Pope suggests it’s better to be an atheist than a bad Christian

He has no concept of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ or the forgiveness of sins . He doesn't know what grace is .

That's all I am saying .

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:He has no concept of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ or the forgiveness of sins . He doesn't know what grace is .

That's all I am saying .

If you don't live the life, you don't deserve to call yourself a Christian.

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:He has no concept of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ or the forgiveness of sins . He doesn't know what grace is .

That's all I am saying .

the above is truly the mindset of an individual that knows they are evil and harms others, but thinks it's ok cause they asked the zombie son of a magic sky giant for forgiveness...

that's all I'm saying.

veya_victaous wrote:

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:He has no concept of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ or the forgiveness of sins . He doesn't know what grace is .

That's all I am saying .

the above is truly the mindset of an individual that knows they are evil and harms others, but thinks it's ok cause they asked the zombie son of a magic sky giant for forgiveness...

that's all I'm saying.

VoD is the ultimate hypocritical example of a typical faux "Christian"...

We don't have to look any further than her insane, pointless and largely unwarranted attacks against various "left wingers" on here in recent days..

Each of us are hypocrites at some point in our lives - are any of us perfect ?

Faith is a personal journey and it grows with experience . The good times can really build a faith - the bad times really test our faith .

The pope isn't following the scriptures - Jesus died for our sins all of them so even if we are failing in our daily lives to do the right thing it doesn't mean we are less close to God .

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:Each of us are hypocrites at some point in our lives - are any of us perfect ?

Faith is a personal journey and it grows with experience . The good times can really build a faith - the bad times really test our faith .

The pope isn't following the scriptures - Jesus died for our sins all of them so even if we are failing in our daily lives to do the right thing it doesn't mean we are less close to God .

If you are really interested in this, I would suggest you bring it up with your pastor. I think he or she would probably say that faith without works is dead.

This thread isn't about Vod, although I see there's already been some tag-teaming going on in order to attack her.

It's interesting that atheists are hanging onto the words of the Pope.

Let me even things up; doesn't matter if you call yourself a Christian or not, you can still be a good person to others and live from your heart.

I don't think Vod is evil and I think she probably does as much good within her local comunity as any one of us on this thread.

Ben Reilly wrote:

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:Each of us are hypocrites at some point in our lives - are any of us perfect ?

Faith is a personal journey and it grows with experience . The good times can really build a faith - the bad times really test our faith .

The pope isn't following the scriptures - Jesus died for our sins all of them so even if we are failing in our daily lives to do the right thing it doesn't mean we are less close to God .

If you are really interested in this, I would suggest you bring it up with your pastor. I think he or she would probably say that faith without works is dead.

I don't need to speak to my Pastor because as eddie said everyone will do good works even small works are noticed by God .

When i visit my dad at the care home there are obviously many others with Parkinson's and dementia in there , there are a few that i always try to help because one lady is like a little girl carries a rag doll around with her and she shows me the doll , i make a lot of it and sit and talk to her , she doesn't say much just smiles and says ' I don't know ' then there is a man who with dementia who cries real tears and he always asks me ' can i go home please don't leave me here ' . I've been told I should get a job there as the staff think I have a compassion for this .
I'm not one to go about telling others what I do for good deeds , like I say we all do something nice for others at some point .

Also the Pope is suggesting Christians who don't do good works are not Christians - he's judging them for a start because nobody know the heart of a Christian . Openly doing good deeds is one thing but helping in other ways and not bragging is the kind of good deed God loves the most .

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:Each of us are hypocrites at some point in our lives - are any of us perfect ?

Faith is a personal journey and it grows with experience . The good times can really build a faith - the bad times really test our faith .

The pope isn't following the scriptures - Jesus died for our sins all of them so even if we are failing in our daily lives to do the right thing it doesn't mean we are less close to God .

I don't get the 'jesus died for our sins' concept.

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:

Ben Reilly wrote:

If you are really interested in this, I would suggest you bring it up with your pastor. I think he or she would probably say that faith without works is dead.

I don't need to speak to my Pastor because as eddie said everyone will do good works even small works are noticed by God .

When i visit my dad at the care home there are obviously many others with Parkinson's and dementia in there , there are a few that i always try to help because one lady is like a little girl carries a rag doll around with her and she shows me the doll , i make a lot of it and sit and talk to her , she doesn't say much just smiles and says ' I don't know ' then there is a man who with dementia who cries real tears and he always asks me ' can i go home please don't leave me here ' . I've been told I should get a job there as the staff think I have a compassion for this .
I'm not one to go about telling others what I do for good deeds , like I say we all do something nice for others at some point .

Also the Pope is suggesting Christians who don't do good works are not Christians - he's judging them for a start because nobody know the heart of a Christian . Openly doing good deeds is one thing but helping in other ways and not bragging is the kind of good deed God loves the most .

Actually he is stating about Christians who are hypocritical and thus bad Christians. Where in a way he is insulting atheists or any of religious denomination actually, placing them alongside bad Christians. That they may as well be non-believers.
He is judging people based on the teachings of Jesus. Though the Catholic Church happens to be the most critical of them all. Where as both of you are doing, trying to claim, you both follow the right ways of following Christianity, alongside 42,000 Christian Denominations. Even if Christianity was true, in the sense of Jesus being a God, only one of the denominations could then be right.

The teachings of Jesus, show that he was full of forgiveness, love and kindness etc, so if people fall foul of these teachings, they clearly conflict, with what he taught.

The pope is judging people - he doesn't know how they practice their faith . He's judging which is wrong .

HoratioTarr wrote:

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:Each of us are hypocrites at some point in our lives - are any of us perfect ?

Faith is a personal journey and it grows with experience . The good times can really build a faith - the bad times really test our faith .

The pope isn't following the scriptures - Jesus died for our sins all of them so even if we are failing in our daily lives to do the right thing it doesn't mean we are less close to God .

I don't get the 'jesus died for our sins' concept.  

I can explain later bit busy at the moment .

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:The pope is judging people - he doesn't know how they practice their faith . He's judging which is wrong .

And you are judging him.
Again, people are quite within their rights to be critical of those who profess to follow the teachings of Jesus, but fall way short of doing so.
That includes the Pope and yourself.

Thorin wrote:

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:The pope is judging people - he doesn't know how they practice their faith . He's judging which is wrong .

And you are judging him.
Again, people are quite within their rights to be critical of those who profess to follow the teachings of Jesus, but fall way short of doing so.
That includes the Pope and yourself.

Yep but I am okay with that he isn't anything to do with my salvation only God is , the same as his judging others for the way they live their lives and their faith . The final judgement is from God and i have a feeling the pope and others before him will be disappointed if they didn't accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour .

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:

Thorin wrote:

And you are judging him.
Again, people are quite within their rights to be critical of those who profess to follow the teachings of Jesus, but fall way short of doing so.
That includes the Pope and yourself.

Yep but I am okay with that he isn't anything to do with my salvation only God is , the same as his judging others for the way they live their lives and their faith . The final judgement is from God and i have a feeling the pope and others before him will be disappointed if they didn't accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour .

But you do judge him automatically by the very aspect of the views of the Christianity that you follow.
You do realise that Dibs? A believer of one sect automatically believes the other is wrong in their view point.
Also if judging is wrong, why would it be right for a deity to judge, when as written this deity is happy to commit genocide to innocents? You also just proved my point by judging others. Showing what is wrong with religion. That if we do not through fear, love or follow the views of this abuser. One that is formed from conditional love, that they will suffer for this. 

You tell me Dibs? If two parents who created a child and threatened them with unimaginable pain. Through torture for the rest of their days. If they did not believe in the same beliefs as them or love them. Then carried this through, if they did not. Would you not class that as child abuse?

He can only really speak for Catholics anyway - other Christians don't necessarily follow what he says or feel that he speaks for them.

Raggamuffin wrote:He can only really speak for Catholics anyway - other Christians don't necessarily follow what he says or feel that he speaks for them.

Of course he can speak about all Christians, if they fail to follow the teachings of Jesus in the gospels that correlate..
You do not have to be a Catholic or a Protestant to do that Rags.
Where he would be hypocritical is the invented parts in Catholicism, not found in things Jesus said.
This the problem with Christianity to me. Instead of just learning from what he taught, people deified a great teacher, instead of actually following what he taught.

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:He can only really speak for Catholics anyway - other Christians don't necessarily follow what he says or feel that he speaks for them.

Of course he can speak about all Christians, if they fail to follow the teachings of Jesus in the gospels that correlate..
You do not have to be a Catholic or a Protestant to do that Rags.
Where he would be hypocritical is the invented parts in Catholicism, not found in things Jesus said.
This the problem with Christianity to me. Instead of just learning from what he taught, people deified a great teacher, instead of actually following what he taught.

He can speak about them if he wants, but he can't influence them or instruct them - they do not all follow his teachings, perhaps because they do not agree with the stance that the Pope has a special relationship with God.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Of course he can speak about all Christians, if they fail to follow the teachings of Jesus in the gospels that correlate..
You do not have to be a Catholic or a Protestant to do that Rags.
Where he would be hypocritical is the invented parts in Catholicism, not found in things Jesus said.
This the problem with Christianity to me. Instead of just learning from what he taught, people deified a great teacher, instead of actually following what he taught.

He can speak about them if he wants, but he can't influence them or instruct them - they do not all follow his teachings, perhaps because they do not agree with the stance that the Pope has a special relationship with God.

Not sure I agree, he cannot influence Christians to his views, when there is a round a billion Catholics Rags.
Whether people agree on or not. On whether he should lead Christianity, should not mean they cannot find common ground on the teachings, should it not? 
Anyway, the Catholic Church's history is riddled with corruption, dishonesty, greed, murder etc.

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

He can speak about them if he wants, but he can't influence them or instruct them - they do not all follow his teachings, perhaps because they do not agree with the stance that the Pope has a special relationship with God.

Not sure I agree, he cannot influence Christians to his views, when there is a round a billion Catholics Rags.
Whether people agree on or not. On whether he should lead Christianity, should not mean they cannot find common ground on the teachings, should it not? 
Anyway, the Catholic Church's history is riddled with corruption, dishonesty, greed, murder etc.

Of course he can influence Catholics - I'm talking about Christians who aren't Catholics.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Not sure I agree, he cannot influence Christians to his views, when there is a round a billion Catholics Rags.
Whether people agree on or not. On whether he should lead Christianity, should not mean they cannot find common ground on the teachings, should it not? 
Anyway, the Catholic Church's history is riddled with corruption, dishonesty, greed, murder etc.

Of course he can influence Catholics - I'm talking about Christians who aren't Catholics.

Yes, but he can influence non-Catholics to become Catholics Rags. Including other Christians.

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Of course he can influence Catholics - I'm talking about Christians who aren't Catholics.

Yes, but he can influence non-Catholics to become Catholics Rags. Including other Christians.

He could - if they want to believe what Catholics believe. That's not really the point though. For many Christians who are not Catholics, and never intend to become Catholics, he doesn't influence them.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:Each of us are hypocrites at some point in our lives - are any of us perfect ?

Faith is a personal journey and it grows with experience . The good times can really build a faith - the bad times really test our faith .

The pope isn't following the scriptures - Jesus died for our sins all of them so even if we are failing in our daily lives to do the right thing it doesn't mean we are less close to God .

I don't get the 'jesus died for our sins' concept.  

It starts with the idea that sin separates you from God and thus dooms you to hell when you die ("The wages of sin is death"). In the Old Testament, people used to sacrifice animals to pay for their sins. God even asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, but was like "j/k, lol" at the last second.

God sent Jesus (God in human form, which is a tricky subject unto itself) to sacrifice himself to pay for the sins of everyone who believes in him.

Ben Reilly wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

I don't get the 'jesus died for our sins' concept.  

It starts with the idea that sin separates you from God and thus dooms you to hell when you die ("The wages of sin is death"). In the Old Testament, people used to sacrifice animals to pay for their sins. God even asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, but was like "j/k, lol" at the last second.

God sent Jesus (God in human form, which is a tricky subject unto itself) to sacrifice himself to pay for the sins of everyone who believes in him.

The Old Testament sacrifice of animals cleansed you from sin for a year - Jesus's sacrifice is eternal . So the idea that we can sin and lose our salvation doesn't fit with Jesus's sacrifice because the gospel of grace is said to be more glorious than the law covenant - so it makes no sense that the blood of a bull can cover your sins competently for one year yet some would preach that the blood of Christ is cancelled out by your next sin .

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:

Ben Reilly wrote:

It starts with the idea that sin separates you from God and thus dooms you to hell when you die ("The wages of sin is death"). In the Old Testament, people used to sacrifice animals to pay for their sins. God even asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, but was like "j/k, lol" at the last second.

God sent Jesus (God in human form, which is a tricky subject unto itself) to sacrifice himself to pay for the sins of everyone who believes in him.

The Old Testament sacrifice of animals cleansed you from sin for a year - Jesus's sacrifice is eternal . So the idea that we can sin and lose our salvation doesn't fit with Jesus's sacrifice  because the gospel of grace is said to be more glorious than the law covenant - so it makes no sense that the blood of a bull can cover your sins competently for one year yet some would preach that the blood of Christ is cancelled out by your next sin .

Why would Jesus need to sacrifice himself, for something he created and invented?
The original sin.
Humanity would not exist but just Adam and Eve without this pre-conceived plan, to create them both with the mentality of children, not knowing right and wrong. To then blame them, when they are innocent of right and wrong, for a wrong this deity created. That to be free to think for yourself is wrong.
Not sure how this is a sin or why since women have been blamed eternally for this conniving and underhanded plan by this deity.

Oh and another thing. If you are teaching a two year old not to do something. You don't place them right next to a loaded gun, then walk away and expect them not to touch it and play with it. As they are inquisitive toddlers and cannot comprehend if it is wrong to do so. Hence this preconceived plan to place blame on innocents for something set up, is devious and quite frankly wrong.

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:Each of us are hypocrites at some point in our lives - are any of us perfect ?

Faith is a personal journey and it grows with experience . The good times can really build a faith - the bad times really test our faith .

The pope isn't following the scriptures - Jesus died for our sins all of them so even if we are failing in our daily lives to do the right thing it doesn't mean we are less close to God .

In every version BUT the evangelicals it does mean you are less close to God

the forgiveness is for the sins you had before becoming Christian, if you claim to be Christian and then fail to follow the doctrine than you are going to hell
in every version but the most modern unbiblical one which is just as I said
be evil and ask the zombie son of a sky giant for forgiveness and it's ok not need to ACTUALLY have morals

Your faith is meaningless, just lip service if it is NOT followed with dedicating your life to the Ideals and teachings of Christ.
which is what the Pope is saying YOUR FAITH alone, doesn't make you GOOD, Being GOOD makes you good.

the fact that you think you can comment on the Dedication of Pope Francis has show towards the teaching of Christ and compare your self when all you have is lip service is pathetic and shows what sort of terrible human being you are.. If you where good then you would have no issue with what he says But AS you acknowledge that you are not good and all you have is 'faith in forgiveness' you are just pathetic, no version but the monetary driven evangelicals believe that And the Money driven where the ONLY group of people Jesus was actually violent against.

Ben Reilly wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:Each of us are hypocrites at some point in our lives - are any of us perfect ?

Faith is a personal journey and it grows with experience . The good times can really build a faith - the bad times really test our faith .

The pope isn't following the scriptures - Jesus died for our sins all of them so even if we are failing in our daily lives to do the right thing it doesn't mean we are less close to God .

I don't get the 'jesus died for our sins' concept.  

It starts with the idea that sin separates you from God and thus dooms you to hell when you die ("The wages of sin is death"). In the Old Testament, people used to sacrifice animals to pay for their sins. God even asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, but was like "j/k, lol" at the last second.

God sent Jesus (God in human form, which is a tricky subject unto itself) to sacrifice himself to pay for the sins of everyone who believes in him.

this is cleared up in book 3 (Koran) Jesus was the son of god like all people are the children of god, he is a prophet like Moses and Mohammad.

as I have said before stopping at book 2 is as silly as not watching the 3rd star wars film and claiming to be fan

veya_victaous wrote:

Ben Reilly wrote:

It starts with the idea that sin separates you from God and thus dooms you to hell when you die ("The wages of sin is death"). In the Old Testament, people used to sacrifice animals to pay for their sins. God even asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, but was like "j/k, lol" at the last second.

God sent Jesus (God in human form, which is a tricky subject unto itself) to sacrifice himself to pay for the sins of everyone who believes in him.

this is cleared up in book 3 (Koran) Jesus was the son of god like all people are the children of god, he is a prophet like Moses and Mohammad.

as I have said before stopping at book 2 is as silly as not watching the 3rd star wars film and claiming to be fan

Cleared up?

Its about as cleared up as anyone suffering from hearing voices in their head

Islam makes the most outlandish and proven aspect why Islam, like Christianity is bullshit.
That allah, fooled people into believing Jesus died and rose again. That he deceived them.
Now you tell me, would you place your trust in such a person?

Hence why religions are based on bullshit and even worse play off nonsense to promote their nonsense.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Of course he can influence Catholics - I'm talking about Christians who aren't Catholics.

Yes, but he can influence non-Catholics to become Catholics Rags. Including other Christians.

He could - if they want to believe what Catholics believe. That's not really the point though. For many Christians who are not Catholics, and never intend to become Catholics, he doesn't influence them.

another with nothing but lip service

even as a devout heretic, worshipper of Ancient serpent gods, I can acknowledge that Pope Francis is a Good man and truly devoted to the teachings of Christ, as closes to Christ in action as any pope in living memory. and Vastly closer than any born again, protestant or evangelical that thinks that 'Faith' is the important part of Christ's message


Try following the teaching of Christ instead of trying to find loophole to allow your evil soul in to heaven

Thorin wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

Ben Reilly wrote:

It starts with the idea that sin separates you from God and thus dooms you to hell when you die ("The wages of sin is death"). In the Old Testament, people used to sacrifice animals to pay for their sins. God even asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, but was like "j/k, lol" at the last second.

God sent Jesus (God in human form, which is a tricky subject unto itself) to sacrifice himself to pay for the sins of everyone who believes in him.

this is cleared up in book 3 (Koran) Jesus was the son of god like all people are the children of god, he is a prophet like Moses and Mohammad.

as I have said before stopping at book 2 is as silly as not watching the 3rd star wars film and claiming to be fan

Cleared up?

Its about as cleared up as anyone suffering from hearing voices in their head

Islam makes the most outlandish and proven aspect why Islam, like Christianity is bullshit.
That allah, fooled people into believing Jesus died and rose again. That he deceived them.
Now you tell me, would you place your trust in such a person?

Hence why religions are based on bullshit and even worse play off nonsense to promote their nonsense.

yes Cleared Up,
like the 2nd Star Wars Film Cleared up the relationship between Luke and Vader

I'm not really a fan of either trilogy but it doesn't mean I can't watch the films or read the books

In My faith (that I make up myself and has no text or books of it's own) the Abrahamic god, is the god of lies and deception because of his obviously False assertion delivered by his prophets.

In saying that it doesn't mean that you can not take heed of lessons where every they are found and Many of Christ's teaching are good, one should try and be kind, honest and not be consumed with greed.
The 'have faith and it's ok to be evil' is clearly added after he died and I severely doubt that the real man that was Jesus would have supported it..

veya_victaous wrote:

Thorin wrote:



Cleared up?

Its about as cleared up as anyone suffering from hearing voices in their head

Islam makes the most outlandish and proven aspect why Islam, like Christianity is bullshit.
That allah, fooled people into believing Jesus died and rose again. That he deceived them.
Now you tell me, would you place your trust in such a person?

Hence why religions are based on bullshit and even worse play off nonsense to promote their nonsense.

yes Cleared Up,
like the 2nd Star Wars Film Cleared up the relationship between Luke and Vader

I'm not really a fan of either trilogy but it doesn't mean I can't watch the films or read the books

In My faith (that I make up myself and has no text or books of it's own) the Abrahamic god, is the god of lies and deception because of his obviously False assertion delivered by his prophets.

In saying that it doesn't mean that you can not take heed of lessons where every they are found and Many of Christ's teaching are good, one should try and be kind, honest and not be consumed with greed.
The 'have faith and it's ok to be evil' is clearly added after he died and I severely doubt that the real man that was Jesus would have supported it..

I respect that point on what you believe, because it does not effect anyone else Veya
All of the Prophets have some good aspects, but they are minimal, even when it comes to Jesus. Who advocates family abandonment.
I agree though, some of his teachings are good and based on Liberal principles.
Its a shame people deified him and fucked up his message mate.
So I agree, I doubt he would have supported many views Christians hold today.

Night Veya

veya_victaous wrote:

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:Each of us are hypocrites at some point in our lives - are any of us perfect ?

Faith is a personal journey and it grows with experience . The good times can really build a faith - the bad times really test our faith .

The pope isn't following the scriptures - Jesus died for our sins all of them so even if we are failing in our daily lives to do the right thing it doesn't mean we are less close to God .

In every version BUT the evangelicals it does mean you are less close to God

the forgiveness is for the sins you had before becoming Christian, if you claim to be Christian and then fail to follow the doctrine than you are going to hell
in every version but the most modern unbiblical one which is just as I said
be evil and ask the zombie son of a sky giant for forgiveness and it's ok not need to ACTUALLY have morals

Your faith is meaningless, just lip service if it is NOT followed with dedicating your life to the Ideals and teachings of Christ.
which is what the Pope is saying YOUR FAITH alone, doesn't make you GOOD, Being GOOD makes you good.

the fact that you think you can comment on the Dedication of Pope Francis has show towards the teaching of Christ and compare your self when all you have is lip service is pathetic and shows what sort of terrible human being you are.. If you where good then you would have no issue with what he says But AS you acknowledge that you are not good and all you have is 'faith in forgiveness' you are just pathetic, no version but the monetary driven evangelicals believe that And the Money driven where the ONLY group of people Jesus was actually violent against.

Too true,  that  !!!

The Evangelical/"Born Again" movement --  born in to the USA to help those money grubbibg, greed-fuelled, uncaring, anti-social, hedonistic oxygen thieves feel better about themselves..

More than two billion Christians in this world, and yet less than 7.5% belong to those "born again" sects/schisms/cults.

remember, What Would Jesus Do?

if you are a money grubber he'd the throw tables at you and chase you out with a whip.

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:

Ben Reilly wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

I don't get the 'jesus died for our sins' concept.  

It starts with the idea that sin separates you from God and thus dooms you to hell when you die ("The wages of sin is death"). In the Old Testament, people used to sacrifice animals to pay for their sins. God even asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, but was like "j/k, lol" at the last second.

God sent Jesus (God in human form, which is a tricky subject unto itself) to sacrifice himself to pay for the sins of everyone who believes in him.

The Old Testament sacrifice of animals cleansed you from sin for a year - Jesus's sacrifice is eternal . So the idea that we can sin and lose our salvation doesn't fit with Jesus's sacrifice  because the gospel of grace is said to be more glorious than the law covenant - so it makes no sense that the blood of a bull can cover your sins competently for one year yet some would preach that the blood of Christ is cancelled out by your next sin .

So I'm still saved even though I don't believe anymore -- awesome. See ya in Heaven!

Ben Reilly wrote:

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:

The Old Testament sacrifice of animals cleansed you from sin for a year - Jesus's sacrifice is eternal . So the idea that we can sin and lose our salvation doesn't fit with Jesus's sacrifice  because the gospel of grace is said to be more glorious than the law covenant - so it makes no sense that the blood of a bull can cover your sins competently for one year yet some would preach that the blood of Christ is cancelled out by your next sin .

So I'm still saved even though I don't believe anymore -- awesome. See ya in Heaven!

Yes you are - when you accepted Christ you were sealed by the Holy Spirit and that seal can never be broken even by your disbelief . That's being saved by grace .

veya_victaous wrote:

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:Each of us are hypocrites at some point in our lives - are any of us perfect ?

Faith is a personal journey and it grows with experience . The good times can really build a faith - the bad times really test our faith .

The pope isn't following the scriptures - Jesus died for our sins all of them so even if we are failing in our daily lives to do the right thing it doesn't mean we are less close to God .

In every version BUT the evangelicals it does mean you are less close to God

the forgiveness is for the sins you had before becoming Christian, if you claim to be Christian and then fail to follow the doctrine than you are going to hell
in every version but the most modern unbiblical one which is just as I said
be evil and ask the zombie son of a sky giant for forgiveness and it's ok not need to ACTUALLY have morals

Your faith is meaningless, just lip service if it is NOT followed with dedicating your life to the Ideals and teachings of Christ.
which is what the Pope is saying YOUR FAITH alone, doesn't make you GOOD, Being GOOD makes you good.

the fact that you think you can comment on the Dedication of Pope Francis has show towards the teaching of Christ and compare your self when all you have is lip service is pathetic and shows what sort of terrible human being you are.. If you where good then you would have no issue with what he says But AS you acknowledge that you are not good and all you have is 'faith in forgiveness' you are just pathetic, no version but the monetary driven evangelicals believe that And the Money driven where the ONLY group of people Jesus was actually violent against.

Actually Jesus spoke most against the teachers of the law -people like the pope .Anyone who sinned who came to Jesus was forgiven even those who were sick were healed .
You seem to be a bit of an expert here - so can you explain why it was so important that at the death of Christ the temple curtain was ripped completely and why if we have to be so perfect did Jesus say to the thief on the Cross 'today you will be with me in paradise' clearly the man wasn't perfect and clearly the man had done no good deeds .

Ben Reilly wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

I don't get the 'jesus died for our sins' concept.  

It starts with the idea that sin separates you from God and thus dooms you to hell when you die ("The wages of sin is death"). In the Old Testament, people used to sacrifice animals to pay for their sins. God even asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, but was like "j/k, lol" at the last second.

God sent Jesus (God in human form, which is a tricky subject unto itself) to sacrifice himself to pay for the sins of everyone who believes in him.

I don't believe the 'message' of Christ's crucifixion was to die for our sins.   There's no spiritual logic to that.  But rather to show that no matter how horrible the world is to us, forgiveness and love is the key to spiritual development.   And the resurrection was to show that there is life after death and not a hell we burn in.   I don't believe in hell and I don't believe in the Christian concept of Heaven.

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:

Ben Reilly wrote:

It starts with the idea that sin separates you from God and thus dooms you to hell when you die ("The wages of sin is death"). In the Old Testament, people used to sacrifice animals to pay for their sins. God even asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, but was like "j/k, lol" at the last second.

God sent Jesus (God in human form, which is a tricky subject unto itself) to sacrifice himself to pay for the sins of everyone who believes in him.

The Old Testament sacrifice of animals cleansed you from sin for a year - Jesus's sacrifice is eternal . So the idea that we can sin and lose our salvation doesn't fit with Jesus's sacrifice  because the gospel of grace is said to be more glorious than the law covenant - so it makes no sense that the blood of a bull can cover your sins competently for one year yet some would preach that the blood of Christ is cancelled out by your next sin .

I also don't get that Catholics think they can go to confession, say a few Hail Mary's to atone, and then go out to rinse and repeat.   I do, however, believe in karma.

veya_victaous wrote:remember, What Would Jesus Do?

if you are a money grubber he'd the throw tables at you and chase you out with a whip.  

Which kind of illustrates that he had weaknesses too, and was just as capable of making mistakes and losing his rag as the rest of us.

Ben Reilly wrote:

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:

The Old Testament sacrifice of animals cleansed you from sin for a year - Jesus's sacrifice is eternal . So the idea that we can sin and lose our salvation doesn't fit with Jesus's sacrifice  because the gospel of grace is said to be more glorious than the law covenant - so it makes no sense that the blood of a bull can cover your sins competently for one year yet some would preach that the blood of Christ is cancelled out by your next sin .

So I'm still saved even though I don't believe anymore -- awesome. See ya in Heaven!

You were never 'not saved' in the first place.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Ben Reilly wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

I don't get the 'jesus died for our sins' concept.  

It starts with the idea that sin separates you from God and thus dooms you to hell when you die ("The wages of sin is death"). In the Old Testament, people used to sacrifice animals to pay for their sins. God even asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, but was like "j/k, lol" at the last second.

God sent Jesus (God in human form, which is a tricky subject unto itself) to sacrifice himself to pay for the sins of everyone who believes in him.

I don't believe the 'message' of Christ's crucifixion was to die for our sins.   There's no spiritual logic to that.  But rather to show that no matter how horrible the world is to us, forgiveness and love is the key to spiritual development.   And the resurrection was to show that there is life after death and not a hell we burn in.   I don't believe eve in hell and I don't believe in the Christian concept of Heaven.

All I did was flesh out John 3:16 a little. That verse is about as succinct of an expression of what Christianity means as you can find.

The Pope is right anyway. It's better to not do something than do it badly.

veya_victaous wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

He could - if they want to believe what Catholics believe. That's not really the point though. For many Christians who are not Catholics, and never intend to become Catholics, he doesn't influence them.

another with nothing but lip service  

even as a devout heretic, worshipper of Ancient serpent gods, I can acknowledge that Pope Francis is a Good man and truly devoted to the teachings of Christ, as closes to Christ in action as any pope in living memory. and Vastly closer than any born again, protestant or evangelical that thinks that 'Faith' is the important part of Christ's message


Try following the teaching of Christ instead of trying to find loophole to allow your evil soul in to heaven

You got there in the end - well done.

eddie wrote:The Pope is right anyway. It's better to not do something than do it badly.

Having faith isn't the same as "doing something".

What amazes me is that people seem to think that the Pope said something original. He didn't - it's something that many people say - often with the intention of abusing those with faith. Mrs Jones down the road might have said it, but it wouldn't be in the papers.

It's not for the Pope to decide who has the right to call themselves a believer or not IMO. Catholics might follow what he says, but other Christians do not - they follow what their faith says, and/or what the Bible says.

It's also amazing how many atheists on here are suddenly so impressed with the leader of the Catholic Church, and suddenly seem to believe in Heaven.

My question is - if a Muslim commits an act of terrorism, is he/she still not a Muslim?

Raggamuffin wrote:

eddie wrote:The Pope is right anyway. It's better to not do something than do it badly.

Having faith isn't the same as "doing something".

What amazes me is that people seem to think that the Pope said something original. He didn't - it's something that many people say - often with the intention of abusing those with faith. Mrs Jones down the road might have said it, but it wouldn't be in the papers.

It's not for the Pope to decide who has the right to call themselves a believer or not IMO.  Catholics might follow what he says, but other Christians do not - they follow what their faith says, and/or what the Bible says.

It's also amazing how many atheists on here are suddenly so impressed with the leader of the Catholic Church, and suddenly seem to believe in Heaven.

My question is - if a Muslim commits an act of terrorism, is he/she still not a Muslim?

Of course they are a Muslim, if that is the religion they believe in.
Nobody can deny anyone their right to what religion they follow, when its based off a belief system, which vastly lacks any valid historicity to the historical Muhammad. Let alone, its claims are based on faith, not evidence. It does not matter if other Muslims claim they are not, as non of them can first of all prove their deity exists, validate the Quran and the hadiths. Its based on faith and interpretations of the works. The same in Christianity. Though everyone has a right to challenge followers of that faith based on the works and teachings themselves.

The Pope was not even saying whether they could be Christian or not. He stated, if they were bad Christians, they might as well be atheists. He never stated they have to renounce their faith.

Also how many atheists claimed to believe in heaven here?

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Having faith isn't the same as "doing something".

What amazes me is that people seem to think that the Pope said something original. He didn't - it's something that many people say - often with the intention of abusing those with faith. Mrs Jones down the road might have said it, but it wouldn't be in the papers.

It's not for the Pope to decide who has the right to call themselves a believer or not IMO.  Catholics might follow what he says, but other Christians do not - they follow what their faith says, and/or what the Bible says.

It's also amazing how many atheists on here are suddenly so impressed with the leader of the Catholic Church, and suddenly seem to believe in Heaven.

My question is - if a Muslim commits an act of terrorism, is he/she still not a Muslim?

Of course they are a Muslim, if that is the religion they believe in.
Nobody can deny anyone their right to what religion they follow, when its based off a belief system, which vastly lacks any valid historicity to the historical Muhammad. Let alone, its claims are based on faith, not evidence. It does not matter if other Muslims claim they are not, as non of them can first of all prove their deity exists, validate the Quran and the hadiths. Its based on faith and interpretations of the works. The same in Christianity. Though everyone has a right to challenge followers of that faith based on the works themselves.

The Pope was not even saying whether they could be Christian or not. He stated, if they were bad Christians, they might as well be atheists. He never stated they have to renounce their faith.

Also how many atheists claimed to believe in heaven here?

I agree that they're a Muslim, but some say they're not - they say a "real" Muslim wouldn't do such a thing.

In the same way, Christians are still Christians whatever the Pope thinks they should call themselves if they do things he doesn't approve of.

He didn't say they "might as well be atheists". Actually, he didn't say much at all - it's others who seem to be putting words in his mouth. He appears to be claiming that others say it's better to be an atheist than a Catholic "like that".

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:

Of course they are a Muslim, if that is the religion they believe in.
Nobody can deny anyone their right to what religion they follow, when its based off a belief system, which vastly lacks any valid historicity to the historical Muhammad. Let alone, its claims are based on faith, not evidence. It does not matter if other Muslims claim they are not, as non of them can first of all prove their deity exists, validate the Quran and the hadiths. Its based on faith and interpretations of the works. The same in Christianity. Though everyone has a right to challenge followers of that faith based on the works themselves.

The Pope was not even saying whether they could be Christian or not. He stated, if they were bad Christians, they might as well be atheists. He never stated they have to renounce their faith.

Also how many atheists claimed to believe in heaven here?

I agree that they're a Muslim, but some say they're not - they say a "real" Muslim wouldn't do such a thing.

In the same way, Christians are still Christians whatever the Pope thinks they should call themselves if they do things he doesn't approve of.

He didn't say they "might as well be atheists". Actually, he didn't say much at all - it's others who seem to be putting words in his mouth. He appears to be claiming that others say it's better to be an atheist than a Catholic "like that".

Agreed that anyone who states they are a follower of a religion, then they are.
As to what the Pope says, he can be critical of believers, just like anyone else.
Where again nobody has a right to deny people classifying themselves a follower of a religion. Like Isaid, nobody can prove who is right on how to follow said myth.

Also you do realise that atheists can believe in an afterlife?
I don't myself, but by definition, it would not contradict with Atheism.
They would simple not believe in any Gods, but an afterlife