I am on the Kill List. This is what it feels like to be hunted by drones

by Guest Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:09 am

First topic message reminder :

Friends decline my invitations and I have taken to sleeping outside under the trees, to avoid becoming a magnet of death for my family

Malik Jalal

I am in the strange position of knowing that I am on the ‘Kill List’. I know this because I have been told, and I know because I have been targeted for death over and over again. Four times missiles have been fired at me. I am extraordinarily fortunate to be alive.

I don’t want to end up a “Bugsplat” – the ugly word that is used for what remains of a human being after being blown up by a Hellfire missile fired from a Predator drone. More importantly, I don’t want my family to become victims, or even to live with the droning engines overhead, knowing that at any moment they could be vaporized.

I am in England this week because I decided that if Westerners wanted to kill me without bothering to come to speak with me first, perhaps I should come to speak to them instead. I’ll tell my story so that you can judge for yourselves whether I am the kind of person you want to be murdered.

I am from Waziristan, the border area between Pakistan and Afghanistan. I am one of the leaders of the North Waziristan Peace Committee (NWPC), which is a body of local Maliks (or community leaders) that is devoted to trying to keep the peace in our region. We are sanctioned by the Pakistan government, and our main mission is to try to prevent violence between the local Taliban and the authorities.

In January 2010, I lent my vehicle to my nephew, Salimullah, to drive to Deegan for an oil change and to have one of the tires checked. Rumours had surfaced that drones were targeting particular vehicles, and tracking particular phone signals. The sky was clear and there were drones circling overhead.

As Salimullah conversed with the mechanic, a second vehicle pulled up next to mine. There were four men inside, just local chromite miners. A missile destroyed both vehicles, killed all four men, and seriously injured Salimullah, who spent the next 31 days in hospital.

Upon reflection, because the drones target the vehicles of people they want to kill in Waziristan, I was worried that they were aiming for me.

The next attack came on 3 September 2010. That day, I was driving a red Toyota Hilux Surf SUV to a ‘Jirga’, a community meeting of elders. Another red vehicle, almost identical to mine, was some 40 meters behind. When we reached Khader Khel, a missile blew up the other vehicle, killing all four occupants. I sped away, with flames and debris in my rear view mirror.

Initially I thought the vehicle behind was perhaps being used by militants, and I just happened to be nearby. But I learned later the casualties were four local laborers from the Mada Khel tribe, none of whom had any ties to militant groups. Now it seemed more likely that I was the target.

The third drone strike came on 6 October 2010. My friend Salim Khan invited me to dinner. I used my phone to call Salim to announce my arrival, and just before I got there a missile struck, instantly killing three people, including my cousin, Kaleem Ullah, a married man with children, and a mentally handicapped man. Again, none of the casualties were involved in extremism.

Now I knew for certain it was me they were after.

Five months later, on 27 March 2011, an American missile targeted a Jirga, where local Maliks – all friends and associates of mine – were working to resolve a local dispute and bring peace. Some 40 civilians died that day, all innocent, and some of them fellow members of the NWPC. I was early to the scene of this horror.

Like others that day, I said some things I regret. I was angry, and I said we would get our revenge. But, in truth, how would we ever do such a thing? Our true frustration was that we – the elders of our villages – are now powerless to protect our people.

I have been warned that Americans and their allies had me and others from the Peace Committee on their Kill List. I cannot name my sources, as they would find themselves targeted for trying to save my life. But it leaves me in no doubt that I am one of the hunted.

I soon began to park any vehicle far from my destination, to avoid making it a target. My friends began to decline my invitations, afraid that dinner might be interrupted by a missile.

I took to the habit of sleeping under the trees, well above my home, to avoid acting as a magnet of death for my whole family. But one night my youngest son, Hilal (then aged six), followed me out to the mountainside. He said that he, too, feared the droning engines at night. I tried to comfort him. I said that drones wouldn’t target children, but Hilal refused to believe me. He said that missiles had often killed children. It was then that I knew that I could not let them go on living like this.

I know the Americans think me an opponent of their drone wars. They are right; I am. Singling out people to assassinate, and killing nine of our innocent children for each person they target, is a crime of unspeakable proportions. Their policy is as foolish as it is criminal, as it radicalises the very people we are trying to calm down.

I am aware that the Americans and their allies think the Peace Committee is a front, and that we are merely creating a safe space for the Pakistan Taliban. To this I say: you are wrong. You have never been to Waziristan, so how would you know?

The mantra that the West should not negotiate with “terrorists” is naive. There has hardly ever been a time when terrorists have been brought back into the fold of society without negotiation. Remember the IRA; once they tried to blow up your prime minister, and now they are in parliament. It is always better to talk than to kill.

I have travelled half way across the world because I want to resolve this dispute the way you teach: by using the law and the courts, not guns and explosives.

Ask me any question you wish, but judge me fairly – and please stop terrorizing my wife and children. And take me off that Kill List.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/i-am-on-the-us-kill-list-this-is-what-it-feels-like-to-be-hunted-by-drones-a6980141.html

Tell you what, if people were doing that to me and mine, I'd hate them with a passion and I'd be right to do so.

by Guest Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:34 am

veya_victaous wrote:
didge wrote:

Which shows again you do not understand armed conflict, international law and the Geneva convention, of which many of the Middle eastern nations simply ignore and abuse
You are 100% clueless and brainwashed

funny how it doesn't apply to Isreal or the UK in any of your opinons however

Oh but they do apply them, Israel more than any army in the world.
As per usual another one that does not understand the rules of engagement
What you should ask is why you never ask why Hamas never applies them or many Middle Eastern countries.
Its as if you hold them to some lower standard as if they are inferior to allow them to get away with war crimes

by veya_victaous Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:50 am

didge wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
didge wrote:

Which shows again you do not understand armed conflict, international law and the Geneva convention, of which many of the Middle eastern nations simply ignore and abuse
You are 100% clueless and brainwashed

funny how it doesn't apply to Isreal or the UK in any of your opinons however

Oh but they do apply them, Israel more than any army in the world.
As per usual another one that does not understand the rules of engagement
What you should ask is why you never ask why Hamas never applies them or many Middle Eastern countries.
Its as if you hold them to some lower standard as if they are inferior to allow them to get away with war crimes

cause i said they didn't matter in the end and they are Just the West trying to force the boarder lines not the change Rolling Eyes

And You were like "No No there are Rules in War there are Laws and everyone Follows them they have too" but fauklands or Israel and you like No Fuck the rules of war never heard of them Cool

and they are inferrior they lack drones, nukes, many lack a decent airforce.

by Guest Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:55 am

veya_victaous wrote:
didge wrote:

Oh but they do apply them, Israel more than any army in the world.
As per usual another one that does not understand the rules of engagement
What you should ask is why you never ask why Hamas never applies them or many Middle Eastern countries.
Its as if you hold them to some lower standard as if they are inferior to allow them to get away with war crimes

cause i said they didn't matter in the end and they are Just the West trying to force the boarder lines not the change
And You were like "No No there are Rules in War there are Laws and everyone Follows them they have too" but fauklands or Israel and you like No Fuck the rules of war never heard of them

and they are inferrior they lack drones, nukes, many lack a decent airforce.

So again you show you have no conception of the Geneva conventions and the rules of engagement
You instead give a subjective opinion, not backed with any reason
Weapon inferiority does not mean you can commit war crimes, that is just blatantly absurd, as they still kill people
I know plenty about the rules and have often posted many times on here without you able to give a single reply

Offering me up your usual gibberish Islamist support does not cut it

For example, every single rocket attack from Gaza, is an indiscriminate attack against Israeli civilians, and is thus every single attack a war crime.

by Guest Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:05 am

No Palestinians need have died in 2014, if Hamas had not continued to attack Israel preceding the conflict with 100's of rocket attacks. All indiscriminate attacks against civilian areas. Which is a war crime. The left expect Israel to render the safety of their own civilians whether Arab or Jewish Israeli, to that of the people of Gaza. Yet in spite of Israel having a right to defend itself to take out the military capabilities of Hamas. The IDF do more than any other army in the world to warn civilians of an attack. They do this by a variety of methods and by doing so, render the element of surprise redundant, meaning also Hamas armed Militia also can move out from the targeted area. Then on top of this, Hamas has not built any bomb shelters for its civilians, even though it continually attacks Israel. Thus then increasing the possibility of civilian casualties. They place offensive weapon abilities within the civilian areas, including schools and hospitals. Which fundamentally further increases the risk of many civilian casualties. To top this off, when Israel warns of an attack. You then have hamas order people to remain as human shields and play of the Islamic view of martyrdom. So people are then remaining in the area after being warned and when they do so, they place their children and families at massive risk, because if they refuse to leave, they become willing participants with the conflict.

PROTECTION OF THE CIVILIAN POPULATION
Article 51 [ Link ] -- Protection of the civilian population

1. The civilian population and individual civilians shall enjoy general protection against dangers arising from military operations. To give effect to this protection, the following rules, which are additional to other applicable rules of international law, shall be observed in all circumstances.

2. The civilian population as such, as well as individual civilians, shall not be the object of attack. Acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population are prohibited.

3. Civilians shall enjoy the protection afforded by this Section, unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities.

Thus as there are clear military targets, because Hamas men and weaponry is placed deliberately within civilian areas, thus ensuring a higher level of casualties. Which is what hamas wants to happen. They want children and women to die, to play off their deaths, yet they have been instrumental in making sure that many will end up dying. When they have started a conflict. Have no bomb shelters to protect the civilians and demand they become martyrs as human shields. Its then a case of whether israeli lives matter more, which of course they will matter more, as its a nations duty to protect them. But even then they often refrain from executing orders to strike an area. israel is fighting against a group that uses all gazan civilians as human shields

The ICRC has reminded parties to both international and non-international armed conflicts of the prohibition of using human shields.[15]
International human rights law does not prohibit the use of human shields as such, but this practice would constitute, among other things, a violation of the non-derogable right not to be arbitrarily deprived of the right to life (see commentary to Rule 89). The UN Human Rights Committee and regional human rights bodies have indicated that this right involves not only the right not to be killed, but also the duty of States to take measures to protect life.[16] In Demiray v. Turkey, in which the applicant submitted that her husband had been used as a human shield, the European Court of Human Rights stated that “Article 2 may … imply in certain well-defined circumstances a positive obligation on the authorities to take preventive operational measures to protect an individual for which they are responsible”.

Also

Article 19 of the fourth Geneva convention states the following:

“The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded.”[

So as seen hamas violates just about every human right to life and instead demands martyrdom of the people of Gaza.
What hamas knows is israel will protect her people by eliminating an offensive capabilities Hamas have, which can and do take Israeli lives. israel has thus a right to defend itself and take out such offensive facilities. If people remain after being warned, then they make themselves willing human shields, which would render their own rights to life redundant, as they then become willing participants in a conflict.
To top this off the Eygptians brokered a peace deal within the first week of the conflict, which Israel agreed to and Hamas refuse, and why? Becuase not enough vicillians had died for them to garner public opinion. They wanted more babies dead that they ensured would die placing them in harms way. So the claims made against Israel are shambolic. it does far more than any nation to prevent loss of life. It has to fight an enemy that places its men and weapons within the civilian population. I mean the number of civilians counted against hamas fighters is often skewed as well. No other nation is pulled up for the air strikes in conflicts, in fact in Syria, the UN have given them a free pass against any war crime inquiries on air strikes.

by veya_victaous Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:09 am

why are you so obsessed with place that dont matter to you? Suspect

I actually Say both are shit, don't really care at all.. But I would not expect any nation to follow rules of war if my PM had said he was ignoring them in the fauklands...

Basically it is the hypocrsy, and nicko is right about sassys posts on the subject too. Both of you just defend your side to the point where neither of you can post a convincing argument as you overall opinon is seen as tainted.

A test... Wink

So IF every hamas rocket is a WAR CRIME, IS EVERY ISRAELI BULLET AND BULLDOZER AND ILLEGAL WALL a war crime too, they all cause death to civilians?

and that actually shows why not really the same crimes on Hamas side, cause rockets are unguided just fired in a general direction and there are soliders in that general direction so they are legitamate collateral damage 'by our own standards'.
As Israeli weapons are guided if they hit civilians it is because they targeted civilians, hamas rockets cant 'target' anything becuase they are inferriror.

by Guest Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:15 am

veya_victaous wrote:why are you so obsessed with place that dont matter to you?

I actually Say both are shit, don't really care at all.. But I would not expect any nation to follow rules of war if my PM had said he was ignoring them in the fauklands...

Basically it is the hypocrsy, and nicko is right about sassys posts on the subject too. Both of you just defend your side to the point where neither of you can post a convincing argument as you overall opinon is seen as tainted.

A test...
So IF every hamas rocket is a WAR CRIME, IS EVERY ISRAELI BULLET AND BULLDOZER AND ILLEGAL WALL a war crime too, they all cause death to civilians?

and that actually shows why not really the same crimes on Hamas side, cause rockets are unguided just fired in a general direction and there are soliders in that general direction so they are legitamate collateral damage 'by our own standards'.
As Israeli weapons are guided if they hit civilians it is because they targeted civilians, hamas rockets cant 'target' anything becuase they are inferriror.

All the above is your opinion not based on the geneva convention and the rules of engagement
Saying something is shit without having the first clue what you are talking about is sheer blatant ignorance

Now I have provided many details in my previous post.
Say soldiers are in that direction still does not mean they will not hit civilians targets of which they did hit civilian targets and kill civilians.
It again shows you have not the first clue what you are talking about
An indiscriminate attack, knowing it could hit civilian targets , is a deliberate war crime as seen by the Geneva convention rules I just gave you as it has to be a targeted military target. Again it shows you have no idea what you are talking about and people like you are dangerous spreading false information.

See my previous post and if you fail to answer that post your further contribution in this debate is terminated

Here it is again for you

No Palestinians need have died in 2014, if Hamas had not continued to attack Israel preceding the conflict with 100's of rocket attacks. All indiscriminate attacks against civilian areas. Which is a war crime. The left expect Israel to render the safety of their own civilians whether Arab or Jewish Israeli, to that of the people of Gaza. Yet in spite of Israel having a right to defend itself to take out the military capabilities of Hamas. The IDF do more than any other army in the world to warn civilians of an attack. They do this by a variety of methods and by doing so, render the element of surprise redundant, meaning also Hamas armed Militia also can move out from the targeted area. Then on top of this, Hamas has not built any bomb shelters for its civilians, even though it continually attacks Israel. Thus then increasing the possibility of civilian casualties. They place offensive weapon abilities within the civilian areas, including schools and hospitals. Which fundamentally further increases the risk of many civilian casualties. To top this off, when Israel warns of an attack. You then have hamas order people to remain as human shields and play of the Islamic view of martyrdom. So people are then remaining in the area after being warned and when they do so, they place their children and families at massive risk, because if they refuse to leave, they become willing participants with the conflict.

PROTECTION OF THE CIVILIAN POPULATION
Article 51 [ Link ] -- Protection of the civilian population

1. The civilian population and individual civilians shall enjoy general protection against dangers arising from military operations. To give effect to this protection, the following rules, which are additional to other applicable rules of international law, shall be observed in all circumstances.

2. The civilian population as such, as well as individual civilians, shall not be the object of attack. Acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population are prohibited.

3. Civilians shall enjoy the protection afforded by this Section, unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities.

Thus as there are clear military targets, because Hamas men and weaponry is placed deliberately within civilian areas, thus ensuring a higher level of casualties. Which is what hamas wants to happen. They want children and women to die, to play off their deaths, yet they have been instrumental in making sure that many will end up dying. When they have started a conflict. Have no bomb shelters to protect the civilians and demand they become martyrs as human shields. Its then a case of whether israeli lives matter more, which of course they will matter more, as its a nations duty to protect them. But even then they often refrain from executing orders to strike an area. israel is fighting against a group that uses all gazan civilians as human shields

The ICRC has reminded parties to both international and non-international armed conflicts of the prohibition of using human shields.[15]
International human rights law does not prohibit the use of human shields as such, but this practice would constitute, among other things, a violation of the non-derogable right not to be arbitrarily deprived of the right to life (see commentary to Rule 89). The UN Human Rights Committee and regional human rights bodies have indicated that this right involves not only the right not to be killed, but also the duty of States to take measures to protect life.[16] In Demiray v. Turkey, in which the applicant submitted that her husband had been used as a human shield, the European Court of Human Rights stated that “Article 2 may … imply in certain well-defined circumstances a positive obligation on the authorities to take preventive operational measures to protect an individual for which they are responsible”.

Also

Article 19 of the fourth Geneva convention states the following:

“The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded.”[

So as seen hamas violates just about every human right to life and instead demands martyrdom of the people of Gaza.
What hamas knows is israel will protect her people by eliminating an offensive capabilities Hamas have, which can and do take Israeli lives. israel has thus a right to defend itself and take out such offensive facilities. If people remain after being warned, then they make themselves willing human shields, which would render their own rights to life redundant, as they then become willing participants in a conflict.
To top this off the Eygptians brokered a peace deal within the first week of the conflict, which Israel agreed to and Hamas refuse, and why? Becuase not enough vicillians had died for them to garner public opinion. They wanted more babies dead that they ensured would die placing them in harms way. So the claims made against Israel are shambolic. it does far more than any nation to prevent loss of life. It has to fight an enemy that places its men and weapons within the civilian population. I mean the number of civilians counted against hamas fighters is often skewed as well. No other nation is pulled up for the air strikes in conflicts, in fact in Syria, the UN have given them a free pass against any war crime inquiries on air strikes.

by veya_victaous Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:22 am

I am saying Both nations are Shit.... as Shit as your posts about Israel.
I am on the Kill List. This is what it feels like to be hunted by drones - Page 2 ILyHbuJ

I am on the Kill List. This is what it feels like to be hunted by drones - Page 2 ILyHbuJ

And by that bit you bolded ALL ISREALI Citizens are legit targets as they have mandatory service.
so one group has stuff maybe placed near them and the other Actively trains to kill people and fight in combat .. pretty obvious WHICH HAS taken a direct part

by Guest Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:26 am

3 posts without answering any the information I provided or any of the facts

Your participation in a debate with me is now terminated on this

As I say people like yourself Veya a pathetic insignificant leftist regressive teacher has not got the first clue what you are talking about and I just proved it
Where you even try to invent new Geneva convention rules and the rules of engagement
I shall await others who have even a basic understanding which will be more than yourself

Also I just noticed also Veya thinks all Israeli civilians are legit targets including children, again failing to understand the Geneva convention and now endorsing all terrorist attacks against its civilians
You cannot make it up how vile the left are

by Guest Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:41 am

veya_victaous wrote:

And by that bit you bolded ALL ISREALI Citizens are legit targets as they have mandatory service.
so one group has stuff maybe placed near them and the other Actively trains to kill people and fight in combat .. pretty obvious WHICH HAS taken a direct part

If ever anyone wanted to see sheer ignorance in all its glory, there it is above.
Not only has he just made Israeli children legitimate targets, but now anyone who has done service is now to him of non-civilian status when not in the army but in civilian life. You cannot make it up how vile and twisted the left are where now he has made terrorism justified breaking every single Geneva convention rule.
This is why I do not have time for idiots and he claims to be a teacher.
The Australian schooling system must be in the shit is all i can say

Thank goodness I am off to work, another post of his ignorance is enough for anyone to give up education

by Guest Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:23 am

didge wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
And by that bit you bolded ALL ISREALI Citizens are legit targets as they have mandatory service.
so one group has stuff maybe placed near them and the other Actively trains to kill people and fight in combat .. pretty obvious WHICH HAS taken a direct part
If ever anyone wanted to see sheer ignorance in all its glory, there it is above.
Not only has he just made Israeli children legitimate targets, but now anyone who has done service is now to him of non-civilian status when not in the army but in civilian life. You cannot make it up how vile and twisted the left are where now he has made terrorism justified breaking every single Geneva convention rule.
This is why I do not have time for idiots and he claims to be a teacher.
The Australian schooling system must be in the shit is all i can say

Thank goodness I am off to work, another post of his ignorance is enough for anyone to give up education

WHAT AN UTTER LOAD OF

I am on the Kill List. This is what it feels like to be hunted by drones - Page 2 Crap-emoticon

And yet quite telling and so standard for your thought process!
Cherry Picking the method that you'll use the 'Geneva Convention' when it servers 'YOUR' grandiose sense of 'SELF'...is just so mind blowing. You're either generalizing any topic or ranting about Israel's rights to kill their border neighbors 'at will' or posting as if you've got a mouse in your pocket and saying 'WE'...like you have group of like minded moron's that will support your skewed ideology!

But the best of you rejoinders is when you start ranting in the: pejorative...using..."look at how 'they' respond to my every thoughtless point"; Who the hell do you think you're preaching too?

But yet again here's another topic shredded and totally derailed by your insistent ranting about Israel as if what you stated in reply to my concern about 'DRONE' killing innocent collateral damage {human body count} was just to obscure for you to wrap your wee little mind around because I'm one of 'YOU PEOPLE'!!!
Well, your spewing off topic and continual regurgitating more BILGE has given me a good morning LMAO moment. TY

by Guest Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:26 am

4EVER2 wrote:

WHAT AN UTTER LOAD OF
didge wrote: Really, where you cannot even counter my facts
And yet quite telling and so standard for your thought process!
didge wrote: Yet more drivel
Cherry Picking the method that you'll use the 'Geneva Convention' when it servers 'YOUR' grandiose sense of 'SELF'...is just so mind blowing. You're either generalizing any topic or ranting about Israel's rights to kill their border neighbors 'at will' or posting as if you've got a mouse in your pocket and saying 'WE'...like you have group of like minded moron's that will support your skewed ideology!
didge wrote: Claims I am cherry picking and yet cannot point out a single thing wrong

But the best of you rejoinders is when you start ranting in the: pejorative...using..."look at how 'they' respond to my every thoughtless point"; Who the hell do you think you're preaching too?
didge wrote: Another pointless reply

But yet again here's another topic shredded and totally derailed by your insistent ranting about Israel as if what you stated in reply to my concern about 'DRONE' killing innocent collateral damage {human body count} was just to obscure for you to wrap your wee little mind around because I'm one of 'YOU PEOPLE'!!!
didge wrote: Another pointless reply

Well, your spewing off topic and continual regurgitating more BILGE has given me a good morning LMAO moment. TY

didge wrote: Another pointless reply

Points below answered by 4everhalfwit?

Zero

No Palestinians need have died in 2014, if Hamas had not continued to attack Israel preceding the conflict with 100's of rocket attacks. All indiscriminate attacks against civilian areas. Which is a war crime. The left expect Israel to render the safety of their own civilians whether Arab or Jewish Israeli, to that of the people of Gaza. Yet in spite of Israel having a right to defend itself to take out the military capabilities of Hamas. The IDF do more than any other army in the world to warn civilians of an attack. They do this by a variety of methods and by doing so, render the element of surprise redundant, meaning also Hamas armed Militia also can move out from the targeted area. Then on top of this, Hamas has not built any bomb shelters for its civilians, even though it continually attacks Israel. Thus then increasing the possibility of civilian casualties. They place offensive weapon abilities within the civilian areas, including schools and hospitals. Which fundamentally further increases the risk of many civilian casualties. To top this off, when Israel warns of an attack. You then have hamas order people to remain as human shields and play of the Islamic view of martyrdom. So people are then remaining in the area after being warned and when they do so, they place their children and families at massive risk, because if they refuse to leave, they become willing participants with the conflict.

PROTECTION OF THE CIVILIAN POPULATION
Article 51 [ Link ] -- Protection of the civilian population

1. The civilian population and individual civilians shall enjoy general protection against dangers arising from military operations. To give effect to this protection, the following rules, which are additional to other applicable rules of international law, shall be observed in all circumstances.

2. The civilian population as such, as well as individual civilians, shall not be the object of attack. Acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population are prohibited.

3. Civilians shall enjoy the protection afforded by this Section, unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities.

Thus as there are clear military targets, because Hamas men and weaponry is placed deliberately within civilian areas, thus ensuring a higher level of casualties. Which is what hamas wants to happen. They want children and women to die, to play off their deaths, yet they have been instrumental in making sure that many will end up dying. When they have started a conflict. Have no bomb shelters to protect the civilians and demand they become martyrs as human shields. Its then a case of whether israeli lives matter more, which of course they will matter more, as its a nations duty to protect them. But even then they often refrain from executing orders to strike an area. israel is fighting against a group that uses all gazan civilians as human shields

The ICRC has reminded parties to both international and non-international armed conflicts of the prohibition of using human shields.[15]
International human rights law does not prohibit the use of human shields as such, but this practice would constitute, among other things, a violation of the non-derogable right not to be arbitrarily deprived of the right to life (see commentary to Rule 89). The UN Human Rights Committee and regional human rights bodies have indicated that this right involves not only the right not to be killed, but also the duty of States to take measures to protect life.[16] In Demiray v. Turkey, in which the applicant submitted that her husband had been used as a human shield, the European Court of Human Rights stated that “Article 2 may … imply in certain well-defined circumstances a positive obligation on the authorities to take preventive operational measures to protect an individual for which they are responsible”.

Also

Article 19 of the fourth Geneva convention states the following:

“The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded.”[

So as seen hamas violates just about every human right to life and instead demands martyrdom of the people of Gaza.
What hamas knows is israel will protect her people by eliminating an offensive capabilities Hamas have, which can and do take Israeli lives. israel has thus a right to defend itself and take out such offensive facilities. If people remain after being warned, then they make themselves willing human shields, which would render their own rights to life redundant, as they then become willing participants in a conflict.
To top this off the Eygptians brokered a peace deal within the first week of the conflict, which Israel agreed to and Hamas refuse, and why? Becuase not enough vicillians had died for them to garner public opinion. They wanted more babies dead that they ensured would die placing them in harms way. So the claims made against Israel are shambolic. it does far more than any nation to prevent loss of life. It has to fight an enemy that places its men and weapons within the civilian population. I mean the number of civilians counted against hamas fighters is often skewed as well. No other nation is pulled up for the air strikes in conflicts, in fact in Syria, the UN have given them a free pass against any war crime inquiries on air strikes.

by Irn Bru Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:43 am

Israel doesn't apply the Geneva Convention on Human Rights to the West Bank and Gaza or the Palestinian people so why are you quoting it when it isn't relevant?

by Guest Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:45 am

Irn Bru wrote:Israel doesn't apply the Geneva Convention on Human Rights to the West Bank and Gaza or the Palestinian people so why are you quoting it when it isn't relevant?

Because it applies them on the rules of engagement of which I am talking about

Are you that stupid Irn?

I see you cannot answer me, because you are that stupid it seems lol

by Irn Bru Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:53 am

didge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:Israel doesn't apply the Geneva Convention on Human Rights to the West Bank and Gaza or the Palestinian people so why are you quoting it when it isn't relevant?

Because it applies them on the rules of engagement of which I am talking about

Are you that stupid Irn?

I see you cannot answer me, because you are that stupid it seems lol

Yes Didge, you told me about a year ago to look up the IDF rules of engagement but you couldn't show me where to find them because you didn't have them.

Your Geneva Convention posts are nonsense since Israel don't recognise them for Palestinians.

Shame on them.

by Guest Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:54 am

Irn Bru wrote:
didge wrote:

Because it applies them on the rules of engagement of which I am talking about

Are you that stupid Irn?

I see you cannot answer me, because you are that stupid it seems lol

Yes Didge, you told me about a year ago to look up the IDF rules of engagement but you couldn't show me where to find them because you didn't have them.

Your Geneva Convention posts are nonsense since Israel don't recognise them for Palestinians.

Shame on them.

Wow another post talking about me and nothing on my many points

Israel as seen applies then in the rules of engagement

I suggest you look up the IDF and its policies on conflict, to see why again you are wrong

Thanks for proving my point yet again

by Irn Bru Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:57 am

didge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
didge wrote:

Because it applies them on the rules of engagement of which I am talking about

Are you that stupid Irn?

I see you cannot answer me, because you are that stupid it seems lol

Yes Didge, you told me about a year ago to look up the IDF rules of engagement but you couldn't show me where to find them because you didn't have them.

Your Geneva Convention posts are nonsense since Israel don't recognise them for Palestinians.

Shame on them.

Wow another post talking about me and nothing on my many points

Israel as seen applies then in the rules of engagement

I suggest you look up the IDF and its policies on conflict, to see why again you are wrong

Thanks for proving my point yet again

All your replies are talking about me Laughing

Got a link to the full IDF rules of engagement - you have read them haven't you so you must know where they are?

by Guest Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:59 am

Irn Bru wrote:
didge wrote:

Wow another post talking about me and nothing on my many points

Israel as seen applies then in the rules of engagement

I suggest you look up the IDF and its policies on conflict, to see why again you are wrong

Thanks for proving my point yet again

All your replies are talking about me

Got a link to the full IDF rules of engagement - you have read them haven't you so you must know where they are?

There is only one part Israel does not agree on the geneva convention that is on settlements, the rest they apply

I only replied to state what you are after you falsely accused me and you have stated you support hamas a known terrorist organisation, that denies rights to women, homosexuals and religious minorities

by Guest Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:11 am

Israel says the Geneva Convention does not apply to the whole of the West Bank.

by Irn Bru Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:18 am

didge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
didge wrote:

Wow another post talking about me and nothing on my many points

Israel as seen applies then in the rules of engagement

I suggest you look up the IDF and its policies on conflict, to see why again you are wrong

Thanks for proving my point yet again

All your replies are talking about me

Got a link to the full IDF rules of engagement - you have read them haven't you so you must know where they are?

There is only one part Israel does not agree on the geneva convention that is on settlements, the rest they apply

I only replied to state what you are after you falsely accused me and you have stated you support hamas a known terrorist organisation, that denies rights to women, homosexuals and religious minorities

They don't.

I support politiacal Hamas in persuing a settlement based on a two state solution - something Israel has said they will not get. Political Hamas are not designated as a terrorist organisation by the British government

by veya_victaous Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:21 am

didge wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:

And by that bit you bolded ALL ISREALI Citizens are legit targets as they have mandatory service.
so one group has stuff maybe placed near them and the other Actively trains to kill people and fight in combat .. pretty obvious WHICH HAS taken a direct part

If ever anyone wanted to see sheer ignorance in all its glory, there it is above.
Not only has he just made Israeli children legitimate targets, but now anyone who has done service is now to him of non-civilian status when not in the army but in civilian life. You cannot make it up how vile and twisted the left are where now he has made terrorism justified breaking every single Geneva convention rule.
This is why I do not have time for idiots and he claims to be a teacher.
The Australian schooling system must be in the shit is all i can say

Thank goodness I am off to work, another post of his ignorance is enough for anyone to give up education

And You said Palestine Children were legit targets Rolling Eyes

You cannot have your cake and eat it too, IF they are then so Are Israeli Kids, Cause ONLY ONE of those is Guaranteed to prolong the violence and that is the Israeli. The Palestinian may never pick up a weapon but every Israeli will pick up a weapon and thus is a combatant. And 100% yes, once a solider always a legit target for your whole life, You don’t get to kill people and then decide when the tables turn you don’t want to play by those riles anymore

Again
you are a Hypocrite there is NO debate

No one is even having the Same dumb fuck discussion as you Because Most people are smart enough to NOT Need a villain in every story. ALL your points a just Hypocrite Cowardly Rubbish Because YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THAT BOTH ARE WRONG.

that NO we don't all automatically search for things to blame on Muslims, No we are not all predisposed to Fascist ideology No we are no all Zionists that Think Israel is entitled to behave like Nazis
You do not know how to debate you just post crap you copy and paste and don't even understand IF you cannot accept that MOST people do not function on the Same Primitive base level you do then stop posting, as you add nothing.

by Guest Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:37 am

veya_victaous wrote:
didge wrote:

If ever anyone wanted to see sheer ignorance in all its glory, there it is above.
Not only has he just made Israeli children legitimate targets, but now anyone who has done service is now to him of non-civilian status when not in the army but in civilian life. You cannot make it up how vile and twisted the left are where now he has made terrorism justified breaking every single Geneva convention rule.
This is why I do not have time for idiots and he claims to be a teacher.
The Australian schooling system must be in the shit is all i can say

Thank goodness I am off to work, another post of his ignorance is enough for anyone to give up education

And You said Palestine Children were legit targets
Lie number one

You cannot have your cake and eat it too,
Well this cake is not anything I have said, showing again you do not understand the rules of engagement
IF they are then so Are Israeli Kids,
Wrong, again showing you have no idea what you are talking about

Cause ONLY ONE of those is Guaranteed to prolong the violence and that is the Israeli. The Palestinian may never pick up a weapon but every Israeli will pick up a weapon and thus is a combatant. And 100% yes, once a solider always a legit target for your whole life, You don’t get to kill people and then decide when the tables turn you don’t want to play by those riles anymore
Wrong again, that is gibberish

No one is even having the Same dumb fuck discussion as you Because Most people are smart enough to NOT Need a villain in every story. ALL your points a just Hypocrite Cowardly Rubbish Because YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THAT BOTH ARE WRONG.
No I am just laughing at the nonsense you have just written, none of which complies with the Geneva convention

that NO we don't all automatically search for things to blame on Muslims, No we are not all predisposed to Fascist ideology No we are no all Zionists that Think Israel is entitled to behave like Nazis
More Gibberish
You do not know how to debate you just post crap you copy and paste and don't even understand IF you cannot accept that MOST people do not function on the Same Primitive base level you do then stop posting, as you add nothing.

So first of all you make an assumption that Israel targets children, when it does not or understand what a legitimate military target is.
You fail to understand people where warned who fail to move and become willing participants.
You fail to understand errors occur.
You fail to understand hamas using human shields
You fail to understand Hamas launches inaccurate missiles that they do not warn Israel about when firing, thus rendering them war crimes
Israel warns of military targets its going to strike by numerous methods, thus surrendering also surprise to Hamas fighters, which no other army in the world does with air strikes.
Hamas has built no bomb shelters but hide their fighters in tunnels, thus leaving civilians to the mercy of air strikes, where they have hidden within the civilian population
They fire them from within civilian areas, both war crimes.
I can go on the list is endless of the nonsense you keep spouting and of things I have never said
You are not only ignorant but have backed the use of war crimes making the most idiotic understanding of civilian status as well

by Guest Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:40 am

Irn Bru wrote:
didge wrote:

There is only one part Israel does not agree on the geneva convention that is on settlements, the rest they apply

I only replied to state what you are after you falsely accused me and you have stated you support hamas a known terrorist organisation, that denies rights to women, homosexuals and religious minorities

They don't.

I support politiacal Hamas in persuing a settlement based on a two state solution - something Israel has said they will not get. Political Hamas are not designated as a terrorist organisation by the British government

Political hamas does not recognise the State of israel, so that is nonsense and its charter calls for its destruction and Political Hamas, denies the many rights already listed and this is the group you support
They are designated a terrorist organisation by the EU of which we are a part of

by veya_victaous Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:52 am

didge wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
didge wrote:

If ever anyone wanted to see sheer ignorance in all its glory, there it is above.
Not only has he just made Israeli children legitimate targets, but now anyone who has done service is now to him of non-civilian status when not in the army but in civilian life. You cannot make it up how vile and twisted the left are where now he has made terrorism justified breaking every single Geneva convention rule.
This is why I do not have time for idiots and he claims to be a teacher.
The Australian schooling system must be in the shit is all i can say

Thank goodness I am off to work, another post of his ignorance is enough for anyone to give up education

And You said Palestine Children were legit targets
Lie number one

You cannot have your cake and eat it too,
Well this cake is not anything I have said, showing again you do not understand the rules of engagement
IF they are then so Are Israeli Kids,
Wrong, again showing you have no idea what you are talking about

Cause ONLY ONE of those is Guaranteed to prolong the violence and that is the Israeli. The Palestinian may never pick up a weapon but every Israeli will pick up a weapon and thus is a combatant. And 100% yes, once a solider always a legit target for your whole life, You don’t get to kill people and then decide when the tables turn you don’t want to play by those riles anymore
Wrong again, that is gibberish

No one is even having the Same dumb fuck discussion as you Because Most people are smart enough to NOT Need a villain in every story. ALL your points a just Hypocrite Cowardly Rubbish Because YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THAT BOTH ARE WRONG.
No I am just laughing at the nonsense you have just written, none of which complies with the Geneva convention

that NO we don't all automatically search for things to blame on Muslims, No we are not all predisposed to Fascist ideology No we are no all Zionists that Think Israel is entitled to behave like Nazis
More Gibberish
You do not know how to debate you just post crap you copy and paste and don't even understand IF you cannot accept that MOST people do not function on the Same Primitive base level you do then stop posting, as you add nothing.

So first of all you make an assumption that Israel targets children, when it does not or understand what a legitimate military target is.
You fail to understand people where warned who fail to move and become willing participants.
You fail to understand errors occur.
You fail to understand hamas using human shields
You fail to understand Hamas launches inaccurate missiles that they do not warn Israel about when firing, thus rendering them war crimes
Israel warns of military targets its going to strike by numerous methods, thus surrendering also surprise to Hamas fighters, which no other army in the world does with air strikes.
Hamas has built no bomb shelters but hide their fighters in tunnels, thus leaving civilians to the mercy of air strikes, where they have hidden within the civilian population
They fire them from within civilian areas, both war crimes.
I can go on the list is endless of the nonsense you keep spouting and of things I have never said
You are not only ignorant but have backed the use of war crimes making the most idiotic understanding of civilian status as well

LOLOLO

So failing to leave your home makes you a combatant? but Joining and army and training for combat doesn't ?????

I am on the Kill List. This is what it feels like to be hunted by drones - Page 2 3489511464

I am on the Kill List. This is what it feels like to be hunted by drones - Page 2 3489511464

Keep posting you just keep digging

Cause Didge YES if you defend the deaths IOf Plaestiana kids YOU ARE SAYING THEY ARE LEGIT TARGETS
you cannot have your cake and eat it too, WHAT YOU PROPOSE has CONSEQUENCE
So No lie what so ever, it is exactly as i said YOU ARE TOO DUMB and do not understand what you have copy and pasted that YES it is a decalratiobn that ALL palestiaan Kids are legit targets.

by veya_victaous Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:29 am

by Guest Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:38 am

veya_victaous wrote:
didge wrote:

So first of all you make an assumption that Israel targets children, when it does not or understand what a legitimate military target is.
You fail to understand people where warned who fail to move and become willing participants.
You fail to understand errors occur.
You fail to understand hamas using human shields
You fail to understand Hamas launches inaccurate missiles that they do not warn Israel about when firing, thus rendering them war crimes
Israel warns of military targets its going to strike by numerous methods, thus surrendering also surprise to Hamas fighters, which no other army in the world does with air strikes.
Hamas has built no bomb shelters but hide their fighters in tunnels, thus leaving civilians to the mercy of air strikes, where they have hidden within the civilian population
They fire them from within civilian areas, both war crimes.
I can go on the list is endless of the nonsense you keep spouting and of things I have never said
You are not only ignorant but have backed the use of war crimes making the most idiotic understanding of civilian status as well

LOLOLO

So failing to leave your home makes you a combatant? but Joining and army and training for combat doesn't ?????

Keep posting you just keep digging

Cause Didge YES if you defend the deaths IOf Plaestiana kids YOU ARE SAYING THEY ARE LEGIT TARGETS
you cannot have your cake and eat it too, WHAT YOU PROPOSE has CONSEQUENCE
So No lie what so ever, it is exactly as i said YOU ARE TOO DUMB and do not understand what you have copy and pasted that YES it is a decalratiobn that ALL palestiaan Kids are legit targets.

PMSL

I said makes a them willing participants, does not mean they are combatants

Seriously this is why you are as thick as shit and do not understand the Rules of combat or the Geneva convention
If people are willing human shields as already explained they forfeit their right to a human life as they are willing participants

Never laughed at so much idiocy in all my life

This is what i actually had already said on here

by Guest Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:40 am

Already posted

The ICRC has reminded parties to both international and non-international armed conflicts of the prohibition of using human shields.[15]
International human rights law does not prohibit the use of human shields as such, but this practice would constitute, among other things, a violation of the non-derogable right not to be arbitrarily deprived of the right to life (see commentary to Rule 89). The UN Human Rights Committee and regional human rights bodies have indicated that this right involves not only the right not to be killed, but also the duty of States to take measures to protect life.[16] In Demiray v. Turkey, in which the applicant submitted that her husband had been used as a human shield, the European Court of Human Rights stated that “Article 2 may … imply in certain well-defined circumstances a positive obligation on the authorities to take preventive operational measures to protect an individual for which they are responsible”.

If they forfeit this right to life by becoming willing participants as human shields, as they still have the necessity of the military target to take out, or they surrender and sacrifice their own civilians to attack

There for everyone to See Veya is a the ultimate in stupdity

by Irn Bru Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:09 am

didge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
didge wrote:

There is only one part Israel does not agree on the geneva convention that is on settlements, the rest they apply

I only replied to state what you are after you falsely accused me and you have stated you support hamas a known terrorist organisation, that denies rights to women, homosexuals and religious minorities

They don't.

I support politiacal Hamas in persuing a settlement based on a two state solution - something Israel has said they will not get. Political Hamas are not designated as a terrorist organisation by the British government

Political hamas does not recognise the State of israel, so that is nonsense and its charter calls for its destruction and Political Hamas, denies the many rights already listed and this is the group you support
They are designated a terrorist organisation by the EU of which we are a part of

Israel does not support a two state solution and they do nor support human rights for Palestinians - just Israeli's in the illegal West Bank settlemenrs. You know this is true.

Political Hamas have agreed to a two state solution based on the 1967 borders you also know this is true.

Palitical Hamas have said that the old Hamas charter is no longer relevant unlike the Israeli charter which is relevant and lays claim to EretzIsrael which includes the West Bank and Gaza and you also know this is true - you've seen it haven't you?

by veya_victaous Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:20 am

didge wrote:Already posted

The ICRC has reminded parties to both international and non-international armed conflicts of the prohibition of using human shields.[15]
International human rights law does not prohibit the use of human shields as such, but this practice would constitute, among other things, a violation of the non-derogable right not to be arbitrarily deprived of the right to life (see commentary to Rule 89). The UN Human Rights Committee and regional human rights bodies have indicated that this right involves not only the right not to be killed, but also the duty of States to take measures to protect life.[16] In Demiray v. Turkey, in which the applicant submitted that her husband had been used as a human shield, the European Court of Human Rights stated that “Article 2 may … imply in certain well-defined circumstances a positive obligation on the authorities to take preventive operational measures to protect an individual for which they are responsible”.

If they forfeit this right to life by becoming willing participants as human shields, as they still have the necessity of the military target to take out, or they surrender and sacrifice their own civilians to attack

There for everyone to See Veya is a the ultimate in stupdity

you really are dumb

So human shield forfeits there right to life More so than an Active combatant or soldier...
By that definition Every Israeli is a legit target too you cant have it both ways as the Palestinian Civilian is obviously Less of a military target than every single Israeli citizen that plays a part in the military as due to compulsory service that is all of them

As I said keep digging, how anyone could be a stupid as to suggest a child that is being used a human shied is more legitimate a military target than a solider in uniform.
even suggesting that makes you EVIL.
No moral person could even suggest that killing of a human shield is legitimate yet the stabbing of a solider is not. the WILLING participant is the Israeli as they are wearing uniforms they are actively training to kill people they are participating in real military training. YET you are so how suggesting that having a near terrorist organisation use you as a human shield (under duress or not) is even comparable
Evil or Very Mad

by veya_victaous Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:25 am

And Just so you know this is not a debate didge.

there can be no debate when you posses no morals.

by Guest Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:19 am

Irn Bru wrote:
didge wrote:

Political hamas does not recognise the State of israel, so that is nonsense and its charter calls for its destruction and Political Hamas, denies the many rights already listed and this is the group you support
They are designated a terrorist organisation by the EU of which we are a part of

Israel does not support a two state solution and they do nor support human rights for Palestinians - just Israeli's in the illegal West Bank settlemenrs. You know this is true.

Political Hamas have agreed to a two state solution based on the 1967 borders you also know this is true.

Palitical Hamas have said that the old Hamas charter is no longer relevant unlike the Israeli charter which is relevant and lays claim to EretzIsrael which includes the West Bank and Gaza and you also know this is true - you've seen it haven't you?

Making up lies again Irn does not cut it when you are known to support Hamas and have done so numerous times on here

Israel once withdrew its settlements from, Gaza only for it to be continually attacked, showing again your views just do not cut it.

You can keep inventing lies, but nobody is buying it and even worse the fact you go off settlements is a complete sham.

Again the Palestinians have rejected the formation to have a Palestinian stated four times.

Hamas never agreed to resolution 242

They have never agreed to the Oslo accords.

They have a charter that calls for the destruction of Israel, which they have never rescinded.

You are all out of nonsense you keep spouting

Even I do not agree with the settlements,. but the very fact 4 times in history and where the Palestinians have used poor lies as they have before to attack Jews in regards to the Mosque as they did in 1929, shows again you are the worst for of appeaser going to terrorism

Again the EU and the US classifies Hamas as a terrorist organisation and you support Political Hamas, who throw homosexuals off rooftops

by Irn Bru Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:12 am

didge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
didge wrote:

Political hamas does not recognise the State of israel, so that is nonsense and its charter calls for its destruction and Political Hamas, denies the many rights already listed and this is the group you support
They are designated a terrorist organisation by the EU of which we are a part of

Israel does not support a two state solution and they do nor support human rights for Palestinians - just Israeli's in the illegal West Bank settlemenrs. You know this is true.

Political Hamas have agreed to a two state solution based on the 1967 borders you also know this is true.

Palitical Hamas have said that the old Hamas charter is no longer relevant unlike the Israeli charter which is relevant and lays claim to EretzIsrael which includes the West Bank and Gaza and you also know this is true - you've seen it haven't you?

Making up lies again Irn does not cut it when you are known to support Hamas and have done so numerous times on here

Israel once withdrew its settlements from, Gaza only for it to be continually attacked, showing again your views just do not cut it.

You can keep inventing lies, but nobody is buying it and even worse the fact you go off settlements is a complete sham.

Again the Palestinians have rejected the formation to have a Palestinian stated four times.

Hamas never agreed to resolution 242

They have never agreed to the Oslo accords.

They have a charter that calls for the destruction of Israel, which they have never rescinded.

You are all out of nonsense you keep spouting

Even I do not agree with the settlements,. but the very fact 4 times in history and where the Palestinians have used poor lies as they have before to attack Jews in regards to the Mosque as they did in 1929, shows again you are the worst for of appeaser going to terrorism

Again the EU and the US classifies Hamas as a terrorist organisation and you support Political Hamas, who throw homosexuals off rooftops

There are no lies from me - just you. Are you denying that I have showed you links supporting what I said?

The only peace offering that the Israeli's made was on the basis that they could run their own affairs within localgovernment but not as a Palestinian state as defined by the UN charter.

The only genuine peace negotiations that almost happened to bring peace were dumped when the Israeli prime minister who negotiated them were thrown out office before the negotiqations could be completed. FACT

And the prime minister who signed the Oslo Accords was murdered by a Jewish extremists gang.

And don't talk to me about appeasing terrorists when you didn't have much to say about Jewish terrorists who bombed, blew up, shot hanged and murdered over 300 Bitish citizens and soldiers who wre part of an international peace force in 1947 many of whom had fought to liberate people from the very death camps where millions died.

Get back in your box.

by Guest Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:55 am

Irn Bru wrote:
didge wrote:

Making up lies again Irn does not cut it when you are known to support Hamas and have done so numerous times on here

Israel once withdrew its settlements from, Gaza only for it to be continually attacked, showing again your views just do not cut it.

You can keep inventing lies, but nobody is buying it and even worse the fact you go off settlements is a complete sham.

Again the Palestinians have rejected the formation to have a Palestinian stated four times.

Hamas never agreed to resolution 242

They have never agreed to the Oslo accords.

They have a charter that calls for the destruction of Israel, which they have never rescinded.

You are all out of nonsense you keep spouting

Even I do not agree with the settlements,. but the very fact 4 times in history and where the Palestinians have used poor lies as they have before to attack Jews in regards to the Mosque as they did in 1929, shows again you are the worst for of appeaser going to terrorism

Again the EU and the US classifies Hamas as a terrorist organisation and you support Political Hamas, who throw homosexuals off rooftops

There are no lies from me - just you. Are you denying that I have showed you links supporting what I said?

The only peace offering that the Israeli's made was on the basis that they could run their own affairs within localgovernment but not as a Palestinian state as defined by the UN charter.

The only genuine peace negotiations that almost happened to bring peace were dumped when the Israeli prime minister who negotiated them were thrown out office before the negotiqations could be completed. FACT

And the prime minister who signed the Oslo Accords was murdered by a Jewish extremists gang.

And don't talk to me about appeasing terrorists when you didn't have much to say about Jewish terrorists who bombed, blew up, shot hanged and murdered over 300 Bitish citizens and soldiers who wre part of an international peace force in 1947 many of whom had fought to liberate people from the very death camps where millions died.

Get back in your box.

Lies again, Israel has offered peace on numerous occasions which the Palestinians have refused the last time it was offered the 98% of the West bank and East Jerusalem and land swaps, all of which you blatantly ignore. You continue to ignore countless history and this is not the first time this was offered. In fact it is only because of Israel that a Palestinian area exists for the first time in history where previously it was occupied by the Egyptians and Jordanians. Both of which were never claimed to be occupied by the Palestinians and the PLO charter of 1964 proves this. You just invent pseudo history in your continued support of terrorists. You then admit to the Oslo accords, thus going back on what you originally said but as seen Abbas was offered and refused a deal. You also ignore that in 1937 and 1947 the Palestinians refused partition plans, which would have had peace and a Palestinian state. they choose war instead, which is why the conflict continues to this day, all of which you ignore.

Again the point is on Hamas though of which you suppport

Again the Palestinians have rejected the formation to have a Palestinian stated four times.

Hamas never agreed to resolution 242

They have never agreed to the Oslo accords.

They have a charter that calls for the destruction of Israel, which they have never rescinded.

You are all out of nonsense you keep spouting

Even I do not agree with the settlements,. but the very fact 4 times in history and where the Palestinians have used poor lies as they have before to attack Jews in regards to the Mosque as they did in 1929, shows again you are the worst for of appeaser going to terrorism

Again the EU and the US classifies Hamas as a terrorist organisation and you support Political Hamas, who throw homosexuals off rooftops

The funniest is running scared trying to tell me what to do by saying get back in a box.

Buck buck buck

lol

Here are the facts

I am on the Kill List. This is what it feels like to be hunted by drones - Page 2 709333de032845226502e294b31d24ef

I am on the Kill List. This is what it feels like to be hunted by drones - Page 2 709333de032845226502e294b31d24ef

Palestinian spokesmen from PLO leader Mahmoud Abbas on down have expressed their frustration with the Oslo peace process, charging that it failed and is dead, thanks to alleged Israeli intransigence, and that therefore they have no choice but to go to the United Nations to seek full membership and therefore statehood.

It should be noted at the outset that for the Palestinians to unilaterally declare statehood, or even to take the issue to the United Nations, would be a grave violation of the PLO's signed agreements with Israel, which explicitly barred such unilateral actions and appeals to outside parties. All of these agreements were also witnessed by outside parties including the United States, Russia, Norway, the EU, etc. If any of these countries now go along with material violations of agreements that they witnessed, that would raise serious questions about the worth of such agreements and the worth of such witnessing.

As for Palestinian frustration, they may indeed be frustrated with more than 18 years of on-again, off-again negotiations, but the question is with whom should they be frustrated – Israel, or their own leaders? For the fact is, just as the legendary Israeli diplomat Abba Eban once said about relations between the Arabs and Israel, "The Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity," and there have been many statehood opportunities that Palestinian leaders have wilfully missed.

Why do the Palestinians refuse a negotiated peace? Because a negotiated peace means the end of the conflict, or at least promising to end the conflict and accept Israel. But the Palestinian leadership wants a state so that they can continue the conflict from a stronger position. In particular, they want a state and they want to keep pressing in every way for the "right of return" to Israel.

Israel would not agree to that in negotiations, which is why Palestinians want a state without negotiations, and without having to make any compromises.
In accord with this, at least three times the Palestinians have refused statehood when it was offered to them, most recently just a few years ago. Here are the details:
1. In 2008, after extensive talks, then Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert met with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and presented a comprehensive peace plan. Olmert's plan would have annexed the major Israeli settlements to Israel and in return given equivalent Israeli territory to the Palestinians, and would have divided Jerusalem.
Numerous settlements including Ofra, Elon Moreh, Beit El and Kiryat Arba would have been evacuated, and Hebron would have been abandoned. Tens of thousands of settlers would have been uprooted. Olmert even says preliminary agreement had been reached with Abbas on refugees and the Palestinian claim to a "right of return."
Olmert recounted much of this in an interview with Greg Sheridan in the Australian newspaper:

From the end of 2006 until the end of 2008 I think I met with Abu Mazen more often than any Israeli leader has ever met any Arab leader. I met him more than 35 times. They were intense, serious negotiations.
On the 16th of September, 2008, I presented him (Abbas) with a comprehensive plan. It was based on the following principles.
One, there would be a territorial solution to the conflict on the basis of the 1967 borders with minor modifications on both sides. Israel will claim part of the West Bank where there have been demographic changes over the last 40 years...
And four, there were security issues. [Olmert says he showed Abbas a map, which embodied all these plans. Abbas wanted to take the map away. Olmert agreed, so long as they both signed the map. It was, from Olmert's point of view, a final offer, not a basis for future negotiation. But Abbas could not commit. Instead, he said he would come with experts the next day.]
He (Abbas) promised me the next day his adviser would come. But the next day Saeb Erekat rang my adviser and said we forgot we are going to Amman today, let's make it next week. I never saw him again. (Nov. 28, 2009)

And this is not just a self-serving claim by Olmert – Abbas, in an interview with Jackson Diehl of the Washington Post, confirmed the outlines of the Olmert offer and that he turned it down:

In our meeting Wednesday, Abbas acknowledged that Olmert had shown him a map proposing a Palestinian state on 97 percent of the West Bank -- though he complained that the Israeli leader refused to give him a copy of the plan. He confirmed that Olmert "accepted the principle" of the "right of return" of Palestinian refugees -- something no previous Israeli prime minister had done -- and offered to resettle thousands in Israel. In all, Olmert's peace offer was more generous to the Palestinians than either that of Bush or Bill Clinton; it's almost impossible to imagine Obama, or any Israeli government, going further.
Abbas turned it down. "The gaps were wide," he said. (May 29, 2009)

Ha'aretz published Olmert's map, showing a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza with a free passage route to connect them. The map, which also showed the Israeli territory that would have been swapped with the Palestinians in return for annexing some Israeli settlements to Israel, is reproduced below:

I am on the Kill List. This is what it feels like to be hunted by drones - Page 2 Olmertmap_r

2. In the summer of 2000 US President Bill Clinton hosted intense peace talks at Camp David between Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat and Israeli leader Ehud Barak, culminating in a comprehensive peace plan known as the Clinton Parameters, which was similar to the later Olmert Plan, though not quite as extensive.
Despite the vast concessions the plan required of Israel, Prime Minister Barak accepted President Clinton's proposal, while Arafat refused, returned home, and launched a new terror campaign against Israeli civilians (the Second Intifada).
Despite the violence, Prime Minister Barak continued to negotiate to the end of his term, culminating in an Israeli proposal at Taba which extended the Clinton proposal. Barak offered the Palestinians all of Gaza and most of the West Bank, no Israeli control over the border with Jordan or the adjacent Jordan Valley, a small Israeli annexation around three settlement blocs balanced by an equivalent area of Israeli territory that would have been ceded to the Palestinians. As chief US negotiator Ambassador Dennis Ross put it in a FoxNews interview:

... the Palestinians would have in the West Bank an area that was contiguous. Those who say there were cantons, completely untrue. It was contiguous... And to connect Gaza with the West Bank, there would have been an elevated highway, an elevated railroad, to ensure that there would be not just safe passage for the Palestinians, but free passage. (Fox News, April 21, 2002)

According to Ambassador Ross, Palestinian negotiators working for Arafat wanted him to accept the Clinton Parameters, but he refused. In response to Brit Hume’s question as to why Arafat turned these deals down, Ross said:

Because fundamentally I do not believe he can end the conflict. We had one critical clause in this agreement, and that clause was, this is the end of the conflict.

Arafat's whole life has been governed by struggle and a cause. Everything he has done as leader of the Palestinians is to always leave his options open, never close a door. He was being asked here, you've got to close the door. For him to end the conflict is to end himself.

Here's the Taba map proposed by Israel, which was once again turned down by Arafat:

I am on the Kill List. This is what it feels like to be hunted by drones - Page 2 Taba-map-2000

3. UN Resolution 181, the Partition Resolution, passed in November 1947, called for the creation of a Jewish state and an Arab state in the land which at that point was controlled by the British-run Palestine Mandate. All the Arab countries opposed the resolution, voted against it, and promised to go to war to prevent its implementation. Representing the Palestinians, the Arab Higher Committee also opposed the plan and threatened war, while the Jewish Agency, representing the Jewish inhabitants of the Palestine Mandate, supported the plan.
The Arabs and the Palestinians were true to their word and did launch a war against the Jews of Palestine, violating both Resolution 181 and the UN Charter. Much to the surprise of the Arab side, the Jews were able to survive the initial onslaughts and eventually win the war.
The fundamental fact remains that had the Arabs and the Palestinians accepted the Partition Resolution and not violated the UN Charter by attacking Israel, there would be a 63-year-old Palestinian state today next to Israel, and there would not have been a single Palestinian refugee.
Just as today, it seems that even in 1948 the Arab side was more concerned with opposing and attacking the Jewish state than with creating a Palestinian state.
Besides the above statehood opportunities, there were other notable opportunities that were missed too, such as the 1978 Camp David Accords between Israel and Egypt, which provided for Palestinian autonomy in the territories of the West Bank and Gaza. Egyptian President Anwar Sadat begged the PLO and Yasir Arafat to accept what he had negotiated with Israel, and to engage in talks with Israel. President Carter also called on moderate Palestinians to come forward and join the Cairo conference. Unfortunately Arafat refused and did everything he could to undermine Sadat and the Camp David Accords, with PLO gunmen even murdering West Bank Palestinians who supported Sadat's approach.

While the Palestinian people have much to be frustrated about, the object of their frustration should be not Israel, but their own leaders, who have thrown away opportunity after opportunity to establish the Palestinian state they claim to desire above all else.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=83&x_article=2116

by Guest Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:38 am

Translated from here:

__________________________

A guide to survival in the Middle East

To my brethren and friends, the Jews who live in Israel and abroad.

It saddens me to let you know that those attacks from which we have been suffering today, yesterday, a week, a month, a year, a decade and a century ago, are indeed the same war that our neighbors have been waging against us for over 100 years. Sometimes they fight with a great fire, with tanks and ships and airplanes, and sometimes they fight with a simmering fire, “Terror” they call it, with explosions, stabbings and shootings. This war is called “Jihad” in Arabic, and it is directed at Jews wherever they may be.

It saddens me to remind you that this war began a long, long time before Israel’s declaration of independence in 1948. The pogroms of 1920, 1921, 1929 and 1936-39 were not caused by the creation of Israel, nor by the “occupation of 1948”, as our enemies refer to it. This war is most certainly NOT waging because of the “1967 occupation”. The Hebron Jews who got massacred were not a part of the Zionist movement. The Organization for liberation of Palestine (the Fatah) was established in 1959, and the Palestinian Liberation Organization (the PLO), in 1964, years before the “1967 occupation”.

It saddens me to remind you that the calls we heard during our war of independence were “Itbah al-Yahud” - “Slaughter the Jews” - Not the Israelis or the Zionists. This is because their problem is with Jews (and for that matter, Christians as well) refusing to live under the mercies of Islam as “Ahel D’ima” or “Proteges”, as obliged by their religion. To this day, in various Arab countries around the world children sing: “Palestine Baladna wa’al-Yahud Kalabna” - “Palestine is our land and the Jews are our dogs”. The dog, according to Muslim tradition, is an impure animal, and according to Sharia law if a Muslim is praying and a dog, a pig, a donkey, a woman, a Jew or a Christian passes before him, his prayer becomes impure and he has to start over.

It saddens me to tell you that a common chant with Israel’s enemies is: “Khybar, Khybar ya yahud, Jish Muhammad siaud” - Khybar is an oasis in the Arab peninsula in which Jews used to live until Muhammad slaughtered them in 626 AD. The chant is to remind people of what happened and says “Khybar, Khybar oh Jews, Muhammad’s army will return” - to do it again. According to the Koran, Surah 5:82, Jews are “Muslims’ fiercest enemies”, and in verse 60 it states that Allah’s curse and wrath are on the Jews and he turned them into monkeys and pigs. So, who gave them the right to own a country? Since when do they have the right to sovereignty?

The Language of Power

Despite what you may think, the peace with Egypt came about only after Sadat realized that despite the Arab’s efforts to eliminate Israel in 1948’s was of independence, in 1956’s Sinai war, in 1967’s six day war, in 1970’s war of attrition and in 1973’s Yom Kippur war which started as a complete surprise, Israel not only survived but managed to move the war into enemy grounds. Realizing that Israel is unbeatable, Sadat begrudgingly turned to peace, even if the peace will be temporary and based on the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah from 628 AD, in which Muhammad gave the Mecca infidels temporary peace for 10 years, only to retract it two years later.

The Oslo accords with Arafat did not stem from his belief in peace either. They were a con, a trojan horse which Arafat himself called “Treaty of Hudaybiyyah”. The entire purpose of the Oslo accords was to create a Palestinian entity with an army and weapons, one which will eliminate Israel when the time is ripe. He said it day in and day out, and our policy makers said that it was for “internal consumption only”, and when suicide bombers exploded in our streets, they called them “victims of peace”. Since when does peace require victims? And how long before the guns we gave them are turned on us?

It saddens me to tell you that all of Israel’s efforts to appease Hamas in Gaza were for naught, and that Hamas has turned from a terrorist organization to a terrorist state. Deadly rockets, attack tunnels, suicide bombers - those are all viewed as legitimate instruments by Gaza’s Jihad government. They do not give a single hoot about the lives, health, property or prosperity of the people, the women and children in the strip. The residents of Gaza are pawns in the hands of Hamas, the Jihadists and the Salafis, who make their current lives hell while “allowing” them to be sent to heaven.

It saddens me to tell the gentle peace lovers in Israel and around the world that the concrete and iron we were forced to provide Gaza’s Jihadists with to rebuild the destruction, were used to build tunnels of death - death to Israelis and death to the sons of Gaza. Instead of rebuilding their hospitals, schools and infrastructure, the Jihad people have built the infrastructure for death, suffering and disaster. You made the mistake, again, of basing your policy on hopes, dreams and delusions instead of on data and facts. And even the commentators (myself included) share the blame: We all said with one voice that when Hamas will assume responsibility over food, electricity and the livelihood of Gazan population, they will moderate, and become realistic and pragmatic. Well, we were wrong: The Hamas movement, despite its evolution from an opposition organization to a governing body, has left Jihad against Israel at the top of its priority list, and did not moderate its absolute negation of “The Zionist Entity” one bit.

The Blinding Peace Vision

It saddens me to spoil the “Two peoples, two states” party. What happens today in Gaza will, with absolute accuracy, happen in the Palestinian state you are trying to create in Judea and Samaria. Hamas will win the elections to the legislative assembly in the same way they did in January of 2006, and they will win the presidential elections. If not, they will simply enact a violent revolution just like they did in Gaza in June of 2007. And when that happens, what will you say? “Oops… We didn’t realize… we didn’t think…?” So, now you know and you don’t have to think. This should be your working assumption. And if today Gaza’s Hamas digs tunnels in the sand, the tunnels in Judea and Samaria will be dug in rock, making them that much harder to find and destroy.

And for those with a particularly short memory: In July of 2014 Hamas managed to close the Ben Gurion airport for a day with rockets they sent from Gaza. If and when they control Judea and Samaria, they will be able to close the airport with even a slingshot - they will have direct view of it from Bet Arieh hills. If you don’t believe me, just take a short drive to the hills just east of the airport, those that are in the “occupied territories” (occupied from whom, exactly?). Because of the wind patterns, most planes approach the runways from the east, passing exactly above those hills. Will Hamasland allow Israeli airplanes to approach and land from above its territory? And what price will Israel have to pay after a plane was taken down with a machine gun or an RPG? Shall we give them Jerusalem to keep them quiet?

Speaking of Jerusalem, what will you do when Hamasland serves you with an ultimatum: Jerusalem or war? Temple mount, or we close Ben Gurion Airport? And when the world shows their support of those demands, appeasing extremist Islam with Israeli payments, what will you say? And when the sharpshooters are again dropping pedestrians in Jerusalem over the walls of the Old City, just like their Jordanian brethren did in 1967, where will you hide? Behind concrete walls? Or a safety fence? Will you transfer Israel’s capital to Tel Aviv?

It saddens me to inform you that the worst thing to ever happen for hope and peace is the various peace movements, those who call upon Israel to let a terror state rise in Judea and Samaria and to give east Jerusalem up. In the Middle East, those who ask for peace, those who sing about their passion for peace and those who offer their land and their country in exchange for a piece of paper which says “peace”, are perceived as those who were defeated in war and are now begging for their lives. The peace movements have painted Israel as soft, weak and defeatist - an image which, in the middle east, does NOT get you peace. In this extremist, violent corner of the world in which Israel is trying to survive, being perceived as weak will earn you a swift kick in the you know what, and get you thrown out harshly on a good day, or beheaded on a normal one. In the middle east, “Peace” means that your enemies leave you alone because you are too strong, too aggressive and too dangerous to mess with. In the middle east, peace is only for the invincible.

Those who refuse to accept these facts, those who are not ready for blood, sweat and tears, those who are anxious for “peace now”, should not be in the middle east. It is a place for the strong, the brave, the determined, who firmly believe in their way. For all others, they should probably find a different place to live. Somewhere quiet and prosperous, like Paris, Brussels, Madrid, Boston or San Bernadino.

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