Brexit under threat

by magica Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:40 pm

First topic message reminder :

What was the point of voting if it can be reversed?

Bet the luvvies and handwringers will be jumping up and down now, wetting themselves with excitement.

Had it been the other way round, nothing would've changed. Can we have another vote to kick conservative out of government and put UKIP in, no chance!

If its changed then I wont vote no more. This country is becoming a Dictatorship. Evil or Very Mad

by Guest Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:17 pm

eddie wrote:Sorry but this is just madness! A vote is a vote is a vote. Fucking hell! What point was there in me dragging my arse to the polling station and ticking a box?

And I'm sure you all know me well enough to know that I'd still be saying this if it were the other way round.

No real point - but hell, it's the best system we've got.

by eddie Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:21 pm

Ziz wrote:
eddie wrote:Sorry but this is just madness! A vote is a vote is a vote. Fucking hell! What point was there in me dragging my arse to the polling station and ticking a box?

And I'm sure you all know me well enough to know that I'd still be saying this if it were the other way round.

No real point - but hell, it's the best system we've got.

It's the oldest and simplest; you're all asked a question and you answer yes or no.
You count the votes and the majority has it.
There's no more to be said.

by Guest Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:23 pm

eddie wrote:
Ziz wrote:

No real point - but hell, it's the best system we've got.

It's the oldest and simplest; you're all asked a question and you answer yes or no.
You count the votes and the majority has it.
There's no more to be said.

Leaving aside the fact that in the case in question the referendum was advisory and non-binding...

...you were asked what you wanted to leave not where you wanted to go, and it is that which is exercising the great minds at the moment.

by eddie Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:26 pm

Ziz wrote:
eddie wrote:
Ziz wrote:

No real point - but hell, it's the best system we've got.

It's the oldest and simplest; you're all asked a question and you answer yes or no.
You count the votes and the majority has it.
There's no more to be said.

Except that in the case in question the referendum was advisory and non-binding.

Did they tell us, the voters, that? You realise that's all bollocks, don't you?
You can't make it seem like an official vote then say afterwards "well we didn't tell you it was only advisory and also non-binding"

I will never, ever vote again on anything if they worm out of this.
I actually think it's despicable.

by Raggamuffin Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:29 pm

What was the point of both campaigns if MPs get to decide anyway? Both sides could have saved a lot of money and effort.

by Guest Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:32 pm

eddie wrote:
Ziz wrote:

Except that in the case in question the referendum was advisory and non-binding.

Did they tell us, the voters, that? You realise that's all bollocks, don't you?
You can't make it seem like an official vote then say afterwards "well we didn't tell you it was only advisory and also non-binding"

I will never, ever vote again on anything if they worm out of this.
I actually think it's despicable.

I knew it was advisory. scratch

by Guest Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:32 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:What was the point of both campaigns if MPs get to decide anyway? Both sides could have saved a lot of money and effort.

Power struggle on the right from what I could see.

by eddie Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:35 pm

Ziz wrote:
eddie wrote:
Ziz wrote:

Except that in the case in question the referendum was advisory and non-binding.

Did they tell us, the voters, that? You realise that's all bollocks, don't you?
You can't make it seem like an official vote then say afterwards "well we didn't tell you it was only advisory and also non-binding"

I will never, ever vote again on anything if they worm out of this.
I actually think it's despicable.

I knew it was advisory.

Good for you. Call me dumb, but I didn't.
Perhaps, as with everything else in life, they should've treated us all like we are brain dead stupid and printed in large capitals:

THIS VOTE COUNTS FOR SHIT UNLESS WE LIKE THE ANSWER.

by Guest Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:41 pm

eddie wrote:
Ziz wrote:

I knew it was advisory.

Good for you. Call me dumb, but I didn't.
Perhaps, as with everything else in life, they should've treated us all like we are brain dead stupid and printed in large capitals:

THIS VOTE COUNTS FOR SHIT UNLESS WE LIKE THE ANSWER.

The rich control society, not the people - of course your "VOTE COUNTS FOR SHIT UNLESS THEY LIKE THE ANSWER". Brexit under threat - Page 2 2190311264

by eddie Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:42 pm

Ziz wrote:
eddie wrote:
Ziz wrote:

I knew it was advisory.

Good for you. Call me dumb, but I didn't.
Perhaps, as with everything else in life, they should've treated us all like we are brain dead stupid and printed in large capitals:

THIS VOTE COUNTS FOR SHIT UNLESS WE LIKE THE ANSWER.

The rich control society, not the people - of course your "VOTE COUNTS FOR SHIT UNLESS THEY LIKE THE ANSWER".

Well, I can tell you Ziz, it makes me mad!

by Guest Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:47 pm

eddie wrote:
Ziz wrote:

The rich control society, not the people - of course your "VOTE COUNTS FOR SHIT UNLESS THEY LIKE THE ANSWER".

Well, I can tell you Ziz, it makes me mad!

I kind of gathered that. Brexit under threat - Page 2 2089010162

by Raggamuffin Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:53 pm

sassy wrote:
Ziz wrote:

The will of the rich will prevail no matter what - in or out.

Too true! We had a democratic vote that was legally non binding and the Courts have decided, as they are legally entitled to do (and aren't we glad we are democratic and have a judiciary that goes by the law, not the will of Government) that the law says the Prime Minister cannot use the Royal Perogative (a very feudal concept and not democratic) to trigger Article 50 and must get the consent of Parliament, democratically elected by the people to make such decisions. Hooray for democracy.

Yeah right. You'd be screaming your head off if the vote had been to stay, and someone had legally challenged it. Were you so impressed with the law when Goldsmith said it was legal to invade Iraq?

by eddie Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:53 pm

Ziz wrote:
eddie wrote:
Ziz wrote:

The rich control society, not the people - of course your "VOTE COUNTS FOR SHIT UNLESS THEY LIKE THE ANSWER".

Well, I can tell you Ziz, it makes me mad!

I kind of gathered that.

I may take the government to court and shout at them for not treating me like I'm as stupid as they do when they are warning me on bags of nuts: "Contains nuts"

I might become that guy. Placards and marches and shouting "Treat me like I'm stupid and honest!"

by Guest Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:55 pm

eddie wrote:
Ziz wrote:

I kind of gathered that.

I may take the government to court and shout at them for not treating me like I'm as stupid as they do when they are warning me on bags of nuts: "Contains nuts"

I might become that guy. Placards and marches and shouting "Treat me like I'm stupid and honest!"

Ha, ha, ha - don't forget to post a selfie of your protests.

by nicko Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:55 pm

The people who wanted to stay included the rich capitalists who would lose money if we left. Unfortunately these people are the ones who have the most "clout" with the Judges

by magica Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:26 pm

nicko wrote:The people who wanted to stay included the rich capitalists who would lose money if we left. Unfortunately these people are the ones who have the most "clout" with the Judges

Theyre all in the same club Nicko. They all got something to lose. We peasants can never beat them, god knows we tried all through history but always lost. They have the money, the clout and the means, we only have truth and that is all.

by Raggamuffin Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:31 pm

magica wrote:
nicko wrote:The people who wanted to stay included the rich capitalists who would lose money if we left. Unfortunately these people are the ones who have the most "clout" with the Judges

Theyre all in the same club Nicko. They all got something to lose. We peasants can never beat them, god knows we tried all through history but always lost. They have the money, the clout and the means, we only have truth and that is all.

We'll see. This doesn't mean that it won't happen, it just means it'll be put back for a while.

by Guest Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:33 pm

It's a gambit for a softer Brexit.

by eddie Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:37 pm

It's a con, is what it is, is what it is.

by Original Quill Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:39 pm

eddie wrote:
Ziz wrote:

I knew it was advisory.

Good for you. Call me dumb, but I didn't.
Perhaps, as with everything else in life, they should've treated us all like we are brain dead stupid and printed in large capitals:

THIS VOTE COUNTS FOR SHIT UNLESS WE LIKE THE ANSWER.

How can I put this delicately, eds? If you didn't know the Brexit vote had no teeth, you were brain dead! It was an expression of sentiment, no more. An advisory vote. Ziz apparently knew that...lots of people did.

Remember the old manual transmissions? You could have a beautiful motorcar, but if you didn't engage the clutch you didn't go anywhere. You're at the point where you are revving the engine, and nothing is happening. Someone deliberately left out of the Instructions: Now engage the clutch. Rolling Eyes

by Raggamuffin Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:39 pm

Well it could go well for the Tories after this. At least the Government is trying to get Brexit moving (on the face of it anyway).

by Original Quill Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:43 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Well it could go well for the Tories after this. At least the Government is trying to get Brexit moving (on the face of it anyway).

I'm afraid you need to start all over again. Another vote, to make it happen.

by Raggamuffin Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:49 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Well it could go well for the Tories after this. At least the Government is trying to get Brexit moving (on the face of it anyway).

I'm afraid you need to start all over again. Another vote, to make it happen.

Another referendum? That won't happen - people had their chance and they voted or they didn't vote.

The point is that people will see that the Tory Government is at least trying to implement the will of the people, and that will go in their favour. Lefties who want to block Brexit might want to think about that.

by nicko Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:52 pm

Quill, what if it's an Automatic? Laughing

by Guest Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:52 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I'm afraid you need to start all over again. Another vote, to make it happen.

Another referendum? That won't happen - people had their chance and they voted or they didn't vote.

The point is that people will see that the Tory Government is at least trying to implement the will of the people, and that will go in their favour. Lefties who want to block Brexit might want to think about that.

Blocking Brexit is not the name of the game - that is lost. Softening it to meaningless mush is.

by Original Quill Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:01 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I'm afraid you need to start all over again. Another vote, to make it happen.

Another referendum? That won't happen - people had their chance and they voted or they didn't vote.

The point is that people will see that the Tory Government is at least trying to implement the will of the people, and that will go in their favour. Lefties who want to block Brexit might want to think about that.

Meh...that's a weak argument. A RW Republican Party has been running this country for the first ten years of the millennium, and is now in control of both houses of Congress. They are responsible for all of the wars, depressions, recessions and they have more in the planning. After causing all that, Republicans call themselves the party of change. What do you want to bet the Republicans will win Congress all over again next Tuesday?

What you are asking for is a thought too far for most people. They aren't that focused. They aren't that calculating. People will see the Tories in charge, and they will associate that with Brexit not happening. That's as far as the masses can calculate.

by Raggamuffin Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:06 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Another referendum? That won't happen - people had their chance and they voted or they didn't vote.

The point is that people will see that the Tory Government is at least trying to implement the will of the people, and that will go in their favour. Lefties who want to block Brexit might want to think about that.

Meh...that's a weak argument. A RW Republican Party has been running this country for the first ten years of the millennium, and is now in control of both houses of Congress. They are responsible for all of the wars, depressions, recessions and they have more in the planning. After causing all that, Republicans call themselves the party of change. What do you want to bet the Republicans will win Congress all over again next Tuesday?

What you are asking for is a thought too far for most people. They aren't that focused. They aren't that calculating. People will see the Tories in charge, and they will associate that with Brexit not happening. That's as far as the masses can calculate.

This isn't the US, it's the UK, and people look to the Government to implement the correct policies - the ones which they pledged to implement. The referendum was an implied promise to implement that will, and the Tory Government is attempting to do just that. That will go a long way to gain trust. People won't bother to look at individual MPs and what they're doing, they're only interested in what the Government is doing.

by eddie Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:06 pm

Original Quill wrote:
eddie wrote:
Ziz wrote:

I knew it was advisory.

Good for you. Call me dumb, but I didn't.
Perhaps, as with everything else in life, they should've treated us all like we are brain dead stupid and printed in large capitals:

THIS VOTE COUNTS FOR SHIT UNLESS WE LIKE THE ANSWER.

How can I put this delicately, eds? If you didn't know the Brexit vote had no teeth, you were brain dead! It was an expression of sentiment, no more. An advisory vote. Ziz apparently knew that...lots of people did.

Remember the old manual transmissions? You could have a beautiful motorcar, but if you didn't engage the clutch you didn't go anywhere. You're at the point where you are revving the engine, and nothing is happening. Someone deliberately left out of the Instructions: Now engage the clutch.

Are you comparing me to a beautiful motorcar with no clutch? Suspect

by Original Quill Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:08 pm

Ziz wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Another referendum? That won't happen - people had their chance and they voted or they didn't vote.

The point is that people will see that the Tory Government is at least trying to implement the will of the people, and that will go in their favour. Lefties who want to block Brexit might want to think about that.

Blocking Brexit is not the name of the game - that is lost. Softening it to meaningless mush is.

I'm afraid you're right. A return vote on Brexit--even if only to implement it--will probably not work now that the people are awakened. But that only means that Brexit didn't really have popular support...just a lot of apathy and non-voting.

by Original Quill Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:10 pm

eddie wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

How can I put this delicately, eds? If you didn't know the Brexit vote had no teeth, you were brain dead! It was an expression of sentiment, no more. An advisory vote. Ziz apparently knew that...lots of people did.

Remember the old manual transmissions? You could have a beautiful motorcar, but if you didn't engage the clutch you didn't go anywhere. You're at the point where you are revving the engine, and nothing is happening. Someone deliberately left out of the Instructions: Now engage the clutch.

Are you comparing me to a beautiful motorcar with no clutch?

It has a clutch, hon...and lots of buttons. But the instructions never said how you engage the transmission.

The beautiful motorcar part is correct, tho. Razz

by eddie Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:13 pm

Original Quill wrote:
eddie wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

How can I put this delicately, eds? If you didn't know the Brexit vote had no teeth, you were brain dead! It was an expression of sentiment, no more. An advisory vote. Ziz apparently knew that...lots of people did.

Remember the old manual transmissions? You could have a beautiful motorcar, but if you didn't engage the clutch you didn't go anywhere. You're at the point where you are revving the engine, and nothing is happening. Someone deliberately left out of the Instructions: Now engage the clutch.

Are you comparing me to a beautiful motorcar with no clutch?

It has a clutch, hon...and lots of buttons. But the instructions never said how you engage the transmission.

The beautiful motorcar part is correct, tho.

You're lucky I'm not into cars and have no idea what you're on about cheers

by Tommy Monk Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:24 pm

sassy wrote:
Ziz wrote:

The will of the rich will prevail no matter what - in or out.

Too true! We had a democratic vote that was legally non binding and the Courts have decided, as they are legally entitled to do (and aren't we glad we are democratic and have a judiciary that goes by the law, not the will of Government) that the law says the Prime Minister cannot use the Royal Perogative (a very feudal concept and not democratic) to trigger Article 50 and must get the consent of Parliament, democratically elected by the people to make such decisions. Hooray for democracy.

Bullshit!!!

The people are the democracy (demos cratos)... the politicians in parliament work for us!!!

Vast majority of constituencies voted Leave... so let's just get on with it... and stop all this delaying tactics nonsense...

by Tommy Monk Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:28 pm

Everyone was clear that the decision made in the referendum was what would be implemented...

by eddie Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:31 pm

Well Quill reckons I've got no transmission clutch cos I didn't know the vote was only "advisory".

by Original Quill Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:32 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
sassy wrote:

Too true! We had a democratic vote that was legally non binding and the Courts have decided, as they are legally entitled to do (and aren't we glad we are democratic and have a judiciary that goes by the law, not the will of Government) that the law says the Prime Minister cannot use the Royal Perogative (a very feudal concept and not democratic) to trigger Article 50 and must get the consent of Parliament, democratically elected by the people to make such decisions. Hooray for democracy.

Bullshit!!!

The people are the democracy (demos cratos)... the politicians in parliament work for us!!!

Vast majority of constituencies voted Leave... so let's just get on with it... and stop all this delaying tactics nonsense...

The delaying tactics are the getting on with it.

The government may work for you, but which you? People in power are adept at choosing which mandate they follow. You voted for a referendum with no teeth. Now which way will the MPs go, the sentiment part of the law that says get out, or the 'no teeth' part?

Brexit isn't going anywhere. You've been flummoxed.

by Tommy Monk Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:40 pm

Oh yes it is quim... I can guarantee you that...!

by Original Quill Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:45 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Oh yes it is quim... I can guarantee you that...!

What is? You can't even guarantee what you mean.

The powers that be have engineered a situation where anything they do, they are right. On the one side: Oh the people want out; ergo, let's get out. On the other side: The people say they want out, but they have left it to us to decide; ergo, the people are uncertain, let's not do anything.

Now you are seeing the second option is the one Parliament is taking. Politics is a game of chess. Learn to play, or lose.

by Tommy Monk Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:05 pm

From the govts eu referendum booklet of facts, sent out to everyone, by the government, in the run up to the referendum vote...

"The referendum on Thursday, 23 June is your chance to decide if we should remain in or leave the European Union.

This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide."

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk

Couldn't be much clearer than that...!!!

Laughing

by Guest Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:07 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:From the govts eu referendum booklet of facts, sent out to everyone, by the government, in the run up to the referendum vote...

"The referendum on Thursday, 23 June is your chance to decide if we should remain in or leave the European Union.

This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide."

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk

Couldn't be much clearer than that...!!!

You believe governments? lol!

by Original Quill Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:49 am

Tommy Monk wrote:From the govts eu referendum booklet of facts, sent out to everyone, by the government, in the run up to the referendum vote...

"The referendum on Thursday, 23 June is your chance to decide if we should remain in or leave the European Union.

This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide."

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk

Couldn't be much clearer than that...!!!

Words are not guarantees. So, where's the guarantee you promised? In fact, where's the announcement of "what you decide"?

The referendum left it in the hands of Parliament to act, and they have apparently decided to implement the indecision of the British voters. Twisted Evil

by Tommy Monk Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:32 am

Ziz wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:From the govts eu referendum booklet of facts, sent out to everyone, by the government, in the run up to the referendum vote...

"The referendum on Thursday, 23 June is your chance to decide if we should remain in or leave the European Union.

This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide."

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk

Couldn't be much clearer than that...!!!

You believe governments?

Are you saying that everything the govt claimed in this official booklet of facts was lies...!?

Are you saying that everything that every govt ever says is lies and should be disbelieved...!?

Of all the huge number of points/issues/arguments raised on the eu referendum since the Tory govt were elected with the promise of referendum, and the actual vote and result... this was the only thing that was never in question/dispute...

"The referendum on Thursday, 23 June is your chance to decide if we should remain in or leave the European Union.

This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide."

by Original Quill Sat Nov 05, 2016 3:04 am

Tommy Monk wrote:
Ziz wrote:

You believe governments?

Are you saying that everything the govt claimed in this official booklet of facts was lies...!?

Are you saying that everything that every govt ever says is lies and should be disbelieved...?

Not at all. You just misinterpreted them, that's all. Evil or Very Mad

Tommy Monk wrote:Of all the huge number of points/issues/arguments raised on the eu referendum since the Tory govt were elected with the promise of referendum, and the actual vote and result... this was the only thing that was never in question/dispute...

"The referendum on Thursday, 23 June is your chance to decide if we should remain in or leave the European Union.

This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide."

It's tough when things don't turn out as you expect, tommy. I understand. Mad

by Tommy Monk Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:23 am

Not misinterpreted at all... it was a written guarantee and was the only thing in the referendum debate that all sides agreed on!!!

This is just weaseling ..

by Guest Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:47 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Ziz wrote:

You believe governments?

Are you saying that everything the govt claimed in this official booklet of facts was lies...!?

Are you saying that everything that every govt ever says is lies and should be disbelieved...!?

Not everything, there are a few scraps of truth here and there where they don't conflict with their agenda - I used to work helping them make up ~~lies~~ "official truth" at one time - are you really this gullible?

by Tommy Monk Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:51 pm

Is it a democratic governments job to do what the people elect them to do...?

Or to lie/cheat/dupe the public while pursuing an agenda that they were not elected for...?

by Guest Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:52 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Is it a democratic governments job to do what the people elect them to do...?

Or to lie/cheat/dupe the public while pursuing an agenda that they were not elected for...?

Yeah, right-o - hope you're happy.

by Tommy Monk Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:59 pm

Can you answer the question...?

by Guest Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:01 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Can you answer the question...?

It's a government's job to govern - the democratic bit (and a very small bit it is too) is there to help keep you compliant.

by Tommy Monk Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:04 pm

Maybe you should look up the meaning of democracy (demos cratos)... and then explain how a democratically elected govt does not have a duty to enact the will of the electorate... as you seem to think it works?

by Guest Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:06 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Maybe you should look up the meaning of democracy (demos cratos)... and then explain how a democratically elected govt does not have a duty to enact the will of the electorate... as you seem to think it works?

Maybe you should look up the meaning of realpolitik and stop being so naive? Brexit under threat - Page 2 2190311264

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