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The Zimmerman / Martin Case

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Post by Ben Reilly on Thu May 12, 2016 6:56 pm

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(Reuters) - The Florida man who shot and killed black teenager Trayvon Martin - triggering nationwide civil rights protests - planned to sell the gun he used in an auction on Thursday and to spend some of the proceeds to challenge gun control policies, the auction website said.

The one-day auction was to begin at 11 a.m. EST (1500 GMT), with bids to start at $5,000. But the listing disappeared from the site soon after its scheduled start.

Representatives for the website offering the handgun for sale, Gunbroker.com, did not immediately respond to questions about why the listing came down and whether the gun had been sold.

The shooter, George Zimmerman, had described the gun as "a piece of American history," according to the website.

U.S. Department of Justice recently returned to Zimmerman the Kel Tec 9mm pistol that he had used to kill the unarmed Martin on Feb. 26, 2012.

Daryl Parks, a lawyer for Martin's family, called the potential gun sale offensive in a phone interview but said the family remain focused on their work advocating against gun violence.

"It's a distraction, and it shouldn't be a distraction to what we're doing," said Parks, who also serves as chairman of the Trayvon Martin Foundation.

Zimmerman was acquitted of second-degree murder and manslaughter charges in the incident, which sparked civil rights rallies and brought scrutiny of Florida's controversial "stand your ground" law.

The law allows a potential crime victim who is "in fear of great bodily injury" to use deadly force in public places.

Zimmerman, who was a neighborhood watch volunteer at the time, has maintained that the shooting was in self-defense. Martin's family said the teenager was simply passing through the residential area on his way home from a convenience store.

President Barack Obama said after Zimmerman's acquittal that Martin "could have been me, 35 years ago" and urged Americans to understand the pain African Americans felt over the case.

'SOCIOPATH'

"George Zimmerman" quickly became the top trending term on Twitter in the United States on Thursday, with many users on the social media site expressing shock and revulsion.

"The only people worse than George Zimmerman are the people who bid on that gun," tweeted journalist and columnist Lyz Lenz.

National Review columnist Charles C. W. Cooke said Zimmerman "may have acted legally, but the man is a sociopath."

On the auction website, Zimmerman had said he planned to use part of the proceeds to fight Black Lives Matter, a movement that grew out of the incident, as well as to counter "violence against law enforcement officers."

Proceeds would also go towards fighting Democratic presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton's "anti-firearm rhetoric," he said.

"I am honored and humbled to announce the sale of an American firearm icon. The firearm for sale is the firearm that was used to defend my life and end the brutal attack from Trayvon Martin," he said on the site.

The number from the Martin case is written on the pistol in silver permanent marker. The auction listing included a photo of the gun being held up in court by a law enforcement officer during Zimmerman's murder trial.

Zimmerman said in the description that "many have expressed interest in owning and displaying the firearm, including The Smithsonian Museum in Washington D.C."

The Smithsonian replied on Twitter that it had never expressed interest in the gun, and had "no plans to ever collect or display it in any museums."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/man-killed-black-teenager-florida-auction-off-gun-103622143.html?nhp=1
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Post by Raggamuffin on Fri May 13, 2016 5:05 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Why would Zimmerman need a second hearing? He was acquitted in a court of law - he didn't need anything else. The jury was unanimous actually - they all found him not guilty.

All juries in criminal matters must be unanimous, or it's called a 'hung jury'.

An adjudication of 'not guilty' is not the same as an adjudication of 'legally innocent'.  In certain cases--police officials, for example, where it affects their ability to carry on as such--a person who has been adjudicated 'not guilty' will ask the court to further adjudicate that s/he is lawfully innocent.  'Not guilty' says the evidence is not sufficient to find the person guilty; 'lawfully innocent' says the evidence is indeed sufficient to determine that the person did not commit the crime.

Take it up with Wolfman - he's the one who said the jury wasn't unanimous.

It must be a different system over there - over here, not guilty is not guilty. The jury doesn't explain why. In Scotland I think they have a not proven option.
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Post by Raggamuffin on Fri May 13, 2016 5:06 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Custody? I don't know about that. Isn't a protection programme different? The point is that you were asking why he would be in a protection programme, and I explained. There was a lot of outrage from people who thought he got away with murder, and a lot of threats. The fact is that he was acquitted and he's entitled to go about his business without being harassed and threatened.

The only protection programs of which I know are maintained by state or federal justice departments for those who testify on behalf of the government, and thereby put themselves in jeopardy of life or limb in retaliation (or anticipation).  Quite often they are accused themselves and they gain a diversion into the program by offering testimony--otherwise known as copping a plea.

In Zimmerman's case, he is not even subject to the jurisdiction of a court or government.  Nor is he in a position to give testimony for any crime, for which protection from retaliation would be necessary.

OK, thank you.

It sounds to me like Zimmerman is tired of keeping his head down for fear of threats, and he's decided to live his life as he's entitled to - as a free man who was acquitted of a crime.
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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri May 13, 2016 5:45 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Custody? I don't know about that. Isn't a protection programme different? The point is that you were asking why he would be in a protection programme, and I explained. There was a lot of outrage from people who thought he got away with murder, and a lot of threats. The fact is that he was acquitted and he's entitled to go about his business without being harassed and threatened.

The only protection programs of which I know are maintained by state or federal justice departments for those who testify on behalf of the government, and thereby put themselves in jeopardy of life or limb in retaliation (or anticipation).  Quite often they are accused themselves and they gain a diversion into the program by offering testimony--otherwise known as copping a plea.

In Zimmerman's case, he is not even subject to the jurisdiction of a court or government.  Nor is he in a position to give testimony for any crime, for which protection from retaliation would be necessary.

OK, thank you.

It sounds to me like Zimmerman is tired of keeping his head down for fear of threats, and he's decided to live his life as he's entitled to - as a free man who was acquitted of a crime.

You call what he's been doing "keeping his head down"? He's been keeping himself in the spotlight with his controversial online activity, controversial business dealings, getting shot ...
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Post by eddie on Fri May 13, 2016 5:50 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Custody? I don't know about that. Isn't a protection programme different? The point is that you were asking why he would be in a protection programme, and I explained. There was a lot of outrage from people who thought he got away with murder, and a lot of threats. The fact is that he was acquitted and he's entitled to go about his business without being harassed and threatened.

The only protection programs of which I know are maintained by state or federal justice departments for those who testify on behalf of the government, and thereby put themselves in jeopardy of life or limb in retaliation (or anticipation).  Quite often they are accused themselves and they gain a diversion into the program by offering testimony--otherwise known as copping a plea.

In Zimmerman's case, he is not even subject to the jurisdiction of a court or government.  Nor is he in a position to give testimony for any crime, for which protection from retaliation would be necessary.

OK, thank you.

It sounds to me like Zimmerman is tired of keeping his head down for fear of threats, and he's decided to live his life as he's entitled to - as a free man who was acquitted of a crime.

Selling the gun that he killed someone with is hardly keeping his head down.
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Post by Original Quill on Fri May 13, 2016 5:58 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

All juries in criminal matters must be unanimous, or it's called a 'hung jury'.

An adjudication of 'not guilty' is not the same as an adjudication of 'legally innocent'.  In certain cases--police officials, for example, where it affects their ability to carry on as such--a person who has been adjudicated 'not guilty' will ask the court to further adjudicate that s/he is lawfully innocent.  'Not guilty' says the evidence is not sufficient to find the person guilty; 'lawfully innocent' says the evidence is indeed sufficient to determine that the person did not commit the crime.

Take it up with Wolfman - he's the one who said the jury wasn't unanimous.

It must be a different system over there - over here, not guilty is not guilty. The jury doesn't explain why. In Scotland I think they have a not proven option.

'Not guilty' is the same as 'not proven'. "Factually innocent' is a further judicial determination. You have the same system.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Fri May 13, 2016 6:12 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

OK, thank you.

It sounds to me like Zimmerman is tired of keeping his head down for fear of threats, and he's decided to live his life as he's entitled to - as a free man who was acquitted of a crime.

You call what he's been doing "keeping his head down"? He's been keeping himself in the spotlight with his controversial online activity, controversial business dealings, getting shot ...

It was hardly his fault that someone tried to shoot him. He has to go out sometimes.
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Post by Guest on Fri May 13, 2016 6:13 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:

You call what he's been doing "keeping his head down"? He's been keeping himself in the spotlight with his controversial online activity, controversial business dealings, getting shot ...

It was hardly his fault that someone tried to shoot him. He has to go out sometimes.


How about being done for domestic abuse twice, once against his wife and once against his girffriend

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Post by Raggamuffin on Fri May 13, 2016 6:14 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Take it up with Wolfman - he's the one who said the jury wasn't unanimous.

It must be a different system over there - over here, not guilty is not guilty. The jury doesn't explain why. In Scotland I think they have a not proven option.

'Not guilty' is the same as 'not proven'.  "Factually innocent' is a further judicial determination.  You have the same system.

"Not guilty" is not the same thing as "not proven" in Scotland, and they have both options. "Not guilty" is just that - not guilty.


Last edited by Raggamuffin on Fri May 13, 2016 6:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Original Quill on Fri May 13, 2016 6:16 pm

sassy wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

It was hardly his fault that someone tried to shoot him. He has to go out sometimes.


How about being done for domestic abuse twice, once against his wife and once against his girffriend

Both of which were bought off, if my guess is correct. The American right has a lot at stake in Zimmerman goes bad.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Fri May 13, 2016 6:16 pm

sassy wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

It was hardly his fault that someone tried to shoot him. He has to go out sometimes.


How about being done for domestic abuse twice, once against his wife and once against his girffriend

He wasn't. Both charges were dropped at the request of his wife and girlfriend.
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Post by Guest on Fri May 13, 2016 6:17 pm

Yea, after he'd intimidated and bribed them.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Fri May 13, 2016 6:18 pm

sassy wrote:Yea, after he'd intimidated and bribed them.

Do you have proof of that?
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Post by Guest on Fri May 13, 2016 6:21 pm

What the police said after his girlfriend dropped the charges:

"We could have kept her safe, we could have given her support, legal advice, information, helped her with a plan. We still could. Even our windows are bulletproof. I'm not surprised this happened but I'm sad, it's tragic,"


In this country it would not have made any difference if she had dropped them, the police could have continued with the prosecution.

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Post by Original Quill on Fri May 13, 2016 6:22 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

'Not guilty' is the same as 'not proven'.  "Factually innocent' is a further judicial determination.  You have the same system.

"Not guilty" is not the same thing as "not proven" in Scotland, and they have both options. Not guilty is just that - not guilty.

Are you trying to say "not guilty" in Scotland is "innocent"? If so, then it would be the equivalent of "factually innocent" over here.

"Not guilty" in this country means what it says: you haven't proven that he is guilty.

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Post by Guest on Fri May 13, 2016 6:25 pm

Just found out, the police were called to a dispute with another girlfriend.  Also had police called for pointing a gun at a driver of a car during a road rage incident.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Fri May 13, 2016 6:32 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

"Not guilty" is not the same thing as "not proven" in Scotland, and they have both options. Not guilty is just that - not guilty.

Are you trying to say "not guilty" in Scotland is "innocent"?  If so, then it would be the equivalent of "factually innocent" over here.  

"Not guilty" in this country means what it says: you haven't proven that he is guilty.

Well "not proven" means that there's not enough evidence to convict but the jury is not totally convinced of the defendant's innocence. You can draw your own conclusion about "not guilty", but clearly it indicates that the jury is convinced the defendant is not guilty, otherwise they'd say "not proven".

In England we only have "not guilty", which could mean either of the two things.
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Post by Original Quill on Fri May 13, 2016 6:51 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Are you trying to say "not guilty" in Scotland is "innocent"?  If so, then it would be the equivalent of "factually innocent" over here.  

"Not guilty" in this country means what it says: you haven't proven that he is guilty.

Well "not proven" means that there's not enough evidence to convict but the jury is not totally convinced of the defendant's innocence. You can draw your own conclusion about "not guilty", but clearly it indicates that the jury is convinced the defendant is not guilty, otherwise they'd say "not proven".

In England we only have "not guilty", which could mean either of the two things.

Perhaps all of your life, watching TV shows and such, you have assumed 'not guilty' means 'innocence', without really thinking about it.  But in fact, "not guilty" means the jury has concluded that the prosecution has not proven that he is guilty...in short, not guilty or not proven.

We live in a legal atmosphere where anyone is not guilty of anything, anywhere, unless some prosecutor has shown specifically that someone is 'guilty'.  It's called, but only logically, innocent until proven guilty.  So saying someone is not guilty is not the same as saying he or she is innocent; just that he resumes his freedom.  Think of it this way: it doesn't mean 'innocence'; but it does mean 'you walk'.

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Post by eddie on Fri May 13, 2016 7:43 pm

I never knew that Quill.
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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri May 13, 2016 11:37 pm

He is stating the obvious eddie...


Guilt must be proven beyond reasonable doubt...


Some found guilty turn out to be innocent... some found not guilty are not innocent at all... just lacking enough evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt...


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Post by Guest on Sat May 14, 2016 9:52 am

Online auction for gun that killed Trayvon Martin reaches $65 million, but there's a catch

Published May 13, 2016
The bidding on an online auction for the gun that former neighborhood watch George Zimmerman used to kill Trayvon Martin in 2012 appears to have been hijacked by fake accounts that are posting enormously high bids.

At one point early Friday, the bidding surpassed $65 million with the leading bidder using the screen name "Racist McShootFace." The site later showed that account had been deleted.

The website for United Gun Group began hosting the auction Thursday after another website, GunBroker.com, took down the auction saying it wanted "no part in the listing on our website or in any of the publicity it is receiving."

Hours later, United Gun Group tweeted that it would post Zimmerman's ad. The new link was posted, along with a statement from Zimmerman. The site calls itself a "social market place for the firearms community."

Bidding on the 9 mm Kel-Tec PF-9 pistol began at $5,000.

Critics called the auction an insensitive move to profit from the slaying.

Zimmerman had told Orlando, Florida, TV station WOFL that the pistol was returned to him by the U.S. Justice Department, which took it after he was acquitted in Martin's 2012 shooting death.

Zimmerman's listing said a portion of the proceeds would go toward fighting what Zimmerman calls violence by the Black Lives Matter movement against law enforcement officers, combating anti-gun rhetoric of Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton and ending the career of state attorney Angela Corey, who led Zimmerman's prosecution.

The listing ended with a Latin phrase that translates as "if you want peace, prepare for war."

Zimmerman, now 32, has said he was defending himself when he killed Martin, an unarmed black 17-year-old, in a gated community near Orlando. Martin, who lived in Miami with his mother, was visiting his father at the time.

Zimmerman, who identifies as Hispanic, was acquitted in Martin's February 2012 shooting death. The case sparked protests and a national debate about race relations. The Justice Department later decided not to prosecute Zimmerman on civil rights charges.

Lucy McBath, the mother of another black teenager shot by a white man during an argument at a Jacksonville convenience store in 2012, said the auction reflected a "deplorable lack of value for human life."

"I am deeply disappointed that the man who killed Trayvon Martin is trying to sell the very gun he used to cut that precious life short to raise money," McBath said in a written statement.

The slaying of her son, 17-year-old Jordan Davis, by Michael Dunn drew parallels at the time to the Zimmerman-Martin case. Dunn told police he had felt threatened by Davis. Unlike Zimmerman, Dunn was convicted of murder.

Since Zimmerman was acquitted, he has been charged with assault based on complaints from two girlfriends. Both women later refused to press charges and Zimmerman wasn't prosecuted. His estranged wife, Shellie Zimmerman, also accused him of smashing her iPad during an argument days after she filed divorce papers. No charges were filed because of lack of evidence. They were divorced in January.

Orlando-based attorney Mark O'Mara has previously represented Zimmerman. A receptionist in O'Mara's office said Thursday that he no longer represents Zimmerman and had no comment.

http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2016/05/13/online-auction-for-gun-that-killed-trayvon-martin-reaches-65-million-but-there/

Oh, I do believe that the public isn't done messing around with 'have gun will travel & act like a wanna-be cop guy'; I do believe that this latest on-line gun sales site will suffer some sabotage as well. The Zimmerman / Martin Case  - Page 2 3852033631

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Post by Guest on Sun May 15, 2016 1:10 pm

In a chat below the listing, one site visitor asked where all the previous bids had gone. Zimmerman responded, "The previous auction and bids were purged due to illegitimate bidding. Yes, this auction is real."
As of late Saturday evening, there were no bids on the listing, which carried a minimum bid of $100,000 and an instant purchase price of $500,000.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/05/14/zimmerman-deletes-reposts-auction-gun-used-kill-martin/84389940/
Well, poor George...had to pull that on line 4 sale ad as well; seems he just can't get anyone to offer him the minimum bid of $100,000 Sad  
2 on line ads in one day~~~just can't get any respect; poor bastard, might have to relocate/change his name/do a days work where he breaks a sweat!

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Post by Raggamuffin on Sun May 15, 2016 1:14 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Well "not proven" means that there's not enough evidence to convict but the jury is not totally convinced of the defendant's innocence. You can draw your own conclusion about "not guilty", but clearly it indicates that the jury is convinced the defendant is not guilty, otherwise they'd say "not proven".

In England we only have "not guilty", which could mean either of the two things.

Perhaps all of your life, watching TV shows and such, you have assumed 'not guilty' means 'innocence', without really thinking about it.  But in fact, "not guilty" means the jury has concluded that the prosecution has not proven that he is guilty...in short, not guilty or not proven.

We live in a legal atmosphere where anyone is not guilty of anything, anywhere, unless some prosecutor has shown specifically that someone is 'guilty'.  It's called, but only logically, innocent until proven guilty.  So saying someone is not guilty is not the same as saying he or she is innocent; just that he resumes his freedom.  Think of it this way: it doesn't mean 'innocence'; but it does mean 'you walk'.

I have assumed nothing. If you can't see that there's a difference between "not proven" and "not guilty", that's your problem. Why do you think that juries in Scotland go for one or the other?

Not guilty means innocent in law. Of course there will be people who think that such a person is guilty, but that's just speculation and they can't prove it.

In the case of Zimmerman, I think there was indeed enough evidence to prove that he was innocent of murder.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sun May 15, 2016 1:35 pm

The mccanns are a few shreds of evidence from being charged and convicted too...

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Post by Original Quill on Sun May 15, 2016 5:20 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:I have assumed nothing. If you can't see that there's a difference between "not proven" and "not guilty", that's your problem. Why do you think that juries in Scotland go for one or the other?

If the two are not synonymous then logically you must accept that someone can be “proven”, yet be found not guilty.  That is exactly what happened in the case of George Zimmerman.  But it was the result of prejudice against the black victim, and not semantic arguments over differences between "not" and "not".

Scotland, like Louisiana in the US, is influenced by the old Roman Code, as noted in this McGill University excerpt:

McGill University Law wrote:Scots law is a unique legal system with an ancient basis in Roman law. Grounded in uncodified civil law dating back to the Corpus Juris Civilis, it also features elements of common law with medieval sources. Thus Scotland has a pluralistic, or 'mixed', legal system, of which South Africa law is comparable, and, to a lesser degree, the partly codified pluralistic systems of Louisiana and Quebec.

Since the Acts of Union, in 1707, it has shared a legislature with the rest of the United Kingdom. Scotland retained a fundamentally different legal system from that of England and Wales, but the Union brought English influence on Scots law. In recent years, Scots law has also been affected by European law under the Treaty of Rome, the requirements of the European Convention on Human Rights (entered into by members of the Council of Europe) and the establishment of the Scottish Parliament which may pass legislation within its areas of legislative competence as detailed by the Scotland Act 1998.

Although there are many substantial differences between Scots law, English law and Northern Ireland law, much of the law is also similar, for example, Commercial law is similar throughout all jurisdictions in the United Kingdom, as is Employment Law. Different terminology is often used for the same concepts, for example, arbiters are called arbitrators in England. However, there are major differences in some areas, an example being house buying, where Scots practice makes the English problem of gazumping a rarity. Another example would be the third verdict available to judges and juries (which consist of 15 members) in criminal cases: ' not proven'.

'Not proven' is the equivalent of 'not guilty'.

Raggamuffin wrote:Not guilty means innocent in law. Of course there will be people who think that such a person is guilty, but that's just speculation and they can't prove it.

“Not proven” is the same as “not guilty” and neither of them mean “factually innocent”.  Even you recognize this, as you phrase it as “innocent in law” presumably to distinguish factual innocence.  When you say "in law" you are stating that the law defines it; when you say "in fact" you are describing real states of affairs (ie, reality).

There is a third verdict in Anglo-American law, too.  We’ve been discussing it: factually innocent.  That would be the case of a denotative finding of fact that a person is innocent.

Raggamuffin wrote:In the case of Zimmerman, I think there was indeed enough evidence to prove that he was innocent of murder.

Alas…unless he were black.  This was a southern jury.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Sun May 15, 2016 5:28 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:I have assumed nothing. If you can't see that there's a difference between "not proven" and "not guilty", that's your problem. Why do you think that juries in Scotland go for one or the other?

If the two are not synonymous then logically you must accept that someone can be “proven”, yet be found not guilty.  That is exactly what happened in the case of George Zimmerman.  But it was the result of prejudice against the black victim, and not semantic arguments over differences between "not" and "not".

Scotland, like Louisiana in the US, is influenced by the old Roman Code, as noted in this McGill University excerpt:

McGill University Law wrote:Scots law is a unique legal system with an ancient basis in Roman law. Grounded in uncodified civil law dating back to the Corpus Juris Civilis, it also features elements of common law with medieval sources. Thus Scotland has a pluralistic, or 'mixed', legal system, of which South Africa law is comparable, and, to a lesser degree, the partly codified pluralistic systems of Louisiana and Quebec.

Since the Acts of Union, in 1707, it has shared a legislature with the rest of the United Kingdom. Scotland retained a fundamentally different legal system from that of England and Wales, but the Union brought English influence on Scots law. In recent years, Scots law has also been affected by European law under the Treaty of Rome, the requirements of the European Convention on Human Rights (entered into by members of the Council of Europe) and the establishment of the Scottish Parliament which may pass legislation within its areas of legislative competence as detailed by the Scotland Act 1998.

Although there are many substantial differences between Scots law, English law and Northern Ireland law, much of the law is also similar, for example, Commercial law is similar throughout all jurisdictions in the United Kingdom, as is Employment Law. Different terminology is often used for the same concepts, for example, arbiters are called arbitrators in England. However, there are major differences in some areas, an example being house buying, where Scots practice makes the English problem of gazumping a rarity. Another example would be the third verdict available to judges and juries (which consist of 15 members) in criminal cases: ' not proven'.

'Not proven' is the equivalent of 'not guilty'.

Raggamuffin wrote:Not guilty means innocent in law. Of course there will be people who think that such a person is guilty, but that's just speculation and they can't prove it.

“Not proven” is the same as “not guilty” and neither of them mean “factually innocent”.  Even you recognize this, as you phrase it as “innocent in law” presumably to distinguish factual innocence.  When you say "in law" you are stating that the law defines it; when you say "in fact" you are describing real states of affairs (ie, reality).

There is a third verdict in Anglo-American law, too.  We’ve been discussing it: factually innocent.  That would be the case of a denotative finding of fact that a person is innocent.

Raggamuffin wrote:In the case of Zimmerman, I think there was indeed enough evidence to prove that he was innocent of murder.

Alas…unless he were black.  This was a southern jury.

The point is that in Scotland at least they're not the same thing, otherwise the juries wouldn't choose one over the other.

It doesn't of course apply in the case of Zimmerman because there was no option to say the case was "not proven". All I can say is that from the evidence I saw with my own eyes, and heard, I would have found him not guilty on the grounds that it was clear that Trayvon Martin was on top of him just prior to the shooting, and that it was self defence. One could say that shooting someone was a drastic thing to do, but that's what your gun laws allow.
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Post by Original Quill on Sun May 15, 2016 5:49 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

If the two are not synonymous then logically you must accept that someone can be “proven”, yet be found not guilty.  That is exactly what happened in the case of George Zimmerman.  But it was the result of prejudice against the black victim, and not semantic arguments over differences between "not" and "not".

Scotland, like Louisiana in the US, is influenced by the old Roman Code, as noted in this McGill University excerpt:



'Not proven' is the equivalent of 'not guilty'.



“Not proven” is the same as “not guilty” and neither of them mean “factually innocent”.  Even you recognize this, as you phrase it as “innocent in law” presumably to distinguish factual innocence.  When you say "in law" you are stating that the law defines it; when you say "in fact" you are describing real states of affairs (ie, reality).

There is a third verdict in Anglo-American law, too.  We’ve been discussing it: factually innocent.  That would be the case of a denotative finding of fact that a person is innocent.



Alas…unless he were black.  This was a southern jury.

The point is that in Scotland at least they're not the same thing, otherwise the juries wouldn't choose one over the other.

But the semantic differences are not what you claim. Both Scot and Anglo-American law provide for factual innocence, they are simply not heard of because once the defendant gets off, why bother? The only reason you would want a judicial edict that you are factually innocent is if there were some collateral concern, such as your license to practice law or medicine...or be a policeman...some situation where merely being accused puts you in jeopardy.

Raggamuffin wrote:It doesn't of course apply in the case of Zimmerman because there was no option to say the case was "not proven". All I can say is that from the evidence I saw with my own eyes, and heard, I would have found him not guilty on the grounds that it was clear that Trayvon Martin was on top of him just prior to the shooting, and that it was self defence. One could say that shooting someone was a drastic thing to do, but that's what your gun laws allow.

If Zimmerman had been stalking a white woman the way he was stalking Trayvon Martin, he would be on death row right now. If it were shown that he had been ordered by police to cease and desist stalking a white woman, and he went ahead anyway, he would be on death row right now. I think the whole world knows: but for the fact that Trayvon Martin was black, George Zimmerman would be on death row right now.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Sun May 15, 2016 6:11 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

The point is that in Scotland at least they're not the same thing, otherwise the juries wouldn't choose one over the other.

But the semantic differences are not what you claim.  Both Scot and Anglo-American law provide for factual innocence, they are simply not heard of because once the defendant gets off, why bother?  The only reason you would want a judicial edict that you are factually innocent is if there were some collateral concern, such as your license to practice law or medicine...or be a policeman...some situation where merely being accused puts you in jeopardy.

Raggamuffin wrote:It doesn't of course apply in the case of Zimmerman because there was no option to say the case was "not proven". All I can say is that from the evidence I saw with my own eyes, and heard, I would have found him not guilty on the grounds that it was clear that Trayvon Martin was on top of him just prior to the shooting, and that it was self defence. One could say that shooting someone was a drastic thing to do, but that's what your gun laws allow.

If Zimmerman had been stalking a white woman the way he was stalking Trayvon Martin, he would be on death row right now.  If it were shown that he had been ordered by police to cease and desist stalking a white woman, and he went ahead anyway, he would be on death row right now.  I think the whole world knows: but for the fact that Trayvon Martin was black, George Zimmerman would be on death row right now.

If Zimmerman had been stalking a white women, I doubt that she would have ended up on top of him banging his head on the ground. There's no evidence that he continued to follow Trayvon. In fact, I think that the evidence shows that he didn't. If you assume that a verdict came about because the dead person was black, you have to give up on the justice system.
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Post by Cass on Sun May 15, 2016 6:21 pm

Back to the OP

Who would do something like this? And call it a piece of American Gun History? The guy is deranged and twisted and not all there. I've seen many thousands of gun owners say that what he is doing is beyond the pale and that is why the 2 sites he posted on took it down.

He needs to go away and stop trying to prolong his 15 minutes of infamy.

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Post by Guest on Sun May 15, 2016 6:46 pm

Cass wrote:Back to the OP

Who would do something like this? And call it a piece of American Gun History? The guy is deranged and twisted and not all there. I've seen many thousands of gun owners say that what he is doing is beyond the pale and that is why the 2 sites he posted on took it down.

He needs to go away and stop trying to prolong his 15 minutes of infamy.

Did you see what he'd put on his 2nd on-line bid post; min bid $100,000...according to his own twitter account, then he had to pull that off - lack of interest or harassment from ugly post --- he didn't say!  Rolling Eyes

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Post by Original Quill on Mon May 16, 2016 4:29 am

Raggamuffin wrote:If Zimmerman had been stalking a white women, I doubt that she would have ended up on top of him banging his head on the ground...

Um...are you claiming that only black men do that?

Raggamuffin wrote:If you assume that a verdict came about because the dead person was black, you have to give up on the justice system.

It is depressing, isn't it? We in America have lived with it for 150-years.

This is the American south, turning the whole concept of justice and right on its head all because they want to be considered racially superior. Equality is not for them.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon May 16, 2016 6:57 am

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:If Zimmerman had been stalking a white women, I doubt that she would have ended up on top of him banging his head on the ground...

Um...are you claiming that only black men do that?

Raggamuffin wrote:If you assume that a verdict came about because the dead person was black, you have to give up on the justice system.

It is depressing, isn't it?  We in America have lived with it for 150-years.  

This is the American south, turning the whole concept of justice and right on its head all because they want to be considered racially superior.  Equality is not for them.

I'm not claiming that black men do anything in particular. Look, if Zimmerman had been stalking a white woman, she would probably not have waited for him, and she would probably not have been physically able to overpower him, get on top of him and bang his head on the ground.
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Post by Miffs2 on Mon May 16, 2016 9:55 am

For a man that is supposed to have broken the law so many times why hasn't he been in court every other week? Regarding the assaults on partners, it must have been "he said she said" surely? If there was evidence the police would have gone ahead and prosecuted - wouldn't they? 
As for Zimmerman he has been found not guilty, but to even think of trying to profit from Martin's death just about sums up the man.
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Post by Guest on Mon May 16, 2016 12:52 pm

Miffs2 wrote:For a man that is supposed to have broken the law so many times why hasn't he been in court every other week? Regarding the assaults on partners, it must have been "he said she said" surely? If there was evidence the police would have gone ahead and prosecuted - wouldn't they? 
As for Zimmerman he has been found not guilty, but to even think of trying to profit from Martin's death just about sums up the man.
**bumped up from several post back**

Since Zimmerman was acquitted, he has been charged with assault based on complaints from two girlfriends. Both women later refused to press charges and Zimmerman wasn't prosecuted. His estranged wife, Shellie Zimmerman, also accused him of smashing her iPad during an argument days after she filed divorce papers. No charges were filed because of lack of evidence. They were divorced in January.

Orlando-based attorney Mark O'Mara has previously represented Zimmerman. A receptionist in O'Mara's office said Thursday that he no longer represents Zimmerman and had no comment.
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2016/05/13/online-auction-for-gun-that-killed-trayvon-martin-reaches-65-million-but-there/

Just can't get any prosecutor in this country to shove a case forward without a witness willing to PRESS CHARGES on an domestic battery offense --- especially when the women refused to testify.  It has been done in RARE CASES but there was a paper trail of charges on file for the abuser---this brainless/spineless moron just changes victims like he changes his undies! Evil or Very Mad

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Post by Guest on Mon May 16, 2016 12:57 pm

We changed that over here a while ago, the police now prosecute, the woman doesn't have to file charges, they do.   The police definitely aren't perfect when it comes to domestic abuse cases, but that was a step in the right direction.   BTW, he was also done for road rage.

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Post by Miffs2 on Mon May 16, 2016 1:16 pm

4EVER2 wrote:
Miffs2 wrote:For a man that is supposed to have broken the law so many times why hasn't he been in court every other week? Regarding the assaults on partners, it must have been "he said she said" surely? If there was evidence the police would have gone ahead and prosecuted - wouldn't they? 
As for Zimmerman he has been found not guilty, but to even think of trying to profit from Martin's death just about sums up the man.
**bumped up from several post back**

Since Zimmerman was acquitted, he has been charged with assault based on complaints from two girlfriends. Both women later refused to press charges and Zimmerman wasn't prosecuted. His estranged wife, Shellie Zimmerman, also accused him of smashing her iPad during an argument days after she filed divorce papers. No charges were filed because of lack of evidence. They were divorced in January.

Orlando-based attorney Mark O'Mara has previously represented Zimmerman. A receptionist in O'Mara's office said Thursday that he no longer represents Zimmerman and had no comment.
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2016/05/13/online-auction-for-gun-that-killed-trayvon-martin-reaches-65-million-but-there/

Just can't get any prosecutor in this country to shove a case forward without a witness willing to PRESS CHARGES on an domestic battery offense --- especially when the women refused to testify.  It has been done in RARE CASES but there was a paper trail of charges on file for the abuser---this brainless/spineless moron just changes victims like he changes his undies! Evil or Very Mad
Really? Here, it's recognised that a victim may not co operate for a myriad of reasons, so, the case proceeds anyway and the victim can be compelled to attend court.
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Post by Guest on Mon May 16, 2016 1:16 pm

sassy wrote:We changed that over here a while ago, the police now prosecute, the woman doesn't have to file charges, they do.   The police definitely aren't perfect when it comes to domestic abuse cases, but that was a step in the right direction.   BTW, he was also done for road rage.

Quite right, Sassy and here in KS...someone WILL be arrested but unless there are extreme circumstances {hospitalization} then the chances for an actual court filing/adjudicated case is still 'IFFY' because it falls right back onto the victim of the abuse and whether or not she/he will sign the charges filed and follow through with the testimony against her abuser. Drugs & Domestic violence police calls as well as traffic violations fill up the 911 call centers here in the Midwest.

This entire 'ZIMMERMAN' regurgitated discussion from some members limited knowledge of our USA's legal definition's/the court proceedings and assumptions that because one "sat and watched the entire footage" {that was allowed/edited for TV} makes the viewer the end all be all for FACTS is very humorous; to say the least. 

Quill's replies have been above patient to explain and keep explaining the unique wording difference of what OUR LEGAL terminology means and what Scotland terminology means The Zimmerman / Martin Case  - Page 2 2396444674   The Zimmerman / Martin Case  - Page 2 2086560741

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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon May 16, 2016 1:39 pm

sassy wrote:We changed that over here a while ago, the police now prosecute, the woman doesn't have to file charges, they do.   The police definitely aren't perfect when it comes to domestic abuse cases, but that was a step in the right direction.   BTW, he was also done for road rage.

You could go forward with a case where the complainant has withdrawn the charges, but unless there are other compelling witnesses it would be difficult to get a conviction. The complainant would have to be called by the prosecution and treated as a hostile witness if they weren't very co-operative.
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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon May 16, 2016 1:41 pm

4EVER2 wrote:
sassy wrote:We changed that over here a while ago, the police now prosecute, the woman doesn't have to file charges, they do.   The police definitely aren't perfect when it comes to domestic abuse cases, but that was a step in the right direction.   BTW, he was also done for road rage.

Quite right, Sassy and here in KS...someone WILL be arrested but unless there are extreme circumstances {hospitalization} then the chances for an actual court filing/adjudicated case is still 'IFFY' because it falls right back onto the victim of the abuse and whether or not she/he will sign the charges filed and follow through with the testimony against her abuser. Drugs & Domestic violence police calls as well as traffic violations fill up the 911 call centers here in the Midwest.

This entire 'ZIMMERMAN' regurgitated discussion from some members limited knowledge of our USA's legal definition's/the court proceedings and assumptions that because one "sat and watched the entire footage" {that was allowed/edited for TV} makes the viewer the end all be all for FACTS is very humorous; to say the least. 

Quill's replies have been above patient to explain and keep explaining the unique wording difference of what OUR LEGAL terminology means and what Scotland terminology means The Zimmerman / Martin Case  - Page 2 2396444674   The Zimmerman / Martin Case  - Page 2 2086560741

I know enough about your system to see a hopeless case when I see it. I doubt you watched any of the trial, so you know fuck all about it anyway. I daresay you thought - ah, black teenager shot by non-black man - Zimmerman must be guilty.
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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon May 16, 2016 1:42 pm

Both Quill and 4ever seem to have missed the point by a mile anyway. As I've said before, on the evidence which was presented in court it was absolutely clear that Zimmerman acted in self defence.

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Post by Guest on Mon May 16, 2016 1:55 pm

Without an abundance of evidence, proving the case was difficult for both sides.
Former Los Angeles County prosecutor Loni Coombs emphasized that jurors did not find Zimmerman innocent; rather, they found him not guilty. There's a difference, she told CNN's Don Lemon.
"They're not saying he's innocent, they're just saying they couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt, and therefore the law gave them no choice but to write 'not guilty,'" Coombs said.



3. The teen who spoke to Martin
She was on the phone with Martin moments before he was shot and was considered a key prosecution witness. But Rachel Jeantel initially resisted coming forward.
"She did not want to get involved in this in no way possible," Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump told reporters Saturday.

During two days of testimony that was at times tense and combative, Jeantel described her conversation with Martin.


When defense attorney Don West challenged her story, suggesting Martin attacked Zimmerman, she responded: "That's retarded."
Jeantel testified that Martin told her he was being chased by a "creepy-a** cracker."

"This was a disaster," criminal defense lawyer Mark Geragos told CNN's Anderson Cooper the day Jeantel testified. "This was the star witness, the star witness. The wheels came off and it was a train wreck. And there's no other -- there's no way to soft-pedal it."

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/14/us/zimmerman-why-this-verdict/



There was nothing clear about it, rain had washed away evidence and both mothers testified that the screaming was their son.   They had to find as they did because the evidence was so limited.   The defence even put together a cartoon film of what they said happened because of the lack of evidence, which the Judge refused to let them enter.   Many people believe that if the prosecution had gone for manslaughter instead of 2nd degree murder, he would have been found guilty. 

Since then, he has shown time and time again he is unstable with deep anger issues.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon May 16, 2016 1:57 pm

Trayvon Martin wasn't being chased. Zimmerman followed him a little way to find out where he'd gone and then he lost him. Trayvon could have been home several times over in the time that Zimmerman was talking on the phone to the police, but he didn't go home ...

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Post by Guest on Mon May 16, 2016 1:58 pm

You happen to think that Rags, you don't know, unfortunately nobody does.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon May 16, 2016 2:00 pm

Jonathan Good clearly testified that it was the man on the bottom who called for help - that was Zimmerman.

Jonathan was a very credible witness. He did not let anyone put words into his mouth, he testified about what he saw and what he heard.


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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon May 16, 2016 2:02 pm

sassy wrote:You happen to think that Rags, you don't know, unfortunately nobody does.

Can you explain why Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman ended up near that T-junction then? We know where Zimmerman parked his vehicle - that's a fact. Are you suggesting that Zimmerman did not go up that path to the T-junction, but that he went a different way and chased Trayvon Martin back to the T-junction?
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Post by Guest on Mon May 16, 2016 2:04 pm

And so was the girl who Martin was talking to a credible witness, and Martin hadn't stalked Zimmerman, Zimmerman had stalked Martin.



George Zimmerman was involved in a road rage incident in Florida today with a man named Matthew Apperson -- and it wasn't the first time, police said.
In September 2014, the Associated Press reported that Apperson was stopped at a light in Lake Mary when a passenger in the car next to him started yelling, unprovoked.
The truck's driver, who Apperson believed to be Zimmerman, then reportedly said to Apperson, "Do you know who I am?"
Apperson pulled over, he said, and the truck followed him, blocking him in. Apperson claimed both men threatened to shoot and kill him, the AP reported.




Frankly, if a murder charge cannot be proved against someone, but they then go on to be violent on many occasions, I think that puts in some doubt that they were innocent.

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Post by Guest on Mon May 16, 2016 2:07 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
sassy wrote:You happen to think that Rags, you don't know, unfortunately nobody does.

Can you explain why Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman ended up near that T-junction then? We know where Zimmerman parked his vehicle - that's a fact. Are you suggesting that Zimmerman did not go up that path to the T-junction, but that he went a different way and chased Trayvon Martin back to the T-junction?


Nobody can explain it.  It could be that Martin took a circuitous route because he knew someone odd was following him and he was trying to avoid them.   Nobody, but nobody knows.   But Zimmerman's life ever since is testimony to the fact he is a very violent individual.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon May 16, 2016 2:09 pm

sassy wrote:And so was the girl who Martin was talking to a credible witness, and Martin hadn't stalked Zimmerman, Zimmerman had stalked Martin.



George Zimmerman was involved in a road rage incident in Florida today with a man named Matthew Apperson -- and it wasn't the first time, police said.
In September 2014, the Associated Press reported that Apperson was stopped at a light in Lake Mary when a passenger in the car next to him started yelling, unprovoked.
The truck's driver, who Apperson believed to be Zimmerman, then reportedly said to Apperson, "Do you know who I am?"
Apperson pulled over, he said, and the truck followed him, blocking him in. Apperson claimed both men threatened to shoot and kill him, the AP reported.




Frankly, if a murder charge cannot be proved against someone, but they then go on to be violent on many occasions, I think that puts in some doubt that they were innocent.

Rachel Jeantel wasn't actually there though was she? Tbh, she wasn't very credible, or even very lucid. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's true. Nobody claims that Martin stalked Zimmerman - we know that Zimmerman did indeed follow Martin to see where he went. The point is that Martin didn't go home, and there's no way that Zimmerman could have caught up with him in the time. We know that because he was on the phone to the police for quite a while, and he wasn't with Martin then.

Has it occurred to you that Zimmerman might have been affected by the trial, by the death threats, and that he might be a bit paranoid now? No, of course it hasn't. In any case, someone allegedly tried to murder him, and I doubt that he invited the person to do so.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon May 16, 2016 2:11 pm

sassy wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Can you explain why Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman ended up near that T-junction then? We know where Zimmerman parked his vehicle - that's a fact. Are you suggesting that Zimmerman did not go up that path to the T-junction, but that he went a different way and chased Trayvon Martin back to the T-junction?


Nobody can explain it.  It could be that Martin took a circuitous route because he knew someone odd was following him and he was trying to avoid them.   Nobody, but nobody knows.   But Zimmerman's life ever since is testimony to the fact he is a very violent individual.

If Martin took another route, he would have gone up Twin Trees and been home very quickly. He wouldn't have gone down the path to the T-junction unless he was looking for Zimmerman.
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Post by 'Wolfie on Mon May 16, 2016 3:07 pm

Idea

Zimmerman was never declared "innocent"...

He was found "not guilty"..

Not the same thing at all.


Zimmerman had criminal convictions/records for violent acts, before and after murdering Trayvon Martin.
Zimmerman should never have been given a gun license !
Let alone, being allowed to carry a handgun on his person.         The Zimmerman / Martin Case  - Page 2 2113235493

Zimmerman followed Martin.
Martin wasn't following Zimmerman.

Zimmerman attacked Martin.
Martin didn't attack Zimmerman.


Those who support Zimmerman's right to attack people simply on the basis of what he looked like,  are basically following the principle, apparently widely held in Florida, that anyone carrying a gun has the 'God given right' to shoot anyone that they don't like, and then can claim "self defence" because you're scared of certain ethnicities !        

 affraid

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