The gay community is in denial about Islamism

[Guest]

It is almost two months since Omar Mateen walked around the Pulse nightclub in Florida, gunning people down while shouting ‘Allahu Akbar’.  During the assault Mateen spoke to American law enforcement and swore allegiance to Isis.  Frustratingly Omar Mateen failed to call the group ‘so-called Islamic State’, thus betraying a woeful lack of linguistic sensitivity among his other crimes.

A few days later, very much in the shadow of these events, there was a ‘gay pride’ parade in New York.  The huge banner leading the parade at the front read ‘Republican hate kills’.  That is because after a moment’s stunned surprise the American gay rights movement did what all other Western gay rights movements have done, and decided to assiduously duck the issue of Islamic homophobia.  Having spent so many years believing that there was nothing more hateful than a Republican, when someone shouting praise to Allah and swearing allegiance to Islamic State killed 49 gay people America’s gay movement didn’t even bother to commission a new rainbow banner.

As I wrote at the time, although the Western gay press has understandable historical qualms about Christianity it also has a history of dismissing any and all concerns about Islam.  So in the wake of Orlando the gay press was filled not with pieces warning gay people about Islamic gay-hate, but pieces going out of their way to warn people against linking the massacre to Islam or Muslims.  In particular there was a flurry of articles warning gay people not to become ‘haters’.  Which is only the gay version of a wider Western sickness.  You got attacked?  Be careful you don’t become a bigot now.

At the weekend I picked up a copy of the UK gay magazine Attitude – a sort of post-Orlando memorial edition – which showed nothing had changed.  The aim of the edition was not just to avoid treading on any sore Islamic toes, but to deliberately avoid the subject of Islam.  Well these people, as Martin Amis once said in a related context, are disappearing up the fundament of the people who want to kill them.  They should enjoy it while it lasts.  The fact that a majority of British Muslims want being gay in Britain to be made illegal strikes me as a salient and troubling fact even if I can’t seem to get anyone else interested in the point.

Still, perhaps I can recommend some reading material to the gay panjandrums and their straight ‘allies’?  This recommendation is probably not on their usual reading list, but it is the latest issue of the Isis publication ‘Dabiq’ (if you wish to insert your own ‘so-calleds’ into that sentence then please do so).  Although the cover of this latest issue of the magazine is dedicated to the issue of ‘Breaking the cross’ (the Isis belief that Christianity must be destroyed) gays who do not care about this are welcome to flick beyond the cover story.  On page 30 they will find a most illuminating piece about the Orlando nightclub massacre.  It is far more informative than anything that can be found in Gay Times, the Advocate, or Attitude.  It is called ‘Why we hate you and why we fight you.’  The reasons are clearly laid out.

Reason one is because the West is full of ‘disbelievers’ who ‘reject the oneness of Allah’.  Reason two is because ‘your secular, liberal societies permit the very things that Allah has prohibited’.  Reason three is that ‘in the case of the atheist fringe, we hate you and wage war against you because you disbelieve in the existence of your Lord and creator’.  And so on and so on.  If you have got this far then you are probably worried, like me, by the lack of editorial talent in the Isis camp (or the ‘so-called Isis, so-called camp’).  But go back a step and you will find something even more worrying.  Read again in a little more detail point two – the one about permitting things that ‘Allah’ has forbidden.  I quote the full paragraph:

‘We hate you because your secular, liberal societies permit the very things that Allah has prohibited while banning many of the things He has permitted, a matter that doesn’t concern you because you separate between religion and state, thereby granting supreme authority to your whims and desires via the legislators you vote into power.  In doing so, you desire to rob Allah of his right to be obeyed and you wish to usurp that right for yourselves.  “Legislation is not but for Allah” (Yusuf 40).  Your secular liberalism has led you to tolerate and even support “gay rights”, to allow alcohol, drugs, fornication, gambling, and usury to become widespread, and to encourage the people to mock those who denounce these filthy sins and vices. As such, we wage war against you to stop you from spreading your disbelief and debauchery – your secularism and nationalism, your perverted liberal values, your Christianity and atheism – and all the depravity and corruption they entail. You’ve made it your mission to “liberate” Muslim societies; we’ve made it our mission to fight off your influence and protect mankind from your misguided concepts and your deviant way of life.’

Interesting, isn’t it?  So while the gay press in the UK is trying to make the Orlando massacre about ‘toxic masculinity’ or ‘Islamophobia’ and the US gay rights movement is trying to make it about Marco Rubio, Isis are saying precisely why they want people to attack the West.  One of the reasons they want to attack the West is because of the gays.  Of course there might be some conservatives in America and Britain who respond to such things by saying, ‘crikey – perhaps we ought to clean up our act and go easy on all the perversion, drinking, gambling and gay clubbing’.  But most people – any self-respecting people – will turn around and say ‘screw you’.

I’m not a betting man, but because Isis are so opposed to gambling I’m willing to start.  So in that spirit I would like to take bets: how much longer do people think that gay ‘community leaders’ can keep this denial up for?


http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/08/gay-community-denial-islamism/

[HoratioTarr]

You don't think it's a good idea to turn the other cheek then? Which seems to be what is being encouraged, rather than denial.

[Guest]

You don't think it's a good idea to turn the other cheek then?  Which seems to be what is being encouraged, rather than denial.

How is it a good idea to deny a problem by ignoring that problem, which then increases the hate against a group?

This is not about Muslims per say but Islamists who want to throw homosexuals off roof tops.

[Guest]

I will add a few more points

Whilst I have no objection to a belief that simply believes homosexuality is a sin, its what it leads to on teachings from this and the possible consquences faced by the gay communit due to such teaching.

Only within religion is such discrimination taught and allowed within societies.
If there was a subject in school of teaching racism against blacks or homophobia against homosexuals. It simply would be denid as a lesson as they are formed not from reason but a prejudice formed against each group.

So is it not a concern that in this case 50% of British Muslims believe homosexuality should be criminalized. Does this not lead to the possible increased risk of discrimination by some Muslims against the LGTB community? Or even hate crimes, of which there is half the number of homosexuals compared to Muslims in this country and yet homosexuals suffer 5 times the number of hate crimes compared to Muslims.

Should we not then be questioning why we allow religious areas of learning that call for homosxuals to be punishd to be then not be considered hate speech?

In any of aspect of life by any group it would be considered hate speech?

I expand this to any religious group as well, whether Christian, Muslim or Jewish.

Why do we allow exceptions for religious belief, when it has no evidence and allow people to promote hate against a people.
Again saying something is wrong or a sin is a view expressed. Promoting hate towards people that they in some way are abhorrant and that they should suffer for this. Is hate speech.

[HoratioTarr]

I will add a few more points

Whilst I have no objection to a belief that simply believes homosexuality is a sin, its what it leads to on teachings from this and the possible consquences faced by the gay communit due to such teaching.

Only within religion is such discrimination taught and allowed within societies.
If there was a subject in school of teaching racism against blacks or homophobia against homosexuals. It simply would be denid as a lesson as they are formed not from reason but a prejudice formed against each group.

So is it not a concern that in this case 50% of British Muslims believe homosexuality should be criminalized. Does this not lead to the possible increased risk of discrimination by some Muslims against the LGTB community? Or even hate crimes, of which there is half the number of homosexuals compared to Muslims in this country and yet homosexuals suffer 5 times the number of hate crimes compared to Muslims.

Should we not then be questioning why we allow religious areas of learning that call for homosxuals to be punishd to be then not be considered hate speech?

In any of aspect of life by any group it would be considered hate speech?

I expand this to any religious group as well, whether Christian, Muslim or Jewish.

Why do we allow exceptions for religious belief, when it has no evidence and allow people to promote hate against a people.
Again saying something is wrong or a sin is a view expressed. Promoting hate towards people that they in some way are abhorrant and that they should suffer for this. Is hate speech.

You don't have to be religious to hate homosexuals.

[Guest]

Certainlly don't, seen plents of posts anti homosexual on here.

[Eilzel]

You don't have to be, but that is very often the case. Pretending it isn't a problem within the Islamic community is dangerous. I know many Muslims who have no problem with people being gay, but they are just the few I know. No one refutes the poll in the UK that says most want it criminalised and that has to be addressed and tackled, in schools would be a start.

[Guest]

I will add a few more points

Whilst I have no objection to a belief that simply believes homosexuality is a sin, its what it leads to on teachings from this and the possible consquences faced by the gay communit due to such teaching.

Only within religion is such discrimination taught and allowed within societies.
If there was a subject in school of teaching racism against blacks or homophobia against homosexuals. It simply would be denid as a lesson as they are formed not from reason but a prejudice formed against each group.

So is it not a concern that in this case 50% of British Muslims believe homosexuality should be criminalized. Does this not lead to the possible increased risk of discrimination by some Muslims against the LGTB community? Or even hate crimes, of which there is half the number of homosexuals compared to Muslims in this country and yet homosexuals suffer 5 times the number of hate crimes compared to Muslims.

Should we not then be questioning why we allow religious areas of learning that call for homosxuals to be punishd to be then not be considered hate speech?

In any of aspect of life by any group it would be considered hate speech?

I expand this to any religious group as well, whether Christian, Muslim or Jewish.

Why do we allow exceptions for religious belief, when it has no evidence and allow people to promote hate against a people.
Again saying something is wrong or a sin is a view expressed. Promoting hate towards people that they in some way are abhorrant and that they should suffer for this. Is hate speech.

You don't have to be religious to hate homosexuals.

See perfect example of denial of the problem, as where did I say people had to be religious?

We are talking about a specific area of where the majority of this hate will come from

Again if countless children are brought up to hold views that openly discriminate against people and even more into a climate today online with extremism. Is this going to lead to an increase in hate crime and discrimination?

I suggest you look at the number of increases in hate crimes against homosexuals

[Guest]

Most of Christian religious communities in the USA think the same, loads think the same and loads don't, only way you change people's minds is to talk to them.

[Guest]

You don't have to be, but that is very often the case. Pretending it isn't a problem within the Islamic community is dangerous. I know many Muslims who have no problem with people being gay, but they are just the few I know. No one refutes the poll in the UK that says most want it criminalised and that has to be addressed and tackled, in schools would be a start.

+1

Religious schools, madrassas, sunday schools etc

[Guest]

Most of Christian religious communities in the USA think the same, loads think the same and loads don't, only way you change people's minds is to talk to them.

The US has progressed on this loads, considering it has still a hard core of literal neo-conservative Christian believers.
Again the point is on why we allow whre it crosses over to hate speech teaching through the guise of religion.
Why is it and there are many whether preachers or Imans, who openly preach and teach hate against homosexuals?

[Eilzel]

Most of Christian religious communities in the USA think the same, loads think the same and loads don't, only way you change people's minds is to talk to them.

A minority, Sass. The vast majority of the USA is Christian, and a majority of people in the USA agree with same-sex marriage let alone that being gay should not be criminalized.

This is, by a huge margin, a problem in Muslim communities. For further evidence, look at the legal status of gay people in most Christian countries in the Americas, Europe and Australasia. Now compare that with the legal status of gay people in most Muslim countries. This is a problem in the Islamic community in a massive way.

[Guest]

Most of Christian religious communities in the USA think the same, loads think the same and loads don't, only way you change people's minds is to talk to them.

A minority, Sass. The vast majority of the USA is Christian, and a majority of people in the USA agree with same-sex marriage let alone that being gay should not be criminalized.

This is, by a huge margin, a problem in Muslim communities. For further evidence, look at the legal status of gay people in most Christian countries in the Americas, Europe and Australasia. Now compare that with the legal status of gay people in most Muslim countries. This is a problem in the Islamic community in a massive way.

Howdy doody Les. Not saying there is not a problem, because even in Tunisia I had discussions about it and tried to change people's minds. In America AS A WHOLE it isn't a problem, however, there are swathes of the bible belt where it really, really is. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/06/whats-behind-the-wave-of-anti-lgbt-laws-sweeping-across-the-usa/

[Guest]

Again pople are not denying again based around literal belief and neo-conservatism in America is still a problem to be tackled, but we are talking about in places where hate crimes are increasing and homosexuals and criminalized by the law based off beliefs.

Again what is more important here is where teaching crosses over from a simple view of viewing something as a sin, to down right hate to call for the punishment of homosexuals. In the west we make absurd allowances with religion, For what in any other aspect of work, school etc, would be deemed hate speech.

My view is this is teaching intolerance to children and within religion this is allowed in a teaching capacity based around faiths

[Guest]

Homophobia rears its ugly head in Pride month in Israel

‘Sick,’ ‘perverts,’ ‘abomination,’ ‘blasphemers,’ ‘handicapped’: Hate speech against Israel’s LGBTQ community has reached fever pitch this week, and comes as police have detained queer activists and the High Court has capitulated to homophobia.

The last seven days in Israel have been particularly hostile for the country’s LGBTQ community. A steady stream of homophobic slander from nationalist and ultra-Orthodox rabbis has been bookended by two major pride parades facing serious threats and calls for counter-demonstrations.

The sequence of events began with Be’er Sheva’s pride parade, slated to take place Thursday last week. It would have been the southern Israeli city’s first march, in lieu of an annual demonstration and in spite of mayor Ruvik Danilovich’s refusal to fund the event. The police, however, decided to withdraw the permit for the parade’s intended route along the main thoroughfare, citing credible, serious threats to participants and the fact that the march would “deeply hurt religious sentiments.”

Religious members of Be’er Sheva’s council threatened to resign over the parade and the High Court rejected a petition to reinstate the original path for the march. The police detained a number of local LGBTQ activists the day before the parade — apparently largely without cause — and in protest at the court’s capitulation, the event’s organizers canceled the parade in order to stage a protest. Ofer Kardi, the deputy mayor and chair of Be’er Sheva’s Shas movement, expressed his satisfaction that the “extremist” parade would no longer be taking place.

As this was going on, a separate controversy began when Rabbi Yigal Levenstein, the co-head of a prominent pre-military academy in a West Bank settlement, repeatedly referred to LGBTQs as “perverts” while addressing a conference about the impact of Reform Judaism on identity in Israel. (This incident came at the tail-end of another media brawl that erupted when the IDF nominated Rabbi Eyal Karim as the army’s next chief rabbi, a religious figure who in addition to being notorious for egregious comments on rape also referred to LGBTQs as “sick or disabled.”)

It should be noted that Levenstein’s comments earned him condemnation from across the political spectrum as well as from some of his students, who declared their intention to march at this year’s pride parade in Jerusalem. Jewish Home party chairman Naftali Bennett, too, censured Levenstein, saying that one cannot label an entire community and then “hide behind halakha [Jewish religious law],” although he and his party are staunchly opposed to same-sex marriage.
A pride flag at a protest against government incitement against Palestinians and the LGTBQ community in Israel, August 8, 2015, Tel Aviv. (Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

A pride flag at a protest against government incitement against Palestinians and the LGBTQ community in Israel, August 8, 2015, Tel Aviv. (Oren Ziv/Activestills.org)

But Levenstein and his views also won broad support from his peers, leading to a week in which homophobic comments have tumbled into the public sphere on a near-daily basis. The chief rabbi of Tel Aviv suburb Ramat Gan, Yaakov Ariel, said that LGBTQs are “handicapped” and “in need of psychological treatment.” Safed Chief Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu told Army Radio that members of the queer community are “sick, like prostitution and drugs.” Around 300 religious Zionist rabbis signed a petition, published on Wednesday, backing Levenstein and criticizing Bennett.

All this has happened in the run-up to Thursday’s pride parade in Jerusalem. The event has attracted the customary protest and plans for counter-demonstrations from the far-right Jewish purity group Lehava, and Jerusalem’s ultra-Orthodox communities, whose neighborhoods have been dotted with posters calling the parade an “abomination.” Jerusalem’s deputy mayor, Meir Turgeman, told Army Radio on Wednesday that “Jerusalem is a holy city and [the pride participants] are blasphemers.” The chief rabbi of Hebron and Kiryat Arba, Dov Lior, also called the event an “abomination,” while a faction of religious Zionist rabbis has published a letter accusing the parade and its attendees of “desecrating” Jerusalem.

This is the same kind of hate speech that could be heard leading up to to last year’s Jerusalem Pride, at which Yishai Shlissel, an ultra-Orthodox man, stabbed teenager Shira Banki to death and wounded five other people. (Police have issued a restraining order barring members of Shlissel’s family from Jerusalem during this year’s parade, for fear that they may pose a threat to participants. They also arrested Shlissel himself, in prison, for conspiracy to carry out another attack.)
Blood is seen on the pavement following a mass stabbing attack against the Jerusalem LGBTQ Pride Parade in Jerusalem, July 30, 2015. (Keren Manor/Activestills.org)

Blood is seen on the pavement following a mass stabbing attack against the Jerusalem LGBTQ Pride Parade in Jerusalem, July 30, 2015. (Keren Manor/Activestills.org)

In the face of this incitement, Jerusalem Mayor Nir Barkat declared in an interview with Yedioth Ahronoth that he would not be attending Thursday’s march because he doesn’t want to “harm the ultra-Orthodox and religious-Zionist public.” Barkat could have kept silent on his reasons for not attending the march. Instead, he chose to validate the same homophobic sentiments that the march exists to stand up to.

Incidentally, the official tourism website of the Jerusalem Municipality has an event page for both Jerusalem Pride Week and the march itself, on which it tells potential visitors to “[s]upport LGBT rights, pride and tolerance by walking through the streets of Jerusalem in the Jerusalem March for Pride and Tolerance” — an activity the city’s own mayor seemingly believes is inappropriate.

This last point encapsulates the fundamental contradiction surrounding queer rights in Israel: the facts on the ground paint a vastly different picture from the carefully manicured image of a beacon of LGBTQ tolerance and inclusion that the country projects to the world.

Expensive advertising — NIS 11 million ($2.85 million), to be precise, around 10 times what the government spends on support for LGBTQ rights organizations — cannot hide that homophobia is a real, present and rising threat for Israel’s queer community. A series of reports and studies over the past year have pointed to a surge in homophobic incidents from 2014 to 2015 and disturbingly high rates of sexual harassment and physical violence against LGBTQ women and the transgender community. Even the U.S. Consulate in Jerusalem saw fit to issue a statement urging its citizens to exercise caution at this year’s parade.

Nor can Israel’s gay-friendly branding onslaught, increasingly referred to as “pinkwashing,” mask the fact that one piece of proposed gay rights legislation after another falls at the first hurdle in the Knesset. This alone makes Israeli politicians’ condemnation of homophobia — much as it is to be welcomed — little more than symbolic, for it does nothing to advance the fight for full equality under the law, nor the depressing state of personal security for the LGBTQ community. And this sporadic uproar comes almost solely when Jews are under attack for their sexuality — barely a squeak is to be heard on the IDF’s practice of exploiting West Bank Palestinians’ sexual orientation in order to try and blackmail them into collaborating.

http://972mag.com/homophobia-rears-its-ugly-head-in-pride-month-in-israel/120745/

[Eilzel]

A minority, Sass. The vast majority of the USA is Christian, and a majority of people in the USA agree with same-sex marriage let alone that being gay should not be criminalized.

This is, by a huge margin, a problem in Muslim communities. For further evidence, look at the legal status of gay people in most Christian countries in the Americas, Europe and Australasia. Now compare that with the legal status of gay people in most Muslim countries. This is a problem in the Islamic community in a massive way.

Howdy doody Les.   Not saying there is not a problem, because even in Tunisia I had discussions about it and tried to change people's minds.   In America AS A WHOLE it isn't a problem, however, there are swathes of the bible belt where it really, really is.    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/06/whats-behind-the-wave-of-anti-lgbt-laws-sweeping-across-the-usa/

You'll get no disagreement from me on the fact that Bible Belt Americans are backward neanderthals on gay rights, especially compared to the coasts. But even their laws stop way short of outright forbidding gay relations of every kind as is the case in Muslim communities.

I would feel unwelcome in the Bible Belt; I would fear for my freedom or life in most Muslim nations.

[Guest]

Increasing homophobia mars Knesset LGBT day

As the Knesset marks first ever ‘gay community rights day,’ new reports on homophobia in Israel show 80 percent increase in documented homophobic incidents, alarming statistics about levels of violence faced by the LGBT community.

The state of LGBT rights in Israel can effectively be summed up in a series of events surrounding the Knesset’s first ever LGBT rights day. As much of an achievement as that was — although with caveats — the day was overshadowed by a number of proposed bills to advance LGBT rights that were shot down before before even getting off the ground.

A day earlier, a major gay rights advocacy organization released its latest set of figures on homophobia in Israel. The report showed an 80 percent increase in the number of documented anti-LGBT statements and incidents in 2015, compared with the previous year.

A second report published by a coalition of feminist organizations found that around two-thirds of LGBT women have suffered sexual harassment, a third have been subjected to physical violence and 81 percent felt compelled to hide their identity in some way or another. A report released earlier last year showed that half of Israel’s transgender population has been physically assaulted at least once.

These statistics are backed up by research undertaken by the Berl Katznelson Foundation last December, which found that the LGBT community was second only to Palestinians as the targets of online incitement in 2015. A social media monitoring service found 6,836 homophobic statements posted on Hebrew-language social media in January 2016 alone.

And 2015 was, of course, the year in which an ultra-Orthodox Israeli went on a stabbing spree at the Jerusalem pride parade — for the second time — killing one and wounding five.

To have the Knesset’s first gay rights day in this atmosphere was both a landmark moment and a red herring of sorts. Brought about by the Knesset LGBT Lobby — headed by MKs Michal Rozin (Meretz), Merav Michaeli (Zionist Union) and Yael German (Yesh Atid) — it was attended by over a quarter of Knesset members, although mostly from the opposition. As Michaeli told +972 Magazine, “it’s a legitimization [of the LGBT community and its rights], even if that should no longer be this complicated.”

But the day, and those that came before and after, only served to highlight the gap between perception and reality of LGBT rights in Israel, as Michaeli herself recognizes. “This is a Knesset in which we cannot get any legislation passed that has to do with equal rights for LGBT people,” the Labor MK explained.
Zionist Union MK Merav Michaeli (Photo by Activstills.org)

Zionist Union MK Merav Michaeli (Photo by Activstills.org)

Asked what she feels the biggest obstacle is to advancing gay rights in the country, Michaeli is unequivocal: “The automatic surrender to very conservative and very dark ultra-Orthodox conditions. The same thing happens with all kinds of rights that clash with state and religion issues — it’s like a force of nature, no one tries to challenge it. There’s no attempt by the coalition to negotiate.”

Personal and family status laws in Israel are governed by the rabbinate, meaning that there is no civil marriage, no interfaith marriage and no same-sex marriage, primarily due to ultra-Orthodox Judaism’s deeply conservative and often homophobic attitudes.

Furthermore, says Khader Abu Seif, a gay Palestinian activist, the lack of Palestinian representation at the Knesset LGBT rights event undermined its status as a measure of true progress.

“It can’t be a real pride day if there’s no Arab representative,” he told +972. “It is a big step, but it feels as if it’s only for one section of the LGBT community in Israel.”

This reflects what Abu Seif feels is a broader problem at the cross-section between the LGBT and Palestinian struggles for rights. “There is no money going toward Palestinian LGBTs in Israel, and no representation in the government,” he said.

Asked about the lack of Palestinian presence at the Knesset’s gay rights day, Michaeli said that efforts to include Palestinian partners had been made but that, “for various reasons, in the end it wasn’t possible to bring them on board for this specific day.”

As for the surge in homophobia, Michaeli sees it as an indicator that progress is being made. “It’s a backlash,” she explained. “There’s always a backlash whenever there’s real advancement and more rights are being gained. When people are more able to be out in the open, the backlash will be stronger.”

“Of course, when the gay community could not walk the streets freely there were fewer incidents of homophobia,” she continued. “It’s the same with women’s rights, with every kind of tangible change that goes against very deep patriarchal tradition.”

While this is indeed true, and despite Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s pretty words on Tuesday, openly homophobic views are tolerated among Israel’s political echelon. In addition, almost nothing is done to stop the very real and very dangerous public incitement against the LGBT community here.

And, as with most advances that happen in Israel-Palestine, they happen for Jews first — with Palestinians coming last, or not at all. There are people in the Knesset working hard and with great willingness to improve the situation for LGBT individuals in this land, but ultimately they are working within the confines of an institution that inherently privileges the rights of one ethnic group over another. That undermines the very foundations of any minority struggle, and as American civil rights activist Fannie Lou Hamer said, “nobody’s free until everybody’s free.”

http://972mag.com/increasing-homophobia-mars-knesset-lgbt-day/117348/




Let's call everyone out for it, not just Muslims.

[Guest]

So see what sassy does, where the only place in the middle east people can have gay pride and have gay rights, she highlights Israel and not a single Muslim majority country where homosexuals are criminalized.

What does that say about the motivation of the person in their hate for Israel
Whilst there is hate by some extremists in Israel against gays, to go off this ignoring that gays do not have rights in Muslim majority countries is the worst form of double standards going.

That tells you how homophobia comes secondary to promoting hate against israel

Any homophobia is wrong whether it be by Jews, Christians, Muslims left or right. To use this as a bashing stone on Israel shows you have little care for this actual problemn

[Guest]

Howdy doody Les.   Not saying there is not a problem, because even in Tunisia I had discussions about it and tried to change people's minds.   In America AS A WHOLE it isn't a problem, however, there are swathes of the bible belt where it really, really is.    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/06/whats-behind-the-wave-of-anti-lgbt-laws-sweeping-across-the-usa/

You'll get no disagreement from me on the fact that Bible Belt Americans are backward neanderthals on gay rights, especially compared to the coasts. But even their laws stop way short of outright forbidding gay relations of every kind as is the case in Muslim communities.

I would feel unwelcome in the Bible Belt; I would fear for my freedom or life in most Muslim nations.

Alabama

Along with Mississippi, Alabama is one of eight so-called "No Promo Homo" states, with laws that "expressly forbid teachers from discussing gay and transgender issues," according to GLSEN. Alabama's laws go a bit further than most: The state's sex education program mandates that "classes must emphasize, in a factual manner and from a public health perspective, that homosexuality is not a lifestyle acceptable to the general public and that homosexual conduct is a criminal offense under the laws of the state."

For years, the Texas GOP has been attempting to undermine Lawrence v. Texas, the landmark Supreme Court decision that legalized relations between same-sex partners. Republicans have fought to keep language in the state's penal code making "deviate sexual intercourse with another individual of the same sex" a misdemeanor charge. As late as last year, 12 other states had not purged their anti-sodomy laws.

More at: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-5-worst-states-for-lgbt-people-20141124



Oh, and the last gay bar has closed in Tel Aviv

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/israels-lgbt-hub-tel-aviv-150532214.html

[Eilzel]

Got to be honest Sass, I think didge is right on this. I do not question your concern for gay rights; but there is a massive difference between:

a) a country/group of people by and large thinking gay people should be treated as criminals, and having laws doing as much.

and

b) some sections of societies among groups or a country expressing homophobic views or discriminating, and passing views to stop equality (but not actually criminalize the acts).

This topic is on the former- and in reality, the former is enormously worse than the latter.

[Eilzel]

Some Republicans is not the same as most Americans.

MOST Muslims want homosexuality to be a crime.

[Guest]

Got to be honest Sass, I think didge is right on this. I do not question your concern for gay rights; but there is a massive difference between:
a) a country/group of people by and large thinking gay people should be treated as criminals, and having laws doing as much.
and
b) some sections of societies among groups or a country expressing homophobic views or discriminating, and passing views to stop equality (but not actually criminalize the acts).

This topic is on the former- and in reality, the former is enormously worse than the latter.

And where do we 'STOP' our interference into what faiths are allowed to preach & teach in England or America?  Both of our countries have nearly identically applied FREEDOM OF SPEECH & FREEDOM OF RELIGIOUS beliefs ...just because the archaic Islamic ole' country's can still toss LGBT humans off of buildings - does not mean they are allowed to do that in our country!
There are many in America that do not agree with the KKK but they've every right to be as I do ...and I will fight their VILE BIGOTRY with my love and understanding ...not by trying to force them to think or act the why that 'I' demand of them!
FREEDOM OF RELIGIOUS BELIEFS GOES FOR ALL FAITHS - not just the popular ones that polite society can accept!   

[Guest]

Got to be honest Sass, I think didge is right on this. I do not question your concern for gay rights; but there is a massive difference between:
a) a country/group of people by and large thinking gay people should be treated as criminals, and having laws doing as much.
and
b) some sections of societies among groups or a country expressing homophobic views or discriminating, and passing views to stop equality (but not actually criminalize the acts).

This topic is on the former- and in reality, the former is enormously worse than the latter.

And where do we 'STOP' our interference into what faiths are allowed to preach & teach in England or America?  Both of our countries have nearly identically applied FREEDOM OF SPEECH & FREEDOM OF RELIGIOUS beliefs ...just because the archaic Islamic ole' country's can still toss LGBT humans off of buildings - does not mean they are allowed to do that in our country!
There are many in America tat do not agree with the KKK but they've every right to be as I do ...and I will fight their VILE BIGOTRY with my love and understanding ...not by trying to force them to think or act the why that 'I' demand of them!
FREEDOM OF RELIGIOUS BELIEFS GOES FOR ALL FAITHS - not just the popular ones that polite society can accept!   

Again the lin between free speech and hate speech

Agaim in areas of schooling no such view would be allowed to be taught that homosexuals should face punishment in the vein where it is certainly preached to children by religious groups world over.

So you tell me, why do we allow an exemption to religious preachers, Imans, Rabbis etc to promote views that are fundementally hateful towards not only homosexuals, women and non-believers to that faith? Espically in regards to children?

In every aspct exceptions are made, based solely that it has a deity believed, which is the problem in the first place when we are talking about human values and within religion absolute morals. That do not allow for any challenges or criticism of said literal beliefs.

The problem is we are allowing an exception within th sphere of religious teaching, not in actual schools but in the areana of their religious worship and all this is doing is going to fail to prevent dsicrimination.

No blief should superscede the law, espcially when it does cross over into hate speech

[Eilzel]

Got to be honest Sass, I think didge is right on this. I do not question your concern for gay rights; but there is a massive difference between:
a) a country/group of people by and large thinking gay people should be treated as criminals, and having laws doing as much.
and
b) some sections of societies among groups or a country expressing homophobic views or discriminating, and passing views to stop equality (but not actually criminalize the acts).

This topic is on the former- and in reality, the former is enormously worse than the latter.

And where do we 'STOP' our interference into what faiths are allowed to preach & teach in England or America?  Both of our countries have nearly identically applied FREEDOM OF SPEECH & FREEDOM OF RELIGIOUS beliefs ...just because the archaic Islamic ole' country's can still toss LGBT humans off of buildings - does not mean they are allowed to do that in our country!
There are many in America that do not agree with the KKK but they've every right to be as I do ...and I will fight their VILE BIGOTRY with my love and understanding ...not by trying to force them to think or act the why that 'I' demand of them!
FREEDOM OF RELIGIOUS BELIEFS GOES FOR ALL FAITHS - not just the popular ones that polite society can accept!   

We should close ALL faith schools imo.

And ensure that every child is taught that it is ok to be gay and that all relationships are valid among consenting individuals.

[Guest]

And where do we 'STOP' our interference into what faiths are allowed to preach & teach in England or America?  Both of our countries have nearly identically applied FREEDOM OF SPEECH & FREEDOM OF RELIGIOUS beliefs ...just because the archaic Islamic ole' country's can still toss LGBT humans off of buildings - does not mean they are allowed to do that in our country!
There are many in America that do not agree with the KKK but they've every right to be as I do ...and I will fight their VILE BIGOTRY with my love and understanding ...not by trying to force them to think or act the why that 'I' demand of them!
FREEDOM OF RELIGIOUS BELIEFS GOES FOR ALL FAITHS - not just the popular ones that polite society can accept!   

We should close ALL faith schools imo.

And ensure that every child is taught that it is ok to be gay and that all relationships are valid among consenting individuals.

Seconded.

[Guest]

And where do we 'STOP' our interference into what faiths are allowed to preach & teach in England or America?  Both of our countries have nearly identically applied FREEDOM OF SPEECH & FREEDOM OF RELIGIOUS beliefs ...just because the archaic Islamic ole' country's can still toss LGBT humans off of buildings - does not mean they are allowed to do that in our country!
There are many in America that do not agree with the KKK but they've every right to be as I do ...and I will fight their VILE BIGOTRY with my love and understanding ...not by trying to force them to think or act the why that 'I' demand of them!
FREEDOM OF RELIGIOUS BELIEFS GOES FOR ALL FAITHS - not just the popular ones that polite society can accept!   

We should close ALL faith schools imo.

And ensure that every child is taught that it is ok to be gay and that all relationships are valid among consenting individuals.

Well, as much as I've been accused of having a 'Pollyanna' attitude about certain things ...that would be one of my biggest/longest held ones of my life.  

But after having worked in our Public School System here in the USA ...there are a large segment of teachers that find a way to eek their own religious opinions into a daily lesson plan - an exercise - a group/team event and the principal nor the  parents don't hear it - aren't there to observe the daily dose provided to those little sponges!    

Wasn't it forward thinking of my nations founding fathers to make sure that the separation of 'church & state' was part of our Constitution

[HoratioTarr]

I will add a few more points

Whilst I have no objection to a belief that simply believes homosexuality is a sin, its what it leads to on teachings from this and the possible consquences faced by the gay communit due to such teaching.

Only within religion is such discrimination taught and allowed within societies.
If there was a subject in school of teaching racism against blacks or homophobia against homosexuals. It simply would be denid as a lesson as they are formed not from reason but a prejudice formed against each group.

So is it not a concern that in this case 50% of British Muslims believe homosexuality should be criminalized. Does this not lead to the possible increased risk of discrimination by some Muslims against the LGTB community? Or even hate crimes, of which there is half the number of homosexuals compared to Muslims in this country and yet homosexuals suffer 5 times the number of hate crimes compared to Muslims.

Should we not then be questioning why we allow religious areas of learning that call for homosxuals to be punishd to be then not be considered hate speech?

In any of aspect of life by any group it would be considered hate speech?

I expand this to any religious group as well, whether Christian, Muslim or Jewish.

Why do we allow exceptions for religious belief, when it has no evidence and allow people to promote hate against a people.
Again saying something is wrong or a sin is a view expressed. Promoting hate towards people that they in some way are abhorrant and that they should suffer for this. Is hate speech.

But isn't believing something is a sin the whole cause of the problems?

[HoratioTarr]

You don't have to be, but that is very often the case. Pretending it isn't a problem within the Islamic community is dangerous. I know many Muslims who have no problem with people being gay, but they are just the few I know. No one refutes the poll in the UK that says most want it criminalised and that has to be addressed and tackled, in schools would be a start.

ARe they pretending though, or just trying really hard not to rise to the bait and therefore damper down even more hatred? One has to ask that question.

[HoratioTarr]

Again pople are not denying again based around literal belief and neo-conservatism in America is still a problem to be tackled, but we are talking about in places where hate crimes are increasing and homosexuals and criminalized by the law based off beliefs.

Again what is more important here is where teaching crosses over from a simple view of viewing something as a sin, to down right hate to call for the punishment of homosexuals. In the west we make absurd allowances with religion, For what in any other aspect of work, school etc, would be deemed hate speech.

My view is this is teaching intolerance to children and within religion this is allowed in a teaching capacity based around faiths

Sin, by its nature and as perceived by most religions, is reason or excuse enough to hound and bully.    If a sin accepted as a sin then it can grow into hatred.   History has shown us just how humans love murdering others for their 'sins'.    

I agree, we need to teach children more about compassion, and tolerance.  Sadly,  this also has to be backed up by your home life and way too many children are corrupted not at school but at home.

[eddie]

Closing down faith schools isn't going to solve anything and why shouldn't people be alloŵed to attend a religious school?

Religious books need to be brought into the 21st century, updated and taught the proper way within a chosen religion.

[HoratioTarr]

Got to be honest Sass, I think didge is right on this. I do not question your concern for gay rights; but there is a massive difference between:

a) a country/group of people by and large thinking gay people should be treated as criminals, and having laws doing as much.

and

b) some sections of societies among groups or a country expressing homophobic views or discriminating, and passing views to stop equality (but not actually criminalize the acts).

This topic is on the former- and in reality, the former is enormously worse than the latter.

It wasn't that long ago here in the UK that it was illegal to be homosexual. 1967 for England. 1980 for Scotland, and 1982 for Ireland. Nationwide legalised homosexuality has only been in force in the USA since 2003.

Odd that there doesn't seem to be the same hoohah about lesbians. In fact, in the UK, lesbianism has never been illegal. Where's the equality in that?

[HoratioTarr]

Closing down faith schools isn't going to solve anything and why shouldn't people be alloŵed to attend a religious school?

Religious books need to be brought into the 21st century, updated and taught the proper way within a chosen religion.

Why mix schooling with religion? It should be separate.

[eddie]

Closing down faith schools isn't going to solve anything and why shouldn't people be alloŵed to attend a religious school?

Religious books need to be brought into the 21st century, updated and taught the proper way within a chosen religion.

Why mix schooling with religion?   It should be separate.    

They have normal lessons and then they have religious teachings or lessons.
I can't see a problem. Not my cup of tea personally, but I don't se any harm in a religious school.

[nicko]

Why beat around the bush, saying there should be no religious Schools means there should be no Muslim Schools as we don't know what they are teaching impressionable young children.

[Guest]

Why beat around the bush,     saying there should be no religious Schools means there should be no Muslim Schools as we don't know what they are teaching impressionable young children.

So you haven't seen the reports of illegal Jewish schools that are teaching nothing but Hebrew and the children don't take any of the normal subjects?

http://hackneycitizen.co.uk/2016/04/05/illegal-jewish-schools-council-denies-cover-up/

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/illegal-jewish-schools-doe-covered-abuse-disappearance-pupils-1552902

Charedi Talmud Torah Tashbar: Stamford Hill Jewish school that does not teach English ordered to close
Ofsted inspectors had warned that it was failing to meet the 'minimum' standards required
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/charedi-talmud-torah-tashbar-stamford-hill-jewish-school-that-does-not-teach-english-ordered-to-a6813041.html   







ALL religious schools means what is says, ALL religious schools.

[Guest]

I will add a few more points

Whilst I have no objection to a belief that simply believes homosexuality is a sin, its what it leads to on teachings from this and the possible consquences faced by the gay communit due to such teaching.

Only within religion is such discrimination taught and allowed within societies.
If there was a subject in school of teaching racism against blacks or homophobia against homosexuals. It simply would be denid as a lesson as they are formed not from reason but a prejudice formed against each group.

So is it not a concern that in this case 50% of British Muslims believe homosexuality should be criminalized. Does this not lead to the possible increased risk of discrimination by some Muslims against the LGTB community? Or even hate crimes, of which there is half the number of homosexuals compared to Muslims in this country and yet homosexuals suffer 5 times the number of hate crimes compared to Muslims.

Should we not then be questioning why we allow religious areas of learning that call for homosxuals to be punishd to be then not be considered hate speech?

In any of aspect of life by any group it would be considered hate speech?

I expand this to any religious group as well, whether Christian, Muslim or Jewish.

Why do we allow exceptions for religious belief, when it has no evidence and allow people to promote hate against a people.
Again saying something is wrong or a sin is a view expressed. Promoting hate towards people that they in some way are abhorrant and that they should suffer for this. Is hate speech.

But isn't believing something is a sin the whole cause of the problems?

is it?

If you think homosexuality is wrong, does that also mean you hate homosexuals?

No

Its when people preach hate against them

You understand the difference?

[Guest]

Again pople are not denying again based around literal belief and neo-conservatism in America is still a problem to be tackled, but we are talking about in places where hate crimes are increasing and homosexuals and criminalized by the law based off beliefs.

Again what is more important here is where teaching crosses over from a simple view of viewing something as a sin, to down right hate to call for the punishment of homosexuals. In the west we make absurd allowances with religion, For what in any other aspect of work, school etc, would be deemed hate speech.

My view is this is teaching intolerance to children and within religion this is allowed in a teaching capacity based around faiths

Sin, by its nature and as perceived by most religions, is reason or excuse enough to hound and bully.    If a sin accepted as a sin then it can grow into hatred.   History has shown us just how humans love murdering others for their 'sins'.    

I agree, we need to teach children more about compassion, and tolerance.  Sadly,  this also has to be backed up by your home life and way too many children are corrupted not at school but at home.

A sin is a sin, and if blievers are taught their deity will deliver punishment to constant sinners, does that mean the beliver then is going to then hound and bully a homosexual?

The very fact that 50% of Muslims do not believe it should be criminalized proves that to you.

Its when its taught that it should be punishable and criminalized, that then crosses over into hate speech

[Eilzel]

Closing down faith schools isn't going to solve anything and why shouldn't people be alloŵed to attend a religious school?

Religious books need to be brought into the 21st century, updated and taught the proper way within a chosen religion.

If you think religious groups are going to let anyone 'alter' their books you are not paying attention to how religions work, especially Islam. Are you suggesting they edit the word of god?

You would have better chances closing the schools.

Religious schools would be ok of they did not teach such wonderful things as being gay is wrong, women should be obedient to their men, apostasy is bad, nonbelievers will go to hell and whatever else.

Now I know not all teach all those things, but many will teach some of them- and WHY is that allowed?

The edication should be equally as good in non faith schools shouldn't it?

Close them down. No good reason not to.

[veya_victaous]

close them down also cause they are Wrong
the teach there is a sky giant when there is not.

religion and education do not mix.
Secular nations should have zero religion within their institutions.

[nicko]

Sassy, I knew you'd bring up jewish Schools,do tell me,weather they preach hate against other religions and tell their pupils to kill the Christians?

[Fuzzy Zack]

What happened to keeping religion and politics out of school?

Lol!

Keep your beliefs out of school, right?

Some of you are very hypocritical

[Fuzzy Zack]

Sassy, I knew you'd bring up jewish Schools,do tell me,weather they preach hate against other religions and tell their pupils to kill the Christians?

They do, in some schools in Israel, teach to hate Arabs.

[Fuzzy Zack]

And FYI: 52% of 1081 people doesn't mean much.

[eddie]

Closing down faith schools isn't going to solve anything and why shouldn't people be alloŵed to attend a religious school?

Religious books need to be brought into the 21st century, updated and taught the proper way within a chosen religion.

If you think religious groups are going to let anyone 'alter' their books you are not paying attention to how religions work, especially Islam. Are you suggesting they edit the word of god?

You would have better chances closing the schools.

Religious schools would be ok of they did not teach such wonderful things as being gay is wrong, women should be obedient to their men, apostasy is bad, nonbelievers will go to hell and whatever else.

Now I know not all teach all those things, but many will teach some of them- and WHY is that allowed?

The edication should be equally as good in non faith schools shouldn't it?

Close them down. No good reason not to.

The bible got updated.
Lots of new Christian groups have changed their interpretations and teachings too.

So it can be done.

And Les, coming from a minority group that's been persecuted since time began, I'm surprised you'd want to "punish" people by closing down schools that wish to teach religion

So you're all for the free speech that you like, then?

[Guest]

What happened to keeping religion and politics out of school?

Lol!

Keep your beliefs out of school, right?

Some of you are very hypocritical

Nobody said religion should not be a subject

Again religions are allowed an exception when it comes to equality and that is just blatantly absurd and wrong

As to Eddies point

No religious people have adapted to secualrism, enlightenment, equality etc within the religions

The bible has never ben updated, parts hav ben ommitted or included from ancint text.

So I have no idea what bible you hav read

[Eilzel]

Did I say I opposed the teaching of religion? No. Every child should be taught about ALL religions EQUALLY. Not that one is right and superior to all others. That's fair wouldn't you agree?

Changing interpretations is not the same as changing the texts. Ask a Muslim how they feel about the idea of altering the Koran.

Can you tell me exactly how I'm punishing anyone? And how asking for all religions to be taught equally is the same as the persecution of gay people?

[eddie]

I don't think you should try to tell people what to believe or what to read or what to learn.

If people want to live according to a religious text then let them.

Who made any of you in charge of what people should believe???

[Eilzel]

Again you are misreading. People believe what they want, but in SCHOOL all religions should be taught equally. Otherwise it is just forcing beliefs on children.

Btw, religious laws based on beliefs are killing people all over the world- but ignore that if you want to continue to think religious beliefs are all flowers and church contributions

[Guest]

I don't think you should try to tell people what to believe or what to read or what to learn.

If people want to live according to a religious text then let them.

Who made any of you in charge of what people should believe???

We teach peopl veryday in school allowing them to decide what they wish to believe in

The problem is again with religion an exception is allowed to preach hate speech which happens in religious churchs, Mosques, where children attend.

That to me is child abuse, as they are being taught absolute morals and not to question them.

Well Allah has ben placed in charge of the life of all Muslims

In my life, the only people in charge are those democratically elected

Our laws are based on reason, where as in religion they are based on the views of men centuries ago, which effect the well being and equality of others.

So based on who am i to say what people believe?

I am not, I am simply challenging and question why excemptions are made for religion, when not such views would be taught to children in school. As they are in religion that women are inferior and that homosexuality is punishable by death

You tell me Eddie, do you think that is right to teach a child?

[Guest]

Howdy doody Les.   Not saying there is not a problem, because even in Tunisia I had discussions about it and tried to change people's minds.   In America AS A WHOLE it isn't a problem, however, there are swathes of the bible belt where it really, really is.    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/06/whats-behind-the-wave-of-anti-lgbt-laws-sweeping-across-the-usa/

You'll get no disagreement from me on the fact that Bible Belt Americans are backward neanderthals on gay rights, especially compared to the coasts. But even their laws stop way short of outright forbidding gay relations of every kind as is the case in Muslim communities.

I would feel unwelcome in the Bible Belt; I would fear for my freedom or life in most Muslim nations.

One thing about all of this; as our ability to be connected via these media tools & hand held phone systems {whether it be Ipad/twitter/FB/tablet} the world is shrinking and those that have tried to repress their youth and CONTROL their way of thinking are finding it ever so hard to do.  In this the 21st century those with the alternative lifestyles are able to find 'like minded' humans around the globe ...so they know "I AM NOT THE DEMONIC - ODD HUMAN IN THIS SITUATION" there are more like me and despite the preaching - the Islamic diatribe - the threats of violence - the horrors of death to my friends ...the LGBT people still exist and they have since humanity has risen out of the single cell life form!

That's what technology is doing for those unfortunate young people being brutalized by the very faith that they were born in.  And nothing will change that - EVER - education and knowledge, it's a powerful force!

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