Switzerland rejects proposals for unconditional basic income by overwhelming majority

Switzerland has voted by an overwhelming majority to reject proposals for a universal basic income, according to projections based on a partial count of the vote. Around 78 per cent of voters rejected the policy, a projection by gfs.bern suggests. Had it passed, anyone legally residing in Switzerland would have received suggested basic income of 2,500 Swiss Francs (£1,755) every month whether they worked or not.

Supporters for the basic income had said that half the work done in Switzerland is unpaid such as housework and care in the community.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/switzerland-rejects-proposals-for-unconditional-basic-income-by-overwhelming-majority-a7066176.html

I!f it had been passed it would be standing room only in Switzerland

nicko wrote:I!f it had been passed it would be standing room only in Switzerland

They are not in the EU though Nicko.
But still you make a valid point as you would know doubt see countless immigrants flock there.

Sad to see it voted down, we're all going to need something like this when the machines take 40 percent of our jobs.

Ben_Reilly wrote:Sad to see it voted down, we're all going to need something like this when the machines take 40 percent of our jobs.

Pessimist


Other jobs have always been created

Machines have been replacing people for a few centuries now.

Like i say Nicko was on the right track why they would have voted this down, as it would be like a massive beacon for Immigrants to head to for an easy life. You see this is the problem, the attraction of western countries that draw in too many people for the nations to cope with and again those who hold beliefs that are in conflict with our ways of life.

Paul Ettinger wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Sad to see it voted down, we're all going to need something like this when the machines take 40 percent of our jobs.

Pessimist


Other jobs have always been created

Machines have been replacing people for a few centuries now.

Like i say Nicko was on the right track why they would have voted this down, as it would be like a massive beacon for Immigrants to head to for an easy life. You see this is the problem, the attraction of western countries that draw in too many people for the nations to cope with and again those who hold beliefs that are in conflict with our ways of life.

I think your take on it is actually pretty pessimistic itself. Western countries attract immigration because we're doing right by our people. We should be proud that people want to live in our countries.

To say, "let's not make life too good here or poor people might want to come" is really cynical.

Paul Ettinger wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Sad to see it voted down, we're all going to need something like this when the machines take 40 percent of our jobs.

Pessimist


Other jobs have always been created

Machines have been replacing people for a few centuries now.

Like i say Nicko was on the right track why they would have voted this down, as it would be like a massive beacon for Immigrants to head to for an easy life. You see this is the problem, the attraction of western countries that draw in too many people for the nations to cope with and again those who hold beliefs that are in conflict with our ways of life.

we are rapidly running out of a need for hair dressers, nail artists and bog cleaners didge.....

Lord Foul wrote:

Paul Ettinger wrote:

Pessimist


Other jobs have always been created

Machines have been replacing people for a few centuries now.

Like i say Nicko was on the right track why they would have voted this down, as it would be like a massive beacon for Immigrants to head to for an easy life. You see this is the problem, the attraction of western countries that draw in too many people for the nations to cope with and again those who hold beliefs that are in conflict with our ways of life.

we are rapidly running out of a need for hair dressers, nail artists and bog cleaners didge.....

You are not thinking outside the box Victor.
Look at how many different types of jobs there are today than there was just a couple of decades ago?
New ideas create new jobs all the time.
In he future many people could be colonists on the Moon and the Moon Titan or Mars for example.
Who knows but the reality is jobs are always being created.

Lord Foul wrote:

Paul Ettinger wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Sad to see it voted down, we're all going to need something like this when the machines take 40 percent of our jobs.

Pessimist


Other jobs have always been created

Machines have been replacing people for a few centuries now.

Like i say Nicko was on the right track why they would have voted this down, as it would be like a massive beacon for Immigrants to head to for an easy life. You see this is the problem, the attraction of western countries that draw in too many people for the nations to cope with and again those who hold beliefs that are in conflict with our ways of life.

we are rapidly running out of a need for hair dressers, nail artists and bog cleaners didge.....

We do need more vajazzlers, though.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Paul Ettinger wrote:

Pessimist


Other jobs have always been created

Machines have been replacing people for a few centuries now.

Like i say Nicko was on the right track why they would have voted this down, as it would be like a massive beacon for Immigrants to head to for an easy life. You see this is the problem, the attraction of western countries that draw in too many people for the nations to cope with and again those who hold beliefs that are in conflict with our ways of life.

I think your take on it is actually pretty pessimistic itself. Western countries attract immigration because we're doing right by our people. We should be proud that people want to live in our countries.

To say, "let's not make life too good here or poor people might want to come" is really cynical.

Yes but doing right by people then bringing people who conflict with those people is then not doing right by them is it?

That is not being pessimistic but realistic.

Look the first generations that came here in the 50's and 60's integrated and now we are seeing their grand children or new arrivals being influenced and finanaced by Wahhabism in Mosques and schools which is teaching intolerance of others.

Paul Ettinger wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:

Paul Ettinger wrote:

Pessimist


Other jobs have always been created

Machines have been replacing people for a few centuries now.

Like i say Nicko was on the right track why they would have voted this down, as it would be like a massive beacon for Immigrants to head to for an easy life. You see this is the problem, the attraction of western countries that draw in too many people for the nations to cope with and again those who hold beliefs that are in conflict with our ways of life.

we are rapidly running out of a need for hair dressers, nail artists and bog cleaners didge.....

You are not thinking outside the box Victor.
Look at how many different types of jobs there are today than there was just a couple of decades ago?
New ideas create new jobs all the time.
In he future many people could be colonists on the Moon and the Moon Titan or Mars for example.
Who knows but the reality is jobs are always being created.

true BUT...whilst the "variety" of jobs may have increased the actual number of "job places" has decreased..AND such jobs as are available are generally low pay/low satisfaction jobs

yes we have 1000's of shelf stackers in supermarkets, poorly paid and almost to a man miserable with their lot
we have 1000's of fast food workers ...same applies....

etc etc etc

Lord Foul wrote:

Paul Ettinger wrote:


You are not thinking outside the box Victor.
Look at how many different types of jobs there are today than there was just a couple of decades ago?
New ideas create new jobs all the time.
In he future many people could be colonists on the Moon and the Moon Titan or Mars for example.
Who knows but the reality is jobs are always being created.

true BUT...whilst the "variety" of jobs may have increased  the actual number of "job places" has decreased..AND such jobs as are available are generally low pay/low satisfaction jobs

yes we have 1000's of shelf stackers in supermarkets, poorly paid and almost to a man miserable with their lot
we have 1000's of fast food workers ...same applies....

etc etc etc

I disagree and we have more people in employment than any other time in history.
Well if the pay is low, that is something that needs to be worked on but would rather it stays low as it makes us not so much of an attraction to come here. Again as people are getting older and their numbers increase, more will be needed to care for them

Paul Ettinger wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Paul Ettinger wrote:

Pessimist


Other jobs have always been created

Machines have been replacing people for a few centuries now.

Like i say Nicko was on the right track why they would have voted this down, as it would be like a massive beacon for Immigrants to head to for an easy life. You see this is the problem, the attraction of western countries that draw in too many people for the nations to cope with and again those who hold beliefs that are in conflict with our ways of life.

I think your take on it is actually pretty pessimistic itself. Western countries attract immigration because we're doing right by our people. We should be proud that people want to live in our countries.

To say, "let's not make life too good here or poor people might want to come" is really cynical.

Yes but doing right by people then bringing people who conflict with those people is then not doing right by them is it?

That is not being pessimistic but realistic.

Look the first generations that came here in the 50's and 60's integrated and now we are seeing their grand children or new arrivals being influenced and finanaced by Wahhabism in Mosques and schools which is teaching intolerance of others.

Wherefore this assumption that the immigrants won't get along with the locals?

Paul Ettinger wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:

Paul Ettinger wrote:


You are not thinking outside the box Victor.
Look at how many different types of jobs there are today than there was just a couple of decades ago?
New ideas create new jobs all the time.
In he future many people could be colonists on the Moon and the Moon Titan or Mars for example.
Who knows but the reality is jobs are always being created.

true BUT...whilst the "variety" of jobs may have increased  the actual number of "job places" has decreased..AND such jobs as are available are generally low pay/low satisfaction jobs

yes we have 1000's of shelf stackers in supermarkets, poorly paid and almost to a man miserable with their lot
we have 1000's of fast food workers ...same applies....

etc etc etc

I disagree and we have more people in employment than any other time in history.
Well if the pay is low, that is something that needs to be worked on but would rather it stays low as it makes us not so much of an attraction to come here. Again as people are getting older and their numbers increase, more will be needed to care for them

So you would condemn 10's 1000 and more to a miserable low income life....(back to the victorian era)...just to keep some migrants out???

and care home wont take up the numbers anyway...most are direly understaffed as it is...

most care homes are nothing but cash generators on the back of the elderly and therfor vulnerable and on the back of (mainlky) young, inexperienced, easily manipulated and sometimes just plain dumb and poorly trained staff.....

Lord Foul wrote:

Paul Ettinger wrote:


I disagree and we have more people in employment than any other time in history.
Well if the pay is low, that is something that needs to be worked on but would rather it stays low as it makes us not so much of an attraction to come here. Again as people are getting older and their numbers increase, more will be needed to care for them

So you would condemn 10's 1000 and more to a miserable low income life....(back to the victorian era)...just to keep some migrants out???

and care home wont take up the numbers anyway...most are direly understaffed as it is...

most care homes are nothing but cash generators on the back of the elderly and therfor vulnerable and on the back of (mainlky) young, inexperienced, easily manipulated and sometimes just plain dumb and poorly trained staff.....

How is it condemned?
Its what is affordable and if we increase the rate of pay then many of the foreign companies we have will simply pull out.
Its not as staright forward as you are making out and even Uk businesses would move to wear there is cheaper labour
Well considering by the year 2050 one quarter of the uk will be over 65 I think very much it will fill up many roles not only in care but medical needs as well. That is then medicines, doctors, nurses, and all the other staff that goes with this

Lord Foul wrote:

Paul Ettinger wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:

Paul Ettinger wrote:


You are not thinking outside the box Victor.
Look at how many different types of jobs there are today than there was just a couple of decades ago?
New ideas create new jobs all the time.
In he future many people could be colonists on the Moon and the Moon Titan or Mars for example.
Who knows but the reality is jobs are always being created.

true BUT...whilst the "variety" of jobs may have increased  the actual number of "job places" has decreased..AND such jobs as are available are generally low pay/low satisfaction jobs

yes we have 1000's of shelf stackers in supermarkets, poorly paid and almost to a man miserable with their lot
we have 1000's of fast food workers ...same applies....

etc etc etc

I disagree and we have more people in employment than any other time in history.
Well if the pay is low, that is something that needs to be worked on but would rather it stays low as it makes us not so much of an attraction to come here. Again as people are getting older and their numbers increase, more will be needed to care for them

So you would condemn 10's 1000 and more to a miserable low income life....(back to the victorian era)...just to keep some migrants out???

and care home wont take up the numbers anyway...most are direly understaffed as it is...

most care homes are nothing but cash generators on the back of the elderly and therfor vulnerable and on the back of (mainlky) young, inexperienced, easily manipulated and sometimes just plain dumb and poorly trained staff.....

Whereas with basic income, those miserable jobs become a chance to earn some money for entertainment, gadgets, travel ... they become something you do because you want something, not because you have to. Companies will no longer be under pressure to provide a living wage for menial work, and a lot of welfare benefits could surely be cut with the basic income taking its place.

Isn't a vajazzler someone who sticks jewels on a vagina?

Aghhhh.....eddie said THAT word.......I'm going to tell on you.......

Who you gonna tell?

Good on the Swiss... can we get rid of the over generous system of tax credits we have here now...!?

Strangely tommy I'd be inclined to agree with you...on the condition that FIRST...the minimum wage is raised to £15 an hour
that rent controls are brought in, forcing rents to no more than 30% of the average take home pay in the area
and that the corporate cheats are brought to book......

More just treating symptoms rather than curing the disease... and adding massive side effects...

Lord Foul wrote:Strangely tommy I'd be inclined to agree with you...on the condition that FIRST...the minimum wage is raised to £15 an hour
that rent controls are brought in, forcing rents to no more than 30% of the average take home pay in the area
and that the corporate cheats are brought to book......

So you want the lowest pay to be basically 30k per year for many unskilled jobs and then what knock on effect is thaat going to have on skilled jobs?
You are being unrealistic and putting the money up so high will make many people not even bother to seek a career within a skilled position as they will have no need to do so
£10.5 for the capital and £9 for the rest of the Uk based on living costs

yeah tommy...you would have to pay a proper price for your fast food...groceries etc....

why should a working single mum (single becasue her "partner" couldnt keep his cock in his trousers) get paid only minimum wage for the heavy responsibility and hours of training/study involved in being a nursery nurse....and then be charged over £750 a month for rent for a home for her and her two kids??? whilst at the same time having to accept part time only...becasue of the impossibility of getting, let alone doing a second job...considering she has to deliver/collect kids from school...?

So, I assume both you and tommy support and condone social inequality...


oh and btw...many many minimum wage jobs are NOT unskilled....

AND...this is one of the many problems that infest out care homes didge...

the carers get minimum wage....

hence they dont "care"

there is truth to some extent in the old agdage "pay peanuts, get monkeys"

Lord Foul wrote:So, I assume both you and tommy support and condone social inequality...


oh and btw...many many minimum wage jobs are NOT unskilled....

Compared to the qualifications you need for others, yes they are basically unskilled and do not use the guilt trip methodology on me mate as it will not work.
A single mother rightly is going to have help with tax credits and  it should be the father accountable to help pay for the child. What you are claiming is the companies have a responisbility because of the failures now of relationships.
Again with the amount you claim many could go throughout school not even having to bother as where is the incentive when they can walk out of school and work in Macdonalds for 30k a year wiping tables?

some didge ...some...

nursery nurse is NOT unskilled...far from it

I have seen electronics tchnician jbs offered at minimum wage....

and theres plenty more...

there should be full employment ...and then wages would respond to market forces....not greedy bosses out to get fat off the back of the worker drones...

Lord Foul wrote:some didge ...some...

nursery nurse is NOT unskilled...far from it

I have seen electronics tchnician jbs offered at minimum wage....

and theres plenty more...

there should be full employment ...and then wages would respond to market forces....not greedy bosses out to get fat off the back of the worker drones...

You are making some cases which is not the norm though and again my point is where is the incentive for children to even bother at school if they can walk out of school knowing they do not have to even bother?
I understand your point on greedy boses, but you would so have many knock on effects it would simply not be workable at that high a rate of pay.
As I say, what would you then have to increase the pay of those then in skilled job roles to then make them attractive for people to even learn these skills?

Paul Ettinger wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:some didge ...some...

nursery nurse is NOT unskilled...far from it

I have seen electronics tchnician jbs offered at minimum wage....

and theres plenty more...

there should be full employment ...and then wages would respond to market forces....not greedy bosses out to get fat off the back of the worker drones...

You are making some cases which is not the norm though and again my point is where is the incentive for children to even bother at school if they can walk out of school knowing they do not have to even bother?
I understand your point on greedy boses, but you would so have many knock on effects it would simply not be workable at that high a rate of pay.
As I say, what would you then have to increase the pay of those then in skilled job roles to then make them attractive for people to even learn these skills?

mmm... there is something in what you say of course....BUT...you do realise dont you that "Tax credits" are just another way for the govt to "subsidise industries" since DIRECTLY subsidising them is not allowed under EU rules

so instead of paying a company a subsidy to enable it to pay decent wages and stay afloat...they allow dismal wages , then top those up with tax credits....which is of course fair enough...it matters NOT where the worker gets his money from in reality.....BUT the problem then becomes morons who, like tommy, then start whinging that someone is getting a bit of help....


Oh and I asked for £15 to get what you offered ...£10......

you do realise I WAS a shop steward????

lol no I had no idea mate.

I am all for supporting people who need help.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Paul Ettinger wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Sad to see it voted down, we're all going to need something like this when the machines take 40 percent of our jobs.

Pessimist


Other jobs have always been created

Machines have been replacing people for a few centuries now.

Like i say Nicko was on the right track why they would have voted this down, as it would be like a massive beacon for Immigrants to head to for an easy life. You see this is the problem, the attraction of western countries that draw in too many people for the nations to cope with and again those who hold beliefs that are in conflict with our ways of life.

I think your take on it is actually pretty pessimistic itself. Western countries attract immigration because we're doing right by our people. We should be proud that people want to live in our countries.

To say, "let's not make life too good here or poor people might want to come" is really cynical.

Yes the a society cannot have Eutopia while it has people like didge, more worried about defending his little hill than the qualtiy of life or the reality of the future.

Mass immigration pushes up rents and costs of living while holding down wages... this is the disease!!!


If a woman chooses to have children with a twat who is a feckless waste of oxygen then that is her choice... not my responsibility...


If you want to bump up wages for lowest then you must also bump up others by same percentage as it is bullshit to think you can pay unskilled labour at the same ra
te as other skilled and professionals etc...


Then the immediate strain on businesses makes most unprofitable and makes them go bust... cheaper to import from abroad than do here with such costs...


Mass unemployment ensues...


Everyone suddenly becomes poor and in need of benefits...


Govt finances fucked... mass fall in revenue and mass rise in costs and borrowing and subsequent in interest payments... spiralling into oblivion...

the disease is the hill shepherd locals that are too inefficient and ineffective at a job, someone that just arrived often not even speaking the language fluently is better than you, If you're losing your job to immigrants than it is clearly YOUR work ethic that is the issue as someone with less experience and no connections can do it more effectively than you which is why they are being employed over you.

Lol... you have to compete with abroad end of story, globalisation is reality, No England is not powerful enough to have any say in the matter. Don't want to be competitive then don't complain when you lose the competition for jobs and wealth


yes those Easy manual labor jobs pay $US50-100 a MONTH that is the value of that sort of labor. it's Supply and demand like every other resource.

Wrong... not losing my job to anyone... money is just being kept down while costs of living have risen massively.

Standards of living have fallen.

Paul Ettinger wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:Strangely tommy I'd be inclined to agree with you...on the condition that FIRST...the minimum wage is raised to £15 an hour
that rent controls are brought in, forcing rents to no more than 30% of the average take home pay in the area
and that the corporate cheats are brought to book......

So you want the lowest pay to be basically 30k per year for many unskilled jobs and then what knock on effect is thaat going to have on skilled jobs?
You are being unrealistic and putting the money up so high will make many people not even bother to seek a career within a skilled position as they will have no need to do so
£10.5 for the capital and £9 for the rest of the Uk based on living costs

Have to agree with Didge here - though £15 per hour sounds lovely for minimum wage!

Vic, £15? Where did you come up with that?

Paul Ettinger wrote:Switzerland has voted by an overwhelming majority to reject proposals for a universal basic income, according to projections based on a partial count of the vote. Around 78 per cent of voters rejected the policy, a projection by gfs.bern suggests. Had it passed, anyone legally residing in Switzerland would have received suggested basic income of 2,500 Swiss Francs (£1,755) every month whether they worked or not.

Supporters for the basic income had said that half the work done in Switzerland is unpaid such as housework and care in the community.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/switzerland-rejects-proposals-for-unconditional-basic-income-by-overwhelming-majority-a7066176.html

The supporters think that people should be paid to do their own housework? Crazy idea.

eddie wrote:

Paul Ettinger wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:Strangely tommy I'd be inclined to agree with you...on the condition that FIRST...the minimum wage is raised to £15 an hour
that rent controls are brought in, forcing rents to no more than 30% of the average take home pay in the area
and that the corporate cheats are brought to book......

So you want the lowest pay to be basically 30k per year for many unskilled jobs and then what knock on effect is thaat going to have on skilled jobs?
You are being unrealistic and putting the money up so high will make many people not even bother to seek a career within a skilled position as they will have no need to do so
£10.5 for the capital and £9 for the rest of the Uk based on living costs

Have to agree with Didge here - though £15 per hour sounds lovely for minimum wage!

Vic, £15? Where did you come up with that?

shop steward training,,,think of a reasonable figure then ask for at least half as much again......

then your boss will likely settle on the figure you REALLY wanted in the first place......

Tommy Monk wrote:Wrong... not losing my job to anyone... money is just being kept down while costs of living have risen massively.

Standards of living have fallen.

it's not just you the individual, whole industries are leaving
thus is the way of the world, none of this is unique in any way to the UK.

the only real solution is revolution agaisnt the billionaires, which is why they keep distracting you with Muslims etc.

That is down to increasing costs here... and it being cheaper elsewhere...

Lord Foul wrote:

Paul Ettinger wrote:
You are not thinking outside the box Victor.
Look at how many different types of jobs there are today than there was just a couple of decades ago?
New ideas create new jobs all the time.
In he future many people could be colonists on the Moon and the Moon Titan or Mars for example.
Who knows but the reality is jobs are always being created.

true BUT...whilst the "variety" of jobs may have increased  the actual number of "job places" has decreased..AND such jobs as are available are generally low pay/low satisfaction jobs

yes we have 1000's of shelf stackers in supermarkets, poorly paid and almost to a man miserable with their lot
we have 1000's of fast food workers ...same applies....

etc etc etc

AND ALSO, it's a fact that many "new" jobs are part-time, casual, or short-term/contract/insecure jobs; as well as the majority being poorly paid...

A LOT OF "new" work is so poor, temporary or dubious, that many workers will never be able to finance ordinary loans, let alone even dream about home loans..

The real world supply of fulltime occupations with long term promise or any real "job security" has actually been going backwards since the beginning of this century !    

Tommy Monk wrote:That is down to increasing costs here... and it being cheaper elsewhere...

yes, so until British(or other higher paid) people are willing to work for a few dollars a day it always will be. the Billionaire needs to make more money

the living costs, has gone up across the world due to 2 billion people through out Asia moving from 3rd world to middle class consumers