Trevor Phillips – what do Muslims really think?

First topic message reminder :

Trevor Phillips’ report (it’s behind a paywall but there’s some commentary here) on a new survey of British Muslim opinion may prompt the response ‘I told you so’ from Islam’s fiercest critics and Islamists alike.  It suggests that Islam is qualitatively different from other religions, and Muslims correspondingly different from other immigrant/minority communities.  Phillips cautions that wishful thinking has led people to assume that Muslims are – or soon will be – indistinguishable, a few details aside, from the non-Muslim majority.  The reality, he argues, is that this isn’t going to happen.

The data collected by the respected research firm ICM shows what the polling experts call “a chasm” opening between Muslims and non-Muslims on such fundamentals as marriage, relations between men and women, schooling, freedom of expression and even the validity of violence in defence of religion. And the chasm isn’t going to disappear any time soon; indeed, the gaps between Muslim and non-Muslim youngsters are nearly as large as those between their elders.

Sometimes it is suggested that young Muslims have even more conservative views than their elders, so it’s something that the gap is at least narrowing just a little. Phillips’ article only deals with a few of the flashpoint issues in detail – Wednesday Channel 4 programme will presumably reveal more.  Here are the findings on homosexuality:

More than half of the sample reported that they believe that homosexuality should be illegal. Even more opposed gay marriage, and nearly half thought that it was unacceptable for a gay person to teach their children.
…
Homosexuality should be legal in Britain — 18% agree (strongly agree 8%, tend to agree 10%) and 52% disagree (strongly disagree 38%, tend to disagree 14%)
It should come as no surprise that Muslim liberals are in despair. They knew all of this long ago.

This is much clearer, I think, than other polls which have asked rather vaguer questions about attitudes towards homosexuality.   (It is perfectly possible to believe homosexuality a sin while supporting full civil rights.)  I wish the results were different.  Of course not all non-Muslims have liberal views on this issue either.  A 2014 poll found that 16% of Britons want homosexuality to be illegal.
After reading Phillips’ article I tried to find out how religious non-Muslims viewed this issue.  I thought the results would mitigate his findings, but in fact according to one poll Hindus and Sikhs are more inclined to support gay marriage than the UK population as a whole.
There has been much discussion of the relationship between Muslims and ‘Britishness’.  This poll goes beyond asking whether Muslims feel British and like living in the country.  Generally they do.  However – and this is the kind of point liberal commentators would like to wish away – what some Muslims like about Britain is the way it enables them to live somewhat separate lives. 23% would like to see Sharia law introduced in some areas of Britain instead of British law. So we aren’t, presumably, just talking Sharia councils.
Here’s a section on mixing.

But while Muslims clearly like Britain, many are not as enthusiastic about their non-Muslim compatriots. Levels of intermarriage are extremely low compared with other minorities: according to the ONS, fewer than one in 10 Muslim Britons of Pakistani or Bangladeshi heritage are in inter-ethnic relationships. (Whereas more than four in 10 African-Caribbeans are in a mixed relationship.) Even fewer relationships between Muslims and non-Muslims produce children — just 3% of Pakistani or Bangladeshi-heritage children live in mixed households. According to ICM, more than half mix with non-Muslims daily, probably at work or college — but 30% never translate that into a friendship that would take them into a non-Muslim’s house more than once a year. One in five never enter a non-Muslim home.

Some of these observations could perhaps be softened if placed within a wider context. I would guess levels of intermarriage within the ultra-orthodox Jewish community are also very low.   And non-Muslim experiences of socialising with Muslims will presumably resemble those of Muslims – I shared a house with a Muslim at university but can only, offhand, think of one instance since then when I have visited a Muslim’s home.
Yet Phillips is also right to insist that:

the separation here isn’t just down to white bigotry.

I’m personally aware of non-Muslim children who have not been allowed to play with Muslim classmates outside school.
As Phillips points out, liberal Muslims will be particularly dismayed, though not surprised, at the report’s findings.  The children of liberal Muslims will be more likely to be targeted by puritanical classmates than their white friends:

“The boys used to act as thought police. You know, they would go around and actually hit the girls on their heads if their heads weren’t covered. I even had one boy, one nine-year-old boy, say to me, ‘Why haven’t you covered your head? It is only slags who don’t cover their head.’ ”

One problem for liberal Muslims is that the non-Muslims who should be their allies are often unaware of the problem.

Not long ago, I had an exchange with a leading newspaper columnist who airily assured me that he had many Muslim friends, and that they were integrating just as his Irish Catholic forebears did a couple of generations ago. He could not accept that his own circle of acquaintances — probably doctors, lawyers, journalists — might not be typical of the British Muslim experience.

I was thinking about this issue when I watched Stewart Lee’s recent programme on Islamophobia. (A fresh take on his earlier routine on the same topic.) This began:

Like most reasonable people I hate all Muslims except the ones I’ve met who seem fine.

My response to this was the same as Trevor Phillips’ – and I’m still not sure who (from Lee’s perspective) the joke was on.  Do watch the whole thing and let me know what you think.
I’d be interested to see what, if anything, 5Pillars makes of Trevor Phillips’ report.  Despite coming at the issue from a quite different position – he supports a more ‘muscular’ approach to integration – in some ways he could be said to echo their views.

Even when confronted with the growing pile of evidence to the contrary, and the angst of the liberal minority of British Muslims, clever, important people still cling to the patronising certainty that British Muslims will, over time, come to see that “our” ways are better.

As already noted, it seems that young Muslims are only a little less conservative than their parents.  However, by its nature, one important subset of the Muslim community won’t have been polled – ex-Muslims.  This group will of course be likely to hold very liberal views.

http://hurryupharry.org/2016/04/10/trevor-phillips-what-do-Muslims-really-think/

Muslims here with such incompatible views should be encouraged to leave... they won't change as they are following what their 'religion' is telling them...

Trevor Philips has been described as being so far to the Right on Multiculturism that he should join the BNP.

He's forever wring articles and making short documentories blasting multiculturism so thi is nothing new.

I'd like to the ICM tabs on this to see wht questions were asked.

I believe on homosexuality you may well get similiar results from the Christian and Jewish communities. I fact in Israel itself the majority of the population are against it.

ICM carried out a simililar poll in 2006 and found that 40% though Sharia Law should be allowed in the UK. That's almost halfed and it's now onlt 23% so that's progress.

And if you look at the dire impressions of homosexuality in midle east countries it shows that at 50% are against it in this country then there is surely evidence that many have integrated.

And 96% disagreed with any form of violence and loved being British and British institutions, so what the bloody problem!

and....

I STILL remember the parties, all around nottinghams "Muslim areas" following 9/11

and as for your and Irns last posts...they aint totally daft you know...they know what to say in these polls...indeed I'd recon they are instructed at the mosque

 

Paranoia Personified


if they asked me if I believed in violence I'd say at the moment yes, Dodgy Dave and her cohorts should be put against a wall and shot.

Lord Foul wrote:and....

I STILL remember the parties, all around nottinghams "Muslim areas" following 9/11

paranoia...really????
NO...THAT was reality

So you were in Nottingham, saw it for yourself and they told you why they were celebrating?

sassy wrote:So you were in Nottingham, saw it for yourself and they told you why they were celebrating?

yep....yep and yep

and then it was suggested that I remove myself sharpish like.....

We don't even know if this survey was carried out just within Muslims in predominantly Ethnic communities or if it went out wider to where Muslims live outwith these areas. That question was put to the author of the article who put her commentary on Harry's Place (a known Islamaphobic hotspot) and she didn't know.

There are countless other surveys that have been carried out that show the Multiculturism has made progress within Western Society.

Here's one...

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/16/passive-tolerance-beacon-hope-diverse-communities

Irn Bru wrote:Trevor Philips has been described as being so far to the Right on Multiculturism that he should join the BNP.

He's forever wring articles and making short documentories blasting multiculturism so thi is nothing new.

I'd like to the ICM tabs on this to see wht questions were asked.

I believe on homosexuality you may well get similiar results from the Christian and Jewish communities. I fact in Israel itself the majority of the population are against it.

ICM carried out a simililar poll in 2006 and found that 40% though Sharia Law should be allowed in the UK. That's almost halfed and it's now onlt 23% so that's progress.

And if you look at the dire impressions of homosexuality in midle east countries it shows that at 50% are against it in this country then there is surely evidence that many have integrated.

Quelle surprise

Nothing about the information gathered or the points raised but to again attack the the person who compiled the information

You then make other outlandish claims

Yes there is some within other minorities that do not accept homosexuality

No idea how Israel has anything to do with the UK as a comparison where you go from saying Jews and is fundamentally racial in nature, as 20% of israeli's are Arabs. Maybe you should make a real comparison based on other Muslim countries where it is criminally punishable, where even in some the punishment is death.

Though just to show you are lying

http://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-70-of-israelis-support-recognition-for-gays/

Not sure about the Uk, but here is the US with Jews

83% of American Jews Support 'Gay Marriage'
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/177877

Again this is about a group that are separate from  the majority of Muslims, a society within a society and you offer the worst deflections going, where there have been plenty of Polls on the British population, which is still a majority Christian as a belief, showing again your view to be poor to say the least

They just can't handle the truth. .. so employ the regular tactics of the lefties... lies and spin!!!

I bet none of you have read the actual survey.

1081 Muslims surveyed. Barley statistically representative.

Half of those asked were semi-skilled or unemployed.

60% asked were not born in Britain - although about 90% say they belong to Britain.

Just about half of the above thought homosexuality should be illegal.

Sometimes it matters who you ask. The same survey using the same demographic expect for being Muslim, would probably find the same trend.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:I bet none of you have read the actual survey.

1081 Muslims surveyed. Barley statistically representative.

Half of those asked were semi-skilled or unemployed.

60% asked were not born in Britain - although about 90% say they belong to Britain.

Just about half of the above thought homosexuality should be illegal.

Sometimes it matters who you ask.  The same survey using the same demographic expect for being Muslim, would probably find the same trend.

So polls are of zero importance then to you and where they show issues, you want to bury your head in the sand with them.

Quelle surprise

They offer up opportunities and it does shows problems, which you can then try to work on. Problems I might add that people already view and see everyday in life

Your claims to find the same trend are unsubstantiated and shows further more you instead of wanting to recognise issues, instead, wish to ignore them

Huffington Post wrote:A spokesperson for Channel 4 said the programme, airing on Wednesday night, would be “very clear” about how the survey was conducted.

“Around 50 per cent of British Muslims live in the areas we surveyed. ICM, which is one of the UK’s leading polling organisations, with a long track record of producing credible and accurate surveys, is satisfied that the results allow us to draw strong conclusions about the views of UK Muslims.

“There is no evidence to suggest that Muslims have radically different attitudes to the issues surveyed depending on whether they live in areas of more than, or less, than 20 per cent Muslim population.”
Anthony Wells, Research Director at the rival pollster YouGov, called ICM’s survey “the best coverage and the best polling we’ve had of British Muslims for years” and stressed that all research must be restricted by budget.

“Any way you do a poll of British Muslims, you end up making some compromises,” he added.

Surveying areas with a high Muslim population would give different answers compared to areas with an average population of around 4.5%, Wells said: “If you make the assumption that people who live in an area that is very strongly Muslim, like Tower Hamlets or Bradford, you’re going to have different attitudes to if you were Muslim and you lived in an area where all your friends and work colleagues are all white.

“All the things ICM asked about, like attitudes to marriage... probably would have got slightly different answers if you asked questions in an area where you included Muslims who are the only Muslim in the village.”

Wells said it is difficult to get representative data about Muslims as they make up only 4.5% of the population: “You can’t just ring round people at random, so you end up either going to places where you know there’s lots of Muslims, or getting people from a large database.

“You [can also] find a couple of Muslims and ask have you go any phone numbers for other Muslims. Which is a bit cheap and cheerful. Or there’s even a case where they rang up people with Muslim-sounding names. There are issues with that.”

While Wells concluded that the Channel 4 research was valuable: “We just need to be aware of the comprises and the caveats. That doesn’t mean you throw it away or ignore it, because it’s good stuff and it’s the best we’ve had for years.”

didge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:Trevor Philips has been described as being so far to the Right on Multiculturism that he should join the BNP.

He's forever wring articles and making short documentories blasting multiculturism so thi is nothing new.

I'd like to the ICM tabs on this to see wht questions were asked.

I believe on homosexuality you may well get similiar results from the Christian and Jewish communities. I fact in Israel itself the majority of the population are against it.

ICM carried out a simililar poll in 2006 and found that 40% though Sharia Law should be allowed in the UK. That's almost halfed and it's now onlt 23% so that's progress.

And if you look at the dire impressions of homosexuality in midle east countries it shows that at 50% are against it in this country then there is surely evidence that many have integrated.

Quelle surprise

Nothing about the information gathered or the points raised but to again attack the the person who compiled the information

You then make other outlandish claims

Yes there is some within other minorities that do not accept homosexuality

No idea how Israel has anything to do with the UK as a comparison where you go from saying Jews and is fundamentally racial in nature, as 20% of israeli's are Arabs. Maybe you should make a real comparison based on other Muslim countries where it is criminally punishable, where even in some the punishment is death.

Though just to show you are lying

http://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-70-of-israelis-support-recognition-for-gays/

Not sure about the Uk, but here is the US with Jews

83% of American Jews Support 'Gay Marriage'
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/177877

Again this is about a group that are separate from  the majority of Muslims, a society within a society and you offer the worst deflections going, where there have been plenty of Polls on the British population, which is still a majority Christian as a belief, showing again your view to be poor to say the least

Get your facts right before accusing people of lying. That data came from the Pew Research data examining  the Global Divide on Homosexuality not some poll by someone in Tel Aviv university.

And you may have noticed that I mentioned the dire figures for the Middle East nations compared to the data by Muslims in this country.

In the absense of data on alternatives to Muslims where else better to go than Irael to gauge how it is viwed by the population there.

And this 'Quelle surprise' thing you have cottoned to is so last year Didge.  Just say STFU

didge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:I bet none of you have read the actual survey.

1081 Muslims surveyed. Barley statistically representative.

Half of those asked were semi-skilled or unemployed.

60% asked were not born in Britain - although about 90% say they belong to Britain.

Just about half of the above thought homosexuality should be illegal.

Sometimes it matters who you ask.  The same survey using the same demographic expect for being Muslim, would probably find the same trend.

So polls are of zero importance then to you and where they show issues, you want to bury your head in the sand with them.

Quelle surprise

They offer up opportunities and it does shows problems, which you can then try to work on. Problems I might add that people already view and see everyday in life

Your claims to find the same trend are unsubstantiated and shows further more you instead of wanting to recognise issues, instead, wish to ignore them

Huffington Post wrote:A spokesperson for Channel 4 said the programme, airing on Wednesday night, would be “very clear” about how the survey was conducted.

“Around 50 per cent of British Muslims live in the areas we surveyed. ICM, which is one of the UK’s leading polling organisations, with a long track record of producing credible and accurate surveys, is satisfied that the results allow us to draw strong conclusions about the views of UK Muslims.

“There is no evidence to suggest that Muslims have radically different attitudes to the issues surveyed depending on whether they live in areas of more than, or less, than 20 per cent Muslim population.”
Anthony Wells, Research Director at the rival pollster YouGov, called ICM’s survey “the best coverage and the best polling we’ve had of British Muslims for years” and stressed that all research must be restricted by budget.

“Any way you do a poll of British Muslims, you end up making some compromises,” he added.  

Surveying areas with a high Muslim population would give different answers compared to areas with an average population of around 4.5%, Wells said: “If you make the assumption that people who live in an area that is very strongly Muslim, like Tower Hamlets or Bradford, you’re going to have different attitudes to if you were Muslim and you lived in an area where all your friends and work colleagues are all white.

“All the things ICM asked about, like attitudes to marriage... probably would have got slightly different answers if you asked questions in an area where you included Muslims who are the only Muslim in the village.”

Wells said it is difficult to get representative data about Muslims as they make up only 4.5% of the population: “You can’t just ring round people at random, so you end up either going to places where you know there’s lots of Muslims, or getting people from a large database.

“You [can also] find a couple of Muslims and ask have you go any phone numbers for other Muslims. Which is a bit cheap and cheerful. Or there’s even a case where they rang up people with Muslim-sounding names. There are issues with that.”

While Wells concluded that the Channel 4 research was valuable: “We just need to be aware of the comprises and the caveats. That doesn’t mean you throw it away or ignore it, because it’s good stuff and it’s the best we’ve had for years.”

What are you talking about? Rather than addressing any points, you've just given me an emotional rant. And then tried to divert the focus to another poll. Lol!

Nor did i recognise any trend. I merely educated myself my reading the actual data from the poll. This is want intelligent and rational people do.

Irn Bru wrote:

didge wrote:


Quelle surprise

Nothing about the information gathered or the points raised but to again attack the the person who compiled the information

You then make other outlandish claims

Yes there is some within other minorities that do not accept homosexuality

No idea how Israel has anything to do with the UK as a comparison where you go from saying Jews and is fundamentally racial in nature, as 20% of israeli's are Arabs. Maybe you should make a real comparison based on other Muslim countries where it is criminally punishable, where even in some the punishment is death.

Though just to show you are lying

http://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-70-of-israelis-support-recognition-for-gays/

Not sure about the Uk, but here is the US with Jews

83% of American Jews Support 'Gay Marriage'
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/177877

Again this is about a group that are separate from  the majority of Muslims, a society within a society and you offer the worst deflections going, where there have been plenty of Polls on the British population, which is still a majority Christian as a belief, showing again your view to be poor to say the least

Get your facts right before accusing people of lying. That data came from the Pew Research data examining  the Global Divide on Homosexuality not some poll by someone in Tel Aviv university.

And you may have noticed that I mentioned the dire figures for the Middle East nations compared to the data by Muslims in this country.

In the absense of data on alternatives to Muslims where else better to go than Irael to gauge how it is viwed by the population there.

And this 'Quelle surprise' thing you have cottoned to is so last year Didge.  Just say STFU

He didn't even know how to spell 'Quelle' until I corrected him.

Irn Bru wrote:

didge wrote:


Quelle surprise

Nothing about the information gathered or the points raised but to again attack the the person who compiled the information

You then make other outlandish claims

Yes there is some within other minorities that do not accept homosexuality

No idea how Israel has anything to do with the UK as a comparison where you go from saying Jews and is fundamentally racial in nature, as 20% of israeli's are Arabs. Maybe you should make a real comparison based on other Muslim countries where it is criminally punishable, where even in some the punishment is death.

Though just to show you are lying

http://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-70-of-israelis-support-recognition-for-gays/

Not sure about the Uk, but here is the US with Jews

83% of American Jews Support 'Gay Marriage'
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/177877

Again this is about a group that are separate from  the majority of Muslims, a society within a society and you offer the worst deflections going, where there have been plenty of Polls on the British population, which is still a majority Christian as a belief, showing again your view to be poor to say the least

Get your facts right before accusing people of lying. That data came from the Pew Research data examining  the Global Divide on Homosexuality not some poll by someone in Tel Aviv university.

And you may have noticed that I mentioned the dire figures for the Middle East nations compared to the data by Muslims in this country.

In the absense of data on alternatives to Muslims where else better to go than Irael to gauge how it is viwed by the population there.

And this 'Quelle surprise' thing you have cottoned to is so last year Didge.  Just say STFU

You were lying, you said they were againt homosexuality as the worst deflection due to your hatred of Jews and submission to Islamism
Israel has equality for homosexuals as well, showing you to poorly again ignore all the points in the debate.

So I showed you Israel Jews and American Jews supporting homosexual rights.

You have been exposed again and not a single points on the article where you try and shift it in any way possible in order to avoid talking about the problems

Quelle surprise

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

didge wrote:


So polls are of zero importance then to you and where they show issues, you want to bury your head in the sand with them.

Quelle surprise

They offer up opportunities and it does shows problems, which you can then try to work on. Problems I might add that people already view and see everyday in life

Your claims to find the same trend are unsubstantiated and shows further more you instead of wanting to recognise issues, instead, wish to ignore them

What are you talking about? Rather than addressing any points, you've just given me an emotional rant. And then tried to divert the focus to another poll. Lol!

Nor did i recognise any trend. I merely educated myself my reading the actual data from the poll. This is want intelligent and rational people do.  

Deflection again

Avoiding all points

You are not in a position to judge people over intelligence when you believe in a myth that controls your reasons

The former head of the UK Equality and Human Rights Commission has once again said the ‘unsayable’.  In a piece for the Sunday Times (ahead of a Channel 4 documentary to go out on Wednesday) Trevor Phillips unveils an in-depth new poll carried out by ICM (which can be viewed here).

The findings include the facts that:

23 percent of British Muslims polled support the idea of there being areas of the UK where sharia law is introduced instead of British law.

39 percent believe wives should always obey their husbands.

31 percent believe it is acceptable for British Muslims to keep more than one wife.

52 percent think homosexuality should be illegal in the UK.

The usual people are trying to find ways to quibble with the authority or depth of this poll.  Their effort only proves once again that however bad the facts, some people remain so sectarian that they will continue to blame everything except the problem for the problem (‘How dare that bigoted polling company discover our dirty laundry?’)

But in some ways the Phillips piece is most important for what he himself admits.  Among other things Phillips confesses that Britain has for years been telling itself a lie in relation to its Muslim populations – not least in pretending that they will blend in just like everyone else.  Phillips writes:

‘Britain desperately wants to think of its Muslims as versions of the Great British Bake Off winner Nadiya Hussain, or the cheeky-chappie athlete Mo Farah. But thanks to the most detailed and comprehensive survey of British Muslim opinion yet conducted, we now know that just isn’t how it is.’
He even recognises that the authority for these views may in fact come from Muslim scriptures and traditions.  After a discussion of British Muslim attitudes towards women he says:

‘We didn’t get to discuss whether the injunction at sura 4:34 of the Koran to chastise your wife falls under this rubric. I have no doubt that many husbands will claim that it does. The bland Koranic platitude, in my view, hides a clear invitation to legitimise domestic violence.’

For all of which – and more – Trevor Phillips deserves considerable praise.  Once again he has proved able to break taboos which too many liberals in the UK are keen to continue enforcing in the face of all available evidence.

But a problem remains which Trevor Phillips himself continues to be a part of.  While admitting to the fact that he and others woefully misunderstood the nature of Muslim attitudes in the UK, and while admitting that many British liberals continue to be too frightened to face up to the facts, he says near the outset of his piece:

‘When I was chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, I played a principal role in the creation of UK laws against religious discrimination — and it was a report that I commissioned exactly 20 years ago that first introduced the term Islamophobia to Britain.’
Later on he says:

‘Twenty years ago, when, as chair of the Runnymede Trust, I published the report titled Islamophobia: A Challenge for Us All, we thought that the real risk of the arrival of new communities was discrimination against Muslims.’

And then:

‘Non-Muslims who live and work in areas with a large Muslim presence have been uneasily aware of the emerging differences for a long time, but many are too worried about being tagged as Islamophobes to raise the debate.’

Well isn’t that the problem right there? I am as happy as anyone to see the liberal dams cracking when it comes to the big issues of our time.  But it is harder to celebrate those causing those cracks when they are the very people who put up those dams in the first place.

It was the mainstreaming of the fraudulent concept of ‘Islamophobia’ and the whole grievance-industry set up by Trevor Phillips, the Equalities and Human Rights Commission and their ilk that made Britain so incapable of answering this problem any earlier.  Even now Trevor Phillips remains principally helpful in waking up to things just a few years too late.  So although his proscriptions for how to deal with this problem may be helpful, even this late in the day, they miss perhaps the biggest remaining ‘unsayable’.

So having mapped the fact that Muslims are uniquely unwilling to integrate into Britain, Phillips writes:

‘There are now nearly 3m Muslims living in Britain. Half of them were born abroad, and their numbers are being steadily reinforced by immigration from Africa, the Middle East, eastern Europe and the Far East, as well as the traditional flow from the Indian subcontinent. The best projections suggest that, by the middle of the century, the number of Muslims in Britain and elsewhere in Europe will at least double, given the youthfulness of the communities.’

Now if you accept the reality that Phillips now does accept – and that mainstream opinion across Europe is coming to accept – would one particular answer not stand out as eminently sensible at this juncture?  Such as turning that flow into the merest trickle?  If a community is currently causing a lot of challenges and looks like posing them for many generations to come, why on earth would you not slow that ‘steady reinforcement’?  Other than out of fear that you might be branded an ‘Islamophobe’?

I know from experience what an honourable and decent man Trevor Phillips is.  So here is a prediction.  In ten years time he will agree with people like me that the numbers matter, and that it is purest insanity to continue encouraging through migration the growth of a population which raises so many problems of integration once it is here.  Of course for another ten years those of us who do say that will be pelted with the same insults Phillips and some of his colleagues set in motion all those years ago.  And when he does say it there will be as much rejoicing as there is today for these latest statements.  The only snag is that ten years from now, when Trevor finds it comfortable to say this, it will be even later in the day to turn these trends around.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/trevor-phillips-is-finally-discovering-the-pitfalls-of-the-term-islamophobia/


Talk about being spot on how Zack and Irn replied lol

It really is quite sick that an Israeli government propaganda puppet should bring up the Geneva Convention in relation to the Palestinian people when the only people they are protecting in the illegal West Bank settlements are the illegal West Bank settles.

Israel spesifically excluded the West Bank and Gaza and the Palestinian people from the Geneva convention claiming that they have no rights.

Is there a puke smiley available

Irn Bru wrote:It really is quite sick that an Israeli government propaganda puppet should bring up the Geneva Convention in relation to the Palestinian people when the only people they are protecting in the illegal West Bank settlements are the illegal West Bank settles.

Israel spesifically excluded the West Bank and Gaza and the Palestinian people from the Geneva convention claiming that they have no rights.

Is there a puke smiley available

But abides by the Geneva conventions and does more than any other army when fighting terrorists and militias, who do not abide by any such rules and who commit constant war crimes

I love how the Islamist terrorist supporting scum cannot answer my points and on the wrong thread

Yes they protect their homes by attacking Israel with rockets which every single one fired is a war crime, as its indiscriminate

It makes me sick to the core they would back groups that deny the most basic human rights in gaza and the west bank and not want the Palestinian people free of extremists who use them as human shields

Oh look, we are playing The Waltons again.

didge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:It really is quite sick that an Israeli government propaganda puppet should bring up the Geneva Convention in relation to the Palestinian people when the only people they are protecting in the illegal West Bank settlements are the illegal West Bank settles.

Israel spesifically excluded the West Bank and Gaza and the Palestinian people from the Geneva convention claiming that they have no rights.

Is there a puke smiley available

But abides by the Geneva conventions and does more than any other army when fighting terrorists and militias, who do not abide by any such rules and who commit constant war crimes

I love how the Islamist terrorist supporting scum cannot answer my points and on the wrong thread

Yes they protect their homes by attacking Israel with rockets which every single one fired is a war crime, as its indiscriminate

It makes me sick to the core they would back groups that deny the most basic human rights in gaza and the west bank and not want the Palestinian people free of extremists who use them as human shields

So why won't the incude the Palestinian people and afford them their Human Rights instead of just the illegal settlers who they do protect?

The IDF use human shields and the UN found no evidence that that ever happened with the Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza.

Irn Bru wrote:

didge wrote:

But abides by the Geneva conventions and does more than any other army when fighting terrorists and militias, who do not abide by any such rules and who commit constant war crimes

I love how the Islamist terrorist supporting scum cannot answer my points and on the wrong thread

Yes they protect their homes by attacking Israel with rockets which every single one fired is a war crime, as its indiscriminate

It makes me sick to the core they would back groups that deny the most basic human rights in gaza and the west bank and not want the Palestinian people free of extremists who use them as human shields

So why won't the incude the Palestinian people and afford them their Human Rights instead of just the illegal settlers who they do protect?

The IDF use human shields and the UN found no evidence that that ever happened with the Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza.

Gobbledygook

Hamas builds no bomb shelters
Demands people stay after being warned of an attack
Stores and fires weapons within civilian areas

And you have not one condemnation of that, which ensures maximum casualties, which if israel did not care, would cost tens of thousands of lives in these conflicts all of which you over look

Most of all there would be no casualties at all if hamas did not keep attacking and the Palestinians had of accepted israel from the very beginning, all of which you ignore

didge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

didge wrote:

But abides by the Geneva conventions and does more than any other army when fighting terrorists and militias, who do not abide by any such rules and who commit constant war crimes

I love how the Islamist terrorist supporting scum cannot answer my points and on the wrong thread

Yes they protect their homes by attacking Israel with rockets which every single one fired is a war crime, as its indiscriminate

It makes me sick to the core they would back groups that deny the most basic human rights in gaza and the west bank and not want the Palestinian people free of extremists who use them as human shields

So why won't the incude the Palestinian people and afford them their Human Rights instead of just the illegal settlers who they do protect?

The IDF use human shields and the UN found no evidence that that ever happened with the Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza.

Gobbledygook

Hamas builds no bomb shelters
Demands people stay after being warned of an attack
Stores and fires weapons within civilian areas

And you have not one condemnation of that, which ensures maximum casualties, which if israel did not care, would cost tens of thousands of lives in these conflicts all of which you over look

Most of all there would be no casualties at all if hamas did not keep attacking and the Palestinians had of accepted israel from the very beginning, all of which you ignore

They don't have enough material s to build decent bomb shelters and why should they need them anyway when the IDF shouldn't be bombing anyone in such a confined area as Gaza?

If Israel would lift the blockade and seriously nregtiate a two state solution instead of denying that and also stop provoking the Palestians with their heavy handed treatment of civilain population with raids on their homes then maybe the confict could be resolved peacfully.

I have always condemned the killing of innocent civilians wither that are Israeli or Palestinians so stop making things up.

Irn Bru wrote:

didge wrote:

Gobbledygook

Hamas builds no bomb shelters
Demands people stay after being warned of an attack
Stores and fires weapons within civilian areas

And you have not one condemnation of that, which ensures maximum casualties, which if israel did not care, would cost tens of thousands of lives in these conflicts all of which you over look

Most of all there would be no casualties at all if hamas did not keep attacking and the Palestinians had of accepted israel from the very beginning, all of which you ignore

They don't have enough material s to build decent bomb shelters and why should they need them anyway when the IDF shouldn't be bombing anyone in such a confined area as Gaza?

If Israel would lift the blockade and seriously nregtiate a two state solution instead of denying that and also stop provoking the Palestians with their heavy handed treatment of civilain population with raids on their homes then maybe the confict could be resolved peacfully.

I have always condemned the killing of innocent civilians wither that are Israeli or Palestinians so stop making things up.

They have plenty of material which is used to build tunnels to attack israel and smuggles weapons

Why should Israel lift its security effective measures, to then allow Hamas to commit suicide bombings against Israel

You neglect Israel withdrew from Gaza and Hams was elected to power and even before had been attacking Israel

Your defense of Islamists is both disgusting and just sums up regressiveness in all its glory

They only have to do one thing for peace and for the blockade to be lifted

Bring about lasting peace with Israel and recognise its right to existence

You take away any responsibility from Hamas who constantly attack Israel

Peace is a two way street, not one forced onto Israel, because she looks to defend herself from constant attack


Typical regressive to deflect the main points of the debate onto Israel

So take this up elsewhere this debate is about the problems in the UK with a sect of Muslims within the Muslim community

Since I last posted on this topic the full poll results have been published, Trevor Phillips’ documentary has been broadcast and a great deal of ink and airtime have been devoted to dissecting the results. I had quibbles with the programme – but still more quibbles with many of its detractors.    So here are a few reflections, with links to just some of the many comment pieces – good and bad – generated by both poll and programme.

Methodology
As Iram Ramzan observes at the opening of her recent robust post:

This was the week when British Muslims became experts in research methodology.

One now familiar point struck me when I first read the methodology section appended to the initial article.



It’s not clear to me how different the poll would have been if it hadn’t limited itself to these areas.   However if there had been a discrepancy it presumably would have been in the direction of tolerance and secularism, so it’s not surprising that liberal Muslims, in particular, raised this point. Other methodological criticisms seemed like special pleading, such as complaints about sample size.  The NSS’s Benjamin Jones, after pointing out that as many Muslims sympathise with suicide bombers as favour the right to publish images of Mohammed, is surely right to call out double standards here.

If a poll of 1000 UKIP members had found majority support for criminalising homosexuality, would anybody on the left be quibbling about the methodology of the poll? If poll after poll kept suggesting that a sizeable block of UKIP’s 3.8 million supporters wanted to ban homosexuality, it is inconceivable that this would not be a cause for serious concern and scrutiny. The criticism would be totally unrestrained.

This, from Anthony Wells, seems sensible.
I’ve seen and heard several people grumbling that if you had polled other faith groups you would have come up with similar findings.  However the suggested groups are always subsets – Baptists, Catholics, Hasidic Jews – so, even if this is true, the data wouldn’t be comparable with a poll of all British Muslim opinion.

Age of respondents.
There was some discussion, following my previous post, about the correlation between (il)liberal views and age.  The poll threw up mixed results here.  In response to some questions – such as those on homosexuality – there was a hearteningly steady correlation between youth and comparative liberalism., though still of course a disappointingly large gap between young Muslims and non-Muslims. Generally there was also quite a strong correlation between being older and holding conservative views.  However another pattern was the parabola – on some issues the most liberal views were held by the middle aged or middle youthed.   It’s hard to know whether this is a sign of regression or whether the views of today’s young Muslims will mellow in time.

It would take a long time to analyse the age data in full but, having sampled it when I first looked at the poll, although the news isn’t all good I’d rather stick with what we’ve got than see a complete reversal of the pattern – i.e.  see a set of poll data in which young Muslims held the views now held by their elders.

The programme itself
There were most certainly some positives.  Genuinely liberal Muslim voices were given a generous share of airtime.  Some of the ‘tough’ points raised by the programme were fair enough – yes, truly liberal voices are a minority and this fact needs to be confronted, not anxiously avoided.  But perhaps – without compromising rigour – more could have been done to ward off easily anticipated criticisms.  I’m sure the following points will irritate many readers, but why do you want to give people any excuse to ignore what’s really important here?  Why not make the programme as fair and calm as possible?

For example, given that support for terrorism wasn’t the key issue thrown up by the poll, it might have been better not to start with footage relating to 7/7.   The reconstruction of a polling interview didn’t add much and it was clear the fictional interviewee was no liberal.  Couldn’t a more liberal (and less morose) fictional Muslim have been added to the mix if it was felt viewers really needed this kind of diversion? Although howls of bias were over the top, there was some scope for a little more accentuation of the positives, alongside the fully necessary dissection of the negatives. For example, as well as emphasising the 17% of Muslims who want to lead largely separate lives it would have been good to remind us that many Muslims want no such thing.

And for balance, a bit more use could have been made of moments when the control poll worked to soften Muslim responses.  Although only 34% confirmed they’d report concerns with friends getting drawn into terrorist circles to the police, many were quick to point out that still fewer non-Muslims – 30% – gave the same answer.  It could be countered that this is a less charged anxiety for non-Muslims – that they found it more difficult to envisage a friend inclining to terrorism – but it was one of the biggest flaws in the programme that it failed to acknowledge the similarities between the two polled groups on this important issue.

The rhetoric could have been toned down at times.

Once we look deeper into the survey results we actually find a chasm has developed.

While the negative findings needed to be tackled head on – no question – this way of phrasing the mix of positive and negative responses seemed to privilege the negative.  It’s fine to point out that the negative responses were elicited in response to more questions or to more important questions but not to assume that negative responses were automatically more telling. Perhaps it was this aspect of the programme – ‘what lies beneath’  - which led some to claim that the title was conspiratorial, invoking, perhaps, taqiyya.

The question here implies that, whatever your Muslim neighbours may tell you, don’t believe them.

As someone who shares the concerns voiced in the programme, I’d have welcomed some adjustments which made it more likely that those more unwilling to acknowledge the problems would start to shift their views without feeling that to do so was pandering to anti-Muslim prejudice.

This comment from Trevor Phillips particularly struck me on first viewing.

“Others do hold views on some issues which look a bit more like the rest of Britain’.

There was absolutely no need to be so grudging  here.  Now they may be a much smaller minority than most of us would like, but there clearly is a liberal core of British Muslims who have views on all issues which are fully like the rest of  Britain (apart from those non-Muslims Britons who are themselves illiberal of course.)

Media responses
Bigots and the far right have revelled in these results.  Katie Hopkins was on her usual toxic form:

I sat down to watch ‘What British Muslims Really think’ with my best multicultural head on.
I cleared my mind of all preconceptions; grubby Rochdale cabbies passing white girls round for sex like a fried chicken bargain bucket, Imams beating kids into devotion, and the truly indoctrinated, blowing up Brussels to get 72 virgins in paradise.
…
It is them and us. And THEY have no wish to be anything like US.

It was good to see that the three top rated comments under her article were all sharp rebukes.   However and – to quote Katie Hopkins – ‘it pains me to say it’ – her analysis, however nastily framed, is not completely wrong – the poll threw up some truly disturbing findings and these cannot be brushed aside.

However that’s just what the respondents quoted in this Guardian piece sought to do. It’s not that every point they raised was worthless – it’s more that they  tended only to engage with the problematic findings in order to excuse them.

Many British Muslims hold traditional values that others of other faiths may hold such as disagreeing with same-sex marriage. Yet overwhelming evidence points to the fact that we are a patriotic community and have a strong affiliation and sense of belonging to this great nation.

If the only LGBT-related division raised by the poll was opposition to same-sex marriage there wouldn’t be so much concern.  A sense of belonging and patriotism isn’t some kind of get out of jail card for being a bigot. There’s more deflection in this crappy  piece by comedian  Aatif Nawaz – also an unengaging interviewee on the programme who thought that all that was needed to solve the antisemitism problem was to uncouple Judaism from Zionism.

How can it be possible that the views of 1,000 odd people can prove something about an entire community? According to the survey, half of all British-Muslims believe homosexuality should be illegal in the UK. I’m supposed to take ICM’s word for it? Because they were so right about the general election?

His conclusion was a string of non sequiturs

I made my points. Antisemitism is wrong. Homophobia is wrong. Misogyny is wrong. Surely in 2016 people can just take that as given? British Muslims are good people, so don’t buy into the scaremongering. Britain is better than that

Miqdaad Versi cleverly says the disquieting results mustn’t be swept under the carpet while doing just that.

These attitudes are not to be swept under the carpet, but are these issues high up on the agenda for British Muslims? The Muslim Council of Britain’s own research has shown that far more serious concerns relate to poverty, gender, criminality and Islamophobia.

I suppose it’s true that the situation would be still worse if say criminalising homosexuality was a major preoccupation for Muslims – I’m sure it isn’t – but how would Versi feel if a substantial proportion of Brits wanted to ban Islam, ideally, even though they were still more concerned by the problems facing the NHS? Of course there were plenty of good responses as well as predictable kneejerk stuff from both sides.  I’ve already linked to Iram Ramzan. Kenan Malik’s analysis was characteristically thoughtful, and Mohammed Amin offers some practical suggestions.

Normatives
While watching the programme I noticed a fair flurry of irritated tweets from liberal or liberalish Muslims who felt the programme was a bit souped up.  This was an understandable enough response from secular Muslims who would like their own stance to be amplified where possible.  However it’s been more difficult for our normative friends to know how to respond.  How angry can they get over findings which (regrettably) demonstrate that many British Muslims take what they see as the correct line on a fair few isues?
Here’s a rather sulky response from iERA.

One of my favourite reactions is this from 5Pillars’ Roshan Salih:

‘These are crazy questions designed to catch Muslims out and make them look bad.’

Oh dear.  He claimed that the questions about antisemitism weren’t asked of non-Muslims.  But in fact they were, and the results for one question he mentioned – ‘do Jews have too much power in Britain’ – were certainly sufficiently divergent to merit comment.  9% non-Muslims agreed, compared to 35%  Muslims. Interestingly he doesn’t mention the fact that – leaving ISIS to one side -  only 7% support the notion of a Caliphate.




http://hurryupharry.org/2016/04/17/trevor-phillips-some-more-responses-and-reflections/

didge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

didge wrote:

Gobbledygook

Hamas builds no bomb shelters
Demands people stay after being warned of an attack
Stores and fires weapons within civilian areas

And you have not one condemnation of that, which ensures maximum casualties, which if israel did not care, would cost tens of thousands of lives in these conflicts all of which you over look

Most of all there would be no casualties at all if hamas did not keep attacking and the Palestinians had of accepted israel from the very beginning, all of which you ignore

They don't have enough material s to build decent bomb shelters and why should they need them anyway when the IDF shouldn't be bombing anyone in such a confined area as Gaza?

If Israel would lift the blockade and seriously nregtiate a two state solution instead of denying that and also stop provoking the Palestians with their heavy handed treatment of civilain population with raids on their homes then maybe the confict could be resolved peacfully.

I have always condemned the killing of innocent civilians wither that are Israeli or Palestinians so stop making things up.

They have plenty of material which is used to build tunnels to attack israel and smuggles weapons

Why should Israel lift its security effective measures, to then allow Hamas to commit suicide bombings against Israel

You neglect Israel withdrew from Gaza and Hams was elected to power and even before had been attacking Israel

Your defense of Islamists is both disgusting and just sums up regressiveness in all its glory

They only have to do one thing for peace and for the blockade to be lifted

Bring about lasting peace with Israel and recognise its right to existence

You take away any responsibility from Hamas who constantly attack Israel

Peace is a two way street, not one forced onto Israel, because she looks to defend herself from constant attack


Typical regressive to deflect the main points of the debate onto Israel

So take this up elsewhere this debate is about the problems in the UK with a sect of Muslims within the Muslim community

Show me the amount of concrete that the Israei's have 'allowed' into Gaza.

Your defence of Israel in the way it inprisons Palestians is disgusting and immoral.

And what is the one thing that the Palestinaims have to do to get the blockade lifted? Agree to live under Israeli rule as part of the project that will allow them to run their own affairs wthin greater Israel That's the deal isn't it?

didge wrote:The former head of the UK Equality and Human Rights Commission has once again said the ‘unsayable’.  In a piece for the Sunday Times (ahead of a Channel 4 documentary to go out on Wednesday) Trevor Phillips unveils an in-depth new poll carried out by ICM (which can be viewed here).

The findings include the facts that:

23 percent of British Muslims polled support the idea of there being areas of the UK where sharia law is introduced instead of British law.

39 percent believe wives should always obey their husbands.

31 percent believe it is acceptable for British Muslims to keep more than one wife.

52 percent think homosexuality should be illegal in the UK.

The usual people are trying to find ways to quibble with the authority or depth of this poll.  Their effort only proves once again that however bad the facts, some people remain so sectarian that they will continue to blame everything except the problem for the problem (‘How dare that bigoted polling company discover our dirty laundry?’)

But in some ways the Phillips piece is most important for what he himself admits.  Among other things Phillips confesses that Britain has for years been telling itself a lie in relation to its Muslim populations – not least in pretending that they will blend in just like everyone else.  Phillips writes:

‘Britain desperately wants to think of its Muslims as versions of the Great British Bake Off winner Nadiya Hussain, or the cheeky-chappie athlete Mo Farah. But thanks to the most detailed and comprehensive survey of British Muslim opinion yet conducted, we now know that just isn’t how it is.’
He even recognises that the authority for these views may in fact come from Muslim scriptures and traditions.  After a discussion of British Muslim attitudes towards women he says:

‘We didn’t get to discuss whether the injunction at sura 4:34 of the Koran to chastise your wife falls under this rubric. I have no doubt that many husbands will claim that it does. The bland Koranic platitude, in my view, hides a clear invitation to legitimise domestic violence.’

For all of which – and more – Trevor Phillips deserves considerable praise.  Once again he has proved able to break taboos which too many liberals in the UK are keen to continue enforcing in the face of all available evidence.

But a problem remains which Trevor Phillips himself continues to be a part of.  While admitting to the fact that he and others woefully misunderstood the nature of Muslim attitudes in the UK, and while admitting that many British liberals continue to be too frightened to face up to the facts, he says near the outset of his piece:

‘When I was chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, I played a principal role in the creation of UK laws against religious discrimination — and it was a report that I commissioned exactly 20 years ago that first introduced the term Islamophobia to Britain.’
Later on he says:

‘Twenty years ago, when, as chair of the Runnymede Trust, I published the report titled Islamophobia: A Challenge for Us All, we thought that the real risk of the arrival of new communities was discrimination against Muslims.’

And then:

‘Non-Muslims who live and work in areas with a large Muslim presence have been uneasily aware of the emerging differences for a long time, but many are too worried about being tagged as Islamophobes to raise the debate.’

Well isn’t that the problem right there? I am as happy as anyone to see the liberal dams cracking when it comes to the big issues of our time.  But it is harder to celebrate those causing those cracks when they are the very people who put up those dams in the first place.

It was the mainstreaming of the fraudulent concept of ‘Islamophobia’ and the whole grievance-industry set up by Trevor Phillips, the Equalities and Human Rights Commission and their ilk that made Britain so incapable of answering this problem any earlier.  Even now Trevor Phillips remains principally helpful in waking up to things just a few years too late.  So although his proscriptions for how to deal with this problem may be helpful, even this late in the day, they miss perhaps the biggest remaining ‘unsayable’.

So having mapped the fact that Muslims are uniquely unwilling to integrate into Britain, Phillips writes:

‘There are now nearly 3m Muslims living in Britain. Half of them were born abroad, and their numbers are being steadily reinforced by immigration from Africa, the Middle East, eastern Europe and the Far East, as well as the traditional flow from the Indian subcontinent. The best projections suggest that, by the middle of the century, the number of Muslims in Britain and elsewhere in Europe will at least double, given the youthfulness of the communities.’

Now if you accept the reality that Phillips now does accept – and that mainstream opinion across Europe is coming to accept – would one particular answer not stand out as eminently sensible at this juncture?  Such as turning that flow into the merest trickle?  If a community is currently causing a lot of challenges and looks like posing them for many generations to come, why on earth would you not slow that ‘steady reinforcement’?  Other than out of fear that you might be branded an ‘Islamophobe’?

I know from experience what an honourable and decent man Trevor Phillips is.  So here is a prediction.  In ten years time he will agree with people like me that the numbers matter, and that it is purest insanity to continue encouraging through migration the growth of a population which raises so many problems of integration once it is here.  Of course for another ten years those of us who do say that will be pelted with the same insults Phillips and some of his colleagues set in motion all those years ago.  And when he does say it there will be as much rejoicing as there is today for these latest statements.  The only snag is that ten years from now, when Trevor finds it comfortable to say this, it will be even later in the day to turn these trends around.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/trevor-phillips-is-finally-discovering-the-pitfalls-of-the-term-islamophobia/


Talk about being spot on how Zack and Irn replied lol

Now you are citing Douglas Murray who thinks that the EDL and that Tommy Robinson is a swell guy who has been much maligned in the press for his views. He couldn't bting himself to condemn him - will you?

You've now hit rock bottom and well into the camp of the Islamaphobes. Pity you couldn't have come out with this sooner instead of concealing your true beliefs for all these years you have been defending the Ethnic communities.

You should be ashamed of yourself for changing your mind so often. It's disgusting.

So once again Irn cannot counter a single point but make the most outlandish accusations trying to deligitimize people and is unable to counter a single point

Try again sunshine, as bullshit and nonsense just do not cut it. Your views on people are insignificant and even more so when you make them on me. It just proves you are an inept weasel that cannot counter points.

Nobody cares what you think of people, what they do care, is the poor excuses you keep making

didge wrote:So once again Irn cannot counter a single point but make the most outlandish accusations trying to deligitimize people and is unable to counter a single point

Try again sunshine, as bullshit and nonsense just do not cut it. Your views on people are insignificant and even more so when you make them on me. It just proves you are an inept weasel that cannot counter points.

Nobody cares what you think of people, what they do care, is the poor excuses you keep making

These points have been countered on this thread already so stop making things up. Murray is just one of several racists and Ismamphobes that you have cited on here all of whom won't condemn Tommy Robinson or the EDL. I asked you if you would condemn and you couldn't do it either.

You had your chance and didn't take it so don't come crawling back and say you do now just to get out of the mess you have made.

Irn Bru wrote:

didge wrote:So once again Irn cannot counter a single point but make the most outlandish accusations trying to deligitimize people and is unable to counter a single point

Try again sunshine, as bullshit and nonsense just do not cut it. Your views on people are insignificant and even more so when you make them on me. It just proves you are an inept weasel that cannot counter points.

Nobody cares what you think of people, what they do care, is the poor excuses you keep making

These points have been countered on this thread already so stop making things up.  Murray is just one of several racists and Ismamphobes that you have cited on here all of whom won't condemn Tommy Robinson or the EDL. I asked you if you would condemn and you couldn't do it either.

You had your chance and didn't take it so don't come crawling back and say you do now just to get out of the mess you have made.

You have not countered a single point Irn

To then accuse Murray, a homosexual of racism and Isamophobia is nothing short of a joke and shows the lengths you go to in actually avoiding things said.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Murray_(author)

Again I am not interested in your views of people, I am interested in what is said and reasoned, which now on consecutive debates all you can do is accuse people..

Again that is insignificant just as your answers are.

The funniest part is I do not see where others agree like Victor, you excuse them of any of the same claims.

Is this because you are a hypocrite, or that you except they have genuine concerns.

Screaming and shouting racist, just does not cut it and its showing you up to be some what as a joke at debating Irn.

If all you can do is talk about me, then you concede everytime in a debate

Being that Murray is a homosexual, do you not think a homosexual has genuine concerns, or do you place the concerns of homosexuals as secondary to your appeasement of those who are homophobes?

My points again


But what about the genuine concerns of people?
We again have seen progression form a grow in the number of people in accepting of others.With the diminishing of control and power of Christianity in this country.
So if there is a proportion of Muslims within the county, who view Islam above UK law. are clearly not going to treat groups of people with equality under the law.

You will have women who are genuinely concerned
You will the LGTB concerned
Other religious groups concerned
You will also have some Muslims concerned being lumped together with them

By having  a number of people grow in numbers in conflict with society and law, that are non accepting other others and groups of its people. is going to create issues when living side by side, or in work or at school. Its taken years to reason for equality, which has been so successful, as stated now many Chrstians in the Uk are not literal believers and why more and more people are forming views to accept others. These Muslims even if a minority within the Muslim community,. are then adding more to the non-acceptance camp. they will then by their beliefs further cause problems where it had been diminishing.

How is this in anyway going to combat diminishing prejudices. in UK society?
This group of Muslims will by their prejudices, cause a rise of prejudice to the rest of Muslims..

So on all aspects, prejudice will increase in many areas now.

If people claim that is not a concern, they are kidding themselves

One last try