I'm the victim

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:55 am

First topic message reminder :

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2546573/Im-victim-Shameless-thief-says-justice-let-victim-battered-cleared.html

Apparently our justice system has let this man down. He has suffered ten times as much as the man he was stealing from and it is wrong that the man he was stealing from is not being punished.

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:40 pm

Irn Bru wrote:
grumpy old git wrote:

I know that "lads" origins JD......

Fair enough Victor but he was only 16 years old and probably badly influenced by those older than him. No trial, no judge, no jury - a death sentence on him so he will never get a second chance in his life and at 16 years old that just doesn't seem right.

he was there to abrogate someones human rights ...what makes you think his should not also be forfeit

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:40 pm

sphinx wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Why do you think that is Sphinx?

Now I know why, so what would be the reason it is withdrawn?

Again that does not mean people should place themselves into a situation that could see other people get hurt by their bravado action. It is all well and good to sit behind a PC and say what you would do in hindsight, dealing with one is a whole different kettle of fish

Do you want the bottom line or the dressed up fancy version?
Well I seemed to be getting your dressed up version so far

The bottom line is literally the bottom line - insurance companies are not in it for human interest and want profits. The second a customer starts regularly and frequently costing them more than that customer is paying the company start looking to get out of the contract (which they will be able to do via the small print)
Yes we know but they do cover loses that people do incur do they not, thus to have no insurance then the onus of fault is with the person who did not cover themselves or then make better their security arrangements after being hit

The dressed up version will involve explanations about suspecting the customer of at the very least careless negligence and more probably criminal collusion. Sometimes they are even right about this.

Again I do not see the man in the story actions as bravado - I see it as a natural reaction to seeing someone in the process of stealing from him.

Is it a natural reaction though, as how many people and incidents have you seen where people are getting beaten up and people do absolutely nothing? How many times have people shit a brick in such a situation? You claim it is a natural reaction but to many it would not be the reaction they would take and even then you place yourself at greater risk taking on a situation when at best you have little knowledge of what you are taking on. It is all on gut instinct that some might do, but of those who do, there is as seen a risk factor involved, one that may come with a heavy price

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:41 pm

Irn Bru wrote:
grumpy old git wrote:

I know that "lads" origins JD......

Fair enough Victor but he was only 16 years old and probably badly influenced by those older than him. No trial, no judge, no jury - a death sentence on him so he will never get a second chance in his life and at 16 years old that just doesn't seem right.

I agree Irn...

Btw ,never knew it was you Victor! Smile

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:41 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
sphinx wrote:

I have not made any points other than to answer you based on anything other than this single case.

I have stated that I believe a person confronting a criminal on their own property should have the right to attempt to stop them leaving, and the right to chase and restrain. I do not believe in vigilantism hunting down supposed criminals with no evidence other than word of mouth.

The man in the story did not take the law into his own hands -he did not set out to hurt or damage and was not punishing. He was simply trying to restrain until police arrival and was unable to gauge accurately the force used in doing so. Contrary to Hollywood myth your average person does not have the ability to work out how hard to hit someone to render them helpless and harmless without hurting them.

Your argument is emotive and I am not saying they should have the right to attempt to detain them as you now claim, which was not asked of me, but gain by doing so you run the risk of this going very badly wrong, when is it worth the risk in the first place even more say if you have other people living there? Even here though he claims he does not know the force he was using yet adrenaline would mean more than anything he was using as much force as possible, as anyone does when trying to restrain someone, so that is one view I do not buy.

Each time this man was robbed with nothing appearing to be done about it and no justice for him the risk he ran by doing it became less and less - until the risk of trying to tackle the criminals became less than the risk of letting them run away.

He did everything right through the first half dozen or dozen robberies.

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:42 pm

Joy Division wrote:
sphinx wrote:

Do you want the bottom line or the dressed up fancy version?

The bottom line is literally the bottom line - insurance companies are not in it for human interest and want profits. The second a customer starts regularly and frequently costing them more than that customer is paying the company start looking to get out of the contract (which they will be able to do via the small print)

The dressed up version will involve explanations about suspecting the customer of at the very least careless negligence and more probably criminal collusion. Sometimes they are even right about this.

Again I do not see the man in the story actions as bravado - I see it as a natural reaction to seeing someone in the process of stealing from him.

...well they are if that person has life insurance Sphinx!

...but moreover ...would you keep kicking someone who was down and unable to get up off the floor?...

depends how much he had pi55ed me off......

Some folk believe in taking liberties and over kill, I do not,

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:43 pm

Joy Division wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:

Fair enough Victor but he was only 16 years old and probably badly influenced by those older than him. No trial, no judge, no jury - a death sentence on him so he will never get a second chance in his life and at 16 years old that just doesn't seem right.

I agree Irn...

Btw ,never knew it was you Victor!

:::grouch::

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:44 pm

sphinx wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Your argument is emotive and I am not saying they should have the right to attempt to detain them as you now claim, which was not asked of me, but gain by doing so you run the risk of this going very badly wrong, when is it worth the risk in the first place even more say if you have other people living there? Even here though he claims he does not know the force he was using yet adrenaline would mean more than anything he was using as much force as possible, as anyone does when trying to restrain someone, so that is one view I do not buy.

Each time this man was robbed with nothing appearing to be done about it and no justice for him the risk he ran by doing it became less and less - until the risk of trying to tackle the criminals became less than the risk of letting them run away.

He did everything right through the first half dozen or dozen robberies.

Yes he did and the system had let him down there is no denying this, what is though is that in reality he got lucky. As any situation will have to have some luck on your side going into the unknown. The reality is people who do this place themselves at risk, and I am not blaming him for doing what he did but showing how it can be very much the wrong decision to take

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:45 pm

Joy Division wrote:
sphinx wrote:

Do you want the bottom line or the dressed up fancy version?

The bottom line is literally the bottom line - insurance companies are not in it for human interest and want profits. The second a customer starts regularly and frequently costing them more than that customer is paying the company start looking to get out of the contract (which they will be able to do via the small print)

The dressed up version will involve explanations about suspecting the customer of at the very least careless negligence and more probably criminal collusion. Sometimes they are even right about this.

Again I do not see the man in the story actions as bravado - I see it as a natural reaction to seeing someone in the process of stealing from him.

...well they are if that person has life insurance Sphinx!

...but moreover ...would you keep kicking someone who was down and unable to get up off the floor?...

Some folk believe in taking liberties and over kill, I do not,

If I believed a person to have a weapon and was capable of getting off the floor I would do a damn site more than keep kicking.

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:46 pm

sphinx wrote:
Joy Division wrote:

...well they are if that person has life insurance Sphinx!

...but moreover ...would you keep kicking someone who was down and unable to get up off the floor?...

Some folk believe in taking liberties and over kill, I do not,

If I believed a person to have a weapon and was capable of getting off the floor I would do a damn site more than keep kicking.

Now that is bravado!

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:49 pm

nope didge ...thats common sense.....knock em down and keep kicking untill they stop moving...and then kick em some more to make sure.....

!st rule of personal combat....if you are going to do it...mean it and do it right....... in other words...let it all hang out...have a field day...relieve your frustrations...let loose the inner animal....whatever....just make sure the bastard isnt going to get up...because if he does...he's gonna be PI55SED with you.....

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:50 pm

grumpy old git wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:

Fair enough Victor but he was only 16 years old and probably badly influenced by those older than him. No trial, no judge, no jury - a death sentence on him so he will never get a second chance in his life and at 16 years old that just doesn't seem right.

he was there to abrogate someones human rights ...what makes you think his should not also be forfeit

If that young lad had entered Tony's house with a loaded gun then of course shoot him if he needs to, but an unarmed lad of 16 Vic, most likely scared shitless when he was being chased, it's just not right, and Tony Martin took a real liberty IMO. Sad

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:51 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
sphinx wrote:

Each time this man was robbed with nothing appearing to be done about it and no justice for him the risk he ran by doing it became less and less - until the risk of trying to tackle the criminals became less than the risk of letting them run away.

He did everything right through the first half dozen or dozen robberies.

Yes he did and the system had let him down there is no denying this, what is though is that in reality he got lucky. As any situation will have to have some luck on your side going into the unknown. The reality is people who do this place themselves at risk, and I am not blaming him for doing what he did but showing how it can be very much the wrong decision to take

There are times when a man (species not gender) has to assess the chances and take the risk anyway or we do not stand a chance.

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:51 pm

grumpy old git wrote:nope didge ...thats common sense.....knock em down and keep kicking untill they stop moving...and then kick em some more to make sure.....

No it is bravado, because if you get it wrong you could quite possibly end up dead.
I have heard many people talk a good talk when it comes to fighting or what they would do in any given situation but the reality is when such a situation happens that goes all out of the window, many do not act on instinct but are overcome with fear.

by ALLAKAKA Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:52 pm

Until we bring back the death penalty for killers such as Adebolajo , adebolawe and dale cregan we have lost any justice in the UK.

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:52 pm

sorry didge /...i did an edit whilst you were posting....

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:53 pm

ALLAKAKA wrote: Until we bring back the death penalty for killers such as Adebolajo , adebolawe and dale cregan we have lost any justice in the UK.

cor alakaka...do you have to use that god awful font????

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:53 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
sphinx wrote:

If I believed a person to have a weapon and was capable of getting off the floor I would do a damn site more than keep kicking.

Now that is bravado!

If you wish to believe that please do.

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:54 pm

sphinx wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Yes he did and the system had let him down there is no denying this, what is though is that in reality he got lucky. As any situation will have to have some luck on your side going into the unknown. The reality is people who do this place themselves at risk, and I am not blaming him for doing what he did but showing how it can be very much the wrong decision to take

There are times when a man (species not gender) has to assess the chances and take the risk anyway or we do not stand a chance.

Yes but you really have little time to assess such a situation or how in fact you would deal with the situation if it actually happened to you, most views here are based in hindsight, not from actually dealing with such an event. Seriously adrenaline when it kicks in can also play havoc with making sound decisions also, not always to those who are trained for example soldiers, but many people are not trained when it comes to adrenaline

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:54 pm

sphinx wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Yes he did and the system had let him down there is no denying this, what is though is that in reality he got lucky. As any situation will have to have some luck on your side going into the unknown. The reality is people who do this place themselves at risk, and I am not blaming him for doing what he did but showing how it can be very much the wrong decision to take

There are times when a man (species not gender) has to assess the chances and take the risk anyway or we do not stand a chance.

...yes Sphinx, you earlier told us how you would fight to the death rather than lose your Sydney Divine collection. Laughing

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:55 pm

Joy Division wrote:
grumpy old git wrote:

he was there to abrogate someones human rights ...what makes you think his should not also be forfeit

If that young lad had entered Tony's house with a loaded gun then of course shoot him if he needs to, but an unarmed lad of 16 Vic, most likely scared shitless when he was being chased, it's just not right, and Tony Martin took a real liberty IMO.

well knowing what I do, I have no sympathy

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:55 pm

anyway this is interesting will catch up more tomorrow.

Night all

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:56 pm

PhilDidge wrote:anyway this is interesting will catch up more tomorrow.

Night all

...night Didge....weet dreams Laughing

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:57 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
sphinx wrote:

There are times when a man (species not gender) has to assess the chances and take the risk anyway or we do not stand a chance.

Yes but you really have little time to assess such a situation or how in fact you would deal with the situation if it actually happened to you, most views here are based in hindsight, not from actually dealing with such an event. Seriously adrenaline when it kicks in can also play havoc with making sound decisions also, not always to those who are trained for example soldiers, but many people are not trained when it comes to adrenaline

You may want to be careful assuming what experience people do and do not have when it comes to high pressure dangerous situations and their ability to predict how they will react.

by Clarkson Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:00 pm

I love the way in the light of day the CPS assesses a man in the middle of the night facing two robbers has overacted too much to the threat. I wonder how they would react in similar circumstances.

There is an inbuilt bias against the householder rather in favour. Even mealy mouthed politicians are concerned.

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:00 pm

well since we seem up for it

this is ONE area where i tend to think our supposedly less civilised coffee coloured brethren may have a point....thieves.....remove a hand...or two....
now for car theives....remove a foot...or two

with a bloody big sword at a public event....nothing like terrifying the would be scroats

as I also beleive rapists should be branded with a big R on the forehead and the back of both hands
and probaly both butt cheeks too...but thats optional...

etc etc etc

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:04 pm

sphinx wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Yes but you really have little time to assess such a situation or how in fact you would deal with the situation if it actually happened to you, most views here are based in hindsight, not from actually dealing with such an event. Seriously adrenaline when it kicks in can also play havoc with making sound decisions also, not always to those who are trained for example soldiers, but many people are not trained when it comes to adrenaline

You may want to be careful assuming what experience people do and do not have when it comes to high pressure dangerous situations and their ability to predict how they will react.

Really, I do not think so, what sort of answer is that, again very objectionable view point from yourself.
Again until confronted with a situation nobody can predict how people will react, I have seen people who I thought were hopeless at a job be incredible in dealing with a crisis with many panicking people around them, who the ones panicking were the ones you had thought would not. Some people react well to a situation, however these are exceptions. There is no telling how anyone will act, this is all in hindsight

Right have to go

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:07 pm

After the sixth time of being burgled, my brother put signs above everything, giving its second hand price!

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:07 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
sphinx wrote:

You may want to be careful assuming what experience people do and do not have when it comes to high pressure dangerous situations and their ability to predict how they will react.

Really, I do not think so, what sort of answer is that, again very objectionable view point from yourself.
Again until confronted with a situation nobody can predict how people will react, I have seen people who I thought were hopeless at a job be incredible in dealing with a crisis with many panicking people. Some people react well to a situation, however these are exceptions. There is no telling how anyone will act, this is all in hindsight

Right have to go

You are assuming that nobody is speaking with hindsight.
I will put money on it that more than one person on here has faced the full adrenalin and knows their reactions from experience not imagination.

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:10 pm

sphinx wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Really, I do not think so, what sort of answer is that, again very objectionable view point from yourself.
Again until confronted with a situation nobody can predict how people will react, I have seen people who I thought were hopeless at a job be incredible in dealing with a crisis with many panicking people. Some people react well to a situation, however these are exceptions. There is no telling how anyone will act, this is all in hindsight

Right have to go

You are assuming that nobody is speaking with hindsight.
I will put money on it that more than one person on here has faced the full adrenalin and knows their reactions from experience not imagination.

On that situation, another maybe totally different, this is not what you are grasping, one situation may create a reaction where another in different circumstances would be very different. Thus understanding adrenaline is more than just a few events, so you can never predict the outcome of how many people will react as it will differ greatly each time dependent on the situation

Give it 5 minutes so I log off so I don;t get dragged to respond :D

See you tomorrow

by ALLAKAKA Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:13 pm

I can honestly say that I did come close to killing someone once with my bare hands, fortunately for me they survived and be cause it was a gang who attacked me ,I got off very lightly.

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:19 pm

I ask some this...

Of your son or daugher worked in Tesco and the place was being held up in the cash office where your son or daughter worked , would you encourage them to fight the armed robbers or hand ober the cash?

I know I would tell my kids to hand the money over and notmtomtry anything bravado as that could well cost them their life...

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:20 pm

ALLAKAKA wrote:

I can honestly say that I did come close to killing someone once with my bare hands, fortunately for me they survived and be cause it was a gang who attacked me ,I got off very lightly.

It is my belief that most people in the right circumstances are capable of killing.

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:21 pm

Joy Division wrote:I ask some this...

Of your son or daugher worked in Tesco and the place was being held up in the cash office where your son or daughter worked , would you encourage them to fight the armed robbers or hand ober the cash?

I know I would tell my kids to hand the money over and notmtomtry anything bravado as that could well cost them their life...

I would advise people to hand over the cash.

I do not take my own advice.

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:21 pm

ALLAKAKA wrote:

I can honestly say that I did come close to killing someone once with my bare hands, fortunately for me they survived and be cause it was a gang who attacked me ,I got off very lightly.

Mnmm, so big , strong and tough Kaka ::slap:: Laughing

Glad all ended without anything serious though.

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:22 pm

sphinx wrote:
Joy Division wrote:I ask some this...

Of your son or daugher worked in Tesco and the place was being held up in the cash office where your son or daughter worked , would you encourage them to fight the armed robbers or hand ober the cash?

I know I would tell my kids to hand the money over and notmtomtry anything bravado as that could well cost them their life...

I would advise people to hand over the cash.

I do not take my own advice.

You would also advise your son or daughter to hand over the cash too Sphinx?

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:24 pm

Joy Division wrote:I ask some this...

Of your son or daugher worked in Tesco and the place was being held up in the cash office where your son or daughter worked , would you encourage them to fight the armed robbers or hand ober the cash?

I know I would tell my kids to hand the money over and notmtomtry anything bravado as that could well cost them their life...

thats a different scenario to justifiably kicking seven bells out of a couple of sub humans rummaging through your workshop......

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:26 pm

grumpy old git wrote:
Joy Division wrote:I ask some this...

Of your son or daugher worked in Tesco and the place was being held up in the cash office where your son or daughter worked , would you encourage them to fight the armed robbers or hand ober the cash?

I know I would tell my kids to hand the money over and notmtomtry anything bravado as that could well cost them their life...

thats a different scenario to justifiably kicking seven bells out of a couple of sub humans rummaging through your workshop......

It's still a burglary Vic, a burglary form one's place of employment form where they receive their pay...

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:28 pm

Joy Division wrote:
sphinx wrote:

I would advise people to hand over the cash.

I do not take my own advice.

You would also advise your son or daughter to hand over the cash too Sphinx?

I would advise them to - however I rather suspect they would do as mother does not as mother says.

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:31 pm

sphinx wrote:
Joy Division wrote:

You would also advise your son or daughter to hand over the cash too Sphinx?

I would advise them to - however I rather suspect they would do as mother does not as mother says.

...good call Sphinx, that would be the correct advise , wether they acted upon that or not would be their call.

But giving the kids that advice is best Smile

Hand over the cash.

The money will be insured if it's not recovered anyway, that's what it's for.

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:32 pm

Joy Division wrote:
grumpy old git wrote:

thats a different scenario to justifiably kicking seven bells out of a couple of sub humans rummaging through your workshop......

It's still a burglary Vic, a burglary form one's place of employment form where they receive their pay...

However, since even when I was working for someone else...i had no loyalty to them...i was merely a wage whore, there for the monthly pittance and anything else I could screw out of them only, such an event would have been classified by me as SEP......someone else's problem. it simply would not occur to me to put myself in harms way for an employer...

by ALLAKAKA Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:34 pm

Joy Division wrote:
ALLAKAKA wrote:

I can honestly say that I did come close to killing someone once with my bare hands, fortunately for me they survived and be cause it was a gang who attacked me ,I got off very lightly.

Mnmm, so big , strong and tough Kaka ::slap::

Glad all ended without anything serious though.

He spent a few months in hospital and I paid a £25 fine , so it was a good result all round.

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:38 pm

ALLAKAKA wrote:
Joy Division wrote:

Mnmm, so big , strong and tough Kaka ::slap::

Glad all ended without anything serious though.

He spent a few months in hospital and I paid a £25 fine , so it was a good result all round.

Quite right IMO...as it was a gang and you were attacked first,you shouldn't have been fined, that is self defence...and if someone has been attacked them I'm all for self defence ...

Maybe teach the arse not to try to be a bully, assholes.

by scrat Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:44 pm

ALLAKAKA wrote:

I can honestly say that I did come close to killing someone once with my bare hands, fortunately for me they survived and be cause it was a gang who attacked me ,I got off very lightly.

So it was just a quick "fuck all to do" shuffle then KaKa, that got you off so lightly, no doubt some visual imagery of Muslims was involved!

by Guest Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:48 pm

I once saw this written somewhere a while back

quote
" if a man honourably calls me out and fights fair, i will fight fair. I will accept victory without crowing and defeat with good grace.

If a man tries to steal from me i will attack without warning or mercy, will fight foul and give no quarter

if how ever a man attempts to harm my family or pets i will show him a level of crazy shit he wont be able to comprehend, and that will make his worst nightmares seem a good place to be"

::dunno::

by ALLAKAKA Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:49 pm

scrat wrote:
ALLAKAKA wrote:

I can honestly say that I did come close to killing someone once with my bare hands, fortunately for me they survived and be cause it was a gang who attacked me ,I got off very lightly.
So it was a just a quick "fuck all to do" shuffle then KaKa, that got you off so lightly, no doubt some visual imagery of Muslims was involved!

No thick boy , they were definitely White trash.

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