP to support her government, the DUP could possibly have more influence in the way homosexuals are treated....at the very least they 'disapprove' of them..

Syl wrote:

Thorin wrote:Tens of thousands of people took to the streets of the capital today to celebrate London Pride. A joyous carnival atmosphere prevailed, 50 years after homosexuality was decriminalised in the UK. But there were some negative sentiments, reserved mainly for the Democratic Unionist Party, now in a controversial Parliamentary pact with the Tories.

Most visible was this absolutely giant balloon-adorned banner.




http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/london-pride-dup_uk_59612661e4b0d5b458eacfd5?utm_hp_ref=uk


Now i completely agree with their take on the DUP as they are anti-homosexual, but what would happen if they said the same of any other groups that hold anti-homosexual beliefs?

For example

"Fuck Christianity"

"Fuck Islam"

"Fuck Judaism"

The other groups don't have any say in how they live their lives though Thor....not unless they are of that religion, and they always have the free will to leave it if they so wish.
Unfortunately now May has bribed the DUP to support her government, the DUP could possibly have more influence in the way homosexuals are treated....at the very least they 'disapprove' of them..

How are 10 MP's going to sway the other 600 plus on anything to do with laws on homosexuality.
Lets take a reality check here as they are again a regional party.  Their views come from religion and its these religious beliefs that effect homosexuals world wide. The reality is even in the US at present laws are coming in that effect LGTB rights and again they stem from religious beliefs. So to protest a insignificant party when the problem is religious beliefs, shows the absurdity of the protesting here. As again people are afraid to say something and speak out on religious due to the insensitivity of their believers.

Thorin wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Thorin wrote:


I think there is quite a few gay people who are religious or believe in a deity etc.

My main point is that those carrying this DUP banner, would hardly have one against a specific religion and I do find that a tad hypocritical, if you get my meaning?

I don't think it's hypocritical. There might be a number of reasons they would choose that banner and not a religious one.

-Political parties are more impersonal than a religious group.
-Religions tend to be made up of millions of people, and not all would agree with interpretations that say their religion is homophobic (I would say they are but believers like to interpret to suit, whether for or against).
-They might see a political group as a more real threat to their rights in this country (DUP might affect gay rights through politics, religious groups have less power there).

^Gelico- nice to see you here
I actually like your suggestion. It is a nice way of evading the 'don't say my religion is homophobic' argument

Wow, what further proof of ostrich parasitic syndrome.

Well being the fact that the DUP is not going to change any rights on homosexuality as they are a regional party. And where does the DUP gets its anti-homosexual beliefs? That is right, Christianity. Yet religious beliefs hold sway and are what is used to deny homosexuals rights in many countries. So to protest some insignificant political party. Whilst ignoring the plight of homosexuals globally due to religious beliefs. Shows what is wrong with some on the political left. In that they are too afraid to be honest to say what they think of religion. That they have no problems with upsetting the sensitivities of the DUP and its supporters and rightly so, but when it comes to any religious belief. We suddenly see a deafening silence.

I love how you ignore 8 years of conversations we have had on the subject of religion for the sake of having a go at the left and bringing up your topic of the month (ostrich whatever).

You know my feelings toward all religions, especially Islam and Christianity- I've been pretty clear in my opposition to both since I first joined Sky in 2010.
I am more aware than anyone of the deplorable treatment of gay people all over the world.

BUT, the DUP may have a say in furthering gay rights by opposing any changes the Tory govt might seek to make. In fairness that might be nothing. But the DUP still have more sway than a single religious group in the UK.

You made a point about those people will the sign being hypocritical. It wasn't my sign. I was just explaining their likely reasoning.

But you do love to start a fight don't you lol

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:

The other groups don't have any say in how they live their lives though Thor....not unless they are of that religion, and they always have the free will to leave it if they so wish.
Unfortunately now May has bribed the DUP to support her government, the DUP could possibly have more influence in the way homosexuals are treated....at the very least they 'disapprove' of them..

How are 10 MP's going to sway the other 600 plus on anything to do with laws on homosexuality.
Lets take a reality check here as they are again a regional party.  Their views come from religion and its these religious beliefs that effect homosexuals world wide. The reality is even in the US at present laws are coming in that effect LGTB rights and again they stem from religious beliefs. So to protest a insignificant party when the problem is religious beliefs, shows the absurdity of the protesting here. As again people are afraid to say something and speak out on religious due to the insensitivity of their believers.

They may only form a small part of the government, but they had enough clout to demand a billion quid in order to support the cons....so who knows what else they will have a say in?

In any case.....that's the way the banner writers felt at the time, and I don't know why they didn't include religious groups who disapprove.

Eilzel wrote:
I love how you ignore 8 years of conversations we have had on the subject of religion for the sake of having a go at the left and bringing up your topic of the month (ostrich whatever).

Thorin wrote:See there you have it again, insensitivity and this is just on political beliefs, with the left and not religious

You know my feelings toward all religions, especially Islam and Christianity- I've been pretty clear in my opposition to both since I first joined Sky in 2010.
I am more aware than anyone of the deplorable treatment of gay people all over the world.

Thorin wrote:And yet you are to gutless to say that those marching should in reality also say "fuck Islam"
or "Fuck Christianity". The problem stems from religions and you are not going to change problems, by treading on egg shells around bad beliefs

BUT, the DUP may have a say in furthering gay rights by opposing any changes the Tory govt might seek to make. In fairness that might be nothing. But the DUP still have more sway than a single religious group in the UK.

Thorin wrote:So you think 10 MP's are going to be able to persuade all the Tories to vote against gay rights? You then claim they have more sway when half the Muslims in this country believe homosexuals should be criminally prosecuted and go to jail. That is around 1.5 million Muslims. You think the DUP holds more sway that that?

You made a point about those people will the sign being hypocritical. It wasn't my sign. I was just explaining their likely reasoning.

Thorin wrote:They are being hypocrites and the DUP are anti-homosexual due to Christian beliefs

But you do love to start a fight don't you lol

How am i starting a fight?
Just because you at times show all the hallmarks of Ostrich parasitic syndrome, in my opinion. Is that not more you being over sensitive?
I never reacted to Zack saying

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

I had to interrupt fucking your mother for this. My back is already hurting from digging that bitch up.

So a fight can only occur when two people argue.
I do not see us having a right here, do you?

Syl wrote:

Thorin wrote:


How are 10 MP's going to sway the other 600 plus on anything to do with laws on homosexuality.
Lets take a reality check here as they are again a regional party.  Their views come from religion and its these religious beliefs that effect homosexuals world wide. The reality is even in the US at present laws are coming in that effect LGTB rights and again they stem from religious beliefs. So to protest a insignificant party when the problem is religious beliefs, shows the absurdity of the protesting here. As again people are afraid to say something and speak out on religious due to the insensitivity of their believers.

They may only form a small part of the government, but they had enough clout to demand a billion quid in order to support the cons....so who knows what else they will have a say in?

In any case.....that's the way the banner writers felt at the time, and I don't know why they didn't include religious groups who disapprove.

Gaining extra money is one thing, being able to pass laws, that require MP's voting is another thing altogether.

Thorin wrote:

Eilzel wrote:
I love how you ignore 8 years of conversations we have had on the subject of religion for the sake of having a go at the left and bringing up your topic of the month (ostrich whatever).

Thorin wrote:See there you have it again, insensitivity and this is just on political beliefs, with the left and not religious

You know my feelings toward all religions, especially Islam and Christianity- I've been pretty clear in my opposition to both since I first joined Sky in 2010.
I am more aware than anyone of the deplorable treatment of gay people all over the world.

Thorin wrote:And yet you are to gutless to say that those marching should in reality also say "fuck Islam"
or "Fuck Christianity". The problem stems from religions and you are not going to change problems, by treading on egg shells around bad beliefs

BUT, the DUP may have a say in furthering gay rights by opposing any changes the Tory govt might seek to make. In fairness that might be nothing. But the DUP still have more sway than a single religious group in the UK.

Thorin wrote:So you think 10 MP's are going to be able to persuade all the Tories to vote against gay rights? You then claim they have more sway when half the Muslims in this country believe homosexuals should be criminally prosecuted and go to jail. That is around 1.5 million Muslims. You think the DUP holds more sway that that?

You made a point about those people will the sign being hypocritical. It wasn't my sign. I was just explaining their likely reasoning.

Thorin wrote:They are being hypocrites and the DUP are anti-homosexual due to Christian beliefs

But you do love to start a fight don't you lol

How am i starting a fight?
Just because you at times show all the hallmarks of Ostrich parasitic syndrome, in my opinion. Is that not more you being over sensitive?
I never reacted to Zack saying

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

I had to interrupt fucking your mother for this. My back is already hurting from digging that bitch up.

So a fight can only occur when two people argue.
I do not see us having a right here, do you?

I'm not being sensitive. But you calling me out on something I didn't do was totally pointless and suggests wanted to argue where there is no need. As to your points.

1. You are implying I'm not critical of religions. That's BS and you know it.

2. I'm not gutless for not saying they should have a sign. A sign is small didge. As mentioned, Christianity or Islam has NO SAY in political legislation in the UK. The DUP might. BIG difference.

3. You don't know how partnerships like this work do you? It isn't just votes. If the Tories want the DUP to back them on something then the DUP can pressure the Tories to drop any future legislation to improve gay rights. If the Tories don't do as the DUP want, then the DUP may stop backing the Tories in future votes. We might never even know but backroom politics is a part of agreements like this. It is hypothetical, but still a million times more leeway than religious groups have.

4. You seem to think religion as important as political groups in the modern UK. What world is this I'm not aware of? Religion and politics are separate in the UK for good reason. The DUP have influence, Muslims and Christians have little. Thank god

Eilzel wrote:

I'm not being sensitive. But you calling me out on something I didn't do was totally pointless and suggests wanted to argue where there is no need. As to your points.

Thorin wrote:Which means you are then a tad paranoid, As this is a debate forum, only if you are over sensitive to something said would you perceive it as an argument

1. You are implying I'm not critical of religions. That's BS and you know it.

Thorin wrote:Well, then you should agree with me that they should also have banners saying Fuck you to religions also? I mean why is it acceptable to say Fuck you to one ideological group and not another? Not all DUP supporters are anti-homosexual, the same as any religious group

2. I'm not gutless for not saying they should have a sign. A sign is small didge. As mentioned, Christianity or Islam has NO SAY in political legislation in the UK. The DUP might. BIG difference.

Thorin wrote:Well as seen here, this one sign was able to draw the media to write an article off this. This the more attention something is given, the more it spreads and shows if something is wrong does it not. Islam has a say in that of its voters. In fact no doubt many off them would agree with the DUP on their policies. The DUP is not going to make any difference, just like the Liberals made no difference when in coalition

3. You don't know how partnerships like this work do you? It isn't just votes. If the Tories want the DUP to back them on something then the DUP can pressure the Tories to drop any future legislation to improve gay rights. If the Tories don't do as the DUP want, then the DUP may stop backing the Tories in future votes. We might never even know but backroom politics is a part of agreements like this. It is hypothetical, but still a million times more leeway than religious groups have.

Thorin wrote:Really you think they are going to hold them to ransom on everything thing they propose simple over gay rights? Like I say we saw the Liberals have far more MP's and the Conservatives had not agreed anything over gay rights over their deal with the DUP. Which shows you clearly like many others have bought into a fear off this deal. They would not even need the DUP on any future gay rights, as labour and the Liberals would vote or them to be passed.

4. You seem to think religion as important as political groups in the modern UK. What world is this I'm not aware of? Religion and politics are separate in the UK for good reason. The DUP have influence, Muslims and Christians have little. Thank god

Give it time, the more the Muslim population grows and remains more so literally religious and anti-homosexual. You could very well see things change

1. The DUP is unquestionably an anti-gay rights group.
Religions are not unquestionably anti-gay right according to all adherents. That is the difference regards to one point. (And since it needs spelling out, I DO consider religions to be almost all opposed to gay rights, but I cannot speak for all believers). The DUP opposes same-sex marriage, and as a political group (not supporters) it is therefore undeniably opposed to gay rights.

2. The Liberals DID make a difference. The raising of the threshold at which you pay income tax was a Liberal manifesto pledge they put through in coalition. Pupil premiums were the Liberals. Preventing electoral boundary changes was the Liberals. The negotiation of lower payments and a higher income rate before paying Tuition Fees back was the Liberals. Preventing the severe austerity of now was the Liberals. The DUP could have influence, but in the opposite direction.

3. Point missed. Gay rights legislation might not even enter parliament at least from the Tories if the DUP make an agreement blocking it before hand. Again I KNOW this is hypothetical. But STILL more say that religious groups have.

4. Young people even of faith are increasingly moderate toward gay rights. Things may change, but I don't see it happening as you expect.

Didge can you please point to the post where Zack said that?

Eilzel wrote:1. The DUP is unquestionably an anti-gay rights group.
Religions are not unquestionably anti-gay right according to all adherents. That is the difference regards to one point. (And since it needs spelling out, I DO consider religions to be almost all opposed to gay rights, but I cannot speak for all believers). The DUP opposes same-sex marriage, and as a political group (not supporters) it is therefore undeniably opposed to gay rights.

Thorin wrote:And what has that got to do with the price of bread, when the law is never going to change on gay marriage?
Seriously?
Not all DUP supporters are opposed to Gay marriage, so your argument is baseless here. You see to say and be concerned by an insignificant political group and yet where a global religious one sees countless homosexuals suffer. Shows the worst double standards by some of the left as this is not just about the UK when it comes to gay rights

2. The Liberals DID make a difference. The raising of the threshold at which you pay income tax was a Liberal manifesto pledge they put through in coalition. Pupil premiums were the Liberals. Preventing electoral boundary changes was the Liberals. The negotiation of lower payments and a higher income rate before paying Tuition Fees back was the Liberals. Preventing the severe austerity of now was the Liberals. The DUP could have influence, but in the opposite direction.

Thorin wrote:Wow, you call that a difference? All of which is relevant. The deal with the DUP was for more money for Northern Ireland, not on any future votes on gay rights

3. Point missed. Gay rights legislation might not even enter parliament at least from the Tories if the DUP make an agreement blocking it before hand. Again I KNOW this is hypothetical. But STILL more say that religious groups have.

Thorin wrote:Where is the evidence for this? Its hypothetical scare mongering

4. Young people even of faith are increasingly moderate toward gay rights. Things may change, but I don't see it happening as you expect.

Actually its going the other way within the Muslim youth, who are becoming more religious and not less. That is problematic and is also down to the injection of Money from the likes of Saudi and a Salafism. So you may want to ignore this, but its a growing problem in this country.

eddie wrote:Didge can you please point to the post where Zack said that?

http://www.newsfixboard.com/t21362-chilling-picture-shows-female-isil-fighter-holding-child-moments-before-detonating-suicide-vest

Last post first page and he, sexy and sassy all now refer to me constantly as smelly, so its clear it was aimed at me.
I do not want him to suffer any punishment, as its just his anger coming out.

Thorin wrote:

eddie wrote:Didge can you please point to the post where Zack said that?

http://www.newsfixboard.com/t21362-chilling-picture-shows-female-isil-fighter-holding-child-moments-before-detonating-suicide-vest

Last post first page and he, sexy and sassy all now refer to me constantly as smelly, so its clear it was aimed at me.
I do not want him to suffer any punishment, as its just his anger coming out.

Thank you.

Thorin wrote:

Eilzel wrote:1. The DUP is unquestionably an anti-gay rights group.
Religions are not unquestionably anti-gay right according to all adherents. That is the difference regards to one point. (And since it needs spelling out, I DO consider religions to be almost all opposed to gay rights, but I cannot speak for all believers). The DUP opposes same-sex marriage, and as a political group (not supporters) it is therefore undeniably opposed to gay rights.

Thorin wrote:And what has that got to do with the price of bread, when the law is never going to change on gay marriage?
Seriously?
Not all DUP supporters are opposed to Gay marriage, so your argument is baseless here. You see to say and be concerned by an insignificant political group and yet where a global religious one sees countless homosexuals suffer. Shows the worst double standards by some of the left as this is not just about the UK when it comes to gay rights

2. The Liberals DID make a difference. The raising of the threshold at which you pay income tax was a Liberal manifesto pledge they put through in coalition. Pupil premiums were the Liberals. Preventing electoral boundary changes was the Liberals. The negotiation of lower payments and a higher income rate before paying Tuition Fees back was the Liberals. Preventing the severe austerity of now was the Liberals. The DUP could have influence, but in the opposite direction.

Thorin wrote:Wow, you call that a difference? All of which is relevant. The deal with the DUP was for more money for Northern Ireland, not on any future votes on gay rights

3. Point missed. Gay rights legislation might not even enter parliament at least from the Tories if the DUP make an agreement blocking it before hand. Again I KNOW this is hypothetical. But STILL more say that religious groups have.

Thorin wrote:Where is the evidence for this? Its hypothetical scare mongering

4. Young people even of faith are increasingly moderate toward gay rights. Things may change, but I don't see it happening as you expect.

Actually its going the other way within the Muslim youth, who are becoming more religious and not less. That is problematic and is also down to the injection of Money from the likes of Saudi and a Salafism. So you may want to ignore this, but its a growing problem in this country.

1. 'What has that go to do with...' erm, how about the point?

2. For students, low income earners and children from poor backgrounds those things made a MASSIVE difference. But I suppose empathy might be a lot to expect here...

3. Where is the evidence religious groups have more say than the DUP?

4. What % of the population today is Muslim? And what concrete evidence is there that the majority of Muslim youth are less moderate?

Eilzel wrote:

Thorin wrote:

Actually its going the other way within the Muslim youth, who are becoming more religious and not less. That is problematic and is also down to the injection of Money from the likes of Saudi and a Salafism. So you may want to ignore this, but its a growing problem in this country.

1. 'What has that go to do with...' erm, how about the point?

2. For students, low income earners and children from poor backgrounds those things made a MASSIVE difference. But I suppose empathy might be a lot to expect here...

3. Where is the evidence religious groups have more say than the DUP?

4. What % of the population today is Muslim? And what concrete evidence is there that the majority of Muslim youth are less moderate?

Where is my evidence religious groups have more sway?

Are you kidding?

How many Muslim countries have laws against homosexuality?

Again this is not just about the UK, if you think it is, you do nothing for the plight of homosexuals globally.

There is any easy way to see how people are coming more religious, by more adorning religious dress, from the Hijab, Burka ect

Its about 5% of the population

I'm talking about the UK in this case. Of course what happens to gay people in other countries is far worse. But tell me please, how does someone in the UK with a sign saying 'Fuck Islam' help a gay person in Iran or Saudi Arabia?

If anything I'd say it does more damage. Giving authorities in those countries evidence to suggest gay people oppose their religions.

Eilzel wrote:I'm talking about the UK in this case. Of course what happens to gay people in other countries is far worse. But tell me please, how does someone in the UK with a sign saying 'Fuck Islam' help a gay person in Iran or Saudi Arabia?

If anything I'd say it does more damage. Giving authorities in those countries evidence to suggest gay people oppose their religions.

Its making a statement against religions that are intolerant to homosexuals.
Just like when the media should have printed the Charlie Hebdo cartoons after the terrorist attack. To show that freedom of speech will not be silenced by those who wish to impose their views onto the rest of us. Already Arab nations have been trying to get the UN to declare criticism of islam is Blasphemy.

So again you prove my point. Its okay to say "Fuck you" to a political group because of their religious beliefs, but not to say the religions themselves and why is that Eilzel?

Because some of the followers are immature and will go on a rampage of violence?

Hence why its even more important to be vocal and stand against religious forms of intolerance

What does your signature say?

I wouldn't hold up a sign saying Fuck You to anything to be honest didge, pretty vulgar, not my style

And you didn't answer my question- how does holding up such a sign help a gay person in an Islamic Theocracy? Do you think any harm could come of doing that?

Why are you bringing other countries into this?

FYI There are gay Imams and Mosques

Hello Les x

Hi Sexy, good to see you here x

And yes there are indeed gay imams and mosques these days. It's a start, hopefully more will come.

I do think other countries have issues that need addressing, I just don't think 'Fuck Islam' signs are a particularly good way of going about approaching the problem...

Eilzel wrote:Hi Sexy, good to see you here x

And yes there are indeed gay imams and mosques these days. It's a start, hopefully more will come.

I do think other countries have issues that need addressing, I just don't think 'Fuck Islam' signs are a particularly good way of going about approaching the problem...

Indeed.

People are now reading the Quran properly ( don't know what the hell they were doing before)!!!

The Quran never states to KILL any gay people. So hopefully things will change the n other countries.

Eilzel wrote:1. The DUP is unquestionably an anti-gay rights group.
Religions are not unquestionably anti-gay right according to all adherents. That is the difference regards to one point. (And since it needs spelling out, I DO consider religions to be almost all opposed to gay rights, but I cannot speak for all believers). The DUP opposes same-sex marriage, and as a political group (not supporters) it is therefore undeniably opposed to gay rights.

2. The Liberals DID make a difference. The raising of the threshold at which you pay income tax was a Liberal manifesto pledge they put through in coalition. Pupil premiums were the Liberals. Preventing electoral boundary changes was the Liberals. The negotiation of lower payments and a higher income rate before paying Tuition Fees back was the Liberals. Preventing the severe austerity of now was the Liberals. The DUP could have influence, but in the opposite direction.

3. Point missed. Gay rights legislation might not even enter parliament at least from the Tories if the DUP make an agreement blocking it before hand. Again I KNOW this is hypothetical. But STILL more say that religious groups have.

4. Young people even of faith are increasingly moderate toward gay rights. Things may change, but I don't see it happening as you expect.

hi les, xx

you make some really good points but this doesn't make sense to me

I DO consider religions to be almost all opposed to gay rights, but I cannot speak for all believers).

if they are true believers then they stick as much as they are humanly possible to what the religion teaches them. most believers are actually just people who 'identify' to that religion. eg, mu hubby was brought up as a catholic and would tick that box on an official form mostly but he never ever went to mass or confession or owt. sometimes he would tick athiest,,,,on any occasion that a jehovahs witness knocked on the door he would declare himself to be a satanist. he would then quckly return to the sofa with a slight smirk saying ''dont know why but they didn't want to come in''
my daughter works with Muslims every day and would say ''all this guff about them taking over is BS they are just normal like we are''. that's because most Muslims over here enjoy their freedom. and they are human beings but it doesnt change whats written in any religion.

i've seen videos of african preachers (christian) talking to young kids telling them it is evil and dirty etc etc.

as for the gay rights issue it doesn't matter. cameron already enshrined gay marriage into law didn't he. are you saying they will demand she cancels it? cos i honestly cant see that happening my lovely. seriously gay rights has achieved it's aim and society has moved on so i think you may be worrying needlessly. besides looking on the bright side they can always be voted out again

ironically, the only party to fully protect gay rights is ukip

gelico wrote:

Eilzel wrote:1. The DUP is unquestionably an anti-gay rights group.
Religions are not unquestionably anti-gay right according to all adherents. That is the difference regards to one point. (And since it needs spelling out, I DO consider religions to be almost all opposed to gay rights, but I cannot speak for all believers). The DUP opposes same-sex marriage, and as a political group (not supporters) it is therefore undeniably opposed to gay rights.

2. The Liberals DID make a difference. The raising of the threshold at which you pay income tax was a Liberal manifesto pledge they put through in coalition. Pupil premiums were the Liberals. Preventing electoral boundary changes was the Liberals. The negotiation of lower payments and a higher income rate before paying Tuition Fees back was the Liberals. Preventing the severe austerity of now was the Liberals. The DUP could have influence, but in the opposite direction.

3. Point missed. Gay rights legislation might not even enter parliament at least from the Tories if the DUP make an agreement blocking it before hand. Again I KNOW this is hypothetical. But STILL more say that religious groups have.

4. Young people even of faith are increasingly moderate toward gay rights. Things may change, but I don't see it happening as you expect.

hi les, xx

you make some really good points but this doesn't make sense to me

I DO consider religions to be almost all opposed to gay rights, but I cannot speak for all believers).

if they are true believers then they stick as much as they are humanly possible to what the religion teaches them.  most believers are actually just people who 'identify' to that religion.  eg, mu hubby was brought up as a catholic and would tick that box on an official form mostly but he never ever went to mass or confession or owt.   sometimes he would tick athiest,,,,on any occasion that a jehovahs witness knocked on the door he would declare himself to be a satanist.  he would then quckly return to the sofa with a slight smirk saying ''dont know why but they didn't want to come in''
my daughter works with Muslims every day and would say ''all this guff about them taking over is BS they are just normal like we are''.  that's because most Muslims over here enjoy their freedom. and they are human beings but it doesnt change whats written in any religion.

i've seen videos of african preachers (christian) talking to young kids telling them it is evil and dirty etc etc.

as for the gay rights issue it doesn't matter.  cameron already enshrined gay marriage into law didn't he.  are you saying they will demand she cancels it?  cos i honestly cant see that happening my lovely.  seriously gay rights has achieved it's aim and society has moved on so  i think you may be worrying needlessly.  besides looking on the bright side they can always be voted out again

ironically, the only party to fully protect gay rights is ukip

Rubbish on UKIP Geli. They opposed gay marriage until it became law, then just stopped caring. All the major parties now fully support gay rights, and have since 2013 at the latest.

Your hubby doesn't sound religious at all, he sounds like most Brits tbh lol

And what I meant by believers is those who proclaim absolute faith in their god/s, follow a religion with a book that appears to state opposition to homosexuality, but for a range of reason deny this interpretation. I don't care enough to argue with them. It's not those religious people I worry about. If someone wants to believe in a gay friendly god even if the 'book' implies otherwise to me then whatever.

And no, I do not think the DUP will try to roll back anything. My point was hypothetical, if the Tories wanted to introduce gay rights legislation to improve equality or protect against discrimination then the DUP could try to negotiate against it before it reached parliament. I happen to think this unlikely to happen really, but the DUP still have more say than religious groups.

Eilzel wrote:I wouldn't hold up a sign saying Fuck You to anything to be honest didge, pretty vulgar, not my style

And you didn't answer my question- how does holding up such a sign help a gay person in an Islamic Theocracy? Do you think any harm could come of doing that?

hi les,

if you actually learn from people who have left islam, one woman was from saudi and trust me no one in saudi would ever see that. they would not be allowed. everything is monitored. this woman said that it was only when she left home that she discovered science, philosophy, thoery of evolution etc. it was a huge culture shock as she had only ever known the koran and the fact that her destiny was to 'be a good wife' only she wasnt so keen on that idea. she could never see her family again. they would have no choice but to kill her. if they didn't then the state or lynch mob would do it and the family would then also have been under suspicion for not doing it themselves

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Eilzel wrote:Hi Sexy, good to see you here x

And yes there are indeed gay imams and mosques these days. It's a start, hopefully more will come.

I do think other countries have issues that need addressing, I just don't think 'Fuck Islam' signs are a particularly good way of going about approaching the problem...

Indeed.

People are now reading the Quran properly ( don't know what the hell they were doing before)!!!

The Quran never states to KILL any gay people. So hopefully things will change the n other countries.

Yeah, I'm not honestly thrilled at the 'not killing gay people' being the extent of the Quran's teaching on homosexuality. I think, like the Bible, the Quran explicitly states acting on same sex desires as wrong. Which for me is a problem with both religions. However, if Muslims interpret the religion as not opposing gay relationships, then good for them

gelico wrote:

Eilzel wrote:I wouldn't hold up a sign saying Fuck You to anything to be honest didge, pretty vulgar, not my style

And you didn't answer my question- how does holding up such a sign help a gay person in an Islamic Theocracy? Do you think any harm could come of doing that?

hi les,

if you actually learn from people who have left islam, one woman was from saudi and trust me no one in saudi would ever see that.  they would not be allowed.  everything is monitored.  this woman said that it was only when she left home that she discovered science, philosophy, thoery of evolution etc.  it was a huge culture shock as she had only ever known the koran and the fact that her destiny was to 'be a good wife' only she wasnt so keen on that idea.  she could never see her family again.  they would have no choice but to kill her.  if they didn't then the state or lynch mob would do it and the family would then also have been under suspicion for not doing it themselves

'

I appreciate in their own country (that country) there is no chance. But many travel abroad, study in UK etc. Plus, censorship is less severe in other equally backward Muslim countries.

Eilzel wrote:I wouldn't hold up a sign saying Fuck You to anything to be honest didge, pretty vulgar, not my style

And you didn't answer my question- how does holding up such a sign help a gay person in an Islamic Theocracy? Do you think any harm could come of doing that?

Okay I get that mate, but my point is that its a tad hypocritical to say this to one political group, when its the religions that actually teach the intolerance to Homosexuals.

I think the entire liberal world should hold up a sign saying they will not tolerate such intolerance to any religion.

Why would any harm come from this? Has any come from the DUP over this?

If such harm does come, is then not the problem the insensitivity of those that follow the religion?

It is undoubtedly due to the problem of religious people didge. I agree on that.

But that doesn't help those gay people who struggle in those countries, I'd argue it could make their situation worse. Plus, as I think someone mentioned above, there are people who are gay and follow those religions. Where do they figure in this?

And of course gay people also probably support the DUP. I don't get that. But political parties are something you can change. Religions are too imo but since religious people are indoctrinated from birth it isn't so simple for them.

Eilzel wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Indeed.

People are now reading the Quran properly ( don't know what the hell they were doing before)!!!

The Quran never states to KILL any gay people. So hopefully things will change the n other countries.

Yeah, I'm not honestly thrilled at the 'not killing gay people' being the extent of the Quran's teaching on homosexuality. I think, like the Bible, the Quran explicitly states acting on same sex desires as wrong. Which for me is a problem with both religions. However, if Muslims interpret the religion as not opposing gay relationships, then good for them

The thing is for Sexy to argue only off the Quran, would mean she would have to be a Quranic Muslim and that the hadiths do not count. Which would be a good thing as the hadiths are even less reliable as historical documents. This is where much of the problems come in Islam, is from where they deify the claimed deeds of Muhammad. We have been over this before as many conflict with the Quran. Though it is from the hadiths as to where the punishments come from for homosexuals. So its no good saying that the Quran does not teach to kill homosexuals, when its from the hadiths where the view to kill homosexuals come from.

Eilzel wrote:It is undoubtedly due to the problem of religious people didge. I agree on that.

But that doesn't help those gay people who struggle in those countries, I'd argue it could make their situation worse. Plus, as I think someone mentioned above, there are people who are gay and follow those religions. Where do they figure in this?

And of course gay people also probably support the DUP. I don't get that. But political parties are something you can change. Religions are too imo but since religious people are indoctrinated from birth it isn't so simple for them.

Not sure how it can be any worse for them Eilzel?
Where they are executed for this

That is the problem mainly in the Islamic world, that they ensure that many children do not have access to many other ideas or beliefs.

Eilzel wrote:

gelico wrote:



hi les, xx

you make some really good points but this doesn't make sense to me

I DO consider religions to be almost all opposed to gay rights, but I cannot speak for all believers).

if they are true believers then they stick as much as they are humanly possible to what the religion teaches them.  most believers are actually just people who 'identify' to that religion.  eg, mu hubby was brought up as a catholic and would tick that box on an official form mostly but he never ever went to mass or confession or owt.   sometimes he would tick athiest,,,,on any occasion that a jehovahs witness knocked on the door he would declare himself to be a satanist.  he would then quckly return to the sofa with a slight smirk saying ''dont know why but they didn't want to come in''
my daughter works with Muslims every day and would say ''all this guff about them taking over is BS they are just normal like we are''.  that's because most Muslims over here enjoy their freedom. and they are human beings but it doesnt change whats written in any religion.

i've seen videos of african preachers (christian) talking to young kids telling them it is evil and dirty etc etc.

as for the gay rights issue it doesn't matter.  cameron already enshrined gay marriage into law didn't he.  are you saying they will demand she cancels it?  cos i honestly cant see that happening my lovely.  seriously gay rights has achieved it's aim and society has moved on so  i think you may be worrying needlessly.  besides looking on the bright side they can always be voted out again

ironically, the only party to fully protect gay rights is ukip

Rubbish on UKIP Geli. They opposed gay marriage until it became law, then just stopped caring. All the major parties now fully support gay rights, and have since 2013 at the latest.

that my have been farage's line but if anne marie waters gets voted as leader she is a liberal leftie ex labour activist who i think is lesbian (not confirmed)

Your hubby doesn't sound religious at all, he sounds like most Brits tbh lol

he tended to think religion was arseholes but had Muslim and sikh friends that he had since childhood and he was a skinhead bootboy, back then lol.

And what I meant by believers is those who proclaim absolute faith in their god/s, follow a religion with a book that appears to state opposition to homosexuality, but for a range of reason deny this interpretation. I don't care enough to argue with them. It's not those religious people I worry about. If someone wants to believe in a gay friendly god even if the 'book' implies otherwise to me then whatever.

And no, I do not think the DUP will try to roll back anything. My point was hypothetical, if the Tories wanted to introduce gay rights legislation to improve equality or protect against discrimination then the DUP could try to negotiate against it before it reached parliament. I happen to think this unlikely to happen really, but the DUP still have more say than religious groups.

if? that's my point les, don't gays have equal rights? i mean in all respects? we have discrimination laws in place, marriage allowed, why would they need to introduce more legislation? they dont need to