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Re: Is Anti-Zionism anti-Semitic?
by Raggamuffin Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:16 pm
Is this a follow-up to the locked thread?
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Re: Is Anti-Zionism anti-Semitic?
by Guest Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:20 pm
PMSL, so one Rabbi, who clearly does not speak for all Jews oir how 95 percent of Israeli Jews back zionism.
Dress it up with as much desperation as you like, hating them as people whether zionist, Jews or Israeli;s is as racist as it gets.
So again for the simpleton who wishes zionists to burn for wanting a homeland.
What percentage of Jews living in Israel do not believe in Zionism? What about those living in the United States?
6 Answers
Arthur Weiss
Arthur Weiss, I'm an Orthodox Jew living in the UK.
940 Views • Arthur is a Most Viewed Writer in Judaism.
Before answering this question you have to answer two things:
1) What is Zionism
2) What does it mean to be a Jew
Zionism can have multiple definitions - from a belief that Israel is the Jewish National homeland, to the right of Jews to self-determine their own fate in their own country, to a wish for a theocracy under the leadership of the Messiah in the land of Israel. Most definitions work on the assumption that Jews are a separate nation - and that Judaism is more than a religion unlike Christianity. Thus, although a Jew may be born in England or America, they have both aspects i.e. they are an English Jew or an American Jew rather than an Englishman or American who practices Judaism as their religion.
Not all Jews are religious or practicing in their Judaism. Some were born Jewish but apart from that, don't identify with anything Jewish at all. They may be anti-Zionist as a way of stressing that they want nothing to do with being Jewish - and as support for Israel is one of the last aspects of being Jewish that remains after all the ritualistic, religious aspects are discarded, this is one way to show how 'non-Jewish' they are. That is a reason why some left-wing secular Jews claim not to be Zionist. It's a way of emphasising their rejection of Judaism and their Jewish backgrounds.
Some Jews are extremely religious and view Zionism as a secular political movement and so define themselves as anti-Zionist. They reject the secular nature of Israel. At the same time, such Jews will pray every day - several times - for a return to the land of Israel, for the Jewish sovereignty in the land, and for the rebuilding of the Temple on the site of the Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. Groups such as Neturei Karta that are virulently anti-Zionist fall in this category. Such religious anti-Zionist Jews want Israel to be theocracy and believe that Israel should only exist as a sovereign nation when the Messiah comes. Some go a step further and say that the existence of Israel is preventing this - and so want Israel to be destroyed so that it can be recreated in the form they want under the leadership of the Messiah.
The point of this is that the VAST majority of Jews globally are Zionist in that they want a Jewish State in the land of Israel. Where they differ is in the nature of that State - secular or religious.
The majority of non-religious Jews also want a Jewish state in Israel or are against the idea of there not being one. They may see Zionism as active support for the government of Israel and so may reject Zionism, as defined by this. However they still support Israel's existence as a Jewish state - even if they say they are non-Zionist because they don't support Israel's current government. (They will view a Zionist as somebody who is totally uncritical on Israel and its policies - and hence define themselves as non-Zionist, even though they support Israel and the Jewish rule there).
A small minority of non-religious Jews are genuinely anti-Zionist - as discussed - as a way of demonstrating their rejection of Judaism (or all religions).
Thus if you define Zionism as support for Israel and/or the wish for there to be Jewish sovereignty of Israel, then over 99% of Jews are Zionists.
If you define Zionism as support of the current government of Israel and all its decisions, then a much smaller percentage (but still, at a guess over 50%) are Zionist.
If you define Zionism as support for the "greater Israel" movement and in favour of settlements throughout Israel and including the territories occupied in 1967, plus limits on the rights of non-Jews (including Arabs), etc. then a VERY VERY small percentage of Jews both in Israel and outside Israel will support this. The problem is that too many people who do not understand the Jewish connection to Zionism see this as a definition of Zionism and then mention all the Jews they know who don't support this - and then claim most Jews aren't Zionist, and that you can be a practicing Jew without being Zionist.
Scholars have struggled to understand the many faces of anti-Semitism, a phenomenon which has existed for almost two millennia, and which the great scholar Robert Wistrich labeled “the longest hatred.”
In the Middle Ages when Jews were forced into conversion, exile, and/or ghettos, Jew hatred took a religious form.
Even in the 1930s, when I was growing up in Brooklyn, there were children who ran after me, taunting me as a Christ killer.
Later, Jew hatred morphed into economics, with Jews hated either as greedy capitalists with power over the world, or its opposite, as revolutionary Communists.
By the 1930s, the Nazis labeled Jews as an inferior “race” who contaminated the earth by their existence, and therefore, deserved to be exterminated.
But now, and particularly on university campuses, it is the land of Israel that is the medium through which hatred, now of the Jewish collective, is expressed.
Hatred that is irrational and obsessive is other than mere scholarly criticism. When the existence of Israel and the actions of Israel and its citizens and supporters are labeled as inherently sinful, and when the sins can only be redeemed by dismantling, destroying the Jewish State, and thereby once again making Jews the wanderers of the earth, or worse eliciting genocide, that is more than mere criticism. When the Holocaust savagery and genocide, its imagery and language, is used against Jews — and no one else — to brand them as Nazis, this is not scholarly criticism of policies. When Israel is singled out and held to a double standard in matters of foreign affairs, that is not scholarly criticism.
Pope Francis equates anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. He recently told a journalist that anyone who does not accept Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state is “guilty of anti-Semitism.” President Obama also suggested in an interview that same week that denying Israel’s right to exist is anti-Semitic.
Distressingly, Jew hatred under the guise of anti-Zionism has made its way to American university campuses, and it does impact Jewish students.
At UC Berkeley, “Zionists should be sent to the gas chamber” was scrawled on a bathroom wall in the wake of a student senate campaign to pressure the university to divest from America companies that do business with Israel.
At UC Davis, during a similar student campaign fomenting anti-Israel divestment, “grout out the Jews” was scrawled on the university’s Hillel House, and a Jewish fraternity was spray-painted with swastikas, the Nazi symbol representing the murder of 6,000,000 Jews.
At UC Santa Barbara, flyers blaming Jews for 9/11 were posted on campus.
At UCLA, students on the Judicial Council of the student government questioned the fitness of a candidate on the grounds that she was Jewish and potentially pro-Israel. The four students who shamelessly doubted her eligibility were themselves the authors of the most recent attempt at anti-Israel divestment at UCLA.
Advertisement
These are clear campus manifestations of bigotry against Jews although they are expressed in the form of anti-Zionism. The U.S. State Department definition of anti-Semitism, passed into law by Congress to monitor global anti-Semitism, addresses the unique nature of contemporary Jew hatred by recognizing that language or behavior which demonizes and delegitimizes the Jewish state or denies its right to exist may cross the line into anti-Semitism. In July, the Regents of the University of California will decide whether to adopt the definition.
There are those who would falsely claim that the State Department definition violates free speech and academic freedom. But defining anti-Semitism simply allows for its proper identification; it does not prescribe shutting down speech or taking any other disciplinary measures. Indeed, anti-Semitic rhetoric is not against the law, but it is bigotry, and it can and should be identified and called out with the same promptness and vigor as all other forms of racial, ethnic and gender bigotry.
Universities, including a great public university as the University of California, have a duty to ensure that their students do not face bigotry. The UC Regents and president did just that in identifying and condemning racism, as in the events around the “Compton cookout.” In 2010, a student fraternity at UC San Diego held an off-campus party to mock Black History Month. The party was ghetto-themed and urged participants to wear chains, don cheap clothes, and speak very loudly. The UC Regents and president condemned the bigoted speech. Their actions did not elicit cries of violations of academic freedom or of free speech but were applauded as the right thing to do.
Jewish students and all students deserve the same actions from their university administration; no more and no less. It is the duty of the UC administration to establish a positive university atmosphere, not by censoring speech, but by identifying that which is anti-Semitic and poisons the atmosphere.
Leila Beckwith is a professor emeritus at the University of California, Los Angeles, and the founder of AMCHA Initiative, a non-profit organization that fights campus anti-Semitism.
http://www.dailynews.com/opinion/20150626/how-anti-zionism-has-turned-into-anti-semitism-on-uc-campuses-guest-commentary
Makes laugh how these pathetic little racists try to deny that they are, you still hate the Israeli Jews for just wanting a homeland,
That is antisemitism
Dress it up with as much desperation as you like, hating them as people whether zionist, Jews or Israeli;s is as racist as it gets.
So again for the simpleton who wishes zionists to burn for wanting a homeland.
What percentage of Jews living in Israel do not believe in Zionism? What about those living in the United States?
6 Answers
Arthur Weiss
Arthur Weiss, I'm an Orthodox Jew living in the UK.
940 Views • Arthur is a Most Viewed Writer in Judaism.
Before answering this question you have to answer two things:
1) What is Zionism
2) What does it mean to be a Jew
Zionism can have multiple definitions - from a belief that Israel is the Jewish National homeland, to the right of Jews to self-determine their own fate in their own country, to a wish for a theocracy under the leadership of the Messiah in the land of Israel. Most definitions work on the assumption that Jews are a separate nation - and that Judaism is more than a religion unlike Christianity. Thus, although a Jew may be born in England or America, they have both aspects i.e. they are an English Jew or an American Jew rather than an Englishman or American who practices Judaism as their religion.
Not all Jews are religious or practicing in their Judaism. Some were born Jewish but apart from that, don't identify with anything Jewish at all. They may be anti-Zionist as a way of stressing that they want nothing to do with being Jewish - and as support for Israel is one of the last aspects of being Jewish that remains after all the ritualistic, religious aspects are discarded, this is one way to show how 'non-Jewish' they are. That is a reason why some left-wing secular Jews claim not to be Zionist. It's a way of emphasising their rejection of Judaism and their Jewish backgrounds.
Some Jews are extremely religious and view Zionism as a secular political movement and so define themselves as anti-Zionist. They reject the secular nature of Israel. At the same time, such Jews will pray every day - several times - for a return to the land of Israel, for the Jewish sovereignty in the land, and for the rebuilding of the Temple on the site of the Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. Groups such as Neturei Karta that are virulently anti-Zionist fall in this category. Such religious anti-Zionist Jews want Israel to be theocracy and believe that Israel should only exist as a sovereign nation when the Messiah comes. Some go a step further and say that the existence of Israel is preventing this - and so want Israel to be destroyed so that it can be recreated in the form they want under the leadership of the Messiah.
The point of this is that the VAST majority of Jews globally are Zionist in that they want a Jewish State in the land of Israel. Where they differ is in the nature of that State - secular or religious.
The majority of non-religious Jews also want a Jewish state in Israel or are against the idea of there not being one. They may see Zionism as active support for the government of Israel and so may reject Zionism, as defined by this. However they still support Israel's existence as a Jewish state - even if they say they are non-Zionist because they don't support Israel's current government. (They will view a Zionist as somebody who is totally uncritical on Israel and its policies - and hence define themselves as non-Zionist, even though they support Israel and the Jewish rule there).
A small minority of non-religious Jews are genuinely anti-Zionist - as discussed - as a way of demonstrating their rejection of Judaism (or all religions).
Thus if you define Zionism as support for Israel and/or the wish for there to be Jewish sovereignty of Israel, then over 99% of Jews are Zionists.
If you define Zionism as support of the current government of Israel and all its decisions, then a much smaller percentage (but still, at a guess over 50%) are Zionist.
If you define Zionism as support for the "greater Israel" movement and in favour of settlements throughout Israel and including the territories occupied in 1967, plus limits on the rights of non-Jews (including Arabs), etc. then a VERY VERY small percentage of Jews both in Israel and outside Israel will support this. The problem is that too many people who do not understand the Jewish connection to Zionism see this as a definition of Zionism and then mention all the Jews they know who don't support this - and then claim most Jews aren't Zionist, and that you can be a practicing Jew without being Zionist.
Scholars have struggled to understand the many faces of anti-Semitism, a phenomenon which has existed for almost two millennia, and which the great scholar Robert Wistrich labeled “the longest hatred.”
In the Middle Ages when Jews were forced into conversion, exile, and/or ghettos, Jew hatred took a religious form.
Even in the 1930s, when I was growing up in Brooklyn, there were children who ran after me, taunting me as a Christ killer.
Later, Jew hatred morphed into economics, with Jews hated either as greedy capitalists with power over the world, or its opposite, as revolutionary Communists.
By the 1930s, the Nazis labeled Jews as an inferior “race” who contaminated the earth by their existence, and therefore, deserved to be exterminated.
But now, and particularly on university campuses, it is the land of Israel that is the medium through which hatred, now of the Jewish collective, is expressed.
Hatred that is irrational and obsessive is other than mere scholarly criticism. When the existence of Israel and the actions of Israel and its citizens and supporters are labeled as inherently sinful, and when the sins can only be redeemed by dismantling, destroying the Jewish State, and thereby once again making Jews the wanderers of the earth, or worse eliciting genocide, that is more than mere criticism. When the Holocaust savagery and genocide, its imagery and language, is used against Jews — and no one else — to brand them as Nazis, this is not scholarly criticism of policies. When Israel is singled out and held to a double standard in matters of foreign affairs, that is not scholarly criticism.
Pope Francis equates anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. He recently told a journalist that anyone who does not accept Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state is “guilty of anti-Semitism.” President Obama also suggested in an interview that same week that denying Israel’s right to exist is anti-Semitic.
Distressingly, Jew hatred under the guise of anti-Zionism has made its way to American university campuses, and it does impact Jewish students.
At UC Berkeley, “Zionists should be sent to the gas chamber” was scrawled on a bathroom wall in the wake of a student senate campaign to pressure the university to divest from America companies that do business with Israel.
At UC Davis, during a similar student campaign fomenting anti-Israel divestment, “grout out the Jews” was scrawled on the university’s Hillel House, and a Jewish fraternity was spray-painted with swastikas, the Nazi symbol representing the murder of 6,000,000 Jews.
At UC Santa Barbara, flyers blaming Jews for 9/11 were posted on campus.
At UCLA, students on the Judicial Council of the student government questioned the fitness of a candidate on the grounds that she was Jewish and potentially pro-Israel. The four students who shamelessly doubted her eligibility were themselves the authors of the most recent attempt at anti-Israel divestment at UCLA.
Advertisement
These are clear campus manifestations of bigotry against Jews although they are expressed in the form of anti-Zionism. The U.S. State Department definition of anti-Semitism, passed into law by Congress to monitor global anti-Semitism, addresses the unique nature of contemporary Jew hatred by recognizing that language or behavior which demonizes and delegitimizes the Jewish state or denies its right to exist may cross the line into anti-Semitism. In July, the Regents of the University of California will decide whether to adopt the definition.
There are those who would falsely claim that the State Department definition violates free speech and academic freedom. But defining anti-Semitism simply allows for its proper identification; it does not prescribe shutting down speech or taking any other disciplinary measures. Indeed, anti-Semitic rhetoric is not against the law, but it is bigotry, and it can and should be identified and called out with the same promptness and vigor as all other forms of racial, ethnic and gender bigotry.
Universities, including a great public university as the University of California, have a duty to ensure that their students do not face bigotry. The UC Regents and president did just that in identifying and condemning racism, as in the events around the “Compton cookout.” In 2010, a student fraternity at UC San Diego held an off-campus party to mock Black History Month. The party was ghetto-themed and urged participants to wear chains, don cheap clothes, and speak very loudly. The UC Regents and president condemned the bigoted speech. Their actions did not elicit cries of violations of academic freedom or of free speech but were applauded as the right thing to do.
Jewish students and all students deserve the same actions from their university administration; no more and no less. It is the duty of the UC administration to establish a positive university atmosphere, not by censoring speech, but by identifying that which is anti-Semitic and poisons the atmosphere.
Leila Beckwith is a professor emeritus at the University of California, Los Angeles, and the founder of AMCHA Initiative, a non-profit organization that fights campus anti-Semitism.
http://www.dailynews.com/opinion/20150626/how-anti-zionism-has-turned-into-anti-semitism-on-uc-campuses-guest-commentary
Makes laugh how these pathetic little racists try to deny that they are, you still hate the Israeli Jews for just wanting a homeland,
That is antisemitism
Guest- Guest
Re: Is Anti-Zionism anti-Semitic?
by Guest Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:41 pm
Fuzzy Zack wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:Is this a follow-up to the locked thread?
Can be if you want.
But I'm also coining a new phrase today: Nationalist Captitalists (Nazcaps), who are just as vile as those who tried to ethnically cleanse the Jews from Germany. Zionists are Nazcaps who are trying to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians. Nazcaps come in many forms but they all effectively take away the rights of the people and hand it over to global capitalists. And they will kill you if you don't.
Odd, being as they occupied for years the lands, then withdrew and the Population has increase in the Palestinian territories.
You see there is nothing worse when people have no evidence for such an unfounded claim even more when Israel could have easily done so
Of course because the Arabs attacked Israel in the beginning many did flee the conflict, where as many Jews were exepelled from Muslim countries, their crime, to the Muslim was being Jewish.
Now that was ethnic cleansing.
Even on defintions you get it wriong
Guest- Guest
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