We Need to Talk About Islam’s Jihadism Problem

First topic message reminder :

It’s time to confront Islamism head on—without cries of Islamophobia. Holding Islam up to scrutiny, rationally and ethically, must not be confused with anti-Muslim bigotry.

Ours was an inauspicious first meeting. Nawaz, a former Muslim extremist turned liberal reformer, had just participated in a public debate about the nature of Islam. Though he had spent five years in an Egyptian prison for attempting to restore a medieval “caliphate,” Nawaz argued in favor of the motion that night, affirming that Islam is, indeed, “a religion of peace.” Harris, a well-known atheist and strident critic of Islam, had been in the audience. At a dinner later that evening, Harris was asked to comment on the event. He addressed his remarks directly to Nawaz:

Nawaz: Are you calling me a liar?

Harris: What?

Nawaz: Are you calling me a liar?

It was good that we weren’t seated at the same table, because we were now more apes than scholars. The conversation ended abruptly, and with bad feelings. Happily, the room quickly erupted with dozens of parallel conversations, diffusing the tension. Talking about Islam today is a dangerous business. Disagreements about the role this religion plays in the world have become a wellspring of intolerance and violence. Cartoonists have been massacred in Paris to shouts of “We have avenged the Prophet!” Secular bloggers have been hacked to death in Bangladesh. Embassies have burned over YouTube videos. And young men and women by the thousands have abandoned their lives in free societies to join the apocalyptic savagery of ISIS. For years, Western politicians and commentators have struggled to understand this phenomenon. And many have struggled not to understand it, denying any link between “Muslim extremism” and the religion of Islam.

Honest conversation about the need for reform within Islam has become a necessity. So we began our dialogue anew, and initial doubts about each other’s integrity and motives were soon replaced by mutual trust and respect. Neither of us would have imagined having such a productive conversation with the other 10 years ago. The result is now a short book, Islam and the Future of Tolerance. What most discussions of “Muslim extremism” miss, and what is obfuscated at every turn by commentators like Glenn Greenwald, Reza Aslan, Karen Armstrong—and even Nicholas Kristof and Ben Affleck—is the power of specific religious ideas such as martyrdom, apostasy, blasphemy, prophecy, and honor. These ideas do not represent the totality of Islam, but neither are they foreign to it. Nor do they exist in precisely the same way in other faiths. There is a reason why no one is losing sleep over the threat posed by Jain and Quaker “extremists.” Specific doctrines matter.

Since 9/11, the whole focus of the international community has been on destroying terrorist organizations like al Qaeda and ISIS, as if they were mere criminal gangs that needed to be disrupted operationally. The briefest survey of the state of the world, from North Africa to the North-West Frontier, demonstrates that this strategy has failed, abysmally.
The underlying ideology—we call it “Islamism”—has metastasized and must be confronted directly. After more than a decade of conventional, physical wars, we must finally wage an effective war of ideas. Islamism, often referred to as “political Islam,” is the desire to impose a version of Islam on the rest of society. Political Islamists, like the Muslim Brotherhood, generally do not believe in resorting to violence, though there are different attitudes even among Brotherhood franchises toward democratic participation, ranging from post-Islamists like the Ennadha Party in Tunisia, to semi-authoritarian conservatives, like South-Asia’s Jamat-e-Islami. “Jihadism,” on the other hand, is the use of force to spread Islamism.

Political Islam is an offshoot of religious Islam and draws much of its inspiration from the Quran and the hadith (the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad). To be sure, it does not represent the faith in all its forms, but unless challenged, the underlying problems of religious literalism, dogmatism, and pious intolerance are left untreated and continue to spread. A poll in 2014, published in the Saudi-owned newspaper al-Hayat, found that 92 percent of Saudis believe that ISIS “conforms to the values of Islam and Islamic law.” Clearly, ISIS has something to do with Islam. That something is borne of a literalist reading of specific texts within the canon, a reading that many Saudi-based Salafists (a literalist movement that forms state-sanctioned Islam in Saudi Arabia) and ISIS share:

“And as for the male and female thief, cut off their hands as recompense for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.” (al-Qur’an 5:38)


Of course, the Bible contains barbaric passages, as well. But there are historical and theological reasons why Christians and Jews can now easily ignore them. Unfortunately, out of excessive concern not to appear biased, many liberals consider any discussion of the special problem posed by Islamism to be a sign of bigotry. This attitude helps bar the door to reform. To call ISIS “un-Islamic,” as President Obama has repeatedly done, and as Prime Minister Cameron recently stopped doing, is to play a dangerous game with words. Calling out and combating the ideology of Islamism is the only way that non-Muslims can help those liberal Muslims who wish to reform their faith from within. And failing to do so means abandoning the most vulnerable in Muslim communities—women, gays, apostates, freethinkers, and intellectuals—people like Nobel Peace Prize nominee Raif Badawi, who is being lashed in Saudi Arabia for the “crime” of writing a blog.

We do not entirely agree on how, and how fully, religion should be subjected to criticism in our society, but we both believe that merely repeating platitudes like “Islam is a religion of peace,” despite evidence that many zealots see it as a religion of war, blurs the line between truly peaceful and tolerant Muslims and those who aspire to drag humanity back to the seventh century. Holding Islam up to scrutiny, rationally and ethically, must not be confused with anti-Muslim bigotry. Cries of “Islamophobia,” which have become ubiquitous on college campuses and in much of the liberal press, have been used to silence legitimate criticism. In an open society, no idea can be above scrutiny, just as no people should be beneath dignity.

We can testify to the power of honest dialogue on these topics. Though we initially met under circumstances that were overtly hostile, we pressed forward with civility and ended in genuine friendship. Without this type of engagement, the only alternative we see is continued intolerance and violence. And we have all seen far too much of that already.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/15/we-need-to-talk-about-islam-s-jihad-problem.html

Tommy Monk wrote:9 years old is definately a peado...

it is TODAY tommy - it wasn't back then

problem is that many Muslims still think that it applies today because mohammed's example is perfect and to be emulated without taking into consideration that laws and societies have changed and moved on

gelico again wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:9 years old is definately a peado...

it is TODAY tommy - it wasn't back then

problem is that many Muslims still think that it applies today because mohammed's example is perfect and to be emulated without taking into consideration that laws and societies have changed and moved on

You miss the point, if he is meant to be a prophet of a god, it does not matter whether it was for the time, you have a deity that allows such marriages. Yes the problem is that some Muslims look to emulate Muhammad, but they do not question the validity of hadiths, works not collatted until centuries after he lived. Not only that the same author of some of these hadiths, has collated hadiths that conflict with her age. The biggest problem in Islam is they elevate the hadiths to basically suras of Muhammad, when the only suras that should count are the suras of allah. Most of the problems stem from hadiths, that Muslims take as divine through claims to acts Muhammad did. They have one book which is all they need the Quran, by using other works, they make the Quran incomplete and thus not a perfect book as the word of their deity is questionable to the deeds of Muhammad. If its in the Quran that is all they need, but they wrongly use the hadiths and make the Quran no longer a claim to being a perfect book. They nullify its claim to being complete and perfect, as they should have no need of other works, as its meant to be complete and perfect.

What s pickle eh??

The Quran written before Muhammad was alive and the hadith written after his death

It would appear that Muhammad was always dead when Islam was being formed

Cuchulain wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Lol! Make things up. Another accusation Mentor and Smelly threw at Muslims. How long before you accuse me of taqiyah?

And by your logically analysis, it seems quite clear you have no idea about jurisprudence and how it works.

You are the on making things up
How can a command from your deity mean only for a time, are you saying Allah is now wrong.
Did he specify that this command was meant only for this group of Jews?
Even then it means a group of jews are to be viewed that way, then it is for all time
You are the one making up things to excuse the barbairty in the Quran

If you really have to emulate me Walter

Do some.fucking research and don't look the ----

smelly-bandit wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:


You are the on making things up
How can a command from your deity mean only for a time, are you saying Allah is now wrong.
Did he specify that this command was meant only for this group of Jews?
Even then it means a group of jews are to be viewed that way, then it is for all time
You are the one making up things to excuse the barbairty in the Quran

If you really have to emulate me Walter

Do some.fucking research and don't look the ----

Not sure i cam elevate you from dog shit Duthcman, that takes such stretch of the imagination.

So grouchy

Look, apparently I'm not the only one who has noticed your change of tune

But there is only one smelly-bandit ,and it ain't you

smelly-bandit wrote:So grouchy

Look, apparently I'm not the only one who has noticed your change of tune

But there is only one smelly-bandit ,and it ain't you

You have been a way a long time and anyway my views are removed from yours
I look for Islam to progress.
For one to do away with the hadiths, as they render the quran not perfect and incomplete.
This will go a long way to stopping many beliefs that criminalize aspects in islam and punishments.
I am for backing moderate Muslims and bringing secularism to the Muslim world so people can have equal rights.
Your views is to fear Muslims and Islam, I do not.

Your views are taken from mine

Everyone can see it but you (surprise surprise)

smelly-bandit wrote:Your views are taken from mine

Everyone can see it but you (surprise surprise)

Wrong, they are taken from people far more expert than you.
Your arguments even today are poor because you cannot articulate them, which has always been your problem.

Sure Walter

Hey I'm not bothered if I'm your mentor. Just wish you listened to me a lot more

I could have taught you so much if you weren't so childish and rebellious

smelly-bandit wrote:Sure Walter

Hey I'm not bothered if I'm your mentor. Just wish you listened to me a lot more

I could have taught you so much if you weren't so childish and rebellious

I do not think so my boy, I had to even educate you on Israel how to argue and you still acted the wally.
You have known very little dutchman and always will, but the fact is its you that is immature.
Never mind my boy

Go with my blessings Walter but be careful not to operate under the smelly-bandit banner

You're not ready for THAT yet

lol you will always be in my shadow Dutchman, which has always been your problem

Hey Walter tell us about how Islam teaches that a pantheon of gods exists??

Always my fav

That was your line ducthman or the time you thought I wrote something and then went on for pages until you realized you cocked up/
Always living in the past you are ducthman, scarping any little moral victory, which proves you are always in my shadow

Cuchulain wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:Didge are friggin serious?

I Quote
but to say Jews are the most violent is complete nonsense

lolololol

you have a lot to learn then my friend EVERYTHING is because of them.

You don't agree well tough cause that's the truth.

Hence why I said lets look at the ROOT of the problem. Why did these attacks happen recently from 2000 onwards?

I know what you are going to come out with so I will save you the trouble. Wahabishism?

Read into it Didge and I don't mean bias literature.

Adios gota go catch u later

Very poor counter

Does not get much more antisemitic than that, so now everything ios because of the Jews?
WTF
Now I fully understand the hatred of the Jews is because Muslims are clearly spouting hate against them and know nothing of its history, so you show me how they are behind everything and I will give you a proper lesson in hsitory and not some apologist Muslim bullshit you have been taught. Just like the other day you got tied up in knots over how many minorities have formed nations, where you never denied any of them having one except Israel. You never disproved anything I said on the Jews.
So show me the history of the Jews compared to Christians/Mulsims?
Seriously, you want to ridicule me on history, be my guest, but I guarntee you will end up looking very silly.

Why have these attacks been happenning before 9/11 sexy?
You see this is the apologist nonsense Muslims are spouting not recobnising problems from within Islam.
That they claims its the Wests fault. The west has played a part but the problems stem from within the religion itself and how it is justified to commit terror. Wahhabist have been since its creating killing other Muslims and Non Muslims, you might want to learn their history as I have,

So please spare me that really immature reply sexy, I have researched history and theology and understand many root core problems, one being Iraq has its roots back to the uprisng against Saddam in 1991 by the Kurds and Shias.
Another reason we see a rise in these attacks, is the fear of the religion losing its control on power.
Seriously all you did was divert from the points and then claim bias, when with history we read and research many sources. No wonder there is so much problems when Muslims are looking to deny responsibility within their own faith and look to scapegoat the Jews.
How many times in history has that happened?

Calm down Didge.

I haven't once 'ridiculed' you on History just that you read bias literature on a few subjects ( Palestine and now Whabisim)

I didn't mean the Jews per se but the Zionists. Who were formed in late 18th century and have caused a lot of this. Yes I know you will deny this and im not surprised.

I know the people of my faith have commented atrocities and im always the first to condemn them. So i dont understand where I have DENIED anything! I told you to look at the ROOT of the problem.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:

Very poor counter

Does not get much more antisemitic than that, so now everything ios because of the Jews?
WTF
Now I fully understand the hatred of the Jews is because Muslims are clearly spouting hate against them and know nothing of its history, so you show me how they are behind everything and I will give you a proper lesson in hsitory and not some apologist Muslim bullshit you have been taught. Just like the other day you got tied up in knots over how many minorities have formed nations, where you never denied any of them having one except Israel. You never disproved anything I said on the Jews.
So show me the history of the Jews compared to Christians/Mulsims?
Seriously, you want to ridicule me on history, be my guest, but I guarntee you will end up looking very silly.

Why have these attacks been happenning before 9/11 sexy?
You see this is the apologist nonsense Muslims are spouting not recobnising problems from within Islam.
That they claims its the Wests fault. The west has played a part but the problems stem from within the religion itself and how it is justified to commit terror. Wahhabist have been since its creating killing other Muslims and Non Muslims, you might want to learn their history as I have,

So please spare me that really immature reply sexy, I have researched history and theology and understand many root core problems, one being Iraq has its roots back to the uprisng against Saddam in 1991 by the Kurds and Shias.
Another reason we see a rise in these attacks, is the fear of the religion losing its control on power.
Seriously all you did was divert from the points and then claim bias, when with history we read and research many sources. No wonder there is so much problems when Muslims are looking to deny responsibility within their own faith and look to scapegoat the Jews.
How many times in history has that happened?

Calm down Didge.

I haven't once 'ridiculed' you on History just that you read bias literature on a few subjects ( Palestine and now Whabisim)

I didn't mean the Jews per se but the Zionists. Who were formed in late 18th century and have caused a lot of this. Yes I know you will deny this and im not surprised.

I know the people of my faith have commented atrocities and im always the first to condemn them. So i dont understand where I have DENIED anything! I told you to look at the ROOT of the problem.

I am calm, so spare me the patronising Sexy, it wont work.
You said Jews and the majority of Zionists are Jews where some are Christians, which is beside the point.
No what has caused many of these problems is the Arab nations not accepting the right of a minority people to form a nation just as we have seen many nations form as a minority people. Why is it only the Arabs nations do not accept this even though they themselves had nations form where they were a minority group within the Ottoman Empire?
So to say the Jews or Zionists are the problem is scapegoating the Jews and how many times have we seen that happen in history?
I am not saying Israel is not without fault yes they are and the Settlements since its creation are wrong, but its time both the Palestinians and Israeli's recognised each others right to exist

smelly-bandit wrote:Your views are taken from mine

Everyone can see it but you (surprise surprise)

Lol!

smelly-bandit wrote:Go with my blessings Walter but be careful not to operate under the smelly-bandit banner

You're not ready for THAT yet

Don't be daft!

He is nothing like you.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:Go with my blessings Walter but be careful not to operate under the smelly-bandit banner

You're not ready for THAT yet

Don't be daft!

He is nothing like you.

nothing like my intelligence, i will give you that