Muslims Marrying Mentally Handicapped Girls To Stay In UK

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:05 am

2nd January 2013

Well I knew some foreigners were raping British women to stay here but this is a new one - I guess we shouldn't be surprised.

Two Pakistani students married mentally handicapped British women so they could stay in the UK with one being deported but the other now claiming he has a human right to family life with his young son, High Court judges have heard.

The first man, who is in his 20s, began a relationship with a woman in her late teens two months after exhausting his rights of appeal.

They were married in a Muslim ceremony in June 2012, but last month the judge declared that marriage a sham and the man was deported.

The second man, who is in his 30s, married a woman, also in her 30s in a Muslim ceremony in late 2011 about six weeks after his application to stay in the UK was refused by immigration authorities.

An anonymous informant had called to tell officials that the woman's stepfather had received £20,000 'in consideration' of that marriage.

The woman became pregnant 'almost immediately' and gave birth to a son in the summer of 2012.

The man is now demanding to stay in the UK, basing his claim on his right to family life enshrined in the European Convention on Human Rights.

But in both cases, it has been claimed that the women's disabilities meant they did not have the capacity to consent to marriage.

Details have emerged in written rulings published on a legal website following separate hearings in the Court of Protection in London. Judges said no-one involved in either case could be named.

In the first case, a local authority had asked Mr Justice Keehan to make rulings about whether the teenager had the mental capacity to make decisions about her life - including the capacity to decide about entering into a 'contract of marriage'.

Ruling: Mr Justice Keehan today dissolved the sham marriage at the High Court after he decided that the victim lacked the mental capacity to make the decision to marry
Mr Justice Keehan concluded that one of the women had the capacity to consent to sexual relations but said she did not have the capacity to enter into a marriage contact

He said social workers became aware that she had begun a relationship with a Pakistani man in his 20s.

Local authority officials and police had warned that the man might commit an offence because the woman was unlikely to have the capacity to consent to sex and marriage.

Nevertheless the couple had 'entered into a purported Islamic marriage ceremony' at the man's home about 18 months ago.

Mr Justice Keehan said the man had arrived in the UK to study in 2009 but an application to stay was refused after an immigration tribunal concluded that he had submitted forged documents and attempted to deceive officials.

'His rights of appeal were exhausted in June 2011,' said the judge. 'It is in this context that he began a relationship with (the woman) in August 2011.'

The judge said that days after the marriage ceremony the man had claimed asylum because 'he feared he would be killed by his family who disapproved of his marriage to a white British woman'.

He said the man had been refused asylum and deported in August 2012.

Mr Justice Keehan concluded that the woman had the capacity to consent to sexual relations but said she did not have the capacity to enter into a marriage contact. And he ruled that the wedding ceremony she had been involved in was a 'non-marriage'.

In the second case, a local authority had asked Mrs Justice Parker to make decisions about whether the woman in her 30s had the capacity to consent to marriage and sexual relationships.

'A Muslim marriage, not recognised in this jurisdiction, was performed between them,' said Mrs Justice Parker.

'An anonymous informant had telephoned to state that the (woman's stepfather) had received £20,000 in consideration of the marriage.'

She said six weeks earlier the man's application to stay in the UK following the expiry of a two-year student visa had been refused.

He had subsequently applied for 'leave to remain on the grounds of his marriage'. The judge said 'immigration proceedings' were 'as yet unresolved'.

The judge concluded that the woman lacked the capacity to consent to sexual relations and lacked 'sufficient understanding' to consent to marriage.

Mrs Justice Parker said the man was basing a claim to remain in the UK on his right to family life enshrined in the European Convention on Human Rights.

'The reality is that he is now relying on his married and fatherhood ... in support of his claim to remain,' said the judge. 'So, the reality is that whatever his original motivation, (the woman) is being used.'

She added: '(The man's) position is bound to be self- serving.'

Mrs Justice Parker said the case had been about the woman - not her son. She was told that man wanted stay in England with the baby. She said plans for the little boy's care would need 'rigorous evaluation'.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2532274/Muslim-students-married-mentally-handicapped-women-stay-UK-one-deported-fights-human-right-family-life-baby.html#ixzz2pC8qzkvz

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:09 am

Yea, men who use women, there is a lot of it around, in all kinds of ways.

by Irn Bru Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:33 am

Sassy wrote:Yea, men who use women, there is a lot of it around, in all kinds of ways.

There certainly is as reported by the BBC just the other day. The two cases cited by Andy are awful and the two men who exploited these poor woman should be condemned for what they did but domestic abuse of women in the UK is nothing new and it appears to be on the increase in Durham in particular.

Here's the article...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-25203522

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:36 am

Think of all the con men who marry women and then abscond with their money etc.

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:56 am

But what about foreigners committing crimes in order to stay in the UK?

A Romanian ex-convict brutally raped a young woman in Wakefield because he wanted to be sent to a British jail to learn English.

Ali Majlat, 35, attacked the 21-year-old woman as she waited on a platform at Wakefield Kirkgate station.

He raped her in an underpass before robbing her of her mobile phone, purse and a bracelet at 8.30pm on Sunday October 12 last year, Leeds Crown Court heard.

The court heard after his arrest Majlat told a psychiatrist he decided to rape the woman because he wanted to go to jail where he would be fed, housed and be taught English.

Doctors ruled Majlat is not mentally ill.

Majlat raped the woman after travelling to Wakefield to visit his brother at the city's maximum security jail.

He fled to London but was arrested days later after a nationwide British Transport Police appeal.

The court heard Majlat said he entered the UK intending to visit his brother immediately after being released from a Romanian jail last June after serving time for theft and attempted robbery.

In September he was jailed for eight weeks by Horseferry Road magistrates in London for burglary

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:06 am

Andy, we could play the tit for tat game all night, and I could post 20 to your 1, but what's the fucking point? We all know there are crap men, and they are not crap because of the colour of their skin or their religion, they are crap because that is what they are.

But you carry on, because every post you make like that shows us what you are.

by Ben Reilly Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:40 am

I think it's really awesome that the native British never do anything horrible, and that it's only foreigners and Muslims. Keep us informed, Andy!

by Ben Reilly Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:47 am

Oh wait, what about people in Britain who are descended from Normans? They were invaders too, you know.

Hold on -- found somebody dealing with the Norman menace as well -- phew!

http://www.englisc-gateway.com/bbs/index

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:33 am

So none of you want to talk about the current news in the UK - that's what I posted about, nothing else.

Am I allowed to post threads about the current news Ben, or do you want me to stop at the request of sassy?

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:27 am

So how common is it for British men to marry mentally disabled women after paying their fathers large amounts of money?

Yes we have scum bags in this country but this is not something common. Our British culture is one of more or less sexual equality - equality that has been hard fought for, so young adults see marriage as relationship of well matched equals. Deliberate abuse of the mentally disabled is seen as abhorrent full stop to most and the use of a mentally disabled woman as seen here just would not occur.

Every culture has its good points and no so good points and surely a solid multi cultural society would be looking to encourage the good points of all its cultures not defend and protect the bad points of them.

Since when has the argument that someone else does nasty things been valid in pointing out something nasty? I see plenty of people here pointing out that just because so and so said whatsit that is not an excuse for someone else to say what they did. So how the hell can the fact that Brits do scum bag things be an excuse for these men to do what they did? Or a reason not to talk about it and condemn it?

by veya_victaous Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:34 am

Shit must be Bad Else Where.

My brother is coming home about 9 months into a 2 year UK visa because you got no jobs over there.....

::zomb:: ::zomb:: ::zomb:: ::zomb:: ::zomb::

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:50 am

veya_victaous wrote:Shit must be Bad Else Where.

My brother is coming home about 9 months into a 2 year UK visa because you got no jobs over there.....

::zomb:: ::zomb:: ::zomb:: ::zomb:: ::zomb::

What exactly has that got to do with men paying fathers to allow them to marry mentally disabled daughters?

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:11 am

sphinx wrote:So how common is it for British men to marry mentally disabled women after paying their fathers large amounts of money?

Yes we have scum bags in this country but this is not something common. Our British culture is one of more or less sexual equality - equality that has been hard fought for, so young adults see marriage as relationship of well matched equals. Deliberate abuse of the mentally disabled is seen as abhorrent full stop to most and the use of a mentally disabled woman as seen here just would not occur.

Every culture has its good points and no so good points and surely a solid multi cultural society would be looking to encourage the good points of all its cultures not defend and protect the bad points of them.

Since when has the argument that someone else does nasty things been valid in pointing out something nasty? I see plenty of people here pointing out that just because so and so said whatsit that is not an excuse for someone else to say what they did. So how the hell can the fact that Brits do scum bag things be an excuse for these men to do what they did? Or a reason not to talk about it and condemn it?

Yes sphinx there is no rights here as it is wrong to do, but what is also a tad worrying is why a paper continually finds the opportunity it can to write articles about Muslims is such a manner to promote fear within a group. There has been countless examples of where the Mail has even twisted stories to further a position it clearly has of a dislike of Muslims and what better way to instil fear in people is to continually find anything that paints them in a bad light.

So I will ask you a genuine question in regards to the point if the culprits had been British, would it have even made the pages of the Mail if they were?

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:59 am

I would sincerely hope hope so - but the whole point is that this crime could not be committed by a British person because the point of the crimes (as far as we can make out from the information presented) is to gain permanent leave to remain in the country.

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:03 pm

sphinx wrote:I would sincerely hope hope so - but the whole point is that this crime could not be committed by a British person because the point of the crimes (as far as we can make out from the information presented) is to gain permanent leave to remain in the country.

But this is the point Sphinx would they?

I can give examples of say child offending cases not even making the major newspapers and are only carried in local news, even though some are horrific, but if it is a Muslim or immigrant the Mail gives it near front page news.
Again how often is even a person classified as an atheist, Christian, Jew etc?
Why is it always of significance to say if the offender is a Muslim?

I would think people that commit such crimes are hardly religious are they?

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:26 pm

How many of the unreported cases are protected by family court rulings? I cannot give you even a rough answer because that answer is equally protected but the fact is huge numbers of cases involving children (not just criminal sexual ones of course) having rulings made preventing even the most unspecific reporting - journalists are not even allowed to state that some case heard somewhere involved accusations of something. Sod the ones you read in local papers the ones that dont make the local papers yet alone the nation ones are far more horrific. There have been cases of people sent to prison for trying to tell their MP about cases.

Yes the Mail is massively into stirring up trouble but sod the general situation lets be specific to the story this thread is about.

Is the nationality relevant in this specific case? IMO yes because permanent leave to remain is the object
Is faith relevant in this specific case? IMO yes because faith combined with nationality forms culture which has a major impact on choice of action - as in its present form large swathes of the Muslim religion she women as inferior to men (This is not from the origins of the faith incidentally - Islam originally had one of the most gender equal visions of all faiths) and this perception of inferiority directly impacts on the form the crimes of this story.

I mean are you saying that this story should not be reported because it involves Muslims/immigrants?

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:37 pm

sphinx wrote:How many of the unreported cases are protected by family court rulings? I cannot give you even a rough answer because that answer is equally protected but the fact is huge numbers of cases involving children (not just criminal sexual ones of course) having rulings made preventing even the most unspecific reporting - journalists are not even allowed to state that some case heard somewhere involved accusations of something. Sod the ones you read in local papers the ones that dont make the local papers yet alone the nation ones are far more horrific. There have been cases of people sent to prison for trying to tell their MP about cases.

No I am talking about cases where they are named and shamed and are British and do not make the main newspapers, this is the point I am trying to get across

Yes the Mail is massively into stirring up trouble but sod the general situation lets be specific to the story this thread is about.

yes but there is also such a thing as playing up to fears and manipulating the public into believing there is something wrong in being with recent news articles being a Romanian for example. It whips up people using fear and scare tactics

Is the nationality relevant in this specific case? IMO yes because permanent leave to remain is the object
never made any mention on nationality

Is faith relevant in this specific case? IMO yes because faith combined with nationality forms culture which has a major impact on choice of action - as in its present form large swathes of the Muslim religion she women as inferior to men (This is not from the origins of the faith incidentally - Islam originally had one of the most gender equal visions of all faiths) and this perception of inferiority directly impacts on the form the crimes of this story.
Balderdash, so you are telling me there is a culture of cheating and lying no matter if the Pakistani is Muslim or Christian then, being as there are distinct ethnic groups with Pakistan itself? Sorry that is bull to say the religion matters when faith plays no part is saying people should cheat a system, that is thus saying faiths allow people to break the law, they do not

I mean are you saying that this story should not be reported because it involves Muslims/immigrants?

Nope, i am saying what has the religion of the offenders got to do with the crime committed?

Nothing, unless of course you can point out to me where it stipulates in the Quran to cheat and break the law?
Whilst you are at it, you can thus using your logic then associate anyone by the standing of what they believe in, next you can associate any atheist on the grounds this is their culture? Is that what you are saying?
Which still does not answer why it seems to mainly only be Muslims who are labelled by their faith, why?

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:42 pm

Here is a good example for you sphinx:

Mail changes Islamophobic headline as ‘gesture of good will’

Posted on December 16, 2013 by Bob Pitt

In September the Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph published disgraceful reports that described a convicted drug dealer and wife beater as a “devout Muslim“.
Ash Choudry of the Building for the Future blog complained to the Press Complaints Commission and last week the PCC publishedthe result of the complaint against the Mail, which turned out to be the usual PCC fudge:
“Although the newspaper did not accept a breach of the Code, the complaint was resolved when the PCC negotiated the removal of the words ‘devout Muslim’ from the online article as a gesture of good will.”
Still, at least the headline has been changed, and credit is due to Building for the Future for pursuing this.

Muslims Marrying Mentally Handicapped Girls To Stay In UK Daily-Mail-devout-Muslim-headline1

Muslims Marrying Mentally Handicapped Girls To Stay In UK Daily-Mail-devout-Muslim-headline1

Muslims Marrying Mentally Handicapped Girls To Stay In UK Daily-Mail-devout-Muslim-headline-amended

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:43 pm

Now can you explain to me how a heroin dealer can be a devout Muslim?

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:44 pm

Sphinx is bang on about the family court, I have seen for myself what goes on under the guise of protecting the children's identity.

Yes men exploit women. These women lacked capacity which makes it so evil. They were exploited so illegal immigrants could stay in this country.

How many more whilst people sit around contemplating their navels terrified of the R word.

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:45 pm

PhilDidge wrote:Now can you explain to me how a heroin dealer can be a devout Muslim?

I think its called hiding behind a perverted view of a religion in order to abuse.

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:46 pm

NemsAgain wrote:Sphinx is bang on about the family court, I have seen for myself what goes on under the guise of protecting the children's identity.

Yes men exploit women. These women lacked capacity which makes it so evil. They were exploited so illegal immigrants could stay in this country.

How many more whilst people sit around contemplating their navels terrified of the R word.

Nems my point is in regards how papers perceive stories or play onto fears.

I am not talking about discussing any such stories but how they are printed to play on fears, which is something that was done once before in History to the cost of millions of lives.

Do you know who that was?

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:49 pm

NemsAgain wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:Now can you explain to me how a heroin dealer can be a devout Muslim?

I think its called hiding behind a perverted view of a religion in order to abuse.

You will find many that will use religion to further their crimes, it does not though mean in anyway there are even religious at all, they are just using religion to cover their crimes

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:50 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
NemsAgain wrote:Sphinx is bang on about the family court, I have seen for myself what goes on under the guise of protecting the children's identity.

Yes men exploit women. These women lacked capacity which makes it so evil. They were exploited so illegal immigrants could stay in this country.

How many more whilst people sit around contemplating their navels terrified of the R word.

Nems my point is in regards how papers perceive stories or play onto fears.

I am not talking about discussing any such stories but how they are printed to play on fears, which is something that was done once before in History to the cost of millions of lives.

Do you know who that was?

Im talking about a section of the community being treated differently. As on the other thread the other day reporting restrictions due to cultural reasons. Thats what plays on fears. There was no justification for that.

Didge, for the love of Mike please dont do a Godwin.

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:51 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
NemsAgain wrote:

I think its called hiding behind a perverted view of a religion in order to abuse.

You will find many that will use religion to further their crimes, it does not though mean in anyway there are even religious at all, they are just using religion to cover their crimes

Exactly!

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:07 pm

NemsAgain wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Nems my point is in regards how papers perceive stories or play onto fears.

I am not talking about discussing any such stories but how they are printed to play on fears, which is something that was done once before in History to the cost of millions of lives.

Do you know who that was?

Im talking about a section of the community being treated differently. As on the other thread the other day reporting restrictions due to cultural reasons. Thats what plays on fears. There was no justification for that.

Didge, for the love of Mike please dont do a Godwin.

This is not godwins law but showing how once before playing to peoples fears led to such a massive amount of hate being promoted towards people and Godwins law is a made up conception, which has no relevance to me.

The fact is what accounts for the many problems in this country be it rape of child sex crime? Nobody speaks of this as a cultural problem of the English do they? This is why the validity of such arguments do not stand up to any scrutiny, as when the arguments and reasons are placed onto people born here, posters don't have an answer

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:11 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
sphinx wrote:How many of the unreported cases are protected by family court rulings? I cannot give you even a rough answer because that answer is equally protected but the fact is huge numbers of cases involving children (not just criminal sexual ones of course) having rulings made preventing even the most unspecific reporting - journalists are not even allowed to state that some case heard somewhere involved accusations of something. Sod the ones you read in local papers the ones that dont make the local papers yet alone the nation ones are far more horrific. There have been cases of people sent to prison for trying to tell their MP about cases.

No I am talking about cases where they are named and shamed and are British and do not make the main newspapers, this is the point I am trying to get across

Yes the Mail is massively into stirring up trouble but sod the general situation lets be specific to the story this thread is about.

yes but there is also such a thing as playing up to fears and manipulating the public into believing there is something wrong in being with recent news articles being a Romanian for example. It whips up people using fear and scare tactics

Is the nationality relevant in this specific case? IMO yes because permanent leave to remain is the object
never made any mention on nationality

Is faith relevant in this specific case? IMO yes because faith combined with nationality forms culture which has a major impact on choice of action - as in its present form large swathes of the Muslim religion she women as inferior to men (This is not from the origins of the faith incidentally - Islam originally had one of the most gender equal visions of all faiths) and this perception of inferiority directly impacts on the form the crimes of this story.
Balderdash, so you are telling me there is a culture of cheating and lying no matter if the Pakistani is Muslim or Christian then, being as there are distinct ethnic groups with Pakistan itself? Sorry that is bull to say the religion matters when faith plays no part is saying people should cheat a system, that is thus saying faiths allow people to break the law, they do not

I mean are you saying that this story should not be reported because it involves Muslims/immigrants?

Nope, i am saying what has the religion of the offenders got to do with the crime committed?

Nothing, unless of course you can point out to me where it stipulates in the Quran to cheat and break the law?
Whilst you are at it, you can thus using your logic then associate anyone by the standing of what they believe in, next you can associate any atheist on the grounds this is their culture? Is that what you are saying?
Which still does not answer why it seems to mainly only be Muslims who are labelled by their faith, why?

So you have not actually read the article that we are debating - its first line is about the nationality of the men involved not their faith.

I do not say there is a culture of lying in Pakistan I am saying that men from a culture made up of nationality and faith where women are counted as less value than men are more likely to marry women with mental deficiencies likely to mean they do not understand the full ramifications of the situation. I mean didge would you lie and say you loved a mentally disabled woman to get her to marry you? It would mean more to you than it would a man culturally raised to see all women as mentally disabled. Equally there are cultures more likely to commit crimes of bribery and/or blackmail, others who would be happier killing, others who would favour drugs.

Take the situation - a man wishes to stay in a foreign country which wishes to deport him. Cultural/faith background would mean different criminal types (with the criminal type being widespread across all cultures) would come up with different criminal solutions. Some would look to bribe or blackmail the officials to stay. Some would look to forgery. Of those who considered marriage men from cultures of gender equality would be likely to go for a woman of normal intelligence and offer her inducements to enter a false marriage knowingly. Men from cultures where genders are perceived as unequal are happy to pay the father of a mentally handicapped woman. Surely that culture is therefore relevant.

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:13 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
NemsAgain wrote:

Im talking about a section of the community being treated differently. As on the other thread the other day reporting restrictions due to cultural reasons. Thats what plays on fears. There was no justification for that.

Didge, for the love of Mike please dont do a Godwin.

This is not godwins law but showing how once before playing to peoples fears led to such a massive amount of hate being promoted towards people and Godwins law is a made up conception, which has no relevance to me.

The fact is what accounts for the many problems in this country be it rape of child sex crime? Nobody speaks of this as a cultural problem of the English do they? This is why the validity of such arguments do not stand up to any scrutiny, as when the arguments and reasons are placed onto people born here, posters don't have an answer

I do hope you are not trying to compare the persecution of the Jews to the experiences of Muslims in this country!

The fact is what accounts for the many problems in this country be it rape of child sex crime?

What do you mean by this? I dont get you

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:14 pm

PhilDidge wrote:Now can you explain to me how a heroin dealer can be a devout Muslim?

Can you explain to me why a heroin dealer with no experience of modern Islam would force his wife to wear a veil?

Heroin dealers who abuse women are common to all faiths/nationalities/cultures - the form of that abuse is not common among faiths/nationalities/cultures.

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:19 pm

NemsAgain wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

This is not godwins law but showing how once before playing to peoples fears led to such a massive amount of hate being promoted towards people and Godwins law is a made up conception, which has no relevance to me.

The fact is what accounts for the many problems in this country be it rape of child sex crime? Nobody speaks of this as a cultural problem of the English do they? This is why the validity of such arguments do not stand up to any scrutiny, as when the arguments and reasons are placed onto people born here, posters don't have an answer

I do hope you are not trying to compare the persecution of the Jews to the experiences of Muslims in this country!

The fact is what accounts for the many problems in this country be it rape of child sex crime?

What do you mean by this? I dont get you

No I am comparing the same promotion of fear and scare stories that were used then as they are today, are you saying this is not the case, or would you like me to show you how in fact when in the time of the nazi's they played on the cultures not being compatible, how Judaism was a disease, how jews were rapists, raping German girls, how they were taking jobs etc, I could go on the list is endless, and I have studied this era and know very well the same fears were used back them is very similar today how it is portrayed against Muslim?
Do you wanna go there Nems?

Right why is it there is over 60,000 people in this country on the sex offenders register, of these half for child sex offences and being 95% are white British, is there a cultural issue with child offending?
Is it down to our culture why this happens.

Again think about this, as this is the argument here as seen being used

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:23 pm

So you can say with 100% certainty that there is not a problem of child abuse in any community other that the white?
95% on the sex offenders register are white how do the figures look when viewed as % of the population?

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:23 pm

Again with child sexual abuse.

The British cultural pattern for this is a much higher level of familial involvement or from immediate social circle Where it extends beyond this is far more likely to involve purchase in a slave like pattern with culture/religion/faith at origin being relatively unimportant.

The pattern seen among certain middle east immigrants involves deliberate selection of victims from faiths/cultures different from that of the offenders.

The crimes against the children are the same the way the children are selected is different and it is essential to recognize this for both prevention and investigation.

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:26 pm

NemsAgain wrote:So you can say with 100% certainty that there is not a problem of child abuse in any community other that the white?
95% on the sex offenders register are white how do the figures look when viewed as % of the population?

That is not what i am asking you, of which we will get to the point of other cultures

Quite big actually, approx 1 in a thousand are on the sex register.

Around 1 in 2000 are Paedos

So again please answer my question, is there a cultural problem behind this?

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:28 pm

sphinx wrote:Again with child sexual abuse.

The British cultural pattern for this is a much higher level of familial involvement or from immediate social circle Where it extends beyond this is far more likely to involve purchase in a slave like pattern with culture/religion/faith at origin being relatively unimportant.

The pattern seen among certain middle east immigrants involves deliberate selection of victims from faiths/cultures different from that of the offenders.

The crimes against the children are the same the way the children are selected is different and it is essential to recognize this for both prevention and investigation.

So you are saying it is a cultural problem them being as most is found with families, thus there would also be a cultural problem then with incest rape also then Sphinx.

The belief on selection is also misguided by you as many of the victims are also from the same ethnic backgrounds.

So your beliefs are misguided here also

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:30 pm

Children and young people who are vulnerable to sexual exploitation
Research and practice shows certain groups of children and young people are at greater risk of being sexually exploited through street grooming.
Children and young people particularly at risk of sexual exploitation include:

missing or runaway or homeless children
looked after children
children with prior experience of sexual abuse, physical abuse or emotional abuse or neglect
adolescents or pre-adolescents
girls (current research suggests most victims are girls but boys are also at risk: boys are considered less likely to disclose which may make boys more vulnerable and may explain the gender imbalance in known cases)
children not in education through exclusion or truancy or children regularly absent from school
children socially excluded from services such as health services
children from black and minority ethnic communities
children from migrant communities
refugee children and unaccompanied asylum seeking children
trafficked children
children with mental health conditions
children who use drugs and alcohol
children with learning difficulties and disabilities
children involved with gangs, with links to a gang through relatives or friends, or living in communities or neighbourhoods where there are gangs
children with a history of delinquent or criminal behaviour
children from families or communities with offending behaviours
children from families where there is substance misuse, domestic violence or parental mental health issues
young carers
children living in poverty or deprivation
children who associate with young people who are sexually exploited
children lacking friends or lacking friends from the same age group
children with low self-esteem or low self-confidence
children who have experienced bereavement or loss
care leavers.

http://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/resourcesforprofessionals/sexualabuse/identifying_sexually_exploited_children_wda85119.html

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:36 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
NemsAgain wrote:So you can say with 100% certainty that there is not a problem of child abuse in any community other that the white?
95% on the sex offenders register are white how do the figures look when viewed as % of the population?

That is not what i am asking you, of which we will get to the point of other cultures

Quite big actually, approx 1 in a thousand are on the sex register.

Around 1 in 2000 are Paedos

So again please answer my question, is there a cultural problem behind this?

Could it be described as cultural? I guess. As Sphinx correctly says in the white british the abuser is likely to be familial and alone

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:37 pm

sphinx wrote:Again with child sexual abuse.

The British cultural pattern for this is a much higher level of familial involvement or from immediate social circle Where it extends beyond this is far more likely to involve purchase in a slave like pattern with culture/religion/faith at origin being relatively unimportant.

The pattern seen among certain middle east immigrants involves deliberate selection of victims from faiths/cultures different from that of the offenders.

The crimes against the children are the same the way the children are selected is different and it is essential to recognize this for both prevention and investigation.

Sphinx for goodness sake, sexual exploitation or any other exploitation of kids happens in every walk of life, in every country and every religion or non religious groups and individuals.

Pie in the sky...

Your points would be taken on more at Flop's.

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:38 pm

PhilDidge wrote:Children and young people who are vulnerable to sexual exploitation
Research and practice shows certain groups of children and young people are at greater risk of being sexually exploited through street grooming.
Children and young people particularly at risk of sexual exploitation include:

missing or runaway or homeless children
looked after children
children with prior experience of sexual abuse, physical abuse or emotional abuse or neglect
adolescents or pre-adolescents
girls (current research suggests most victims are girls but boys are also at risk: boys are considered less likely to disclose which may make boys more vulnerable and may explain the gender imbalance in known cases)
children not in education through exclusion or truancy or children regularly absent from school
children socially excluded from services such as health services
children from black and minority ethnic communities
children from migrant communities
refugee children and unaccompanied asylum seeking children
trafficked children
children with mental health conditions
children who use drugs and alcohol
children with learning difficulties and disabilities
children involved with gangs, with links to a gang through relatives or friends, or living in communities or neighbourhoods where there are gangs
children with a history of delinquent or criminal behaviour
children from families or communities with offending behaviours
children from families where there is substance misuse, domestic violence or parental mental health issues
young carers
children living in poverty or deprivation
children who associate with young people who are sexually exploited
children lacking friends or lacking friends from the same age group
children with low self-esteem or low self-confidence
children who have experienced bereavement or loss
care leavers.

http://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/resourcesforprofessionals/sexualabuse/identifying_sexually_exploited_children_wda85119.html

Why have you posted this? It shouldnt be news to anyone surely?

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:38 pm

NemsAgain wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

That is not what i am asking you, of which we will get to the point of other cultures

Quite big actually, approx 1 in a thousand are on the sex register.

Around 1 in 2000 are Paedos

So again please answer my question, is there a cultural problem behind this?

Could it be described as cultural? I guess. As Sphinx correctly says in the white british the abuser is likely to be familial and alone

Even more so then it would be a cultural problem of not only child abuse but also incest, but please show me anywhere that this is reported as such in the media nems?

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:39 pm

NemsAgain wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:Children and young people who are vulnerable to sexual exploitation
Research and practice shows certain groups of children and young people are at greater risk of being sexually exploited through street grooming.
Children and young people particularly at risk of sexual exploitation include:

missing or runaway or homeless children
looked after children
children with prior experience of sexual abuse, physical abuse or emotional abuse or neglect
adolescents or pre-adolescents
girls (current research suggests most victims are girls but boys are also at risk: boys are considered less likely to disclose which may make boys more vulnerable and may explain the gender imbalance in known cases)
children not in education through exclusion or truancy or children regularly absent from school
children socially excluded from services such as health services
children from black and minority ethnic communities
children from migrant communities
refugee children and unaccompanied asylum seeking children
trafficked children
children with mental health conditions
children who use drugs and alcohol
children with learning difficulties and disabilities
children involved with gangs, with links to a gang through relatives or friends, or living in communities or neighbourhoods where there are gangs
children with a history of delinquent or criminal behaviour
children from families or communities with offending behaviours
children from families where there is substance misuse, domestic violence or parental mental health issues
young carers
children living in poverty or deprivation
children who associate with young people who are sexually exploited
children lacking friends or lacking friends from the same age group
children with low self-esteem or low self-confidence
children who have experienced bereavement or loss
care leavers.

http://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/resourcesforprofessionals/sexualabuse/identifying_sexually_exploited_children_wda85119.html

Why have you posted this? It shouldnt be news to anyone surely?

It is to sphinx read back to what she said

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:39 pm

NemsAgain wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

That is not what i am asking you, of which we will get to the point of other cultures

Quite big actually, approx 1 in a thousand are on the sex register.

Around 1 in 2000 are Paedos

So again please answer my question, is there a cultural problem behind this?

Could it be described as cultural? I guess. As Sphinx correctly says in the white british the abuser is likely to be familial and alone

It's not that part that is being disputed Nems, we know this form crime programmes on telly that abusers/murderers etc are familiar with their victim...

But not always.

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:40 pm

Joy Division wrote:
sphinx wrote:Again with child sexual abuse.

The British cultural pattern for this is a much higher level of familial involvement or from immediate social circle Where it extends beyond this is far more likely to involve purchase in a slave like pattern with culture/religion/faith at origin being relatively unimportant.

The pattern seen among certain middle east immigrants involves deliberate selection of victims from faiths/cultures different from that of the offenders.

The crimes against the children are the same the way the children are selected is different and it is essential to recognize this for both prevention and investigation.

Sphinx for goodness sake, sexual exploitation or any other exploitation of kids happens in every walk of life, in every country and every religion or non religious groups and individuals.

Pie in the sky...

Your points would be taken on more at Flop's.

Yes it does JD but does it happen in different ways? To protect children we have to understand child abuse in all its forms. To say it happens every where may be true but its not going to help any child?

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:41 pm

NemsAgain wrote:
Joy Division wrote:

Sphinx for goodness sake, sexual exploitation or any other exploitation of kids happens in every walk of life, in every country and every religion or non religious groups and individuals.

Pie in the sky...

Your points would be taken on more at Flop's.

Yes it does JD but does it happen in different ways? To protect children we have to understand child abuse in all its forms. To say it happens every where may be true but its not going to help any child?

No it does not help the problem, but what is being pointed out is that if the criminal is a Pakistani, then a claim of culture is offered as to a reason, when they are British, no such claim is made, why?

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:51 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
NemsAgain wrote:

Could it be described as cultural? I guess. As Sphinx correctly says in the white british the abuser is likely to be familial and alone

Even more so then it would be a cultural problem of not only child abuse but also incest, but please show me anywhere that this is reported as such in the media nems?

Why? I havent said the media said this?

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:55 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
NemsAgain wrote:

Yes it does JD but does it happen in different ways? To protect children we have to understand child abuse in all its forms. To say it happens every where may be true but its not going to help any child?

No it does not help the problem, but what is being pointed out is that if the criminal is a Pakistani, then a claim of culture is offered as to a reason, when they are British, no such claim is made, why?

I must have misunderstood then I thought the point sphinx made was an indigenous brit wouldnt have offended for this reason

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:58 pm

NemsAgain wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Even more so then it would be a cultural problem of not only child abuse but also incest, but please show me anywhere that this is reported as such in the media nems?

Why? I havent said the media said this?

i am saying to you how something is given as a reason to the exact same problem found in many societies but it is explained as a cultural problem in one and not another, why?

Now all offenders exploit those that are vulnerable, whether they are family members or not, so is this a cultural problem we have?

If yes why is it only stated as a view point on those who are immigrants and not those indigenous?

One reason is very clear, to promote a view of one having a cultural issue allows then a guilt by association onto said ethnic group and then people start to think there is something very wrong with people from that community, even though the same problem is found within our own community. Thus a distorted picture starts to emerge and the problem of child offending is then mainly centred onto one ethnic group, when all efforts should be made on not only prevention but on all those who target vulnerable children.

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:00 pm

NemsAgain wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

No it does not help the problem, but what is being pointed out is that if the criminal is a Pakistani, then a claim of culture is offered as to a reason, when they are British, no such claim is made, why?

I must have misunderstood then I thought the point sphinx made was an indigenous brit wouldnt have offended for this reason

If that is what she thinks, then there again is an imbalance to the how people look at an issue as it will be a cultural problem within all societies, when there is a high amount of offenders. They will use different methods but all seek to abuse those who are vulnerable.

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:08 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
NemsAgain wrote:

I must have misunderstood then I thought the point sphinx made was an indigenous brit wouldnt have offended for this reason

If that is what she thinks, then there again is an imbalance to the how people look at an issue as it will be a cultural problem within all societies, when there is a high amount of offenders. They will use different methods but all seek to abuse those who are vulnerable.

100% correct Didge. Until we can get past the racism that brands all Pakistanis paedophiles and the PC cowardice that refuses to accept that some Pakistanis (just like every other race bla bla bla) are paedophiles then children and vulnerable people will still be abused. Sometimes its like people are so busy pushing their agendas they forget the victims.

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:10 pm

NemsAgain wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

If that is what she thinks, then there again is an imbalance to the how people look at an issue as it will be a cultural problem within all societies, when there is a high amount of offenders. They will use different methods but all seek to abuse those who are vulnerable.

100% correct Didge. Until we can get past the racism that brands all Pakistanis paedophiles and the PC cowardice that refuses to accept that some Pakistanis (just like every other race bla bla bla) are paedophiles then children and vulnerable people will still be abused. Sometimes its like people are so busy pushing their agendas they forget the victims.

I agree the failings of the police and social services due to fears of racism are wrong and a crime should be taken on the facts of the case and not the race Nems, so very much agree on that and this was a massive failing in the grooming cases.

by Guest Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:12 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
NemsAgain wrote:

100% correct Didge. Until we can get past the racism that brands all Pakistanis paedophiles and the PC cowardice that refuses to accept that some Pakistanis (just like every other race bla bla bla) are paedophiles then children and vulnerable people will still be abused. Sometimes its like people are so busy pushing their agendas they forget the victims.

I agree the failings of the police and social services due to fears of racism are wrong and a crime should be taken on the facts of the case and not the race Nems, so very much agree on that and this was a massive failing in the grooming cases.

And its still continuing Didge. Some of these children are so incredibly vulnerable and continue to be.

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