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About Us & RulesJewish Antisemitism or a Voice of Peace
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Re: Jewish Antisemitism or a Voice of Peace
by Guest Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:43 pm
Show me anywhere that they are denying the ethnic and cultural identity of Israel's to be Jewish, as you and sassy did?
This is why you fail to understand what discrimination and antisemitism is. You both argued to deligitimize Israeli's their ethnic and cultural status as Jews. I Mean seriously, if an asian turned around to another British Asian and said you are not British and will never be British because you are Asian, that would be not only racist but discrmination. As like the Far right, such claims racially deny people their identity. You both and sassy more so tried to deligitimize the Jewish status for Israelis to play off then calling them Zionists, to basically justify your hatred of the Israeli people itself. As that can be the only sole purpose to deny them their Jewish identity, to wrongly create and wrongly justify a racist hate of Israeli's viewing them not as Jews but only as zionists.
So again where do they deny Israeli's their Jewish identity?
You do realise thar this group would stand completely against both you and Sassy if it did indeed apply its princplies, as you fundementally discrminate against Israeli's denying them their Jewish identity. You do realise that do you not?
Interesting group, though sadly its going to have to come to terms with the fact that both Hamas and now Fatah can not claim to be in any shape or form democratic.
Jewish Voice for Peace is a diverse and democratic community of activists inspired by Jewish tradition to work together for peace, social justice, and human rights. We support the aspirations of Israelis and Palestinians for security and self-determination.
That last point is significant and important, but as I have to rightly back the right of the self determination of the Palestinains. I certainly could never back Hamas or any Islamist group seeking power, when they deny many basic equal rights to groups. So I woul always champion the right of self determination, but when people enforce views into polices that conflict with eqquality, I would stand firmly in opposition to the policies of that nation. Fatah, the PA, hamas they also and even worse by doing so, deligitimize the civillian status of israeli. To then poorly attempt to justify and then normalize killing civillians, by then declassifying these acts to be non-criminal. That is abhorant and it speaks volumes of what Israel faces where hate within these terroritories is rife. So rife, that when acts of wrongs done by israeli extremists, the Israel Goverment allied to Phalangists, where in the event of where a massacre of Muslim Arabs in Shatilla and Sabra in Lebanon, actually sees, countless Israeli's stand up at nd protests to the injustice committed. Do you see anything comparable to when Israeli's are murdered through terrorist acts in the West bank or gaza? Its actually the opposite, where they in fact glorify these murders and glorify acts of murder. That shows how many Israeli's even place the value of life onto a people, who has somewithin that socity want to exterminate them from existance. They rightfully stand up to injustices. Is this vast difference that is one of the major stumbling blocks to peace and why the main problems for peace stem more so on the Palestinian side, through the hate promoted by the authority governeing bodies.
When such acts are against the fundemental most importanrt right of humans that they have, the right to exist and live.
And again all religious Jews, even where you screwed up on some orthordox Jews, back the view they will one day return to what they class as the Holy land. The only difference being they are waiting on a messiah. They certainly do not claim, they will never ever return.
This group are being very vocal and critical, which they have a right to do and actually advocating peace for both sides. Is just a shame they do not understand the mindset that allows through the religion of Islam, to think the land is their through conquest.
tTo bring about peace is much simpler than that Zack.
The peace could be brought about tomorrow and as I keep saying all it takes is for both sides to agree on peace and want peace. Clearly as seen at present the vast majority of Palestinians do not want peace and have never wanted peace in the majority. 1948 was when they wrongly tried to wipe out a people having their own nation. This whole conflict stems from Islamic beliefs, that deem lands once conquered by Muslims as theirs for all time. Its not even a historical reason like the Israelis use. Its based on the most selfish unethical reason to think a deity would grant Muslims authority to hold lands. Going against the will of people themselves.
Do you think the Germans were victims for invading Poland, with intent to wipe out Poland as a nation and many of its people?
So to obtain peace, Israel need a more left wing governemnt, they need to stop any more settlements and on the Palestinian side, that actually have to want peace and actually defend the right of Israel to exist.
This is what keeps the conflict going:
The jihad is a global conception that divides the peoples of the world into two irreconcilable camps: that of the dar al-Harb, the “Territory of War,” which covers those regions controlled by the infidels; and the dar al-Islam, “the Territory of Islam,” the Muslim homeland where Islamic law reigns. The jihad is the normal and permanent state of war between the Muslims and the dar al-Harb, a war that can only end with the final domination over unbelievers and the absolute supremacy of Islam throughout the world.
Once the forces of Islam conquer a land or territory, it is to remain under Islamic dominion forever (‘for generations’), and it is a mortal affront to the supremacy of Islam when such territories would ever be lost to the dominion of Islam and revert to previous - infidel - ownership as was the case in Palestine. It was a Muslim controlled territory (under the Muslim Turks and later the Muslim Arabs) and reverted by the decree of the U.N. resolution back to its previous owners: the Jews. This is how the Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement spells it out in several passages:
“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.” (The Martyr, Imam Hassan el-Banna)
“The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered; it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Muslim generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Muslim generations till Judgement Day?
This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Muslims have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Muslims consecrated these lands to Muslim generations till the Day of Judgement.” (The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement, 18 August 1988, Article Three)
The Arab League Secretary General Azzam Pasha, said on 1 May 1948 thus even before the Jewish State was born:
If the Zionists dare establish a state in Falastin, the massacre which will ensue here will dwarf anything which Genghis Khan and Hitler did.”
Therefore, the acceptance of Jihad or ‘holy war’ comes easy to Islam. From its inception Islam has been a warring and very bloody, subjugating religion, which has not blushed at the use of war and terror but glorified it as the absolute will of Allah.
This then is the main problem. As long as Islam remains intolerant of really accepting any other group of people on an equal basis - rather than as dhimmies to be subjugated by Islam - there can never be a real peace with an Islamic power. Only a ‘submission’ (which is what Islam means) to its stated superiority and dictates. This awaits the whole world including the secular, often irreligious, West.
This is why the Muslim children chant, especially during the Middle East Wars: “We shall fight on Saturday and then on Sunday” In other words, first the Jews and then the Christians. Make no mistake about this. When Israel will be swallowed up by the sea of Jihad, soon to be armed by weapons of mass destruction acquired by Muslim Iran and Muslim Iraq and others, the Muslims will believe that Allah has brought them to this point that they can finally reoccupy their Muslim Palestine and drive the Jews, the infidels as they would call them - into the sea as they have said and screamed many times in the name of their Allah.
Also:
Israel's occupation of the West Bank is fully legal under the terms of UN Resolution 242 (1967), which was carefully drafted to guarantee Israel's rights to remain there until such time as there is a "Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force." As no secure and recognized boundaries have been established, despite numerous attempts by the government of Israel to bring them about, Israel's presence there remains entirely legal. And as only Israeli armed forces will be required to withdraw in the event that such boundaries are created, the presence of Israeli settlements there will remain legal under the terms of the original League of Nations Mandate for Palestine, which stipulates that there should be close Jewish settlement in all areas. Those Mandate provisions were incorporated into UN Resolution 181, which called for the establishment of a Jewish and an Arab state. Similarly, the statement that the EU "will not recognise any changes to pre-1967 borders" is legally invalid as well as obnoxious. No such pre-1967 borders ever existed. The armistice lines, established in 1949 on the termination of the 1948-1949 war between Israel and its several Arab enemies, are not borders. And as the 1967 war was fought by Israel as a war of defence, its alleged "occupation" (which then included the Gaza Strip) of territories previously occupied by two of the belligerent states (Egypt in Gaza, and Jordan in the West Bank) is fully legal under the international laws of armed combat, principally under Article 51 of the UN Charter.
This is why you fail to understand what discrimination and antisemitism is. You both argued to deligitimize Israeli's their ethnic and cultural status as Jews. I Mean seriously, if an asian turned around to another British Asian and said you are not British and will never be British because you are Asian, that would be not only racist but discrmination. As like the Far right, such claims racially deny people their identity. You both and sassy more so tried to deligitimize the Jewish status for Israelis to play off then calling them Zionists, to basically justify your hatred of the Israeli people itself. As that can be the only sole purpose to deny them their Jewish identity, to wrongly create and wrongly justify a racist hate of Israeli's viewing them not as Jews but only as zionists.
So again where do they deny Israeli's their Jewish identity?
You do realise thar this group would stand completely against both you and Sassy if it did indeed apply its princplies, as you fundementally discrminate against Israeli's denying them their Jewish identity. You do realise that do you not?
Interesting group, though sadly its going to have to come to terms with the fact that both Hamas and now Fatah can not claim to be in any shape or form democratic.
Jewish Voice for Peace is a diverse and democratic community of activists inspired by Jewish tradition to work together for peace, social justice, and human rights. We support the aspirations of Israelis and Palestinians for security and self-determination.
That last point is significant and important, but as I have to rightly back the right of the self determination of the Palestinains. I certainly could never back Hamas or any Islamist group seeking power, when they deny many basic equal rights to groups. So I woul always champion the right of self determination, but when people enforce views into polices that conflict with eqquality, I would stand firmly in opposition to the policies of that nation. Fatah, the PA, hamas they also and even worse by doing so, deligitimize the civillian status of israeli. To then poorly attempt to justify and then normalize killing civillians, by then declassifying these acts to be non-criminal. That is abhorant and it speaks volumes of what Israel faces where hate within these terroritories is rife. So rife, that when acts of wrongs done by israeli extremists, the Israel Goverment allied to Phalangists, where in the event of where a massacre of Muslim Arabs in Shatilla and Sabra in Lebanon, actually sees, countless Israeli's stand up at nd protests to the injustice committed. Do you see anything comparable to when Israeli's are murdered through terrorist acts in the West bank or gaza? Its actually the opposite, where they in fact glorify these murders and glorify acts of murder. That shows how many Israeli's even place the value of life onto a people, who has somewithin that socity want to exterminate them from existance. They rightfully stand up to injustices. Is this vast difference that is one of the major stumbling blocks to peace and why the main problems for peace stem more so on the Palestinian side, through the hate promoted by the authority governeing bodies.
When such acts are against the fundemental most importanrt right of humans that they have, the right to exist and live.
And again all religious Jews, even where you screwed up on some orthordox Jews, back the view they will one day return to what they class as the Holy land. The only difference being they are waiting on a messiah. They certainly do not claim, they will never ever return.
This group are being very vocal and critical, which they have a right to do and actually advocating peace for both sides. Is just a shame they do not understand the mindset that allows through the religion of Islam, to think the land is their through conquest.
tTo bring about peace is much simpler than that Zack.
The peace could be brought about tomorrow and as I keep saying all it takes is for both sides to agree on peace and want peace. Clearly as seen at present the vast majority of Palestinians do not want peace and have never wanted peace in the majority. 1948 was when they wrongly tried to wipe out a people having their own nation. This whole conflict stems from Islamic beliefs, that deem lands once conquered by Muslims as theirs for all time. Its not even a historical reason like the Israelis use. Its based on the most selfish unethical reason to think a deity would grant Muslims authority to hold lands. Going against the will of people themselves.
Do you think the Germans were victims for invading Poland, with intent to wipe out Poland as a nation and many of its people?
So to obtain peace, Israel need a more left wing governemnt, they need to stop any more settlements and on the Palestinian side, that actually have to want peace and actually defend the right of Israel to exist.
This is what keeps the conflict going:
The jihad is a global conception that divides the peoples of the world into two irreconcilable camps: that of the dar al-Harb, the “Territory of War,” which covers those regions controlled by the infidels; and the dar al-Islam, “the Territory of Islam,” the Muslim homeland where Islamic law reigns. The jihad is the normal and permanent state of war between the Muslims and the dar al-Harb, a war that can only end with the final domination over unbelievers and the absolute supremacy of Islam throughout the world.
Once the forces of Islam conquer a land or territory, it is to remain under Islamic dominion forever (‘for generations’), and it is a mortal affront to the supremacy of Islam when such territories would ever be lost to the dominion of Islam and revert to previous - infidel - ownership as was the case in Palestine. It was a Muslim controlled territory (under the Muslim Turks and later the Muslim Arabs) and reverted by the decree of the U.N. resolution back to its previous owners: the Jews. This is how the Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement spells it out in several passages:
“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.” (The Martyr, Imam Hassan el-Banna)
“The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered; it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Muslim generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Muslim generations till Judgement Day?
This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Muslims have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Muslims consecrated these lands to Muslim generations till the Day of Judgement.” (The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement, 18 August 1988, Article Three)
The Arab League Secretary General Azzam Pasha, said on 1 May 1948 thus even before the Jewish State was born:
If the Zionists dare establish a state in Falastin, the massacre which will ensue here will dwarf anything which Genghis Khan and Hitler did.”
Therefore, the acceptance of Jihad or ‘holy war’ comes easy to Islam. From its inception Islam has been a warring and very bloody, subjugating religion, which has not blushed at the use of war and terror but glorified it as the absolute will of Allah.
This then is the main problem. As long as Islam remains intolerant of really accepting any other group of people on an equal basis - rather than as dhimmies to be subjugated by Islam - there can never be a real peace with an Islamic power. Only a ‘submission’ (which is what Islam means) to its stated superiority and dictates. This awaits the whole world including the secular, often irreligious, West.
This is why the Muslim children chant, especially during the Middle East Wars: “We shall fight on Saturday and then on Sunday” In other words, first the Jews and then the Christians. Make no mistake about this. When Israel will be swallowed up by the sea of Jihad, soon to be armed by weapons of mass destruction acquired by Muslim Iran and Muslim Iraq and others, the Muslims will believe that Allah has brought them to this point that they can finally reoccupy their Muslim Palestine and drive the Jews, the infidels as they would call them - into the sea as they have said and screamed many times in the name of their Allah.
Also:
Israel's occupation of the West Bank is fully legal under the terms of UN Resolution 242 (1967), which was carefully drafted to guarantee Israel's rights to remain there until such time as there is a "Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force." As no secure and recognized boundaries have been established, despite numerous attempts by the government of Israel to bring them about, Israel's presence there remains entirely legal. And as only Israeli armed forces will be required to withdraw in the event that such boundaries are created, the presence of Israeli settlements there will remain legal under the terms of the original League of Nations Mandate for Palestine, which stipulates that there should be close Jewish settlement in all areas. Those Mandate provisions were incorporated into UN Resolution 181, which called for the establishment of a Jewish and an Arab state. Similarly, the statement that the EU "will not recognise any changes to pre-1967 borders" is legally invalid as well as obnoxious. No such pre-1967 borders ever existed. The armistice lines, established in 1949 on the termination of the 1948-1949 war between Israel and its several Arab enemies, are not borders. And as the 1967 war was fought by Israel as a war of defence, its alleged "occupation" (which then included the Gaza Strip) of territories previously occupied by two of the belligerent states (Egypt in Gaza, and Jordan in the West Bank) is fully legal under the international laws of armed combat, principally under Article 51 of the UN Charter.
Guest- Guest
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