Scary statistic.

One in Three Americans own a gun.

There are various estimates of between 270 million and 310 million guns in the US, close to one firearm for every man, woman and child.

Physically impossible to ban them!

Guns are definitely a part of the American persona.

I have no idea what the answer is in America to get guns off the streets....maybe the people are happy with their right to own arms.


I would hate to live in a country where guns were freely available. The nutters we have on our own streets are bad enough. A nutter with a gun in his hand is a very scary thought.

Guns are married to the American self-identity.  Not only were firearms an essential part of frontier life, but you have to remember that America was born fighting against authority for personal rights. The gun is symbolic on the political, as well as the personal level.

Today, the idea of 'gun → self-help' is so fundamental that to date this year we have had 56 of these shootings.

You've heard about the Civil War, and how the rifled barrel brought about modern warfare.  When those southerners lost, the roamed west and were the shootists and gun slingers they have glorified in films.  Today they've traded the horses for pick-up trucks, but they didn't get the memo to change their values.

Everything from excessive taxes to loss to the ex-wife on a property settlement, brings to an angry mind the firearm in the back closet.  Only a very few of these incidents are related in any way to Islam.  They are related to anger, in one way or another, with the complexities of modern life.  Once again, it's a cowboy, perceiving his rights trampled under, that says, damn it, I'm not going to take this... and there you have it.

I don't know what this one is all about.  But I'm sure looking...

I know Americans have a different mindset re gun ownership, but the days of taking what you want because you are the better shot are long over.

I doubt that lawlessness is ingrained in any modern civilised culture, but then I don't think the vast majority of people who live in a modern society  live in the past either.

I have owned several firearms in private life over quite a long time, now, I only own 1 legal shotgun.
I was 8 when I first fired a .410 shotgun, I had my own 12 bore at 12 although it was registered to my old man.

I have undergone professional instruction on and off for years, 2 years back a refresher course on shotguns/safety of 6 instruction hourly lessons by a qualified registered instructor.

I do not own any bullet guns now.

In all my life so far I have only personally ever known of 1 incident concerning misuse of a gun, a man shot/killed himself in the head during marital problems.

I cannot tell you how many people I know who own all types of guns which I believe to be legal.

Even the best trained HUMANS can flip and commit an illegal gun offence, you cannot legislate to stop it.

Knives, axes, garden spades, vehicles, crossbows, cocktail stick, stone, house brick almost anything is capable of being used to kill or maim someone.

I have even been on a multinationalfirearms course with the CIA, FBI, Henderson Police and more, SAFETY is hammered into you all the time, you never forget.

I have known firearms officers here who are safety conscious at every turn.

Car KILL more people than guns in this country.

On ALL the shoots I go on you are lectured prior to actual shooting on safety knowing full well if you misbehave with a gun or without one on a shoot you will be told to leave and NEVER invited back and you could be blacklisted.

All in all guns in this country are OK it is those who misuse them who are the problem.

I might come back on this very interesting thread from Syl., which is a change from politics which I am bored with.

"Guns don't kill people people kill people"....I have heard that said a few times.
But if people don't have access to guns they cant shoot anyone.

Thank you for that Stormee.....I tend to skirt all the similar political/religious threads myself most of the time.

Stormee wrote:All in all guns in this country are OK it is those who misuse them who are the problem.

You are right, there are two elements to that equation: guns and people. But the question isn't, which is the bad element? The question is, why permit the two to mix at all?

Separate guns from people and you have the answer.

Original Quill wrote:

Stormee wrote:All in all guns in this country are OK it is those who misuse them who are the problem.

You are right, there are two elements to that equation: guns and people.  But the question isn't, which is the bad element?  The question is, why permit the two to mix at all?

Separate guns from people and you have the answer.

No, you do not have the answer.

Many moons ago people were clubbed to death, bashed on the head with large stones, stabbed.

No guns then.

Stormee wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

You are right, there are two elements to that equation: guns and people.  But the question isn't, which is the bad element?  The question is, why permit the two to mix at all?

Separate guns from people and you have the answer.

No, you do not have the answer.

Many moons ago people were clubbed to death, bashed on the head with large stones, stabbed.

No guns then.

Notice there aren't a lot of clubs and large, head-bashing stones tucked away in the closets and cabinets of rednecks today? Hence, there aren't a lot of murders by clubs and large stones. Separate the instrument of killing from the people who have the impulse to kill, and you have the answer.

Those things I mentioned are readily available. OQ

Original Quill wrote:Guns are definitely a part of the American persona.

And a legal right, OQ.

I had 8 weeks in Vegas, staying in Henderson and was guided around and the weapons I seen were army issue types, machine guns, tanks, just about anything money could buy.

On a shooting range in the Mohave Desert someone had a Gatling gun, noisy thing.

I went to a restaurant with a name like 'Capone' cannot remember exactly, there were Tommy Guns hanging on the walls.
You needed a reservation to get in,a geeza opened a little hatch in the door and looked you up and down, he was armed, spooky.

On Hollywood Boulevard there were more knives for sale than I have ever seen.

Stormee wrote:Those things I mentioned are readily available. OQ

I know they are. But they aren't kept as an extension of the ego.

My point is not just that guns are available, but that they have become a part of the American psyche. As such, they are the recommended tools-of-the-trade for the local crazies and rednecks. They are kept as prizes, in back closets, and taken out and used when the head explodes.

It is the intellect, mindset which kills not the weapon.
My understanding is that the USA owes a lot to the invention of guns, they did help to build it.

BTW I am a Sherman fan.

Stormee wrote:It is the intellect, mindset which kills not the weapon.
My understanding is that the USA owes a lot to the invention of guns, they did help to build it.

BTW I am a Sherman fan.

I agree with you. Those who think that simply making guns more difficult to own are underestimating the magnitude of the problem. It's a start, but the up-hill climb continues.

That's because--as you state--it's not just that there is freedom to possess a gun, but glory and fulfillment in the possession. People have their egos wrapped up in gun ownership. It's an extension of their perception of themselves. They can use their guns to impose their will.

They call that 'independent spirit' or 'self-reliance' or even 'self-confidence' and 'certitude', but in the end it's only trouble. You shoot someone, you have a 50-50 chance or better of going down yourself. But hey, it's who those rednecks believe they are.

also...if this does turn out to be a terrorist incident...i dont think any amount of gun control would help

americas borders are very porous...even more so than the uks

so guns for this kind of act could easily be smuggled in

moreover absent guns there are explosives, poisons etc...

there is a whole world of difference beween the individual nutter who snaps and kills even a number of people

him you can take the guns away from.....then he drives his truck into a crowd...

and the terrorist with firm and deadly intent...

HE is prepared to take time and maximise casualties with as much precision as he can muster....and may well have the access and time to use that access to some quite scary material and knowlege.....

Original Quill wrote:

Stormee wrote:It is the intellect, mindset which kills not the weapon.
My understanding is that the USA owes a lot to the invention of guns, they did help to build it.

BTW I am a Sherman fan.

I agree with you.  Those who think that simply making guns more difficult to own are underestimating the magnitude of the problem.  It's a start, but the up-hill climb continues.

That's because--as you state--it's not just that there is freedom to possess a gun, but glory and fulfillment in the possession.  People have their egos wrapped up in gun ownership.  It's an extension of their perception of themselves.  They can use their guns to impose their will.

They call that 'independent spirit' or 'self-reliance' or even 'self-confidence' and 'certitude', but in the end it's only trouble.  You shoot someone, you have a 50-50 chance or better of going down yourself.  But hey, it's who those rednecks believe they are.

i am afraid any chance you had of curbing the gun problem in America flew by many many years ago
they are to many guns already out there and we are not talking shotguns and handguns we a talking "bonifdi" weapons of war

If you tried you end up one very short step from civil insurrection certain groups will go nuts

korban dallas wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

I agree with you.  Those who think that simply making guns more difficult to own are underestimating the magnitude of the problem.  It's a start, but the up-hill climb continues.

That's because--as you state--it's not just that there is freedom to possess a gun, but glory and fulfillment in the possession.  People have their egos wrapped up in gun ownership.  It's an extension of their perception of themselves.  They can use their guns to impose their will.

They call that 'independent spirit' or 'self-reliance' or even 'self-confidence' and 'certitude', but in the end it's only trouble.  You shoot someone, you have a 50-50 chance or better of going down yourself.  But hey, it's who those rednecks believe they are.

i am afraid any chance you had of curbing the gun problem in America flew by many many years ago
they are to many guns already out there and we are not talking shotguns and handguns we a talking "bonifdi" weapons of war

If you tried you end up  one very short step from civil insurrection certain groups will go nuts

Absolutely.  That's the bottom-line of my point.  It's not just the availability of guns; it's the passion and love for them that Americans have.

I'm not quite as pessimistic as you KD, but I do see that mere gun-control laws will not suffice.  First, the kinds of guns that are available won't guarantee political independence; the other guys have tanks and aircraft.  Second, if you resort to use of guns, you will still have the same problem you have with ISIL (for example)...who's the bad guy?

Guns are great instruments for self-expression, but not very good for sorting things out.

I do like to shoot, particularly shotguns nowadays, I only go about 30/35 times a year and do about 100 shots per visit on clays a lot less on pheasants.
Nice looking weapons do have an attraction to some people, I like to see/handle high end shotguns.

Stormee wrote:I do like to shoot, particularly shotguns nowadays, I only go about 30/35 times a year and do about 100 shots per visit on clays a lot less on pheasants.
Nice looking weapons do have an attraction to some people, I like to see/handle high end shotguns.

I'm actually not describing an aficionado of firearms. I'm describing a piece of American ideology, reinforced by TV, the western genre and cops and robbers. Good and bad. Right and wrong. The way people make sense of their world.

Americans associate guns with making things right.

Stormee, would you like a matched pair of Purdy's, cased?

nicko wrote:Stormee,  would you like a matched pair of Purdy's,  cased?

Most shooters would be proud to have a nice matched real pair of Purdy's, nicko yes yes yes.
At my time of life I would auction them off in London and send money to MacMillan, my fav charity.

Original Quill wrote:

korban dallas wrote:
i am afraid any chance you had of curbing the gun problem in America flew by many many years ago
they are to many guns already out there and we are not talking shotguns and handguns we a talking "bonifdi" weapons of war

If you tried you end up  one very short step from civil insurrection certain groups will go nuts

Absolutely.  That's the bottom-line of my point.  It's not just the availability of guns; it's the passion and love for them that Americans have.

I'm not quite as pessimistic as you KD, but I do see that mere gun-control laws will not suffice.  First, the kinds of guns that are available won't guarantee political independence; the other guys have tanks and aircraft.  Second, if you resort to use of guns, you will still have the same problem you have with ISIL (for example)...who's the bad guy?

Guns are great instruments for self-expression, but not very good for sorting things out.

I was going for realistic

the second amendment grants the right to bear arms (at the time a legitimate law) however there is no reason that law can not be amended

How about

your have the right to bear arms
with the exception of weapons of war (see weapons of war classification index(fictitious list)) and tactical equipment that affects multiple targets explosives mines ect

Real Christmas Card from Nevada State Rep:

sassy wrote:Real Christmas Card from Nevada State Rep:

That turns my stomach.

It would turn the stomach of any burglar!

Who would presumably be armed as well.....blood bath alert.

Blood bath yes,    on the robbers side.

That's impossible to say. I imagine if a thief has the mindset to enter someones home armed, he would also have the mindset to shoot.

But regarding that pic, having small children posing with a family armed up to the eyeballs....for a Christmas card, when Christmas is supposed to be a time of peace, is imo sickening.

korban dallas wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Absolutely.  That's the bottom-line of my point.  It's not just the availability of guns; it's the passion and love for them that Americans have.

I'm not quite as pessimistic as you KD, but I do see that mere gun-control laws will not suffice.  First, the kinds of guns that are available won't guarantee political independence; the other guys have tanks and aircraft.  Second, if you resort to use of guns, you will still have the same problem you have with ISIL (for example)...who's the bad guy?

Guns are great instruments for self-expression, but not very good for sorting things out.

I was going for realistic

the second amendment grants the right to bear arms (at the time a legitimate law) however there is no reason that law can not be amended

How about

your have the right to bear arms
with the exception of weapons of war (see weapons of war classification index(fictitious list)) and tactical equipment that affects multiple targets explosives mines ect

How on earth do you get an amendment movement going when you have the majority of Americans convinced that guns are a fun or desirable thing. The nearest thing I can compare it to is prohibition...and you saw what happened there.

Syl wrote:That's impossible to say. I imagine if a thief has the mindset to enter someones home armed, he would also have the mindset to shoot.

But regarding that pic, having small children posing with a family armed up to the eyeballs....for a Christmas card, when Christmas is supposed to be a time of peace, is imo sickening.

Spot on. Wish I could like this more than once.

Here are some more scary numbers -- more than 30 Americans are shot and killed on the average day. Of the 335 days in 2015 up to Dec. 1, there was a shooting that injured or killed at least four people on 209 days.

Nobody in their right mind thinks that controlling guns (background checks, ammo limits, assault weapons bans) will eliminate homicide and terrorism. The goal is to reduce the amount of homicide and terrorism.

Nobody thinks seatbelts and airbags prevent all car accident deaths, but they do reduce them, and that's a good thing.

Ben_Reilly wrote:Here are some more scary numbers -- more than 30 Americans are shot and killed on the average day. Of the 335 days in 2015 up to Dec. 1, there was a shooting that injured or killed at least four people on 209 days.

Nobody in their right mind thinks that controlling guns (background checks, ammo limits, assault weapons bans) will eliminate homicide and terrorism. The goal is to reduce the amount of homicide and terrorism.

Nobody thinks seatbelts and airbags prevent all car accident deaths, but they do reduce them, and that's a good thing.

Right ben, but to play devil's advocate for a second: Why all the homicides? Don't you think a lot of them are lack of impulse control? Spur-of-the-moment anger, coupled with the availability of a gun...don't you think that if the gun wasn't available, the anger might be given a moment to subside. I mean...a lot of those statistics you quote are incidents where it wasn't planned.

Original Quill wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Here are some more scary numbers -- more than 30 Americans are shot and killed on the average day. Of the 335 days in 2015 up to Dec. 1, there was a shooting that injured or killed at least four people on 209 days.

Nobody in their right mind thinks that controlling guns (background checks, ammo limits, assault weapons bans) will eliminate homicide and terrorism. The goal is to reduce the amount of homicide and terrorism.

Nobody thinks seatbelts and airbags prevent all car accident deaths, but they do reduce them, and that's a good thing.

Right ben, but to play devil's advocate for a second: Why all the homicides?  Don't you think a lot of them are lack of impulse control?  Spur-of-the-moment anger, coupled with the availability of a gun...don't you think that if the gun wasn't available, the anger might be given a moment to subside.  I mean...a lot of those statistics you quote are incidents where it wasn't planned.

I agree, it should be at least as hard to own a gun as to own a car -- actually, probably a lot harder. The purpose of a car isn't to kill, after all

I like the idea that everyone buying a gun should be put on a federal register for six months after the purchase. Eventually they get their privacy back, but in the heat of the moment they'll know they can be tracked down.

I admire your thinking Ben, but, there are an estimated 40 million weapons in the hands of Americans. You just can't go in and take them. Many thousands would fight with their weapons to stop you. Their would be an awful lot of dead people. The only way out is to ban the future sale of all guns,and I can't see that happening can you?

nicko wrote:It would turn the stomach of any burglar!

LOL
Down here they just made themselves a target to be home invaded As those Guns are so Valuable on the black market.

None of those guns do any good when there is already one pointed to the kids head, and they didn't know the there was an incident UNTIL the gun is pointed at the kids head.

If Police Officers and Armed Security Guards are targets for Theft Because of the firearm they have.. the whole idea that guns make a family safer are laughable