Greek referendum: TV station polls put 'No' vote in the lead – live

http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/05/greeces-eurozone-future-in-the-balance-as-referendum-gets-under-way--eu-euro-bailout-live



1953: Greek finance minister signed treaty in London cancelling 50% of German debt, because it was right thing to do.

I hope they do vote no... then leave the dodgy euro that is the reason for their problems.


A one size fits all currency for so many vastly different countries and economies just does not And will not work... the euro Is grossly overvalued for some and undervalued for others creating extreme hardship for some while others are riding high on this at the others expense.


The wheels are falling off the euro and The corrupt EU dictatorship!!!


And if you believe all The biased BBC reports who constantly tell us the Greeks all want to stay in then you are very gullible...!

The IMF and the banking system is the cause of their problems. It's about time we put banks and bankers on trail as Iceland has done.

The euro is the cause of their problems... it is grossly overvalued for their country and economy.


http://angrybearblog.com/2014/12/the-german-euro-is-overvalued.html

Nope, the IMF etc refusing the restructure their debt, which is impossilbe for them to pay off over a short term.

Granted the Euro doesn't help, but it's not the cause.

Read the link... root cause...

its the fact they don't work that is the problem
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/unemployment-rate
Unemployment up around 25% 1 in 4 people don't work NO economy is going to last like that,

And even in the pre 2008 boom times they still had a rate over 10% which is double what is considered sustainable (approx 5%)

Lending them more money is pointless
they cannot pay it back as is, they have kept borrowing to pay pensions for decades after running out of money and not investing anything for the future.. Well like the junkie that spend all their money on meth Greece has to face the consequences of a wasteful lifestyle with no thought for the future.

IF Europe keeps bailing out Greece All of Europe will fall.

Sorry Veya, but that is pathetic, the myth of the 'lazy' Greek. In actual fact they never had enough money to expand the economy and invest to produce jobs, which would have produced money that would have produced more jobs. They only every had enough to stay still and scrape around.

They are becoming increasingly unemployed because the euro is grossly overvalued for their economy and as a result they are uncompetitive as a trading nation plus the imposition of cuts to pay interest on the EU And euro dictated required loans has taken even more money out of their economy and made even more unemployed as a result.



A one size fits all currency across the vastly differing economies across Europe is like telling everyone they must have a one size fits all set of shoes and clothes!!!

and they spent it on pensions
rather than accept they were 3rd world and needed to invest even if that meant a generation had to suffer

what pretty much all of Asia did in the 80's and 90's
Most telling figures look at production versus Consumption for the EU
266,000 produced but 284,000 consumed


It is not a stereotype without justification Europe is lazy and Greece is amongst the laziest in Europe, a decade of consumption more than production has left it with nothing but debt.

With an overvalued currency their is little chance of any economic success... the EU is a one size fits all currency that doesn't fit all...



Simple as that really!

Tommy Monk wrote:With an overvalued currency their is little chance of any economic success... the EU is a one size fits all currency that doesn't fit all...

Simple as that really!

umm producing less in US Dollar value than you consume in US Dollar value is a problem that will exist regardless of what economic unit you use

it isn't that hard TM
Spend more than you earn and you have no money, if you keep borrowing money to make up the difference then you will have no money and a ton of debt... a.k.a where Greece is at now

Most economic activity is within a country... the outside economic activity is dependent on relative cost... this relative cost is determined by value of currency... if a currency is overvalued then the country cannot trade effectively outside... being fixed up with the euro which is an inflexible one size fits all currency, and which is overvalued for the country and economy... see above!!!



Add on the extra interest payments they are increasingly saddled with to "help" them stay in the madness...




If you lefties did economics you wouldn't be lefties!!!



Most of You only see one or two steps ahead of any consequences of any policy change or any other knee jerk reaction or any other decision...

well it has been a policy for over 25 years
the Euro only came in 1999 the trend was already very apparent in 1992.

So what caused it BEFORE the Euro even existed than Tommy?

Please elaborate the question...!?

Tommy Monk wrote:Please elaborate the question...!?

the Greek economy has followed a constant downward path since mid 80's
whatever factors that created the negative economy (no income but lots of spending) of Greece existed BEFORE the the Euro was introduced in 1999.
the Euro may not have help but it isn't the cause as it was already like that.

If economies where cars the Euro may have been a flat tire for Greece but as the engine was already broken So it is not going to make a difference they weren't going anywhere anyway .

And Considering they just voted NO don't fix the engine (by the long and slow process that is known to work) instead they are going to hope.. I dunno magic or something will fix their economy there is no short term fix Greeks took generation to get themselves into this mess and it will take generations to get out of

And it is not like Greece is the only one most of the Mediterranean nations are in similar positions

Are you saying that those really in charge, the EU, have been effectively ruining the Greek economy since before the euro...!!!???



What a surprise!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:Are you saying that those really in charge, the EU, have been effectively ruining the Greek economy since before the euro...!!!???
What a surprise!!!

You know you cant blame everything on the EU

the whole 10 to 25% unemployment thing
youth unemployment up to 60%
and significant pensions.
it is not possible to maintain the high cost low work Economy, in the 90's should have said hey we need to spend some of the money on Job creation not unemployment benefits and pensions.


they have constantly voted against lower level austerity in the past that could have prevented today.
AND really they have had the time to turn themselves around twice over but Choose to keep digging deeper
Literally nations like Malaysia and Singapore have gone from less than Greece to triple it or more Plus are economically positive (make more than they consume).
The Bulk of the world (Asia) is sick of a under-preforming lazy ass excuses coming out of Europe, Quite simply if the EU doesn't save Greece no one else will, happy to let them take their deserved place as a poverty stricken third world nation we have seen the slums of south east Asia improve
and the new slums will clearly be around the Mediterranean.

They were doing ok before the euro... and would be doing a hell of a lot better if they had stuck with their previous flexible and self determined currency... something a sovereign nation should always keep control of!

http://qz.com/440058/the-complete-history-of-the-greek-debt-drama-in-charts/

no they weren't they were crap all the way back in 82 (33 years ago)

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-102459204.html

11-15-2004
Dateline: ATHENS, Greece
Finance Minister George Alogoskoufis admitted Monday that Greece joined the euro after submitting inaccurate data, but EU officials said there was no danger of the nation being expelled from Europe's common currency.

"It has been proven that Greece's budget deficit never fell below 3 percent since 1999," Alogoskoufis said before heading to Brussels to attend a meeting later Monday with the 11 other members of the euro zone.

"We will have a very crucial meeting where we will clarify the budget deficit data," Alogoskoufis said.

And they admit to lying and faking economic figures to get into the Euro in the first place.


AND no it wouldn't make any difference it gave them a chance at a non-austerity recovery but they blew it on MORE pensions and unemployment benefits

JESUS Tommy do you think you can have ENDLESS Unemployment benefits just give wages to people that are too lazy to work Don't you argue against doing that in the UK because it would end up making you broke?

Don't you normally argue for it...!?

I argue for What MY nation can afford, But it is still less than Greece is handing out and we is rich Biytch

The UK does need to look at reducing benefits or Restructuring benefits too, although it is not in anywhere near as bad shape as Greece. the Uk is still earning less than it did and cannot afford the largesse it did previously unless it can find and efficiency to offset the cost

What a good job nobody in UK listened to that kind of 'economics' after WWII, we'd still be up the creek.

sassy wrote:Nope, the IMF etc refusing the restructure their debt, which is impossilbe for them to pay off over a short term.

Granted the Euro doesn't help, but it's not the cause.

the cause is greece wanting a german lifestyle without a german work ethic.

that and the fact the greeks and the EU colluded in getting a corrupt country into the euro at any cost.

glad to see you and others have realised that the Euro project is a failure though

sassy wrote:Sorry Veya, but that is pathetic, the myth of the 'lazy' Greek.  In actual fact they never had enough money to expand the economy and invest to produce jobs, which would have produced money that would have produced more jobs.   They only every had enough to stay still and scrape around.

greeks made no paying tax into an art form.
Your conversion to tax evasion is astonishing

I thought that there was a stringent criteria concerning the economic stability and wealth etc of a country before admittance to the EU?
No?

The reason for the push of the euro onto other countries is simple... if you control the currency you control the country...

sassy wrote:Sorry Veya, but that is pathetic, the myth of the 'lazy' Greek.  In actual fact they never had enough money to expand the economy and invest to produce jobs, which would have produced money that would have produced more jobs.   They only every had enough to stay still and scrape around.

I've been to Greece a few times, I was there on a holiday for a bout four weeks a few years back. I got chatting to a lot of locals and they basically predicted this!

I remember one guy saying that "Greece was poor yet the Greeks were rich"
Never really understood what he meant tbh.

Did no one notice when in Greece you bought something from a shop the money did not go into the till, it was thrown into a pot or tray beside the till! No wonder the government didn't get what was owed.

sassy wrote:What a good job nobody in UK listened to that kind of 'economics' after WWII, we'd still be up the creek.

YOU ARE STILL UP THE CREEK

I mean Seriously The growth the UK has had since WW2 is poor, YES is is OK next to Europe but in case you hadn't noticed Asia has grown at double that or more.
Historically it will be considered the decline of the Europe, especially sine 1970's
If they continue the POOR economic management they have since WW2 it will be the century Europe became a Continent in poverty

Economics are not just about growth. They are also about producting better living facilities, better education, better infrastructure, better healthcare etc etc, After WWII London was a building site after all the bombing, as were many other cities. People were living in slums that hadn't changed much from the Victorian times. From 1949 onwards, the growth was in these things, that in term produced a healthier nation, with decent homes and schooling. That's where we 'grew' and where we need to grow again.

that is exactly the Problem the UK view it like "ohh something happened we do something then stop", while Asia/Oceania/America is going this is life we constantly are building new.

All of Europe is too focused of Tradition and treats progress like something that is occasional instead of constant.

I'm sorry Veya, but that is simply rubbish. The economies of the world simply cannot carry on expanding. Their expansion actually depends on 'things', for example minerals for certain processes, oil, gas, etc etc and there is not a never ending supply of them, and when the supply is getting low they get more difficult and more expensive to get to. A small sustained growth is much better than fluctuations. People have been brainwashed into thinking that growth is the only objective. There are many more to make a decent life for people and growth is not the only priority.

I like the thinking of this man:

Countries' economies are driven by an obsession, continuous growth in the country's Gross Domestic Product (GDP). The absurdity of this becomes clear with a little bit of thought. Never-ending growth that relies on extracting resources from a finite planet is, of course, a mathematical impossibility, but well before we reach that point, this obsession will render our planet uninhabitable.

If our concern is the well-being of our citizens, is GDP the appropriate indicator of that?
GDP is defined (Wikipedia) as "the market value of all officially recognized final goods and services produced within a country in a given period of time." This implies that a cleaning-up operation after an environmental disaster for example gives a boost to GDP.

Dan O'Neill of the Centre for the Advancement of Steady State Economics (CASSE) makes the point that many bad things such as family breakdown, wars, and environmental disasters contribute to GDP, but good things, where no money is exchanged, do not, such as volunteering.

Research shows that while in developing countries there is a strong correlation between GDP per capita and people's well-being, in developed countries, such as Western Europe and the US, such a correlation no longer applies. For example, in the US and UK GDP per capita has tripled since 1945, but perception of happiness amongst the population has since flat-lined.

In a previous article on the Huffington Post I attempted to explain the destructiveness and stupidity of our economic growth obsession with these words:

"If we insist that western economies must continue to grow year after year for poor people even to have the basics for life, and since we know that only little of the wealth created trickles down, then before too long we will end up devouring the whole planet. Of course, well before we reach that point, we will have degraded our environment to the point where life becomes unsustainable for all of us, rich and poor, and certainly for future generations."

So where do we go from here? Steady-State Economics present us with an alternative to continuous growth economics. Rob Dietz and Dan O'Neill in their book "Enough is Enough" define a steady-state economy thus:

"At its simplest, a steady-state economy is an economy that aims to maintain a stable level of resource consumption and a stable population. It's an economy in which material and energy use are kept within ecological limits, and in which the goal of increasing GDP is replaced by the goal of improving quality of life ... It prioritizes well-being above consumption, and long-term health above short-term gains ... It promises that the transformation of the economic system from growth to stability, from more to enough, would allow us to solve critical environmental problems while maintaining (or even improving) quality of life"

More at http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/adnan-aldaini/the-madness-of-neverendin_b_3990917.html

"At its simplest, a steady-state economy is an economy that aims to maintain a stable level of resource consumption and a stable population. It's an economy in which material and energy use are kept within ecological limits, and in which the goal of increasing GDP is replaced by the goal of improving quality of life ... It prioritizes well-being above consumption, and long-term health above short-term gains ... It promises that the transformation of the economic system from growth to stability, from more to enough, would allow us to solve critical environmental problems while maintaining (or even improving) quality of life"


As just posted by sassy with claim of support...



However...

Lefties also support mass immigration, the huge building of infrastructure to accommdate this, huge borrowing and interest repayments to pay for it, the increased use of natural resources and building materials and energy use, further deterioration of our natural environment/ecology and arable land, further detriment to our quality of life, consumption increasing while well being decreasing, long term health also worsening, more reliance on imports to support this, all at cost to trade deficit and adversely affecting GDP and subsequently (and 'progressively') weakening our economy and lowering our quality of life...!!!

@sassy
And that is why you are the past

Solar panels alone allow us to make from nothing but sun light, as much value today is digital as the Physical.
Knowledge, New designs, industrial engineers, genetic engineering, seeking efficiency. these things do not rely on materials.

To continue As has been is death to the planet ANOTHER generation cannot live like baby boomers did, WE NEED EFFICIENCY, WE NEED what is new we need to Stop listening to dinosaurs that talk about the pre-digital age like it means anything today we cannot go backwards without death and we cannot stop without going backward, the only course of action available is to go forward IF we have not worked out a way off this rock by my grand-children's time there wont be a time for my great grandchildren

veya_victaous wrote:@sassy
And that is why you are the past


Solar panels alone allow us to make from nothing but sun light, as much value today is digital as the Physical.
Knowledge, New designs, industrial engineers, genetic engineering, seeking efficiency. these things do not rely on materials.

Wrong... all require heavy mineral/material resources and huge energy costs to extract, transport, refine, process, manufacture, package, redistribute, retail, install, run, maintain etc...

To continue As has been is death to the planet ANOTHER generation cannot live like baby boomers did, WE NEED EFFICIENCY, WE NEED what is new we need to Stop listening to dinosaurs that talk about the pre-digital age like it means anything today we cannot go backwards without death and we cannot stop without going backward, the only course of action available is to go forward IF we have not worked out a way off this rock by my grand-children's time there wont be a time for my great grandchildren  

This 'rock' as you call it... is a living, breathing, life giving and life sustaining giant of natural lovelyness!!!



But quickly being turned into the 'rock' you complain about by exactly the behaviour you advocate more of!!!



Yeah.. let's rip the arse out of it and build a load of relatively useless shit at enormous cost, polution and detriment of our planet... because the planet is being ruined by people ripping the arse out of it...!?



I actually agree with the bit of sassy's article I highlighted earlier... but was also highlighting how it was completely at odds with leftie agenda...

Ok so lets keep wasting the resource like people have been for 60 years
NO ONE burned more shit than baby boomer NO ONE will ever burn as much shit as the baby boomer because there is not enough left to Burn. And so many more people to split it between

Tommy You are only looking at your life time, everyone past that is still fucked because we are still consuming finite resource with NO EXIT Plan we will run out soon We need More planets under human control.

AND no educating people to be more efficient and less wasteful does not cost raw resources. Sydney has reduced it fresh water consumption by over 30% in less than 2 decades while increasing population almost 50% SO Proof we are Looking for and Implementing efficiencies to make the most of the resource we have to get more out every resource and the MINIMIZE the waste.

Knowledge, New designs, industrial engineers, genetic engineering, seeking efficiency.

NOT a single one of these things needs non-renewable Physical resources!!!!


UK need to start learning from others YOU ARE NOT IN POSITION to tell people what works BECAUSE YOU DON'T WORK!!!

We are not going to stop because the UK(and Europe) cannot keep up.
I'll tell you what is the problem with the UK economy, the British voter! Both the LW and RW are stuck in past where the UK mattered, where the UK was in front, they don't live n reality where the UK in now playing catch up.

You are debating if it is possible to do, what others are already doing.

I have not heard a single non-European suggest the no vote was anything but economic suicide. the rest of the world just saw Greece say "we owe you money but we cant pay it back can we borrow some more." NO ONE is going to do business with Greece except to rip anything left of value out of it.

You are misinformed... maybe watching too many fantasy 'movies'...

Wow tommy, way to just throw in the towel :O

Veya is first complaining about the ripping arse out of planet and using up of finite resources, then arguing for the ripping arse out of planet to build more crap as we need more crap and ripping arse out of planet to save us from the planet being arse ripped to oblivion by all the arse ripping he advocates, then he argues that it's others who are advocating ripping arse and argues against wasting resources as we have been for last few decades... followed by the need to rip some more arse out of it to build more of the crap he was already claiming necessary...


You lefties are like goldfish in that you only think one or two steps ahead... your arguments frequently contradict your previous and subsequent arguments...




No matter... as long as all arguments are in pursuit of the same 'progressive' agenda...

@TM

thank fuck people like me exist and we all are not as narrow minded as You

WE have finite resources if we keep using them like you have all you life there will be no resources left within a 100 years. WE need to develop NEW system Which People like me DO! My nation HAS already been doing, we are getting 50% more output while using 30% less resources for the most valuable resource in Australia (given UK is different resource needs) many home in Sydney produce produce 3 to 5 Kw/h of solar power (we put solar panels on our roofs)

And Replacing the polluting destructive system for self sustaining ones is the OPPOSITE of crap you moron, Like I said non-argument We are already doing it and you are going backwards
Suck it, this is No theory this is real, Australia is gaining on the UK everyday because of it.


Don't care it you that will be living in a 3rd world nation unable to feed or power itself because you keep consuming the resources instead of using them to build new more efficient systems

You think we don't have solar panels and wind turbines etc...!?


Where do you think they come from...?


Just magically appear out of thin air!!!???

TM
and you think making them uses more power than the inefficiencies of maintaining the old for the next decade?

OR the fact that they don't require fuel?

You are an idiot Or maybe your Greek cause YOU HAVE NO FUCKING CLUE about reality or economics or resources or infrastructure OR anything really

Are you sure you not a Greek Politician  

YES TM YOU ARE A MORON AND THE PROBLEM. but it doesn't matter because Keep it up I really don't care if  the Uk becomes the next Greece.
Understand every year we get stronger you get weaker and you prove exactly what i say the issue is that Brits are Stuck in the past in some fantasy where they can continue what they are doing.

YOU could only EVER waste as much as you did because you were raping other nations which you cant any more, You cannot afford your life NOW and you think you can continue it in to the future.  great Greek thinking there          living on borrowed money and having to borrow more every year, lets keep things as they are instead of change...  Truly is All of Europe this retarded

http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/europe-warns-greece-time-is-running-out/story-fnu2pycd-1227432756303

GREECE yesterday became the first developed nation to default on a loan from the International Monetary Fund, missing a €1.6 billion ($A2.19 billion) repayment to the global crisis lender.

Greece joins the company of Zimbabwe, Somalia and Sudan in falling behind in its payments to the IMF. Zimbabwe was the last country to default in 2001, Somalia has been in arrears since 1987, and Sudan since 1984.

http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/where-are-they-now-greece-joins-zimbabwe-somalia-sudan-in-imf-default/story-e6frflo9-1227424742554

Defaulting on their loans went really good for... ohhh no that's right... they are now in even more abject poverty

Serious question: what can really happen to them if they refuse to pay?

You Are the moron veya...


Greece was better off before the euro and before the EU started pulling the govts strings.