The History of God and Other Religious Myths

First topic message reminder :

Background

Tectonic forces began splitting east Africa apart 25 million years ago resulting in today's Great Rift Valley. The rainforest flourished in the east but the western side dried giving way to vast savannah grasslands. Chimpanzees in the west were eventually forced out of the trees to search for food on the ground beginning a 9 million year evolutionary trek ending in humanity. After 5 million years Australopithecus afarensis developed DNA mutations of the feet, toes, legs and pelvis enabling them to walk upright. About 1.5 million years ago Homo erectus, a prehuman ancestor with a larger brain, migrated out of Africa to the Asian continent before going extinct. Geneticist Spencer Wells estimates that Homo sapiens, fully modern-day humans, evolved 60,000 to 90,000 years ago. Two of our earliest intellectual creations were art and religion.

Early Sacred Art

Cave art suggests that early humans conceived of a spiritual realm. These first humans painted and engraved animals they feared (lions, rhinos, etc.) and revered (deer, bison, etc.) on the walls of Altamira in Spain 40,000 years ago and Chauvet in France 32,000 years ago. Looking up at the art produces the same sense of awe you feel from the majesty of a Gothic cathedral. Caverns with drawings lay deep inside the caves indicating they were not used for habitation but possibly to hold ceremonies with devout rituals to insure or celebrate the success of the hunt.
The 35,000 year-old ivory figurines of Venus of Hohle Fels (fertility icon) and Lion-Man of Hohlenstein Stadel (lion head on man's body) were found in caves in Germany. They are symbols of a rudimentary belief in a spirit world. Lion-Man effigies were found in both caves (above) indicating the existence of a cult. Other statuettes were buried with the dead. (Were devotional services held at the death of a loved one or tribal leader?)
In the Fertile Crescent valley of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers in southern Turkey 11,600 years ago, nomad hunter-gatherers built circular one-room halls at Gobekli Tepe. Surreal depictions of animals and humans with elongated bodies were carved as bas reliefs on 16-ton, 18-foot-tall smooth limestone pillars that held up the roof. The secret society of elders may have used these sanctums for meetings to conduct sacred rites of passage.

Birth of Religion

Archaeologists estimate there were 15,000 people living in Western Europe at the end of the last Ice Age, 20,000 years ago. There were approximately 500 different groups each with about 30 extended family members. A single elder with experience, intelligence, and strength could coordinate and harmonize the efforts and activities of his small clan. As climate warmed, these hunter-gatherers migrated into farming settlements of 100s, then 1000's, then tens of thousands. One-man rule was no longer adequate to manage the complex relationships of a large community. According to National Geographic magazine (June 2011, page 41), religion arose in one of two ways:

Religion preceded Farming: "People came together for rituals creating the need to grow food for large groups gathering near sacred sites." The mere existence of Gobekli Tepe supports this view since there is no evidence of human settlements nearby.

Farming preceded Religion: "After people began settling in villages and farming, religion arose to promote social cooperation." Michael Shermer prefers this second scenario: "Leaders developed two new institutions to organize and control the affairs of the masses--government with an all-powerful military police and religion with all-powerful gods and goddesses."

First Approximations

Great intelligence and imagination evolved to set us humans apart from the rest of the animal kingdom. These traits enable us to ponder the answers to two philosophical questions: how the universe works and our place in it. Finding the answers would satisfy our intellectual curiosity, bolster our emotional self-confidence, and insure our basic physical necessities of food, clothing and shelter. For answers we observed Nature: the plants and animals that nourished us, the forces (lightning, volcanoes, and floods) that devastated us, and the benevolence (the sun and stars) that helped us. At this early time our only technology was simple math/geometry and the naked eye. Our measurements were pretty good--good enough to build temples and pyramids. But our conclusions were pretty bad: the Earth was flat (not round) and the Earth was stationary (The Sun circled Earth.). There were huge gaps in our knowledge so we played make-believe: we projected our own emotions and motives onto Nature creating human-like persona to explain/understand how Nature works. (This is called the anthropomorphic principle.) In hindsight we confused and thus blended Nature with the Super-Natural, turning a purely intellectual inquiry into a religious one.
People all around the globe were trying to figure out the answers to the two questions, but all failed miserably.

3000 BC Southern England: Circular wooden structures predate the megaliths erected 2200-2400 BC at Stonehenge--an astronomical observatory of the rising and setting sun. While precise measurements may have helped the ancients plan their farming to maximize harvests, G. T. Meaden suggests the site was a place to worship the sun.

1500 BC Iraq (ancient Babylon): Astrology was devised to determine the destiny of a person from the positions of the star constellations at the time of birth.

500 BC Germany/Scandinavia: The god Thor swung his war hammer to produce lightning and thunder to punish human misdeeds.

500 AD Southern Peru: The Nazca lines extend from the plain by the ocean miles into the mountains. Using precisely placed rocks, large outlines of animals mirroring the star constellations were drawn but could only be viewed and appreciated by someone (or some god) positioned hundreds of feet in the air above. Could the lines and animals contain spiritual significance?

1200 AD Hawaii: Hawaiians thought their goddess Pele made the Kilauea volcano erupt when she was angered by their actions.

1300 AD Central Mexico: The Aztecs believed the sun had died four times and now was on its fifth and possibly last life cycle. To ensure the sun remained alive, they sacrificed slaves by cutting out their beating hearts and offering them to their gods. They slaughtered thousands on a single day.

These first approximations of reality were made with a minimum of technology resulting in many bizarre and some brutal religious misinterpretations. The divine nature of these early concepts could not be disproved so the leaders of society could use them to support the authority of religious institutions. Starting 400 years ago science through technology provided the valid insight of reality we enjoy today even though some of these illusory religious concepts persist.

History of God and Other Religious Myths--Middle East

After Gobekli Tepe there is a gap of 9,000 years until the advent of writing provides a glimpse of religious doctrine in the Middle East--religious practices were passed down from generation to generation via word-of-mouth and repetition of rituals. When writing first appeared in Sumer (cuneiform, 3000 BC) and Egypt (hieroglyphs, 2300 BC), religious concepts were highly developed thus we cannot be certain of the time and place of the rise of religious ideas but we can draw some logical conclusions. The main point of this article is that there is an unbroken historical timeline showing that spirituality was first conceived by Ice-Age cavemen 35,000 years ago, then developed by nomad hunter-gatherers 10,000 years ago and (presented below) embellished by prehistoric pagans 5,000 years ago--three groups that have no credibility for establishing the reality of god or any spiritual belief.

In Secret Origins of the Bible (pages 6-39) Tim Callahan presents the Babylonian, Greek and Hebrew religious stories of the creation of the universe. His research shows that all three stories contain four basic concepts:

1. Supreme Being: a supernatural all-powerful god, gods and goddesses.
   
2. Eternal Water: seas, rivers, and rain did not have to be created but always existed.
   
3. Chaos: the natural order of the pre-universe was disorder.
   
4. Humans: god created humans out of earth, soil, or clay.
   
   

The similarity in the three creation myths is no coincidence. The three cultures resided within a 500 mile radius: they knew each other well through trade and war. Their creation stories are similar. Lacking hard evidence these cultures borrowed and copied the best of each other's ideas in an attempt to understand their own origin. Callahan estimates that the Babylonian myth was written 1600-2300 BC; that the Greek myth dates from 800-1000 BC: and that the Hebrew Genesis story was written 600-900 BC. Since the Babylonian story is the oldest we might conclude it is the source of the other two. But concurrent with the Babylonian writings there is a pagan superstition containing all four concepts that may be the original source for the other three--and that is the Egyptian creation myth. The ancient Egyptian empire is the oldest, richest, mightiest, most productive and longest-lived superpower in recorded history, lasting from 3100-332 BC. Starting in 2300 BC with pharaoh Unis, the Egyptians drew and chiseled the beliefs of their creation myth, the famous "pyramid texts," on the stone walls of their pharaohs' tombs, displaying the first truly religious scriptures before writing them down on papyrus in their Book of the Dead.

Egyptian Creation Myth

In the beginning Amun created himself above the eternal waters of Chaos. The Egyptians believed the Mediterranean Sea and Nile River always existed and did not have to be created. When Amun masturbated where his semen fell became land: thus originated the myth of the Supreme Being or all-powerful god. Amun created many other gods and goddesses, important among them was his sister Nut, goddess of the Sky. Nut bent over the land with her feet on the east side of the Nile and her hands on the west side. She raised her nude body high up with her elongated arms and legs, and formed the sky. Stars shone from her bare torso at night. The Egyptians believed that at sunset the sun vanished because Nut swallowed it. During the night it passed through her digestive tract and in the morning she excreted it at sunrise allowing the sun to traverse the sky again.

Egyptian Myth of Human Creation

There are two parts to the myth of human creation: how the pharaoh was created, and how ordinary people were created.

Creation of Pharaoh
Amun had sexual relations with many of his sisters and produced second and third generation deities. Important among these were two brothers, Set and Osiris, and their sister Isis. Set murdered Osiris, cut his body into pieces, and threw them away in the desert. Wherever a body part landed, an oasis was created. Isis gathered the pieces of Osiris and put his body back together. She turned herself into a bird, and flapping her wings she resuscitated him back to life but (in one version of the story) he could live for only one day on Earth; thus originated the Resurrection myth. The Egyptians drew and chiseled on the walls of their temples the story of how Osiris impregnated Isis, who gave birth to a son Horus who was part human and part divine; thus originated the myth of the Virgin Birth. The pyramids were tombs for the pharaohs. The Egyptians became excellent pyramid builders designing passages inside leading upwards and downwards. One small passage (4 inches by 4 inches) from the chamber holding the pharaoh's body led diagonally up and out of the pyramid so the pharaoh's soul could travel up to the sky and become a new star; thus originated the myth of Heaven. Osiris ruled the afterlife and sat in judgement of humans after they died. The Egyptians developed mummification since they believed that the soul ceased to exist if the body decayed leaving only the skeleton; thus originated the myth of the Soul and the Accountability of humans to god in the Afterlife (heaven and hell). Horus redeemed Osiris by killing Set and became pharaoh ruling over the Egyptian people. Generation after generation Horus-Pharaoh married one of his sisters and their first born son became pharaoh, part human and part divine. The Egyptians believed in the tri-part unit of three gods: God the Father, God the Son and Goddess the Sister-Wife-Mother; thus originated the myth of the Trinity. Certain numbers (such as three, seven, nine and twelve) were important to the Egyptians. The number twelve was especially important because they measured time by this number: 12 hours of day, 12 hours of night, and 12 months of the year (30 days in each month with 5 or 6 holidays to balance out the year).

Creation of Ordinary Humans
Ordinary humans were created when the god Ptah took clay from the ground and molded it into human form on a potter's wheel. Ptah used an ankh to breathe life into humans through their nostrils.

Borrowed Ideas

The ancient Egyptians formulated four basic religious concepts: supernatural Supreme Being, eternal waters, pre-universe of chaos, and human creation from earth. Having no better insight, ancient cultures arising after or concurrently with the Egyptians borrowed these ideas and made them central to their ethnic religion. But peripheral concepts were borrowed too.

The Greeks
The Greeks borrowed the Egyptian number twelve for their counsel of twelve gods on Mount Olympus and devised a story about the twelve labors of Heracles. Heracles was part human and part divine by a virgin birth, having the god Zeus as father and a human, Alcmena, as mother. The Greeks were the only culture to incorporate incest into their religion: Kronos and Rhea were brother and sister--and husband and wife--who had children, Zeus and Hera, who married and produced offspring.

The Hebrews
The Hebrews borrowed the Egyptian number twelve for their twelve Tribes of Israel. Cain murdering Abel is reminiscent of Set killing Osiris. They also copied several ideas from the Babylonians.

1. Creation Myth. There were six generations of Babylonian giants: the sun and moon were created during the fourth generation and humans were created during the sixth generation. In the Hebrew Genesis story, the sun and moon were created on the fourth day and humans were created on the sixth day.
   
2. The Hebrews copied two Babylonian stories to describe their prophet Moses:
   a. Sargon was born of humble birth. His mother put him in a basket and floated him down the river. The queen of Babylon rescued him and raised him in her household. Later he became king.
   b. The Babylonian king Hammurabi went up into the mountains and received the laws of his code from God.
   
3. The flood and ark stories come from ancient Babylonian mythology 1000 years before Noah.
   
   

The Christians
The Christians appropriated several Egyptian myths into their religion: the number twelve for the Apostles of Jesus; the Osiris resurrection myth for Jesus; the Egyptian trinity was modified into God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost; the duality of Horus-Pharaoh for Jesus being part human and part divine; and Isis' virgin birth (or a Greek version) for Mary.
The Christians also borrowed from the Hebrews, adopting their entire bible (Tanakh) as the Old Testament and claiming Jesus was a direct descendant in the lineage of the House of David.

The Muslims
By the time Islam arose 622 AD, the Egyptian, Babylonian and Greek religions had vanished with the military destruction of their empires. Christianity and Judaism were well-defined, intertwined and central to the powerful Roman/Byzantine Empire headquartered in Constantinople (Istanbul). While Muslims had Arab precedents, they adopted the core beliefs of Christianity and Judaism: one god, the soul, heaven and hell.
The Hojjatieh sect of Shia Islam borrowed the Egyptian number twelve for their apocalyptic Twelfth Imam. The Muslims appropriated the Jewish founder Abraham as their patriarch and recognized Jesus as a prophet but not the divine son of God. The Muslims borrowed the Jewish/Christian messenger angel Gabriel saying he whispered the words of the Koran into Muhammad's ear.

Summary

The ancient Hebrew religious thinkers and leaders accepted as fact the Egyptian myths of a Supreme Being and a human soul because they were intellectually the smartest common sense answers, and emotionally the most optimistic motivators of the time. Since the Hebrews established their religion 2000 years after the Egyptians, the Hebrews were more realistically grounded: they eliminated the pantheon of gods, the animals and the pornography, and developed the concept of one omnipotent, omniscient god. The Muslims followed their example believing in just one god while the Christians held on to the ancient Egyptian concept of the Trinity in modified form. The prehistoric pagans of 5,000-year-ago Egypt borrowed their basic idea of a spirit world from 10,000-year-ago hunter-gatherers who in turn inherited it from 35,000-year-ago cavemen, preparing ancient Hebrews, Christians and Muslims to mistakenly perceive many natural events as miraculous happenings. With so many borrowed ideas (from cavemen, hunter-gatherers, Babylonians, Egyptians), and so many misinterpretations, Genesis, the Gospels, and the Koran, cannot be considered the word of god. That is the history of the idea of god and other religious beliefs.

Conclusion

Today nobody would believe in the Egyptian religion because it contradicts what we understand about the world around us: gods don't swallow the sun and birds can't bring anything back to life. These blatant misinterpretations of Nature discredit the validity of the pagans' core Super-Natural beliefs: a Supreme Being, a human soul, and heaven and hell. If they could be so wrong about the obvious, how could they be right about the obscure? These four Egyptian supernatural beliefs are as frivolous as the Babylonian giants, and acquire substance in only one context: the weird, imaginary Egyptian religion. All of the Egyptians' fanciful beliefs are just fuzzy thinking; to believe in something that science cannot verify to exist runs the risk of believing in nothing at all. Over the last 400 years as science explained the mysteries of the universe, the mysticism of religion should have declined. As we figured out the mechanisms of Nature, faith in Super-Natural miracle should have declined. As human self-confidence grew through science and technology, reliance on prayer should have declined. As modern scientific insight made more and more sense out of the universe (with quantum mechanics, Einstein's relativity, the Big Bang, evolution, and our expanding universe), all ancient religious beliefs should have become obsolete because they are no longer needed to explain our universe, they are no longer needed to define us humans, they just no longer make sense. Yet curiously people today do believe in the four superstitions of religion: god, soul, heaven, and hell. Apparently their origin has been erased by time. Would modern day Jews, Christians and Muslims discontinue belief in these four superstitions if they realized their dubious origin: Ice-Age cavemen, wandering hunter-gatherers and pagans? Or is faith an unreasonable emotion?




http://infidels.org/kiosk/article/the-history-of-god-and-other-religious-myths-907.html

---

Except Kirk, and he changed the conditions of the test.

Your questions were no kobayashi manu.

No just Kirk cheated by changing the program to win

In this you cannot if you answer the actual question

Fair play to Rags, she knew not to answer, because if she did, she would come out always as weak willed.
Its a no win scenario, you either accept defeat and chose weak willed, or you chose strong willed by answering and I will state I have manipulated you into believing you are strong willed and thus by manipulating you, then you are actually weak willed


Thus Rags is actually very strong willed, but I knew that as she is ultra defensive over religion, it actually really means loads to her.

That I respect.

And then there is the one where you are so weak willed you sit on line as a guest desperate for an answer.  Go to bed Didge lol   Your little green marker is sat there still.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Eilzel wrote:Raggs, above you claimed you are not misguided. By default then you are claiming Zack (and any Muslim), and anyone who doesn't follow your branch of Christianity, IS misguided. You understand that don't you?

Do I understand that? Do you think I've five years old or something? Of course I understand what you mean, but I would not tell Zack he was misguided, or imply that he was a fool to have a different belief to me. I have to say that Zack has not criticised Christians on here or said that they are wrong in any way. Perhaps many people with religious faith are a lot more tolerant and less judgemental than those who do not.

Well said

Now sassy you are weak willed because you did try to answer even if not making the answer anything to do with it.

Now you think you can manipulate me, you cannot because I will go when I want to.

A weak willed person will never admit they are weak willed, because they are always manipulated. A person who admits they are weaked will is no longer weak willed, they are in between strong willed and weak willed. They are thus not always manipulated and hence they can not be classed strong willed or weak willed.

Hence by answering the question you have to be weaked willed, because a strong person has no need to answer as rags did, as only a weak willed person would ever answer the question, as they will always have been manipulated

Logic clearly is not one of your strong points sassy

Lol, it was that easy to reel you in.  Poor Didge.    You see, I didn't answer any question, I played to your weakness in sitting there.  Owned sunshine, now off to bye byes you go.

To help you understandd what you never did understand sassy

You just failed psychological kobayashi maru number 2 sassy

Kobu dasher what now?

sassy wrote:Lol, it was that easy to reel you in.  Poor Didge.    You see, I didn't answer any question, I played to your weakness in sitting there.  Owned sunshine, now off to bye byes you go.

That is showing emotions sassy, your second failing,psychological kobayashi maru number 2

Didgerdoo think he's a Star Trek psychologist, just another of his delusions, his pills will help him if he takes them lol

eddie wrote:Kobu dasher what now?

Its placing someone in a no win situation Eddie

Like smellys racist who will you save when you can only save one scenario, accept this is flawless in undestanding weak willed people from strong willed

rags passed the test, sassy did not

sassy wrote:Didgerdoo think he's a Star Trek psychologist, just another of his delusions, his pills will help him if he takes them lol

Emotive again, proving very weak willed in regards tothe seond psychological kobayashi maru

I'll have a go as I love a hypothetical question

And poor Didge is so obsessed he sat online as a guest and got reeled in, is now trying to save face.  It ain't gonna work.    He'll get to test 600 soon, it will keep his little mind amused until Mummy comes to turn the light out lol

eddie wrote:I'll have a go as I love a hypothetical question

lol I have given the answer though Eddie

Its back on the previous page last post

It actually proves rags is string willed as she did not answer

I've read back and can't find the test?

sassy wrote:And poor Didge is so obsessed he sat online as a guest and got reeled in, is now trying to save face.  It ain't gonna work.    He'll get to test 600 soon, it will keep his little mind amused until Mummy comes to turn the light out lol

You just failed again sassy, as you are still emotive

What has my mother got to do with you being weak willed?

eddie wrote:I've read back and can't find the test?

Exactly, he never put any question to me in the first place, and has now convinced himself that he is a psychologist on the good ship Star Trek.  You couldn't make it up lol

eddie wrote:I've read back and can't find the test?

Rags was claiming Stardesk was arrogant, claiming to ask questions on religion was, even though I pointed out religious people do the same all the time converting, she said i would never convince her he3 was not ar3r3ogant, so I said


He does not need to convince you, that is impossible, you are already convinced of religion. Only you yourself would have to allow doubt to setin. Which I doubt would be possible, if you are as strong willed as you claim to be. There is no chance of being manipulated and thus no harm of Stardesk expressing his views

Now either you are a strong willed woman and can take anything thrown your way, or you are weak willed and thus easily manipulated?

What ever way you look at this, its you having the problem, not stardesk

Didge wrote:

sassy wrote:And poor Didge is so obsessed he sat online as a guest and got reeled in, is now trying to save face.  It ain't gonna work.    He'll get to test 600 soon, it will keep his little mind amused until Mummy comes to turn the light out lol

You just failed again sassy, as you are still emotive

What has my mother got to do with you being weak willed?

Oh so she does tuck you in then! 

sassy wrote:

eddie wrote:I've read back and can't find the test?

Exactly, he never put any question to me in the first place, and has now convinced himself that he is a psychologist on the good ship Star Trek.  You couldn't make it up lol

You failed because you try to answer a que3s3tion that was not directed at you, hence the second failure.

You were manipulated twice, because you are so emotive

sassy wrote:

Didge wrote:


You just failed again sassy, as you are still emotive

What has my mother got to do with you being weak willed?

Oh so she does tuck you in then! 

Well she is in Ireland, and what would be wrong with any mother coming into say goodnight to their sons or daughters?

Do you think you are to old for that Sassy

Tad difficult mind she is in Ireland, but by the smiles you are so far gone you fail to realise how much you have3 been manipulated

Here's my truthful answer so I don't know what that makes me:

If I truly believed in something, I would still always listen to other opinions because I'm a firm believer that there really isn't a truth, or moreover, truth is ever-changing.
My truth today, may totally change in the blink of an eye, as truth is only based on the information you have NOW and new information can emerge.
So, in a nutshell, the only time I'd know something to be true, is on my deathbed as I die.

eddie wrote:Here's my truthful answer so I don't know what that makes me:

If I truly believed in something, I would still always listen to other opinions because I'm a firm believer that there really isn't a truth, or moreover, truth is ever-changing.
My truth today, may totally change in the blink of an eye, as truth is only based on the information you have NOW and new information can emerge.
So, in a nutshell, the only time I'd know something to be true, is on my deathbed as I die.

Which makes you neither weak or strong willed Eddie, you are somewhere in between, which is what most people are.
Rags on the other hand is actually very strong willed which is not uncommon for those strong in faith.

I'm too changeable to be strong-willed I think.
Look how I am on here. Some times I am quite forceful and other times I'cant be arsed.

I tend to live on my moods and somewhere in mid-air lol

Dear Abby,

Really worried about Didge, he thinks people answer questions that he hasn't put and then thinks he has manipulated them when they don't anwer the question but he's convinced they have, even though he can't find their answer.

Don't you think this is weird behaviour?

BTW, I was having a coffee and he was looking in the window so I took a snap to show you:



Do you think there is any help for him, or should we give it up as a bad job?

Yours sincerely

Concerned



PS, he also thinks he is part of the Star Trek cast and on The Enterprise!

eddie wrote:I'm too changeable to be strong-willed I think.
Look how I am on here. Some times I am quite forceful and other times I'cant be arsed.

I tend to live on my moods and somewhere in mid-air lol

This is what I mean, you are still searching for answers Eddie as most of us are on life, but when it comes to rags beliefs, they are strong, very strong indeed. So much so she gets ultra defensive, because her faith means that much to her. She is very strong willed when it comes to religion and will never be manipulated, neither will Zack or Sexy. They may not bve as stronged will elsewhere but on this point, all 3 are strong willed. You have a belief, it does not need any rules, hence it does not require string will in faith, just belief

Hope that makes sense eddie

x

Yes it does make sense. I do quite admire people's strength in their beleifs though. It takes some willpower.

eddie wrote:Yes it does make sense. I do quite admire people's strength in their beleifs though. It takes some willpower.

If it takes willpower, it's not a belief.  A belief is unconditional, overriding and takes no will.   That's what makes it a belief.

eddie wrote:Yes it does make sense. I do quite admire people's strength in their beleifs though. It takes some willpower.

Which is why I praised rags for actually not answering my question Eddie

I think though and hope though she will at least try to understand why though others do not believe and will question, but that will be hard as she is very strong willed in her faith.

Hence why as much as I do pull her strings and she does bite on certain things, she is always regimented with religion, she will always still get very defensive on christianity, because she is very strong willed in her faith

sassy wrote:

eddie wrote:Yes it does make sense. I do quite admire people's strength in their beleifs though. It takes some willpower.

If it takes willpower, it's not a belief.  A belief is unconditional, overriding and takes no will.   That's what makes it a belief.

Willpower to not be swayed in your beliefs?

eddie wrote:

sassy wrote:


If it takes willpower, it's not a belief.  A belief is unconditional, overriding and takes no will.   That's what makes it a belief.

Willpower to not be swayed in your beliefs?

Indeed, to be strong in faith does not take will power, only doubt requires a person to then need will power to stay strong in faith

Which means sassy has never know what it means to be strong in faith.

I am and I am no longer religious, but faith is strong in many other things Eddie

x

Didge wrote:

eddie wrote:

Willpower to not be swayed in your beliefs?

Indeed, to be strong in faith does not take will power, only doubt requires a person to then need will power to stay strong in faith

au contraire it takes a great deal of will power, faith is independent of reason and to hold the view that a "deity" any deity conceived and or masquerading as a "God " gives one crap about anything the insignificant infestations that "live" on the very thin skin of a planet surface in the vastness of the cosmos
takes a great deal of will power
things like
war
famine
disease
hunger
hate
ect would be unheard of baby`s dying in the oceans in there beds on playgrounds ,families torn apart murder ,rape hate

these things have happened for time immemorial the actors change but the story`s almost all ways the same

My god is better than your god its ok to kill if it`s in the name of (insert deity )

if people want to believe in some great sky man who is interested what consenting adults do in the bedroom,or the fact some women wants a apportion
because
1 she was raped
2 she doesnt want to bring a kid in to the same shity life she miight be living fine let them

ora god who sends natural disasters to kill thousands thats the one that gets me the most

hear are people who have just survived something devestateing and there actually "THANKING GOD"

YES THANKS GOD for sending a bloody disaster my way in the first place
JEeeeze its like me starting a house fire then wanting praise because i put it out after people died

if people want to live in the dark ages clinging desperately to some notion of a great sky spirit ,who is going to save them if they are good boys and girls fine
just don`t let these people in to positions of power where they can make the laws

Well considering we are talking in terms of faith in regards to religion and you have failed to understand the point

A person of faith who is strong in their faith has no need of will power

It is those who have doubt that need will power to stay faithful.

Korben, not knocking but please actually follow what is being said

Just like any relationship where the person has itchy feet, they will have doubt and so doubt reuquires will power, strong faith has no need of will power.

As is anyone going to say they need will power to keep faithful to their partners, wivies, husbands etc?

As two people in love have no need of any will power, as there is no doubt, only doubt creates will power to stay faithful

Even then I am not religious, I am atheist and I do not need any will power to have faith in humanity

You have gone off so on tangent, when you do not even have to be religious to have strong faith, is where some atheists go fundementally wrong. So have no idea why you are trying to teach me of all people about religion.

Yeah I guess willpower was the wrong word.
Perhaps you only need the willpower not to argue in Defence of your religion?
If that makes sense.

eddie wrote:Yeah I guess willpower was the wrong word.
Perhaps you only need the willpower not to argue in Defence of your religion?
If that makes sense.

That is true Eddie but also if you had doubt in your faith as well I guess

Didge wrote:

eddie wrote:Yeah I guess willpower was the wrong word.
Perhaps you only need the willpower not to argue in Defence of your religion?
If that makes sense.

That is true Eddie but also if you had doubt in your faith as well I guess

Yes that too.

Right I'm off out to look at shoes lol and have lunch with my mum
Catch you later

eddie wrote:

Didge wrote:


That is true Eddie but also if you had doubt in your faith as well I guess

Yes that too.

Right I'm off out to look at shoes lol and have lunch with my mum
Catch you later

Hope you have a lovely day Eddie 

Evening folks, cold one isn't it. I'm back tracking to something Raggy said to me on the previous page.

Quoting Raggy: 'I'm sure you wouldn't like a religious person going up to you and trying to convince you that you'd be much happier if you believed in God.
Why don't you leave people alone and let them be the best judge of what makes them happy? Assuming that your way is best is arrogant.'

Raggy my friend, (if I may), I was brought up a good Christian. I loved church, services and hymns etc, even contemplated becoming a vicar/minister, until in my late teens early twenties my life took a very negative turn. When I straightened my life out I began searching and questing for the bona-fides of a god. I studied other faiths, studied mythology, evolution and just about everything else. I came out of this phase with a clear head and mind and ditched God in the bin as just another fable and a waste of paper.

Because I have a Jehovah's Witness friend she, and a couple of her buddies, often call on me and I invite them in and make tea and coffee etc, and we have some good discussions, they make their point, and I make mine. Despite my presenting facts, as I do in these discussions, no way will they, or can they, budge from their beliefs. When I've presented them with facts about the catastrophes that kill thousands they just smile and say: 'Oh, that's Satan's fault.'

To my mind that's just a cop-out and a feeble excuse and that, to me Raggy, is brainwashed. Una ble to think and reason for themselves.    Right, I'll leave that with you and look forward to an open, honest, and pleasant exchange.

Once again, thanks to Didge, Eilzel and others for their understanding and support.

Hm, where are you all? What am I missing on the box? Or have I scored the winning goal?

My "GOD" is in my brain, he tells me what's right and what's wrong, I need no book or person to tell me that!!

A good answer Nicko. I don't think we need a god to tell us how to behave. Good moral behaviour enhances our own lives due to a reciprocation of like behaviour towards us. If we're kind to people they're usually kind in return, and of course if we are unkind to someone then they will be unkind to us. It's all to do with survival. By working together as a positive and helpfull community that enhances the community's survival, as we have seen in primitive communities.
Early Man would have realised this procedure and therefore his family/group/tribe would have survived better the rigours of nature, finding shelter and food.

To my mind and reasoning we don't need a god, we have within us the potential to promote a better life for ourselves and, as said, to the benefit of everyone else.

eddie wrote:Perhaps some religious people don't "follow the book".
Do you have to "follow the book" to be religious?

to be in a defined relgious group yes.. and 'follow' not so much as 'beleive it is true'... you can be a self identified 'bad christian' that believes themselves a sinner.

otherwise like me or nicko you just do what your brain tell you to..
but then you aren't Christian or Muslim or Jewish or Hindu... etc

You are Eddyian or Nickovian or Victaousist

Pagan and Buddhist are a little bit broader and is more reliant of self identification but even then there are 'core tenents' that you'd have to adhere to, in order to claim 'membership'