Two children sentenced to minimum 20 years for double murder.

by Syl Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:31 pm

First topic message reminder :

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/nov/10/teenagers-jailed-for-at-least-20-years-for-spalding-murders-elizabeth-katie-edwards

"]A girl and boy aged 15 have been sentenced to a minimum of 20 years in detention for murdering a mother and daughter as they slept in their beds.
The teenagers, who cannot be named for legal reasons, stabbed and smothered Elizabeth Edwards, 49, and her daughter Katie, 13, to death at their home in Spalding, Lincolnshire, on 13 April this year. They then shared a bath, had sex and watched the Twilight vampire movies. Both were 14 at the time of the killings. They are believed to be the UK’s youngest ever double-murderers.
Sentencing both to life, Mr Justice Haddon-Cave told a packed courtroom at Nottingham crown court that the killings were “a terrible crime with few parallels in modern criminal history”.
The murders had been “brutal ... almost in the form of an execution”, the judge said. He told the pair: “Both of you are perfectly intelligent and knew exactly what you were doing – either of you could have backed out at any time but you were selfishly determined to do it together.” They had “revelled” in their actions, the judge added.
Neither the boy nor the girl reacted as the sentence was delivered. As the judge spoke, a family member wept quietly in the public gallery."

Is this a fair and just sentence?

by Syl Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:33 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Syl wrote:

I think that's just the way you are reading it.
I haven't said anything of the sort and it's definitely not what I believe.

Well perhaps you need to rephrase what you're saying then.

Perhaps you need to read what I am saying instead of putting your own spin on my words.

I have never said the murderers are the 'victims' neither have I said they should be 'happy' or 'get over' what they did.

by Raggamuffin Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:48 pm

Syl wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Well perhaps you need to rephrase what you're saying then.

Perhaps you need to read what I am saying instead of putting your own spin on my words.

I have never said the murderers are the 'victims' neither have I said they should be 'happy' or 'get over' what they did.

You said they will "move on" and hopefully lead a productive life. That tells me that you hope they get over what they did and have a happy life. My point is that if they do that, they will not have shown remorse. Remorse isn't something you just express and then "get over".

by Original Quill Sat Nov 12, 2016 4:27 pm

Syl wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Even if they can be "rehabilitated" so that they show remorse and feel guilt, won't they suffer even more? They won't be able to take back what they did or make up for it. Perhaps that's the real punishment.

I agree that IF they ever can be rehabilitated back into society when the time comes it wont be easy.
But it has ben e done ...Mary Bell and Robert Thompson seem to have managed, but as children who kill (in recent times) are few and far between there is not much evidence either way.

I don't know how they will ever be able to come to terms with what they did and move on, but that's why they need all the help they can get if it's to be achieved.

They don't need any help at all. Help for what? What makes you contemplate the need fro help? Put 'em in the hole and let 'em rot...you won't have to worry about help.

by Syl Sat Nov 12, 2016 4:52 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Syl wrote:

Perhaps you need to read what I am saying instead of putting your own spin on my words.

I have never said the murderers are the 'victims' neither have I said they should be 'happy' or 'get over' what they did.

You said they will "move on" and hopefully lead a productive life. That tells me that you hope they get over what they did and have a happy life. My point is that if they do that, they will not have shown remorse. Remorse isn't something you just express and then "get over".

Move on ..as in accept what they have done and show remorse.
Move on ..as in when 20 years are up they will be assessed and if they are considered fit to be let out into society they will be.
I think I have already said I don't know how they will ever be able to achieve this and that's why they will need all the help they can get.

You it seems would prefer to let two incredibly damaged people back into society as fully formed adults.
I don't see the sense in that.

by Raggamuffin Sat Nov 12, 2016 4:54 pm

Syl wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

You said they will "move on" and hopefully lead a productive life. That tells me that you hope they get over what they did and have a happy life. My point is that if they do that, they will not have shown remorse. Remorse isn't something you just express and then "get over".

Move on ..as in accept what they have done and show remorse.
Move on ..as in when 20 years are up they will be assessed and if they are considered fit to be let out into society they will be.
I think I have already said I don't know how they will ever be able to achieve this and that's why they will need all the help they can get.

You it seems would prefer to let two incredibly damaged people back into society as fully formed adults.
I don't see the sense in that.

There you go again - describing them as "damaged", thereby implying that they're victims. The victims are dead and their friends and family will probably never get over it. They're the ones who need help.

I hope those two are not let out after 20 years - it's just a minimum after all.

by Raggamuffin Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:02 pm

If they are let out, the best incentive for them to never commit another crime is for them to have hated prison so much that they don't want to go back.

by Syl Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:11 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:If they are let out, the best incentive for them to never commit another crime is for them to have hated prison so much that they don't want to go back.

They wont know anything else though, and many long term prisoners prefer the security that prison brings them and fear the outside world, so that theory wouldn't necessarily work.

In any case surely it's better to not commit crime because you know it's wrong rather than not commit crime simply because you don't want to be jailed again.

by Raggamuffin Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:13 pm

Syl wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:If they are let out, the best incentive for them to never commit another crime is for them to have hated prison so much that they don't want to go back.

They wont know anything else though, and many long term prisoners prefer the security that prison brings them and fear the outside world, so that theory wouldn't necessarily work.

In any case surely it's better to not commit crime because you know it's wrong rather than not commit crime simply because you don't want to be jailed again.

They already know it's wrong - that's why they tried to cover up what they did. They're not babies, and they knew what they were doing. People wouldn't want to go back to jail if it wasn't so easy there.

I'm losing patience with your attitude tbh. You just defend and excuse those two over and over again.

by Syl Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:21 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Syl wrote:

They wont know anything else though, and many long term prisoners prefer the security that prison brings them and fear the outside world, so that theory wouldn't necessarily work.

In any case surely it's better to not commit crime because you know it's wrong rather than not commit crime simply because you don't want to be jailed again.

They already know it's wrong - that's why they tried to cover up what they did. They're not babies, and they knew what they were doing. People wouldn't want to go back to jail if it wasn't so easy there.

I'm losing patience with your attitude tbh. You just defend and excuse those two over and over again.

I'm not defending them, I am correcting you when you try to twist my words.
I am also, rather than just wanting them to rot for 20 years then be released more dangerous than they are now, looking for ways to make the situation better.

by HoratioTarr Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:03 pm

Syl wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

They already know it's wrong - that's why they tried to cover up what they did. They're not babies, and they knew what they were doing. People wouldn't want to go back to jail if it wasn't so easy there.

I'm losing patience with your attitude tbh. You just defend and excuse those two over and over again.

I'm not defending them, I am correcting you when you try to twist my words.
I am also, rather than just wanting them to rot for 20 years then be released more dangerous than they are now, looking for ways to make the situation better.

It''s broken. You can't unscramble an egg.

by HoratioTarr Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:05 pm

Syl wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

It's rare for kids to kill, but common for kids to be cruel. Most people grow out of that, but if you're a psychopath you don't ...you don't care or have empathy for suffering and never will. There's been plenty of adult psycho's who killled who had normal upbringings.

Adults psychos yes, people change when they mature.

Many adults can have had perfectly good upbringings and commit horrible crimes, if kids are brought up with love and guidance then they don't.

There can always be the exception to the rule, but I believe if a kid shows signs early on of being cruel to animals or others, they can be helped... as long as someone is around them that cares.

Bad people don't change...they just become more so.

by Tommy Monk Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:06 pm

Make the situation better for who Syl...?

by HoratioTarr Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:06 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

Well, I guess anyone who takes delight in torturing and killing isn't quite right in the head. Ian Brady was a typical psychopath, but was Myra Hindley? Not sure that she was. She was damaged goods, however. Either way, those two combined were a lethal mix, each enabling the other to commit the crimes they did.

We don't know if they would have done anything on their own. I don't think she would have, but I'm not sure I believe that business about a lethal mix. I think one can influence the other, but Brady may well have found someone else to do his dirty work if he hadn't met Hindley.

Yes. Brady was torturing animals as a kid. He may even have killed before he met Hindley...she enabled him to lure those kids into the car, as they would have been a little more trusting of a woman.

by Guest Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:07 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Syl wrote:

Adults psychos yes, people change when they mature.

Many adults can have had perfectly good upbringings and commit horrible crimes, if kids are brought up with love and guidance then they don't.

There can always be the exception to the rule, but I believe if a kid shows signs early on of being cruel to animals or others, they can be helped... as long as someone is around them that cares.

Bad people don't change...they just become more so.

Jesus said otherwise.

by Tommy Monk Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:11 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

We don't know if they would have done anything on their own. I don't think she would have, but I'm not sure I believe that business about a lethal mix. I think one can influence the other, but Brady may well have found someone else to do his dirty work if he hadn't met Hindley.

Yes. Brady was torturing animals as a kid. He may even have killed before he met Hindley...she enabled him to lure those kids into the car, as they would have been a little more trusting of a woman.

But in this op case, it was the girl who was the instigator/leader...

by HoratioTarr Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:13 pm

Ziz wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

Bad people don't change...they just become more so.

Jesus said otherwise.

What the fuck has Jesus got to do with anything?

by Original Quill Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:19 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Ziz wrote:

Jesus said otherwise.

What the fuck has Jesus got to do with anything?

He's a good source. Basically, he's the father of humanism.

by Syl Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:23 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Make the situation better for who Syl...?

For the people they come into contact when they are released.
For the children they may have, they will both still be of child bearing age.
For their families.
For themselves.

by HoratioTarr Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:25 pm

Original Quill wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

What the fuck has Jesus got to do with anything?

He's a good source. Basically, he's the father of humanism.

Don't believe everything you read in the Bible.

by HoratioTarr Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:26 pm

Syl wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Make the situation better for who Syl...?

For the people they come into contact when they are released.
For the children they may have, they will both still be of child bearing age.
For their families.
For themselves.

The first step on that path is to obtain the forgiveness of your victims loved ones.

by Syl Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:28 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Syl wrote:

Adults psychos yes, people change when they mature.

Many adults can have had perfectly good upbringings and commit horrible crimes, if kids are brought up with love and guidance then they don't.

There can always be the exception to the rule, but I believe if a kid shows signs early on of being cruel to animals or others, they can be helped... as long as someone is around them that cares.

Bad people don't change...they just become more so.

With love, guidance and understanding these two would probably never have killed.
It's to late now to undo what they have done, but is it too late to try to make them change?
I believe people, especially young people can and do change.

by Syl Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:29 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Syl wrote:
For the people they come into contact when they are released.
For the children they may have, they will both still be of child bearing age.
For their families.
For themselves.

The first step on that path is to obtain the forgiveness of your victims loved ones.

That's probably not possible.

by Tommy Monk Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:39 pm

Syl wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Make the situation better for who Syl...?

For the people they come into contact when they are released.
For the children they may have, they will both still be of child bearing age.
For their families.
For themselves.

So just better for them then...!?

Do you really think either of them should ever be allowed anywhere near children... let alone be allowed to have and keep custody of any of their own children...?

The best thing for the rest of us would be to take them out the back and shoot them...

by Syl Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:44 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Syl wrote:
For the people they come into contact when they are released.
For the children they may have, they will both still be of child bearing age.
For their families.
For themselves.

So just better for them then...!?

.

Didn't you see the three lines I wrote above the fourth one Tommy? Rolling Eyes

by HoratioTarr Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:47 pm

Syl wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

The first step on that path is to obtain the forgiveness of your victims loved ones.

That's probably not possible.

Then like I said...you can't unscramble an egg.

by Syl Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:02 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Syl wrote:

That's probably not possible.

Then like I said...you can't unscramble an egg.

Obviously you cant undo what's already been done, no one said you could.

by Tommy Monk Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:05 pm

It would be better for everyone else if they werent released and didn't come into contact with anyone.

They should never be around children... and certainly never allowed to have children of their own and be allowed to have custody of them.

Better 'for their families'...?

What...?

You mean the families that it was earlier claimed on this thread that they had 'troubled upbringings' with...?

And what makes you think that either of their families will want them released or want anything to do with them if/when released after what they've done...?

(By which time they might not even have any family still alive!)

by Guest Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:07 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Ziz wrote:

Jesus said otherwise.

What the fuck has Jesus got to do with anything?

To some people Jesus has something to do with everything - but I'm content to simply cite the fact that he disagreed with your assertion.

by Tommy Monk Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:22 pm

Syl wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

Bad people don't change...they just become more so.

With love, guidance and understanding these two would probably never have killed.
It's to late now to undo what they have done, but is it too late to try to make them change?
I believe people, especially young people can and do change.

What are you saying woman...!!!???

These two weren't just a little bit naughty and just in need of a bit more love/guidance/understanding etc... they are cold blooded pre meditated murderers of a mother and her daughter in a most brutal and barbaric fashion while they each were asleep in their beds in their home!!!

The evil pair then stayed in the victims house for a few hours afterwards enjoying themselves having a bath and some sex and watching dvds together while the innocent victims both lay murdered upstairs in their beds!!!

by HoratioTarr Sat Nov 12, 2016 8:07 pm

Ziz wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

What the fuck has Jesus got to do with anything?

To some people Jesus has something to do with everything - but I'm content to simply cite the fact that he disagreed with your assertion.

In other words...you haven't really got a credible answer. What you were really doing with your Jesus post was trying to goad a certain person and playing to a certain gallery.

by Guest Sat Nov 12, 2016 8:11 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Ziz wrote:

To some people Jesus has something to do with everything - but I'm content to simply cite the fact that he disagreed with your assertion.

In other words...you haven't really got a credible answer. What you were really doing with your Jesus post was trying to goad a certain person and playing to a certain gallery.

I believe, as Jesus did, that bad people can change - perfectly credible.

And I am entitled to cite Jesus as anyone else on this forum - if anyone feels that they are being goaded by that then so be it.

by Tommy Monk Sat Nov 12, 2016 8:48 pm

Bad people can seek forgiveness and may well be capable of change...

But I think you'll find that new testament is clear that punishments should be imposed for crimes...

by Guest Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:24 pm

Is anyone proposing that the act of murder should should pass without sanction?

by Original Quill Sun Nov 13, 2016 1:50 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

He's a good source. Basically, he's the father of humanism.

Don't believe everything you read in the Bible.

The Bible is a very poor source for learning anything about Jesus. The best source on Jesus and the Church of Jerusalem is probably the gospel or Book of Jesus' brother, Thomas, and of course the gospel of Jesus' wife, the Magdalen. The Roman religion was devised by Paul, who never met Christ, but was one hell of a promoter.

The book that most people refer to as the Bible, came out of the Council of Nacea in 325, and was a political document meant to serve the Emperor Constantine and rekindle the Empire. It recast the persona of Christ from the humanist, to this spiritual figure who neither represented nor reflected the gnostic teachings of Jesus, but sold a story about redemption and a certain advantageous trade if one subscribed to the religion of the Empire. John 3:16.

by Bella Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:41 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Syl wrote:

They wont know anything else though, and many long term prisoners prefer the security that prison brings them and fear the outside world, so that theory wouldn't necessarily work.

In any case surely it's better to not commit crime because you know it's wrong rather than not commit crime simply because you don't want to be jailed again.

They already know it's wrong - that's why they tried to cover up what they did. They're not babies, and they knew what they were doing. People wouldn't want to go back to jail if it wasn't so easy there.

I'm losing patience with your attitude tbh. You just defend and excuse those two over and over again.

Did they "cover up what they did"? I understood they were still in the house 36 hours later when the Police came. There is more to this crime but it can't be commented on due to restrictions.

by Tommy Monk Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:25 pm

Bella wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

They already know it's wrong - that's why they tried to cover up what they did. They're not babies, and they knew what they were doing. People wouldn't want to go back to jail if it wasn't so easy there.

I'm losing patience with your attitude tbh. You just defend and excuse those two over and over again.

Did they "cover up what they did"? I understood they were still in the house 36 hours later when the Police came. There is more to this crime but it can't be commented on due to restrictions.

What restrictions?

And why?

Normally there are only restrictions in discussing things while trial is ongoing...

But that's all done now... so what else is there?

by Syl Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:31 pm

I would be interested to know too.
It's always interesting to me to read about what led up to people committing horrendous crimes.

by Bella Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:01 pm

Syl wrote:I would be interested to know too.
It's always interesting to me to read about what led up to people committing horrendous crimes.

I don't think it's possible as we are not allowed to name the 2 teens involved.

by Syl Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:26 pm

Bella wrote:
Syl wrote:I would be interested to know too.
It's always interesting to me to read about what led up to people committing horrendous crimes.

I don't think it's possible as we are not allowed to name the 2 teens involved.

No don't name names Bella.
I just wondered if any info had been held back about the way the two teens were brought up that's all.
It makes no difference to the outcome of the trial though, so if the information has been kept back it's obviously not in the public interest to know.

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