Mormon ward rejects gay girl

by Original Quill Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:38 pm

Mormon girl, 12, is stopped from speaking as she explains why she is gay to church
Ian Johnston,The Independent

Mormon ward rejects gay girl Savannah1

A 12-year-old girl who came out as a lesbian in front of her Mormon church congregation in Utah was told to sit down halfway through a speech in which she said she was not a “horrible sinner”.

Speaking at the church’s monthly Fast and Testimony session, the girl, Savannah, said she was a child of “heavenly parents” who had “made me to be gay”, according to a video taken by someone in the audience which has been watched by more than 200,000 people.

But, as she was speaking at the church near Salt Lake City, the microphone was turned off and she was asked to sit down.

A man then addressed the congregation, using the same mic, telling them he was grateful that the “Heavenly Father has made us all unique”.

Savannah began by saying she wanted to “share my testimony with you”.

“I believe I am a child of heavenly parents. I don’t know if they talk to us, but I feel in my heart that they made me and that they love me. I believe I was made the way I am, all parts of me, by my heavenly parents,” she said in remarks first reported by Pink News.

“They did not mess up when they gave me brown eyes, or when I was born bald. They did not mess up when they gave me freckles or they made me to be gay. God loves me just this way because I believe that he loves all his creations.

“No part of me is a mistake. I do not choose to be this way and it is not a fad. I cannot make someone else gay and being around me won’t make anyone else this way.

“I believe that God wants us to treat each other with kindness, even if people are different – especially if they are different. Christ showed us this.

“I believe that we should just love. I believe I am good. I try my best to be nice to each other and stick up for those that are hurting.

“I know I’m not a horrible sinner for being who I am. I believe God would tell me if I was wrong.”

She said she hoped to one day go on dates, to school dances and eventually to find a partner, get married, have a family and find a “great job”.

“I know I can have all of these things as a lesbian and be happy. I believe that if God is there, he knows I’m perfect just the way I am, and would never ask me to live my life alone or with someone I am not attracted to,” she said.

“He would want me to be happy. I want to be happy. I want to love myself and not to feel shame for being me. I ask you…”

The microphone then went dead and Savannah was asked to sit down.

A man then rose to say: “Brothers and sisters, I ask you to recognise that we are all children of God, we are loved by our Heavenly Father.

“And, I have no doubt that Heavenly Father has made us all unique in different ways and for that I am grateful.

“And I am grateful for all of you that are here today as sons and daughters of God.

“And I know very much and I’m grateful for Heavenly Father’s plans for us. And I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.”

Her mother Heather told dailymail.com that Savannah left the stage in tears.

“She came off crying to me. We both walked out of the hall, and I held her face in my hands and told her over and over that she is perfect and good, that there is nothing wrong with who she is, that she is brave and beautiful,” she added.

”I was angry that they chose to hurt her for whatever reason they had.

“My husband and I both were reluctant to let her share her testimony because of the potential rejection. She asked to do it in January, we finally agreed in May.

“She had worked so hard at perfecting it so that it would portray exactly how she felt. We decided to let her do it because we thought it would be more harmful to silence her or give her reason to feel she is wrong in any way.”

by veya_victaous Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:27 am

at least her family supports her.

I think the greater evil is when parents put the magic sky giant before their kids

by Fred Moletrousers Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:39 am

veya_victaous wrote:at least her family supports her.

I think the greater evil is when parents put the magic sky giant before their kids

Many people decide in later life, and for various reasons.

by 'Wolfie Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:34 pm

That congregation has probably lost three of its long running members...

Though I'm sure, if they wanted to maintain their religion, they can probably find another church somewhere that will accept them unconditionally..

grin angel

by eddie Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:11 pm

What a brave girl to do that. My neice has only just told her college friends she is gay and she's eighteen and found it tough.

For a church to preach about "human kindness" and all the other decent things we ask of humans, to then turn around and treat her like that....
Fucking appalling.

by nicko Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:27 pm

She may change her mind when she's a bit older, what does it matter if she's gay?

by Original Quill Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:56 pm

eddie wrote:What a brave girl to do that. My neice has only just told her college friends she is gay and she's eighteen and found it tough.

For a church to preach about "human kindness" and all the other decent things we ask of humans, to then turn around and treat her like that....
Fucking appalling.

The Church of the Latter Day Saints is not Christian. The Mormons do not believe in the Trinity, which is of course central to the 'eternal life' mission of Christianity (John 3:16). The Mormons believe there are "persons" who are called "god" and "Jesus Christ", but they are not the same personages as in Christianity. Most importantly, they are not spiritual beings (and therefore cannot bring about "ever-lasting-life").

Paul aside, the most important mission of Jesus Christ was Christian charity. Christ--the Jew (probably Essene)--was first and foremost, a humanist. Not merely coincidentally, the LDS church is distinguished by its lack of humanism.

by Syl Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:16 pm

That's a brilliant speech...sad she was not a few years older so perhaps it would have been received better.

It wont be popular to say, but personally I think her parents should not have encouraged her to make a public speech announcing her sexuality at the age of 12, their initial reaction was the best one, they should have stuck to it. Whether the girl is straight, bi or lesbian...12 years old is just too soon imo to declare what you are to all to sundry.

by eddie Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:17 pm

I don't ageee that it's too early. What is "too early"?
She must've felt ready and I don't care if she does change her mind, as someone suggested (though I doubt she will), it's hers to change.

It's never too early to have courage to speak up and it's never too early to be yourself and it's never too early to decide what you think you might be and it's never too early to tackle backward-thinking and it's NEVER too early to be an independent person.

I wish all twelve year olds felt comfortable enough in their own skin because it's never too early for that either.

by Syl Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:36 pm

Most 12 year olds are open to suggestion, their feelings and emotions are all over the place, so I do think its too early to openly state the fact you are gay or straight or anything in between.

Seriously, what 12 year old has fallen in love or deeply lusted after another?..... that is the decider.

by Raggamuffin Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:41 pm

I think it's too young as well.

by eddie Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:52 pm

No you're wrong. This isn't about whether or not it's a "gay" phase - which I'm sure is what you're both suggesting. Even putting that aside, (so we will say for arguments sake that it is a phase), she is still brave enough to say what she feels and what she wants.
She's making a stand for herself and by doing that, she's taking a stand for others.

What's wrong with that? Can either one of you tell me what harm this experience will do to her?

Because I can only see positives.

by Raggamuffin Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:56 pm

She's just too young to be talking about who she's attracted to.

by Syl Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:59 pm

eddie wrote:No you're wrong. This isn't about whether or not it's a "gay" phase - which I'm sure is what you're both suggesting. Even putting that aside, (so we will say for arguments sake that it is a phase), she is still brave enough to say what she feels and what she wants.
She's making a stand for herself and by doing that, she's taking a stand for others.

What's wrong with that? Can either one of you tell me what harm this experience will do to her?

Because I can only see positives.

The girl came away crying and hurt...that's not a good experience and it could have been avoided.
It could also make her fear actually speaking out when she is older.... because an experience like this has long lasting effects.

It may or may not be a phase, but I seriously think at 12 years old most kids don't know if they are gay or straight...their influences so far have not come from personal experience.

No one should have to stand up and justify who they are sexually anyway...she has the love and support of her parents behind her, its just that the timing is wrong imo,,,,and I doubt my opinion will change,

by eddie Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:00 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:She's just too young to be talking about who she's attracted to.

What age do we need to be when we know we are attracted to people?

So if, for example, she knows this at twelve but doesn't speak till she's.....what, 14? 15? 16?

by Raggamuffin Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:02 pm

eddie wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:She's just too young to be talking about who she's attracted to.

What age do we need to be when we know we are attracted to people?

At least wait until your teens. Laughing

by Syl Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:03 pm

When I was 12 I had a huge crush on the actor Aldo Ray (probably searching for a father/grandfather figure) .....I'm glad I didn't publicly announce that though.
He was about 60 at the time.

by HoratioTarr Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:05 pm

eddie wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:She's just too young to be talking about who she's attracted to.

What age do we need to be when we know we are attracted to people?

So if, for example, she knows this at twelve but doesn't speak till she's.....what, 14? 15? 16?

Sexually attracted? Let's face it, this is about her sexuality. At 12 she still needs to focus on being a kid for a while longer, not a woman. I'm not sure why she feels the pressure to 'come out' at such a tender age.

by eddie Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:06 pm

Syl wrote:
eddie wrote:No you're wrong. This isn't about whether or not it's a "gay" phase - which I'm sure is what you're both suggesting. Even putting that aside, (so we will say for arguments sake that it is a phase), she is still brave enough to say what she feels and what she wants.
She's making a stand for herself and by doing that, she's taking a stand for others.

What's wrong with that? Can either one of you tell me what harm this experience will do to her?

Because I can only see positives.

The girl came away crying and hurt...that's not a good experience and it could have been avoided.
It could also make her fear actually speaking out when she is older.... because an experience like this has long lasting effects.

It may or may not be a phase, but I seriously think at 12 years old most kids don't know if they are gay or straight...their influences so far have not come from personal experience.

No one should have to stand up and justify who they are sexually anyway...she has the love and support of her parents behind her, its just that the timing is wrong imo,,,,and I doubt my opinion will change,

We are going to go around in circles because we don't see this the same.

Children who have guts, and belief and confidence at any age, are to be encouraged.
That's my entire point in one sentence.

And as for the experience being a "bad one" because she cried....so what? A bad experience is still an experience which will be a great learning curve and will be a million times better than no experience at all. This will make her fucking strong for the rest of her life.

Sorry, I am the total opposite of a cotton-wool mum. She did a big thing and I applaud her.

by Syl Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:11 pm

eddie wrote:
Syl wrote:

The girl came away crying and hurt...that's not a good experience and it could have been avoided.
It could also make her fear actually speaking out when she is older.... because an experience like this has long lasting effects.

It may or may not be a phase, but I seriously think at 12 years old most kids don't know if they are gay or straight...their influences so far have not come from personal experience.

No one should have to stand up and justify who they are sexually anyway...she has the love and support of her parents behind her, its just that the timing is wrong imo,,,,and I doubt my opinion will change,

We are going to go around in circles because we don't see this the same.

Children who have guts, and belief and confidence at any age, are to be encouraged.
That's my entire point in one sentence.

And as for the experience being a "bad one" because she cried....so what? A bad experience is still an experience which will be a great learning curve and will be a million times better than no experience at all. This will make her fucking strong for the rest of her life.

Sorry, I am the total opposite of a cotton-wool mum. She did a big thing and I applaud her.

We will agree to disagree.
But I don't think its being a cotton wool mum to not want to see your kids get hurt.
Plenty of time for that when they do start to fall in love for real.

by Original Quill Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:13 pm

Syl wrote:No one should have to stand up and justify who they are sexually anyway...she has the love and support of her parents behind her, its just that the timing is wrong imo,,,,and I doubt my opinion will change,

I couldn't agree more. But it's a Mormon ward. They are particularly judgmental. That's why Mormons are always well-dressed, trimmed hair, shoes shined, non-smoking, non-drinking and perfect in every way.

Mormon ward rejects gay girl Bomjuma7

She started out saying, "I am a child of heavenly parents..." She was trying to be inclusive, and most importantly, included. Mormons are extremely insular, and xenophobic...almost tribal. The poor girl was reaching out, and the curs rejected her.

by eddie Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:15 pm

Syl it's important to guide your child so there's minimal damage for hurt, of course, but unltimately that girl wanted to do this. So she got emotional? Great! It's gonna happen sooner or later and next time a hurting comes along she'll be better prepared then the next girl.

There's nothing negative here, apart from the people who were too ignorant to receive and recognise her.

by Syl Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:17 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:No one should have to stand up and justify who they are sexually anyway...she has the love and support of her parents behind her, its just that the timing is wrong imo,,,,and I doubt my opinion will change,

I couldn't agree more. But it's a Mormon ward. They are particularly judgmental. That's why Mormons are always well-dressed, trimmed hair, shoes shined, non-smoking, non-drinking and perfect in every way.

She started out saying, "I am a child of heavenly parents..." She was trying to be inclusive, and most importantly, included. Mormons are extremely insular, and xenophobic...almost tribal. The poor girl was reaching out, and the curs rejected her.

Yes I understand that, its sad that she felt the need to be accepted in this way at such a young age.

by HoratioTarr Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:19 pm

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I couldn't agree more. But it's a Mormon ward. They are particularly judgmental. That's why Mormons are always well-dressed, trimmed hair, shoes shined, non-smoking, non-drinking and perfect in every way.

She started out saying, "I am a child of heavenly parents..." She was trying to be inclusive, and most importantly, included. Mormons are extremely insular, and xenophobic...almost tribal. The poor girl was reaching out, and the curs rejected her.

Yes I understand that, its sad that she felt the need to be accepted in this way at such a young age.

Yes, it is. It's potentially damaging, I should think. To be under that kind of pressure and rejection at 12

by Original Quill Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:20 pm

Syl wrote:Yes I understand that, its sad that she felt the need to be accepted in this way at such a young age.

Ostracism is a tool that Mormons use.

by HoratioTarr Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:23 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:No one should have to stand up and justify who they are sexually anyway...she has the love and support of her parents behind her, its just that the timing is wrong imo,,,,and I doubt my opinion will change,

I couldn't agree more. But it's a Mormon ward. They are particularly judgmental. That's why Mormons are always well-dressed, trimmed hair, shoes shined, non-smoking, non-drinking and perfect in every way.

She started out saying, "I am a child of heavenly parents..." She was trying to be inclusive, and most importantly, included. Mormons are extremely insular, and xenophobic...almost tribal. The poor girl was reaching out, and the curs rejected her.

Mormon ward rejects gay girl Jedogvah-amp-039-s-witnesses_o_1881105

by Syl Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:26 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:Yes I understand that, its sad that she felt the need to be accepted in this way at such a young age.

Ostracism is a tool that Mormons use.

Pity her parents have brought her up in such an insular society then.
My son used to have Mormon friends when he was about this girls age, thankfully he never became that involved with them that their ways rubbed off on him.
They were really nice kids though,

by Syl Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:46 pm

eddie wrote:Syl it's important to guide your child so there's minimal damage for hurt, of course, but unltimately that girl wanted to do this. So she got emotional? Great! It's gonna happen sooner or later and next time a hurting comes along she'll be better prepared then the next girl.

There's nothing negative here, apart from the people who were too ignorant to receive and recognise her.

I don't disagree that the people were ignorant IF they cut her off because she was saying she was gay, but just maybe they cut her off because what she was saying was inappropriate for her age.

Sorry Eddie, but unless I am way out of touch (though I have kids and grandkids and have always been involved with them and their friends) I think at 12 years old the best way to support your kids is to encourage them to act their age.
I admit I am not the mum of a pre teen girl (and you are) so I respect your views but I just don't agree with them.

by Original Quill Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:04 am

Mormonism was born in America. As they migrated west, they tended to settle in the western slope of the Rocky Mountains. Thus they collected in the communities of Idaho, Utah and Arizona. Arizona is the populous state, and Mesa is the 2nd largest Mormon ward in the world (2nd to Salt Lake City).

I taught criminal justice at the University of Arizona, the Silverbell Police Academy (affiliated with UofA) and I was an assistant Attorney General of Arizona. The reason why Mormons are insular is they are peadophiles and polygamists. They teach that god wants women to be married at the first sign of sexual maturity. They get into polygamy because they need enough elders to service the women.

Since the 1920's those practices have been outlawed...except for the Fundamental Latter Day Saints (FLDS). Arizona is split at the top by the Grand Canyon, making it difficult very to get to the Northern Strip to police (we had to take helicopters). So the FLDS settled in at Colorado City, AZ. We had a very difficult time prying them out of there.

But even elsewhere, there are surreptitious polygamist/paedophiliac families all over Idaho, Utah and Arizona. I know one deputy sheriff in a suburb of SLC who has three wives. It's no wonder they keep to themselves. They are radical RW'ers, and dedicated homophobics. This is what is behind this little girl's opposition.

by veya_victaous Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:05 am

@quill

by Original Quill Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:09 am

If Jesus was a Jew, how come he had a Puerto Rican name?

by Miffs2 Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:17 pm

Her parents were entirely wrong to allow this to happen. At 12 years old she is still a child and her sexual identity should not be her focus. Imagine the psychological damage done to this child.

by Syl Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:34 pm

Miffs2 wrote:Her parents were entirely wrong to allow this to happen. At 12 years old she is still a child and her sexual identity should not be her focus. Imagine the psychological damage done to this child.

They was my thoughts too Miffs. x

by Guest Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:38 pm

Miffs2 wrote:Her parents were entirely wrong to allow this to happen. At 12 years old she is still a child and her sexual identity should not be her focus. Imagine the psychological damage done to this child.

Why were they wrong to support her?

Her sexual identity is what matters here because its who she is

So it should be people acceptance of this.

It would only be psychological damage based religiously would it not?

Are you saying people leaving Islam will be psychological damaged if young Nems?

by Original Quill Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:37 pm

Miffs2 wrote:Her parents were entirely wrong to allow this to happen. At 12 years old she is still a child and her sexual identity should not be her focus. Imagine the psychological damage done to this child.

I think you have to understand LDS tradition here. At this age females go through a rite of passage, which is why it happens at this time, and before the entire Ward. It's the Church tradition that mandates the timing (in her life) at which this is done. I don't know what rite was going on to prompt this, but she didn't just get up and decide to announce this.

What is really unique here, is the content of her announcement and the Bishop's refusal to accept it.

by Guest Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:39 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Miffs2 wrote:Her parents were entirely wrong to allow this to happen. At 12 years old she is still a child and her sexual identity should not be her focus. Imagine the psychological damage done to this child.

I think you have to understand LDS tradition here. At this age females go through a rite of passage, which is why it happens at this time, and before the entire Ward. It's the Church tradition that mandates the timing (in her life) at which this is done. I don't know what rite was going on to prompt this, but she didn't just get up and decide to announce this.

What is really unique here, is the content of her announcement and the Bishop's refusal to accept it.

You have no idea about Mormonism do you Quill?

What rite of passage for Girls?

It does not exist in Mormonism.

by Miffs2 Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:30 am

Original Quill wrote:
Miffs2 wrote:Her parents were entirely wrong to allow this to happen. At 12 years old she is still a child and her sexual identity should not be her focus. Imagine the psychological damage done to this child.

I think you have to understand LDS tradition here. At this age females go through a rite of passage, which is why it happens at this time, and before the entire Ward. It's the Church tradition that mandates the timing (in her life) at which this is done. I don't know what rite was going on to prompt this, but she didn't just get up and decide to announce this.

What is really unique here, is the content of her announcement and the Bishop's refusal to accept it.

So if the Bishop refuses to accept it, where does that leave the girl?

by Guest Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:39 am

Miffs2 wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I think you have to understand LDS tradition here. At this age females go through a rite of passage, which is why it happens at this time, and before the entire Ward. It's the Church tradition that mandates the timing (in her life) at which this is done. I don't know what rite was going on to prompt this, but she didn't just get up and decide to announce this.

What is really unique here, is the content of her announcement and the Bishop's refusal to accept it.

So if the Bishop refuses to accept it, where does that leave the girl?

Hopefully to open her eyes to the problem of religions and be free from such constraints

by Original Quill Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:23 am

Miffs2 wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I think you have to understand LDS tradition here. At this age females go through a rite of passage, which is why it happens at this time, and before the entire Ward. It's the Church tradition that mandates the timing (in her life) at which this is done. I don't know what rite was going on to prompt this, but she didn't just get up and decide to announce this.

What is really unique here, is the content of her announcement and the Bishop's refusal to accept it.

So if the Bishop refuses to accept it, where does that leave the girl?

Appeal may be made to the Church courts.

LDS Courts wrote:The Principles and Purposes of Church Courts Lesson 41: Section 102
Doctrine and Covenants Instructor’s Guide: Religion 324-325, (1981), 81–82

Theme
Church courts are provided for the blessing and protection of both the Church and the individual.

Theme Analysis
A.
The principles revealed to govern Church courts are to ensure that truth, right, equity, and justice are served.

1. Three levels of courts are established in the Church—bishop’s court, high council (stake) court, and First Presidency court.
2. Special courts are also provided-elder’s courts (where there are no established wards), the Presiding Bishop’s court or “common council of the church” (D&C 107:82), and the special traveling high council of the Twelve Apostles (see Widtsoe, Priesthood and Church Government, pp. 212-14).
3. The rights of the accuser and the accused are to be protected.
4. Decisions are made by the presiding officer of the court but sustained by the entire body.
5. Appeals from the two lower courts are provided for.

B.
The purpose of Church courts is to extend love and redemption, not retribution.

1. Courts enable the responsible Church officer to keep the Church unspotted from the sins of the world.
2. The primary objective of Church courts is to help rebellious and sinful members repent.

However, keep in mind she is challenging the LDS doctrine on homosexuality. It has been my experience that the Bishop's authority is absolute on such matters. The Bishop was probably listening to hear enough to defend his decision, and then he pulled the plug.

Once again, the LDS religion is very insular. Within the Ward it was probably well known what was happening, and they were likely prepared. Likely, there was a great deal of gossip that preceded and maybe prompted the girl to speak up.

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