Junior Doctors Pay Imposition

by Major Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:38 pm

First topic message reminder :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35548091

Why is it we give £billions away to forunuz but do not look after our own doctors of the future?

by HoratioTarr Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:28 pm

[quote="Raggamuffin"]So is the problem just a shortage of doctors? If they don't want to work weekends, of course there won't be many doctors on duty on those days. If they work weekends they'll want time off in the week. It should be possible to sort that out - after all, shops which are open 7 days a week manage it.

In my experience, it is really hard to find a doctor if you go to a hospital at weekends or bank holidays - they're just not around. [/quote]

You're more likely to die at the weekend.

by HoratioTarr Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:56 pm

[quote="Raggamuffin"]So is the problem just a shortage of doctors? If they don't want to work weekends, of course there won't be many doctors on duty on those days. If they work weekends they'll want time off in the week. It should be possible to sort that out - after all, shops which are open 7 days a week manage it.

In my experience, it is really hard to find a doctor if you go to a hospital at weekends or bank holidays - they're just not around. [/quote]

They shouldn't have a choice of whether they want to work weekends or not, as you say, people don't stop being ill because it's a Saturday. I get they might want more pay for Sundays, but the whole weekend? We'd all like double pay on a Saturday!

by Guest Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:41 am

This junior doctor gave a passionate tour de force on why the Junior Doctors' strike is not just about weekends.

Dr Lauren Gavaghan's blistering speech on James O'Brien's show has gone viral with over 750,000 people watching it.

She insists that the Junior Doctors dispute is not just about being forced to work weekends, but is vital for everyone in the UK.

She said: "This is not about just Junior Doctors. In my opinion, this is about a much wider political picture. We have to take into account the socio-political climate here.

"The NHS is 2012 with the Health and Social Care Act was actually devolved. The government was devolved of responsibility for it. The public don't know that at all.

"What the government are trying to do with this whole bringing care to weekends is not to increase emergency care, because we do that of course already.

"What they are trying to do is introduce elective non-urgent clinics into weekends. What that means is that when the NHS is sold off into private hands, which is no secret - the whole of Wiltshire Childrens Services has just been sold off to Virgin, the whole of Devon has just been sold off to Virgin, Sittingbourne in Kent just recently has been sold off.

"Let's face the facts. When the NHS is being sold off, private companies do not want our complex, long-term physical or mental health patients.
"What they want is lovely little elective, non-urgent clinics which are now in the weekends and they can buy off.

"That's what this is all about. I think to not take the bigger picture into account would be a mistake in my opinion."

http://www.lbc.co.uk/junior-doctor-perfectly-explains-why-you-should-back-them-124912

Video on link, if you want to know why they are striking, and why we should support them, and why they are the ONLY people who can save the NHS from the Tories privatisation plans LISTEN TO IT!

by Andy Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:19 am

There are a lot on here who advocate the privatisation of the NHS.
I wonder if they realise there are NO private A&E facilities in the UK.
Arterial bleed - you die.
Heart attack - you die.
Stroke - you die.
Appendicitis - you die.
Severe car./work accident - tough shit.
Jog on C(hUNT).
In America,Ben will confirm that private accident and emergency care costs a fortune.

by eddie Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:27 am

sassy wrote:

Unbelievable. This country is heading for meltdown

by Guest Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:58 am

And getting there very quickly, with all the help it needs from this government to do so.

by eddie Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:55 pm

Something is really brewing. It will take a decade or so, but something big is going to happen to shake up and wake up the sleeping public.

by Guest Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:22 pm

Yellow names on this letter Jeremy Hunt used say they never signed it

Junior Doctors Pay Imposition - Page 2 CbGO8FgXEAE9NjG

FRAUD!!!!!

by Syl Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:44 pm

sassy wrote:

That puts everything into perspective.
The years of dedication and training affords them the same pay as a casual shelf stacker.

by Guest Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:42 pm

This week 40,000 or so junior doctors have been on strike. Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt got fed up and imposed a new contract they don't like. Now, for most of us, it may seem silly to argue about working weekends - most of us do - or not getting paid what we'd like - most of us don't.

But that's not the half of it, and nor is it the end.

The reason Mr Hunt gives for the new contract is extra deaths in hospitals at weekends. But if you read the study he quotes, there aren't any. You are in fact LESS LIKELY TO DIE AT THE WEEKENDS IN A NHS HOSPITAL.

The research shows, instead, that if you are admitted at a weekend - ie, your first contact with acute medical services is outside the normal working week - you are more likely to die over the following 30 days.

The thing is, those 30 days include more weekdays than they do weekends.

And this is the really sticky bit. The report's authors say that patients admitted at the weekend are sicker to start with and have a higher chance of dying anyway. Half of all admissions then are emergencies, compared to just 29% during the week.

Similar studies have found exactly the same thing in health services worldwide. It's not a NHS-specific problem.

Weekends are when people drink. Weekends are when people have road accidents. Weekends are when more people go to A&E.

The study also shows 2.7m people are admitted on the average weekday, compared to 1m on Sundays. Due to the more complex cases, you could argue you need extra staff per patient to deal with them.

However, Mr Hunt is not suggesting any extra staff.

He is suggesting having FEWER doctors on weekdays.

Which would, logically, do little to cut increased deaths at the weekends and quite a lot to give us a few more during the week.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-hunt-war-nhs-its-7357642

by Raggamuffin Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:06 pm

Syl wrote:
sassy wrote:

That puts everything into perspective.
The years of dedication and training affords them the same pay as a casual shelf stacker.

There would be nothing casual about stacking shelves for 52 hours a week ...

by Major Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:51 pm

There is general unnecessary suffering at weekends as there are not enough doctors to look after patients, it is not all about dying at weekends.
Use our own money for our NHS, not to give to forunuz and avaricious politicians, who would you rather support?
Forunuz and or their embassies must pay for any treatment not covered by EHIC.

by nicko Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:10 pm

Just like to mention Combat Medics, they go into battlefield situations in extreme danger facing bullets, bombs and other threats. THEY DO THIS FOR ORDINARY SOLDIERS PAY, APPROS THERE RANK, and sometimes work 24hrs and more without a break.YOU may have read about a young female Doctor, who under enemy fire ran to help a young soldier who had been shot and was lying in great pain in the open, she treated his wound in situ and dragged him to safety still under heaver fire from al-quada. SHE didn't strike for more pay she did the job she was paid for!!!

by Major Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:23 pm

Yes nicho, believe it or not I know about that.

I want all our doctors to be looked after financially and safely so we are safe in their hands,
I want them to get any money which is given by this scabby government to outsiders or even more scabbier MPs.

by Syl Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:38 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Syl wrote:

That puts everything into perspective.
The years of dedication and training affords them the same pay as a casual shelf stacker.

There would be nothing casual about stacking shelves for 52 hours a week ...

Casual as in anyone could do the job and it wouldn't need years of dedication and training to do it.

by Major Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:10 pm

Syl wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

There would be nothing casual about stacking shelves for 52 hours a week ...

I would not be surprised if there is not a DEGREE course for shelf stacking. sarky lol

Why the name in hell are people kicking up the arse those who we will need even more in the coming years when we are older.

Up the junior doctuz.

Casual as in anyone could do the job and it wouldn't need years of dedication and training to do it.

by Raggamuffin Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:56 pm

Syl wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

There would be nothing casual about stacking shelves for 52 hours a week ...

Casual as in anyone could do the job and it wouldn't need years of dedication and training to do it.

That's not really what casual work is. Some people do actually have real jobs stacking shelves, and it's not "casual" for them -it's hard work and can be a bit soul-destroying if it's always the same. Not everyone could do shelf stacking anyway - it can be physically demanding.

by Syl Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:56 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Syl wrote:

Casual as in anyone could do the job and it wouldn't need years of dedication and training to do it.

That's not really what casual work is. Some people do actually have real jobs stacking shelves, and it's not "casual" for them -it's hard work and can be a bit soul-destroying if it's always the same. Not everyone could do shelf stacking anyway - it can be physically demanding.

We say 'casual work' as in say at busy times and shops take on more staff, maybe for the month leading up to Christmas for eg.
I wasn't implying the work was easy, I'm sure it's strenuous and boring, but you don't need any training in which to do it.

But my point was it's a joke that junior Dr's are paid the same (or less) than a person who has no qualifications in a job that anyone physically strong enough can do.

by Raggamuffin Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:01 pm

Syl wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

That's not really what casual work is. Some people do actually have real jobs stacking shelves, and it's not "casual" for them -it's hard work and can be a bit soul-destroying if it's always the same. Not everyone could do shelf stacking anyway - it can be physically demanding.

We say 'casual work' as in say at busy times and shops take on more staff, maybe for the month leading up to Christmas for eg.
I wasn't implying the work was easy, I'm sure it's strenuous and boring, but you don't need any training in which to do it.

But my point was it's a joke that junior Dr's are paid the same (or less) than a person who has no qualifications in a job that anyone physically strong enough can do.

If the job is only temporary, it's a stupid comparison anyway. I'd like to see the person who came up with that comparison do 52 hours of shelf stacking a week, year in, year out. I bet after a couple of weeks they'd be saying they'd rather be a doctor doing 56 hours a week for the same money.

I really don't think it's helpful to start comparing jobs in that manner - it's very patronising, and it gives the impression that people look down on retail staff.

by Syl Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:07 pm

I thought it was a good way of actually putting into perspective the low rate that Jnr Dr's actually work for.

by Raggamuffin Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:11 pm

Syl wrote:I thought it was a good way of actually putting into perspective the low rate that Jnr Dr's actually work for.

I don't. I thought it was stupid, provocative, and unfair to use people who do shelf stacking to prove a "point".

When people train to be doctors, surely they know it's not a 9-5 job. It's been common knowledge for years that they have to be on call a lot, and that they can't just go home if there are patients to be seen.

by Syl Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:28 pm

That's the point though, they don't go home. I doubt many doctors would leave a patient who needed their help just to miss the rush hour traffic.

More Dr's are needed, if the pay does not recognise the years of dedication that's needed to train them the standard will drop as the ones already trained will go elsewhere.

by Raggamuffin Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:40 pm

Syl wrote:That's the point though, they don't go home. I doubt many doctors would leave a patient who needed their help just to miss the rush hour traffic.

More Dr's are needed, if the pay does not recognise the years of dedication that's needed to train them the standard will drop as the ones already trained will go elsewhere.

They know they won't be able to home at a certain time before they embark on their career though. If they want a job with regular hours they shouldn't be doctors.

That silly quote was talking about a yearly salary. Not many people would last doing a shelf-stacking job for 52 hours every week for years, so it was a stupid comparison. Besides, a lot of people doing that kind of job do not get that amount of money. I just don't think it's fair to imply that anyone can do shelf stacking because it's such an easy job, and that people who do it don't deserve to be paid much.

These doctors generally say it's not about pay anyway, they say it's about patient safety. Either they're lying, or the pay is not relevant. If they really would prefer to stack baked beans, they should go and do it, and then see which job they prefer after a few weeks.

by Syl Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:00 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Syl wrote:That's the point though, they don't go home. I doubt many doctors would leave a patient who needed their help just to miss the rush hour traffic.

More Dr's are needed, if the pay does not recognise the years of dedication that's needed to train them the standard will drop as the ones already trained will go elsewhere.

They know they won't be able to home at a certain time before they embark on their career though. If they want a job with regular hours they shouldn't be doctors.

That silly quote was talking about a yearly salary. Not many people would last doing a shelf-stacking job for 52 hours every week for years, so it was a stupid comparison. Besides, a lot of people doing that kind of job do not get that amount of money. I just don't think it's fair to imply that anyone can do shelf stacking because it's such an easy job, and that people who do it don't deserve to be paid much.

These doctors generally say it's not about pay anyway, they say it's about patient safety. Either they're lying, or the pay is not relevant. If they really would prefer to stack baked beans, they should go and do it, and then see which job they prefer after a few weeks.

Whether it's about pay or not the hours some Dr's are expected to work are ridiculously long Rags.
Not sure if you have been treated in hospital by a Dr who looks dead on his feet....I have, and it's a scary notion to think that someone who has your health in their hands is knackered.

Another point, Dr's are hired out by private companies to the NHS for up to £120 ph....whilst junior Dr's who work for the NHS are earning a pittance, how can that be right?

by Raggamuffin Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:27 pm

Syl wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

They know they won't be able to home at a certain time before they embark on their career though. If they want a job with regular hours they shouldn't be doctors.

That silly quote was talking about a yearly salary. Not many people would last doing a shelf-stacking job for 52 hours every week for years, so it was a stupid comparison. Besides, a lot of people doing that kind of job do not get that amount of money. I just don't think it's fair to imply that anyone can do shelf stacking because it's such an easy job, and that people who do it don't deserve to be paid much.

These doctors generally say it's not about pay anyway, they say it's about patient safety. Either they're lying, or the pay is not relevant. If they really would prefer to stack baked beans, they should go and do it, and then see which job they prefer after a few weeks.

Whether it's about pay or not the hours some Dr's are expected to work are ridiculously long Rags.
Not sure if you have been treated in hospital by a Dr who looks dead on his feet....I have, and it's a scary notion to think that someone who has your health in their hands is knackered.

Another point, Dr's are hired out by private companies to the NHS for up to £120 ph....whilst junior Dr's who work for the NHS are earning a pittance, how can that be right?

I've already said that there should be more doctors. I don't think it's necessary for people to see a doctor at weekends for routine things, or for things that can wait, but as I said, I once really needed to see a doctor at a weekend and I had to travel miles to see one - fantastic doctor by the way, so I'm grateful. If they work at weekends, obviously they need time off in the week. I'm not convinced they need to be paid more for Saturdays. Lots of people work on Saturdays and they don't necessarily get paid more.

All I'm saying is that it's not right to be comparing the pay of doctors and people who stack shelves - it's not fair.

by Syl Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:44 pm

I agree routine visits should be avoided at weekend, unfortunately some people get taken ill and need to be hospitalised at weekend, others may be in hospital already. Statistics have shown that people don't get the same care in hospitals from Fri to Monday...and deaths are higher.

I don't see how it's demeaning for shelf stackers wages to be compared to Dr's wages tbh...and.if I was a shelf stacker I would agree.

by Raggamuffin Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:49 pm

Syl wrote:I agree routine visits should be avoided at weekend, unfortunately some people get taken ill and need to be hospitalised at weekend, others may be in hospital already. Statistics have shown that people don't get the same care in hospitals from Fri to Monday...and deaths are higher.

I don't see how it's demeaning for shelf stackers wages to be compared to Dr's wages tbh...and.if I was a shelf stacker I would agree.

I bet you wouldn't agree if you were shelf stacking for 52 hours a week.

by Raggamuffin Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:49 pm

Imagine if nobody did shelf stacking - you'd have nothing to buy in the supermarket.

by Victorismyhero Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:02 pm

almost any grunt with a few muscles can shelf stack, indeed it helps if you are a bit uhmmmm .......dim....with low expectations...

being a DR is to a large extent a "vocation"

not only do you have to have all the medical knowlege and skills
BUT
you have to have the skills of a priest, councillor etc to deal with giving out "bad news"
you are held occaountable by an understandably upset and therfore illogical group of pepole receiving bad news

"WHY , cant you save him???".."you are a Doctor".....

then there is dealing with the more pleasent but ultimately just as stressfull "miraculous recovery" when every one hails you as a hero....

No ragga, you CANT compare the two...

any monkey can shelf stack.......and we will never be short of those

thats not to say they shouldnt be paid whet they are worth....but so should doctors

perhaps unkonwingly you have hit of the biggest flaw in communisim and lefty politics....

who gets paid more .............the doctor or the dustman???

and why?

by Syl Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:02 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Syl wrote:I agree routine visits should be avoided at weekend, unfortunately some people get taken ill and need to be hospitalised at weekend, others may be in hospital already. Statistics have shown that people don't get the same care in hospitals from Fri to Monday...and deaths are higher.

I don't see how it's demeaning for shelf stackers wages to be compared to Dr's wages tbh...and.if I was a shelf stacker I would agree.

I bet you wouldn't agree if you were shelf stacking for 52 hours a week.

Yep I would. I have worked serving people in the past, I loved it, but I didn't fool myself I was saving the world.

If someone had pointed out that I didn't deserve the pay someone who had a vocation and trained for years for....then I would have agreed.

by Victorismyhero Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:04 pm

scuse my typos...

a large steak dinner...followed by a few large glasses of mavrodaphne sweet wine, courtesy of Mrs F....

nice ///but me head is spinning.... Laughing

by Syl Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:09 pm

Lord Foul wrote:scuse my typos...

a large steak dinner...followed by a few large glasses of mavrodaphne sweet wine, courtesy of Mrs F....

nice ///but me head is spinning....

It must be....you seem to have wandered into the wrong thread. Razz

by Victorismyhero Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:13 pm

really.....bit like changing rooms then....

hold your towel higher....no lower

oh god!!!!!!!!!

by Raggamuffin Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:20 pm

Lord Foul wrote:almost any grunt with a few muscles can shelf stack, indeed it helps if you are a bit uhmmmm .......dim....with low expectations...

being a DR is to a large extent a "vocation"

not only do you have to have all the medical knowlege and skills
BUT
you have to have the skills of a priest, councillor etc to deal with giving out "bad news"
you are held occaountable by an understandably upset and therfore illogical group of pepole receiving bad news

"WHY , cant you save him???".."you are a Doctor".....

then there is dealing with the more pleasent but ultimately just as stressfull "miraculous recovery" when every one hails you as a hero....

No ragga, you CANT compare the two...

any monkey can shelf stack.......and we will never be short of those

thats not to say they shouldnt be paid whet they are worth....but so should doctors

perhaps unkonwingly you have hit of the biggest flaw in communisim and lefty politics....

who gets paid more .............the doctor or the dustman???

and why?

That's what I said - you can't compare the two jobs.

It's pretty nasty to say those things about shelf stackers though. I bet you wouldn't last five minutes if you did it - you would need stamina and a tough but patient disposition. I also bet you wouldn't do it for a pittance.

by Victorismyhero Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:46 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:almost any grunt with a few muscles can shelf stack, indeed it helps if you are a bit uhmmmm .......dim....with low expectations...

being a DR is to a large extent a "vocation"

not only do you have to have all the medical knowlege and skills
BUT
you have to have the skills of a priest, councillor etc to deal with giving out "bad news"
you are held occaountable by an understandably upset and therfore illogical group of pepole receiving bad news

"WHY , cant you save him???".."you are a Doctor".....

then there is dealing with the more pleasent but ultimately just as stressfull "miraculous recovery" when every one hails you as a hero....

No ragga, you CANT compare the two...

any monkey can shelf stack.......and we will never be short of those

thats not to say they shouldnt be paid whet they are worth....but so should doctors

perhaps unkonwingly you have hit of the biggest flaw in communisim and lefty politics....

who gets paid more .............the doctor or the dustman???

and why?

That's what I said - you can't compare the two jobs.

It's pretty nasty to say those things about shelf stackers though. I bet you wouldn't last five minutes if you did it - you would need stamina and a tough but patient disposition. I also bet you wouldn't do it for a pittance.

I wouldt do it ...you are quite right...

I need something a bit more challenging thatn that
and you are also right ...i wouldnt do ANYTHING for a pittance...

as a senior electronics engineer I wouldnt consider less than £20/ per hour + a considerable benefits package and bonus
and (as I do only occaisionally and when I want to...(since I'm "retired")) I act as a "consultant engineer", i charge a minimum of £70 per hour plus travel and expenses.

If you want me as a carpenter I charge a "day rate " of £150

If you want me to act as design and build carpenter then its £200/day

alternatively I will quote you a fixed price per job...

a 20 foot by 15 foot hand built cedar conservatory will cost you in the region of 25,000 pounds...thats complete and ready for use, including glazing, electrics heating etc...

if you want something special like electronic shading and ventilation control...well thats by negotiation...

(but I DO do the whole job...including getting planning permission, building regs permits etc, hiring sparkies , brickies etc....)

Junior Doctors Pay Imposition - Page 2 3852033631

Junior Doctors Pay Imposition - Page 2 3852033631

I "worked" 5 months last year...and probably paid more in tax than you earn ragga...

not a brag... a fact....I have skills that folks want...and are prepared to pay for...

so NO ...I wouldnt shelf stack...It would bust my brain with utter boredom.....

but lets be realistic here ...there are plenty out there who dont have much of a brain to bust...its not necessarily their fault, its the lottery of life

when I was a teenager THEIR fate was either down the pit as a shovel monkey,/dustman/street sweeper
OR

in the local hosiery mill as "fluff bunny"

so not much changes...they should get a wage that allows them at least a "fair" standard of living

but someone who spends their early years studying, then goes on to a career saving lives and helping people in what sometimes is their darkest hour deserves more....much more

where does my income source sit in that...well i merely exploit peoples "aquisitiveness" and desire for something "special"....
from small trinkets at a few quid (which non the less are nice and folks like ...ask FTL and sassy....) to expensive but nice conservatories

by Raggamuffin Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:54 pm

I can't stand people who boast about how much they earn, or people who look down on those who do jobs they wouldn't "lower" themselves to do.

by Syl Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:55 pm

I thought he was showing off his CV and touting for work. Razz

by Guest Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:56 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

That's what I said - you can't compare the two jobs.

It's pretty nasty to say those things about shelf stackers though. I bet you wouldn't last five minutes if you did it - you would need stamina and a tough but patient disposition. I also bet you wouldn't do it for a pittance.

I wouldt do it ...you are quite right...

I need something a bit more challenging thatn that
and you are also right ...i wouldnt do ANYTHING for a pittance...

as a senior electronics engineer I wouldnt consider less than £20/ per hour + a considerable benefits package and bonus
and (as I do only occaisionally and when I want to...(since I'm "retired")) I act as a "consultant engineer", i charge a minimum of £70 per hour plus travel and expenses.

If you want me as a carpenter I charge a "day rate " of £150

If you want me to act as design and build carpenter then its £200/day

alternatively I will quote you a fixed price per job...

a 20 foot by 15 foot hand built cedar conservatory will cost you in the region of 25,000 pounds...thats complete and ready for use, including glazing, electrics heating etc...

if you want something special like electronic shading and ventilation control...well thats by negotiation...

(but I DO do the whole job...including getting planning permission, building regs permits etc, hiring sparkies , brickies etc....)

I "worked" 5 months last year...and probably paid more in tax than you earn ragga...

not a brag... a fact....I have skills that folks want...and are prepared to pay for...

so NO ...I wouldnt shelf stack...It would bust my brain with utter boredom.....

but lets be realistic here ...there are plenty out there who dont have much of a brain to bust...its not necessarily their fault, its the lottery of life

when I was a teenager THEIR fate was either down the pit as a shovel monkey,/dustman/street sweeper
OR

in the local hosiery mill as "fluff bunny"

so not much changes...they should get a wage that allows them at least a "fair" standard of living

but someone who spends their early years studying, then goes on to a career saving lives and helping people in what sometimes is their darkest hour deserves more....much more

where does my income source sit in that...well i merely exploit peoples "aquisitiveness" and desire for something "special"....
from small trinkets at a few quid (which non the less are nice and folks like ...ask FTL and sassy....) to expensive but nice conservatories

Sounds like you had a lovely Valentines Day Victor Junior Doctors Pay Imposition - Page 2 Hic_dr10

xxx

Raggamuffin I have bought a few things made by Victor and I've loved them all. Handmade and great quality I love you

x

by Raggamuffin Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:57 pm

Syl wrote:I thought he was showing off his CV and touting for work.

He's got no chance with me. After all, he pays more tax than I earn - allegedly. Razz

He was boasting about how much he earns - like a lot of men who are inadequate in other ways ...

by Raggamuffin Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:03 pm

feelthelove wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:

I wouldt do it ...you are quite right...

I need something a bit more challenging thatn that
and you are also right ...i wouldnt do ANYTHING for a pittance...

as a senior electronics engineer I wouldnt consider less than £20/ per hour + a considerable benefits package and bonus
and (as I do only occaisionally and when I want to...(since I'm "retired")) I act as a "consultant engineer", i charge a minimum of £70 per hour plus travel and expenses.

If you want me as a carpenter I charge a "day rate " of £150

If you want me to act as design and build carpenter then its £200/day

alternatively I will quote you a fixed price per job...

a 20 foot by 15 foot hand built cedar conservatory will cost you in the region of 25,000 pounds...thats complete and ready for use, including glazing, electrics heating etc...

if you want something special like electronic shading and ventilation control...well thats by negotiation...

(but I DO do the whole job...including getting planning permission, building regs permits etc, hiring sparkies , brickies etc....)

I "worked" 5 months last year...and probably paid more in tax than you earn ragga...

not a brag... a fact....I have skills that folks want...and are prepared to pay for...

so NO ...I wouldnt shelf stack...It would bust my brain with utter boredom.....

but lets be realistic here ...there are plenty out there who dont have much of a brain to bust...its not necessarily their fault, its the lottery of life

when I was a teenager THEIR fate was either down the pit as a shovel monkey,/dustman/street sweeper
OR

in the local hosiery mill as "fluff bunny"

so not much changes...they should get a wage that allows them at least a "fair" standard of living

but someone who spends their early years studying, then goes on to a career saving lives and helping people in what sometimes is their darkest hour deserves more....much more

where does my income source sit in that...well i merely exploit peoples "aquisitiveness" and desire for something "special"....
from small trinkets at a few quid (which non the less are nice and folks like ...ask FTL and sassy....) to expensive but nice conservatories

Sounds like you had a lovely Valentines Day Victor xxx

Raggamuffin I have bought a few things made by Victor and I've loved them all. Handmade and great quality x

I'm sure they're lovely FTL, and I have seen some on here. However, I'm afraid he spoilt his advert by looking down on others who he considers as lesser mortals.

by Syl Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:03 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Syl wrote:I thought he was showing off his CV and touting for work.

He's got no chance with me. After all, he pays more tax than I earn - allegedly.

He was boasting about how much he earns - like a lot of men who are inadequate in other ways ...

It did come across a bit like boasting. Laughing

My mum earned her money cleaning to bring us up single handed.....not because she was dim or had low expectations but because in the position she was in, given the cards she had been dealt, that was the best option....and she did a brilliant job.
Same as today, not everyone has the option to be a high achiever....but everyone who earns an honest living is of value.

by Raggamuffin Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:06 pm

Syl wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

He's got no chance with me. After all, he pays more tax than I earn - allegedly.

He was boasting about how much he earns - like a lot of men who are inadequate in other ways ...

It did come across a bit like boasting.

My mum earned her money cleaning to bring us up single handed.....not because she was dim or had low expectations but because in the position she was in, given the cards she had been dealt, that was the best option....and she did a brilliant job.
Same as today, not everyone has the option to be a high achiever....but everyone who earns an honest living is of value.

Perhaps Victor would like to backtrack wildly as he did imply that your mother was a bit dim.

I would never look down on someone the way he does just because they do a job which he thinks means they're a bit thick.

I do look down on "jobs" like prostitution, but they earn quite a lot anyway. Cool

by Syl Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:12 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Syl wrote:

It did come across a bit like boasting.

My mum earned her money cleaning to bring us up single handed.....not because she was dim or had low expectations but because in the position she was in, given the cards she had been dealt, that was the best option....and she did a brilliant job.
Same as today, not everyone has the option to be a high achiever....but everyone who earns an honest living is of value.

Perhaps Victor would like to backtrack wildly as he did imply that your mother was a bit dim.

I would never look down on someone the way he does just because they do a job which he thinks means they're a bit thick.

I do look down on "jobs" like prostitution, but they earn quite a lot anyway.

Well my mum never shelf stacked so I don't think he did.

I knew some prostitutes when I worked in town, dim they definitely were not.

by Victorismyhero Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:14 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Syl wrote:I thought he was showing off his CV and touting for work.

He's got no chance with me. After all, he pays more tax than I earn - allegedly.

He was boasting about how much he earns - like a lot of men who are inadequate in other ways ...

no ragga...I was pointing exactly WHY I wouldnt shelf stack

the fact, whether you like it or not, is that there are a fair number of folks who just are NOT going to ever be capable of much more, for any number of reasons, that doesnt alter the fact that THEY should get a "fair wage" that allows a reasonable minimum standard of living (I.E a roof over their heads, food in thier bellies, decent clothes on their backs and a decent amount over for the "pleasentries of life") In fact THAT should be the birthright of everyone...as I have said before.....even the unemployed have a right to at least the first 3 and arguably at least some of the fourth.

My earning capacity is down to study, skills and an ability to adapt my skills....and, it has to be said 5 years of lost earning potential during my study years....

so......

by Raggamuffin Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:18 pm

Syl wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Perhaps Victor would like to backtrack wildly as he did imply that your mother was a bit dim.

I would never look down on someone the way he does just because they do a job which he thinks means they're a bit thick.

I do look down on "jobs" like prostitution, but they earn quite a lot anyway.

Well my mum never shelf stacked so I don't think he did.

I knew some prostitutes when I worked in town, dim they definitely were not.

He's not just literally talking about shelf stackers though, he means anyone who does a job for which they don't require intelligence in his eyes.

I didn't say prostitutes are dim, I said I look down on the "job" they do.

by Raggamuffin Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:21 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

He's got no chance with me. After all, he pays more tax than I earn - allegedly.

He was boasting about how much he earns - like a lot of men who are inadequate in other ways ...

no ragga...I was pointing exactly WHY I wouldnt shelf stack

the fact, whether you like it or not, is that there are a fair number of folks who just are NOT going to ever be capable of much more, for any number of reasons, that doesnt alter the fact that THEY should get a "fair wage" that allows a reasonable minimum standard of living (I.E a roof over their heads, food in thier bellies, decent clothes on their backs and a decent amount over for the "pleasentries of life") In fact THAT should be the birthright of everyone...as I have said before.....even the unemployed have a right to at least the first 3 and arguably at least some of the fourth.

My earning capacity is down to study, skills and an ability to adapt my skills....and, it has to be said 5 years of lost earning potential during my study years....

so......

FFS, stop being so nasty. People who do shelf stacking aren't inferior to you, or less intelligent. I doubt that anyone would manage to do it for a long time without going mad, but I take my hat off to anyone who can.

If we're talking about "lost years" because of study, I'm owed for at least four years - where's my money? Junior Doctors Pay Imposition - Page 2 3852033631

by Syl Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:22 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Syl wrote:

Well my mum never shelf stacked so I don't think he did.

I knew some prostitutes when I worked in town, dim they definitely were not.

He's not just literally talking about shelf stackers though, he means anyone who does a job for which they don't require intelligence in his eyes.

I didn't say prostitutes are dim, I said I look down on the "job" they do.

They provide a service. The ones I knew were business women, worked for themselves and knew exactly what they were doing.
Many prostitutes are drug addled and forced to work the job...they are to be pitied more than looked down on.

by Raggamuffin Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:26 pm

Syl wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

He's not just literally talking about shelf stackers though, he means anyone who does a job for which they don't require intelligence in his eyes.

I didn't say prostitutes are dim, I said I look down on the "job" they do.

They provide a service. The ones I knew were business women, worked for themselves and knew exactly what they were doing.
Many prostitutes are drug addled and forced to work the job...they are to be pitied more than looked down on.

I don't pity them.

by Guest Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:27 pm

I am fortunate and have worked for the same company for 26 years in May. I've worked hard and earn a good salary. I have a professional office based job.

However, when I was younger I've worked everything from picking beans in fields, to cooking and waitressing, to retail work including shelf stacking, serving petrol and checking oil and water.

I can honestly say that I would do whatever I had to do to get by if I lost my job. I think as you get older you have more choices available to you. Victor is retired and is able to pick and choose what work he accepts as he's not as dependent on the income or have a family to support.

In 3 years time I hope to be in a similar position that if I were to be made redundant I could afford to take a lower paid job.

I've enjoyed all the jobs I've had, they all have their positives Junior Doctors Pay Imposition - Page 2 Thumbs15

Junior Doctors Pay Imposition - Page 2 Thumbs15

by Victorismyhero Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:28 pm

Syl wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Perhaps Victor would like to backtrack wildly as he did imply that your mother was a bit dim.

I would never look down on someone the way he does just because they do a job which he thinks means they're a bit thick.

I do look down on "jobs" like prostitution, but they earn quite a lot anyway.

Well my mum never shelf stacked so I don't think he did.

I knew some prostitutes when I worked in town, dim they definitely were not.

actually, Ragga makes an important point here, the fact that there are a huge number of folks who simply cannot realistically, do anything much more than the simplest of jobs does tend to overshadow the fact that there are also a fair number of folks even today who are doing menial jobs...simply becasue they have never "got the break" needed to do something better.

you can have all the qualifications in the world, you can have an IQ beyond genius....and end up shovelling shit...Now lets be fair here...if shovelling shit is whats needed then that is an "honourable profession" and you are wrong ragga...I DONT "look down on" those folks...but I see reality when its stares you in the face....
BUT it does leave a sense of "unease" , of something wrong, when we have a society that fails to reward endeavour, or restricts chances for people to improve thei lot.

ask yo8ur self why was Slys mum cleaning..if she was capable of better...

I bet I know.....

society....and how it treated women (in general, let alone from "working class backgrounds") Her mum would have still been cleaning if she was capable of getting a first in astrophysics

it was a wrong then, and to a large extent it is STILL a wrong today....

as to the prostitutes...it is true Syl....they are rarely dim (at least the independant ones) ...they cant afford to be....(and thats ANOTHER "socialproblem" I have issues with...FGS LEGALISE prostitution...jail pimps and such like, introduce regualr medical checks and provide the necessary education/support these girls need...grrrrrrrr)

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