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Israel dismantles Dutch-funded West Bank farming project

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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 12:23 am

Israel dismantles Dutch-funded West Bank farming project Artillery_Corps_Operate_Near_the_Gaza_Border_14536980060-1500x575
Israeli army (Photo: Israel Defense Forces / Wikimedia Commons)
The Israeli army dismantled a Dutch-funded project on the West Bank of the Jordan river. The project is an agricultural project in which the Netherlands put 10 million euros, Israel correspondent Jan Franke told BNR.


The project involved teaching Palestinians how to use the land for growing their crops. The entire project, including tools and sheds, was dismantled. According to diplomats, the dismantling was done as revenge – Israel is upset that the EU wants to put special labels on products from Israeli settlements.

Not much can be done against the Israeli’s decision to dismantle the project, Franke said to the broadcaster. “There are many EU aid projects on the West Bank.” he said. “And essentially all the projects and and initiatives exist at the mercy of the Israeli army. They have the control there. If they say: ‘We are going to dismantle, this is not allowed’, then you stand there empty handed.”

http://www.nltimes.nl/2016/02/29/israel-dismantles-dutch-funded-west-bank-farming-project/

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Post by HoratioTarr Sat Mar 05, 2016 12:30 am

Why aren't Israel taking in refugees? Or are they?
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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 12:31 am

You gotta be kidding

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3224394/Israeli-Prime-Minister-rejected-calls-opposition-leaders-Syrian-refugees-saying-country-small.html

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Post by HoratioTarr Sat Mar 05, 2016 12:38 am

sassy wrote:You gotta be kidding

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3224394/Israeli-Prime-Minister-rejected-calls-opposition-leaders-Syrian-refugees-saying-country-small.html

http://www.globalresearch.ca/guess-who-is-behind-the-islamic-state-israeli-colonel-caught-with-is-pants-down/5491582
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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 12:39 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
sassy wrote:You gotta be kidding

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3224394/Israeli-Prime-Minister-rejected-calls-opposition-leaders-Syrian-refugees-saying-country-small.html

http://www.globalresearch.ca/guess-who-is-behind-the-islamic-state-israeli-colonel-caught-with-is-pants-down/5491582


Oh yes, seen that, amazing how they don't get touched in an area where everyone else does and with Hamas fighting ISIS is Yarmouk.

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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 12:41 am

In late October an Iranian news agency, quoting a senior Iraqi intelligence officer, reported the capture of an Israeli army colonel, named Yusi Oulen Shahak, reportedly related to the ISIS Golani Battalion operating in Iraq in the Salahuddin front. In a statement to Iran’s semi-official Fars News Agency a Commander of the Iraqi Army stated, “The security and popular forces have held captive an Israeli colonel.”

He added that the IDF colonel “had participated in the Takfiri ISIL group’s terrorist operations.” He said the colonel was arrested together with a number of ISIL or IS terrorists, giving the details: “The Israeli colonel’s name is Yusi Oulen Shahak and is ranked colonel in Golani Brigade… with the security and military code of Re34356578765az231434.”

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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 12:52 am

LOL, you can see now that Didge has become desperate and is posting over and over to try and stop people reading this lol

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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 12:54 am

HoratioTarr wrote:Why aren't Israel taking in refugees? Or are they?
http://ardc-israel.org/en/content/refugees-israel

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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 12:59 am

Oh dear, had a peep, silly Didge, his link:

Refugees in Israel
Donate Now!
An Overview
Israel dismantles Dutch-funded West Bank farming project Asylum_seeker_protestingIsrael is a reluctant host to 46,437 African asylum seekers predominantly from Eritrea (73%) and Sudan (19%) and a small minority (8%) arriving from several other African countries. The state policy toward asylum seekers (particularly Eritreans and Sudanese) is one of temporary non-deportation, officially referred to as “group protection.” Asylum seekers in Israel are denied basic rights and access to social services and the government of Israel has employed various policies to pressure asylum seekers to leave – including indefinite arbitrary detention, refusal to accept and review asylum claims, limitation of access to basic state-sponsored services, incitement and coerced repatriation. The Supreme Court of Israel has, in two distinct decisions, affirmed that the State’s treatment of African asylum seekers is unacceptable and violates fundamental laws concerning human dignity and liberty. The Court insisted on a comprehensive policy that seriously tackles this issue, but the government remains noncompliant.
Prevention of Infiltration Law
The Prevention of Infiltration Law was passed and implemented in the 1950s, to address Palestinian refugees who re-entered Israel after the establishment of the state of Israel. Whether seeking to return to their homes or to commit terrorist attacks, these individuals were identified as “infiltrators,” highlighting the illegal nature of their border-crossing and the perceived danger they posed to national security. Since 2008, the government of Israel began to apply this term to African asylum seekers and actively sought to utilize the Law against them. In the subsequent years, the Israeli Knesset worked diligently to draft a new amendment to the Law that would officially include African asylum seekers. In 2011 the Knesset successfully passed Amendment III (Amendment I and II referred to Palestinian populations) and implemented it in 2012.  
Timeline
Amendment III
Amendment III is the first amendment to the Prevention of Infiltration Law relevant to asylum seekers. It allowed for administrative detention of individuals crossing the border with Egypt “illegally” for up to 3 years and for those coming from “enemy states” for up to 7 years. The Israeli Supreme Court voided Amendment III and ordered the State to release some 2,000 men, women and children from prison, and to review all of their asylum claims within 90 days. The State did not fully comply, releasing only women and children and a small number of humanitarian cases without reviewing their refugee claims, and then passing Amendment IV that became effective immediately.
Amendment IV
Israel dismantles Dutch-funded West Bank farming project HolotAmendment IV allowed for administrative detention of anyone crossing the border with Egypt “illegally” for 1 year and interminable administrative detention in Holot of individuals who cannot be deported. The State’s explicit intention was to prevent asylum seekers from settling in Israeli cities, although it is clear that it wanted to break the spirit of asylum seekers and to coerce them to sign “voluntary returns” and thereby self-deport. The Israeli Supreme Court voided Amendment IV and ordered for immediate closure of Holot detention center, reduction of daily roll-calls from three to one, and release of asylum seekers held in Saharonim prison. The State did not fully comply, reducing roll calls to one per day and then proceeding to pass Amendment V that became effective immediately.
Amendment V
Amendment V allows for administrative detention of anyone crossing the border with Egypt “illegally” for up to 18 months. The Israeli Supreme Court is expected to rule on its legality in May of 2015.
Refugee Protest Movement
In 2014, African asylum-seekers in Israel came out with a clear voice and asserted themselves as lead players in the process of securing their own rights. A strong cadre of leaders surfaced from within the community and assumed key roles in community mobilization, awareness raising and advocacy. The movement inspired and instilled hope among asylum seekers in spite of the dire situation and brought awareness to Israeli society. For the first time, asylum-seekers were given a face and a name. Key leaders stated their goals and objectives in Hebrew to the local media. Their demands were reasonable, and their approach was orderly and nonviolent, contrary to popular stereotypes. The movement put asylum-seekers on the agenda and generated sympathy among the general public, key decision-makers and stakeholders.  At its height, the movement generated participation of 20,000+ asylums seekers and their supporters.







So treating the Africans like shit and none from Syria then.

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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:01 am

More than the uK with far less a populaion

Giving Africans a sanctuary from Islamism

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Post by HoratioTarr Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:01 am

Didge wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:Why aren't Israel taking in refugees? Or are they?
http://ardc-israel.org/en/content/refugees-israel

How about Syrian ones?
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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:03 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Didge wrote:
http://ardc-israel.org/en/content/refugees-israel

How about Syrian ones?


Interesting point, how many have headed for Israel?

Then ask yourelf this riddle

http://www.jewishnews.co.uk/special%E2%80%88report-israels-medical-aid-across-enemy-lines/

Such a barbaric people eh?
Not

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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:05 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Didge wrote:
http://ardc-israel.org/en/content/refugees-israel

How about Syrian ones?


The only Syrian ones are the Al Qeda fighters they treat in the Golan Heights and then send back to fight.

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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:06 am

So Israel cares for wounded even if they hate Isrel

Shocking that, where they show such compassion to injured people

Again how many refugees have headed for Israel?

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Post by HoratioTarr Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:09 am

Didge wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

How about Syrian ones?


Interesting point, how many have headed for Israel?

Then ask yourelf this riddle

http://www.jewishnews.co.uk/special%E2%80%88report-israels-medical-aid-across-enemy-lines/

Such a barbaric people eh?
Not

yes, I've read that they have treated Syrian soldiers.  So why not take in refugees?   You'd think they would seeing as they are on the border with Syria.
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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:11 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Didge wrote:


Interesting point, how many have headed for Israel?

Then ask yourelf this riddle

http://www.jewishnews.co.uk/special%E2%80%88report-israels-medical-aid-across-enemy-lines/

Such a barbaric people eh?
Not

yes, I've read that they have treated Syrian soldiers.  So why not take in refugees?   You'd think they would seeing as they are on the border with Syria.


Again what refugees have headed from Syria to Israel?

You need to show any have

Otherwise your question would be utterly irrelevant

Not only that, Syria has remained hostile to Israel

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Post by HoratioTarr Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:14 am

Last summer in the occupied Golan Heights, an Israeli military ambulance ferrying wounded fighters from across the border in Syria came under attack by Druze.
Rebel fighters had been inadvertently straying into Israeli-held territory for years. But these fighters in the ambulance were different: they were members of the Al Qaeda-linked Jabhat Al Nusra, which has been fighting Bashar Al Assad’s forces with varying degrees of success.
As the chaos of the Syrian civil war deepened, Al Nusra and other extremist groups have taken advantage of the security vacuum to rally support from external governments, reportedly including Turkey and the United States. Israel’s role in aiding these fighters, however, had been shrouded in secrecy until the episode on the Golan Heights.
As the Israeli ambulance sped towards a field hospital with two wounded Al Nusra fighters, it encountered a large group of Druze blocking the road. The Druze, a small Muslim sect who live in Syria, Israel and Lebanon, have been largely on the sidelines of the Syrian war but have remained loyal to Bashar Al Assad's government. Recently there has been sporadic fighting between the Druze and extremist groups like Al Nusra inside Syria.
In June, Druze in Syria alerted their brethren on the other side of the border that the Israeli army was treating Al Nusra fighters who had been wounded fighting the Druze. On the Golan Heights, Druze attacked the Israeli ambulance convoy with stones, eventually attacking the wounded fighters. When the dust settled, one Nusra fighter was killed and another was unconscious from the blows of the mob.
Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu then held a special meeting with Druze leaders to keep the situation under control. Despite the fact that this episode was reported extensively in local and foreign press, the Israeli army continues to deny its links to Al Nusra.
When Hizbollah operative Samir Kuntar was killed in an Israeli targeted assassination in Syria two weeks ago, Tel Aviv’s foothold in the conflict came under renewed inspection. Hafez Al Assad, who ruled Syria before his son, often joked that the Syrian-Israeli border in the Golan Heights was the quietest in the Middle East, but since the outbreak of civil war in 2011, things have steadily heated up.
While Israel has tried to keep its involvement in the Syrian war under wraps, there are several things we know about its participation. First and foremost, Israel has been carrying out air strikes against Hizbollah targets throughout Syria. Ostensibly, these air strikes are tailored to keep Hizbollah from obtaining Syrian chemical weapons.
In the 2006 Lebanon war, the Iranian-backed militia became the only Arab fighting force to unconditionally force Israel to retreat from Arab land occupied in the course of battle. Hizbollah has an extensive rockets cache that can reach any part of Israeli territory, as well as an elaborate network of underground bunkers in southern Lebanon that the Israeli military has never succeeded in fully destroying. It makes sense that Israel would want to keep Assad's chemical weapons out of Hizbollah's hands.
In Syria, Hizbollah has endured heavy losses; it is operating outside its normal strongholds in a country where it doesn’t have the support it enjoys in Lebanon, and the war appears to be wearing the group’s resources thin. In a sign of its dwindling human capital, the group has recently ratcheted up recruitment with promises of cash for new fighters.
For decades, Iran and its proxies have been Israel's primary enemies. Now that those groups are fighting a draining war in Syria, Israel is taking the opportunity to hit them with air strikes. An uneasy alliance between Israel and radical extremist groups fighting in the region – as last summer's episode on the Golan seemed to confirm – is not beyond comprehension.

http://www.thenational.ae/opinion/israels-exploitation-of-the-syrian-war-is-laid-bare
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Post by HoratioTarr Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:15 am

Didge wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

yes, I've read that they have treated Syrian soldiers.  So why not take in refugees?   You'd think they would seeing as they are on the border with Syria.


Again what refugees have headed from Syria to Israel?

You need to show any have

Otherwise your question would be utterly irrelevant

Not only that, Syria has remained hostile to Israel

You tell me.   Why aren't they heading there?
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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:18 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Didge wrote:


Again what refugees have headed from Syria to Israel?

You need to show any have

Otherwise your question would be utterly irrelevant

Not only that, Syria has remained hostile to Israel

You tell me.   Why aren't they heading there?


lol its like prove that something does not exist question

The onus is on you

I do not have to disprove a God exists, you have to prove one does, hence I do not need to say in regards to something you have shown no reason , evidence or means as to 

Antisemitism is rife in Syria. There is constant conflict at the border areas with Israel with Syrian fighting groups, so I guess there is many reasons, but do not ask me such a daft question you have absolutely no idea on yourself

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Post by HoratioTarr Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:19 am

Why don't they go to Saudi?
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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:19 am

HoratioTarr wrote:Why don't they go to Saudi?


Some do

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Post by HoratioTarr Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:20 am

Didge wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

You tell me.   Why aren't they heading there?


lol its like prove that something does not exist question

The onus is on you

I do not have to disprove a God exists, you have to prove one does, hence I do not need to say in regards to something you have shown no reason , evidence or means as to 

Antisemitism is rife in Syria. There is constant conflict at the border areas with Israel with Syrian fighting groups, so I guess there is many reasons, but do not ask me such a daft question you have absolutely no idea on yourself

Don't go all defensive.  I'm merely asking questions that you seem knowledgeable about.
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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:20 am

http://www.newsweek.com/gulf-states-are-taking-syrian-refugees-401131

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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:21 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Didge wrote:


lol its like prove that something does not exist question

The onus is on you

I do not have to disprove a God exists, you have to prove one does, hence I do not need to say in regards to something you have shown no reason , evidence or means as to 

Antisemitism is rife in Syria. There is constant conflict at the border areas with Israel with Syrian fighting groups, so I guess there is many reasons, but do not ask me such a daft question you have absolutely no idea on yourself

Don't go all defensive.  I'm merely asking questions that you seem knowledgeable about.


Seriously, your feeble attempts at emotive reactions are poor to say the least

I am laughing seriously at how poor your attempts to reason are

You have no idea if any syrian refugees have tried to go to Israel

Then ask me something you then further do notknow based off not knowing your first question if any have

Doh

lol

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Post by HoratioTarr Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:23 am

Didge wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:Why don't they go to Saudi?


Some do

According to some refugees, Saudi are not offering to help as much as Europe. You'd think they'd bend over backwards to extend help to fellow Muslim brothers, wouldn't you?
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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:23 am

One of the old ladies who had her house demolished.

Israel dismantles Dutch-funded West Bank farming project Ccv0P09UMAAZEhx

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Post by HoratioTarr Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:25 am

Didge wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

Don't go all defensive.  I'm merely asking questions that you seem knowledgeable about.


Seriously, your feeble attempts at emotive reactions are poor to say the least

I am laughing seriously at how poor your attempts to reason are

You have no idea if any syrian refugees have tried to go to Israel

Then ask me something you then further do notknow based off not knowing your first question if any have

Doh

lol

Well, you give the impression you know everything, so I'm asking.  If you don't like being questioned, that's fine.
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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:25 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Didge wrote:


Some do

According to some refugees, Saudi are not offering to help as much as Europe. You'd think they'd bend over backwards to extend help to fellow Muslim brothers, wouldn't you?


Why would they?

You seem to have some weird sterotype belief warped reasoning here based on countries as to who should help?

Again see the link

See we are back to you having issues with refugees coing to Europe

ust come out and say it, am not going to bite your head off for something I already know about you

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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:26 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Didge wrote:


Seriously, your feeble attempts at emotive reactions are poor to say the least

I am laughing seriously at how poor your attempts to reason are

You have no idea if any syrian refugees have tried to go to Israel

Then ask me something you then further do notknow based off not knowing your first question if any have

Doh

lol

Well, you give the impression you know everything, so I'm asking.  If you don't like being questioned, that's fine.


On history, I know loads, that was your first mistake

On reading peoples minds I have never met

Well am good at reading people when talking, but I have not mastered telepathy yet so please forgive me

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Post by HoratioTarr Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:29 am

Didge wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

According to some refugees, Saudi are not offering to help as much as Europe. You'd think they'd bend over backwards to extend help to fellow Muslim brothers, wouldn't you?


Why would they?

You seem to have some weird sterotype belief warped reasoning here based on countries as to who should help?

Again see the link

See we are back to you having issues with refugees coing to Europe

ust come out and say it, am not going to bite your head off for something I already know about you

You've got your grumpy trousers on, haven't you?    Wink

I think all countries should help.  It's a world crisis, isn't it?  

I've already stated my thoughts on mass immigration, pay attention.
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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:30 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Didge wrote:


Why would they?

You seem to have some weird sterotype belief warped reasoning here based on countries as to who should help?

Again see the link

See we are back to you having issues with refugees coing to Europe

ust come out and say it, am not going to bite your head off for something I already know about you

You've got your grumpy trousers on, haven't you?    Wink

I think all countries should help.  It's a world crisis, isn't it?  

I've already stated my thoughts on mass immigration, pay attention.


Hardly Nems

Again poor and very feeble attempt at emotive goading

Great you think all countries should help

Yes you have stated your issues on migrants, immigrants and refugees, I know

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Post by HoratioTarr Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:31 am

Didge wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

Well, you give the impression you know everything, so I'm asking.  If you don't like being questioned, that's fine.


On history, I know loads, that was your first mistake

On reading peoples minds I have never met

Well am good at reading people when talking, but I have not mastered telepathy yet so please forgive me

You haven't mastered control of your ego either.
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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:33 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Didge wrote:


On history, I know loads, that was your first mistake

On reading peoples minds I have never met

Well am good at reading people when talking, but I have not mastered telepathy yet so please forgive me

You haven't mastered control of your ego either.


Irony is lost I guess and humour as well to when sarcasm is initiated

Seriously Nem, I have known its you for ages lol


Night love

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Post by HoratioTarr Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:34 am

Didge wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

You haven't mastered control of your ego either.


Irony is lost I guess and humour as well to when sarcasm is initiated

Seriously Nem, I have known its you for ages lol


Night love

Who's Nem?
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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:40 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Didge wrote:


Irony is lost I guess and humour as well to when sarcasm is initiated

Seriously Nem, I have known its you for ages lol


Night love

Who's Nem?


Ah, well, you wouldn't be talking to me if you were Nems (who BTW has absolutely no interest in Palestine) and according to Didge,  Nems has saggy tits and no man has ever loved her for what she is. That's from a man who preaches love lol    Nems is just fine.

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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:43 am

Oh yes and he also sent her unsolicted posts on SF telling her he wanted to ram his dick up her ass and she would love it. Such a loving caring man isn't he lol

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Post by HoratioTarr Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:44 am

sassy wrote:Oh yes and he also sent her unsolicted posts on SF telling her he wanted to ram his dick up her ass and she would love it. Such a loving caring man isn't he lol

What's SF?
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Post by HoratioTarr Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:46 am

sassy wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

Who's Nem?


Ah, well, you wouldn't be talking to me if you were Nems (who BTW has absolutely no interest in Palestine) and according to Didge,  Nems has saggy tits and no man has ever loved her for what she is. That's from a man who preaches love lol    Nems is just fine.

I see.  So much for his being good at reading people.
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Post by HoratioTarr Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:47 am

sassy wrote:Oh yes and he also sent her unsolicted posts on SF telling her he wanted to ram his dick up her ass and she would love it. Such a loving caring man isn't he lol

Such a gent.  I take it he's on Bird's Eye meals for one then?
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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:49 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
sassy wrote:


Ah, well, you wouldn't be talking to me if you were Nems (who BTW has absolutely no interest in Palestine) and according to Didge,  Nems has saggy tits and no man has ever loved her for what she is. That's from a man who preaches love lol    Nems is just fine.

I see.  So much for his being good at reading people.


So much for him being good at anything.  He has a severe case, and I'm not joking, of narcissistic personality disorder.  He works in cycles, gets more and more wound up until he becomes totally out of control and very abusive and normally sexually abusive, then comes the arse licking stage, then he calms down a bit and pretends it was all an aberration.  I have him on ignore as it gets very wearying.

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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:50 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
sassy wrote:Oh yes and he also sent her unsolicted posts on SF telling her he wanted to ram his dick up her ass and she would love it. Such a loving caring man isn't he lol

Such a gent.  I take it he's on Bird's Eye meals for one then?


Well, can you see any woman in her right mind putting up with that?

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Post by HoratioTarr Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:53 am

sassy wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

Such a gent.  I take it he's on Bird's Eye meals for one then?


Well, can you see any woman in her right mind putting up with that?

They say there's someone for everyone.
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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:55 am

They do indeed.  I think she'd need a private line to an escape route though.

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Post by Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 4:35 am

HoratioTarr wrote:
Didge wrote:


Irony is lost I guess and humour as well to when sarcasm is initiated

Seriously Nem, I have known its you for ages lol


Night love

Who's Nem?

lol I see sassy is doing her best to stir again, that is what happens when someone hates so much they show their true colours and she flaps at her fabricated articles are easily exposed lol

It alsi proves how desperate she is to deflect this debate after I exposed yet more bull from one of her articles

Yes Nems has comentted on israel in the past, so sassy lies

She forgets they made up, lying again

Nems is who you are so stop trying to kid yourself, yes I have had some fights with you Nems and always made up, which sassy eludes to or how she has wished me dead and plenty of other nasty things all water under the bridge until sassy in her desperation tries to start and stir between posters

She certainly made up with sassy

Of course i wont do as sassy did and state the many things she has said about posters as you are already know anyway Nems

I mean you already know what she said about my late father which would eradicate two of my sisters and myself from existing, right?

You both thought it was hilarious

You are also not kidding anyone either, as its clear to me you are Nems

Nice to have you back


Of course you can see for yourself and who was the targets back then with sassy lol



http://www.newsfixboard.com/t3451-the-forum-family-x

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