Nelson Mandela dies

First topic message reminder :

South Africa's first black president and anti-apartheid icon Nelson Mandela has died, South Africa's president says.
Mr Mandela, 95, led South Africa's transition from white-minority rule in the 1990s, after 27 years in prison.
He had been receiving intense home-based medical care for a lung infection after three months in hospital.
In a statement on South African national TV, Mr Zuma said Mr Mandela had "departed" and was at peace.
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1918 Born in the Eastern Cape
1943 Joined African National Congress
1956 Charged with high treason, but charges dropped after a four-year trial
1962 Arrested, convicted of incitement and leaving country without a passport, sentenced to five years in prison
1964 Charged with sabotage, sentenced to life
1990 Freed from prison
1993 Wins Nobel Peace Prize
1994 Elected first black president
1999 Steps down as leader
2001 Diagnosed with prostate cancer
2004 Retires from public life
2005 Announces his son has died of an HIV/Aids-related illness
"Our nation has lost its greatest son," Mr Zuma said.
The Nobel Peace Prize laureate was one of the world's most revered statesmen after preaching reconciliation despite being imprisoned for 27 years.
He had rarely been seen in public since officially retiring in 2004.
"What made Nelson Mandela great was precisely what made him human. We saw in him what we seek in ourselves," Mr Zuma said.
"Fellow South Africans, Nelson Mandela brought us together and it is together that we will bid him farewell."
Earlier, the BBC's Mike Wooldridge, outside Mr Mandela's home in the Johannesburg suburb of Houghton, said there appeared to have been an unusually large family gathering.
Among those attending was family elder Bantu Holomisa,
A number of government vehicles were there during the evening as well, our correspondent says.
Since he was released from hospital, the South African presidency repeatedly described Mr Mandela's condition as critical but stable.
He was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1993 and was elected South Africa's first black president in 1994. He stepped down after five years in office.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-25249520

A truly great man! RIP

PhilDidge wrote:

Cantankerous wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Cantankerous wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Cantankerous wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Catman wrote:......What get's me is that the majority of these neanderthal RW idiots think that those that suffer persecutions should accept these persecutions and never fight back in any kind of way, they refuse to accept that the South African racist white government was responsible for the kidnap and murder of many innocent black people. 

Hear, hear! Defense of your country from invaders and conquerors is not terrorism, it's self-preservation. It kills me that people condemn Mandela and his party for fighting back; I wonder if we all got too accustomed to the MLK/Ghandi passive resistance and forgot that if someone is hitting you, it's OK to hit back.

so you are happy that 19 terrorists flew planes into buildings in 2001 after all they were only fighting back

So terrorists from not one nation but several were freedom fighters going to another nation not their own are by you classed in the same category as someone standing up to a racist Government from his own nation?
I never saw Bin laden look for reconciliation after the attacks did you?
Now did Mandela look for reconciliation even though both sides had done wrongs and only blacks had been executed or served sentences in Jail and nobody was convicted for their involvement in apartheid?
Sorry are you trying to make comparisons to two complete separate scenarios?

Maybe a better comparison would be the American Independence war with Mandela. Now do you class George Washington as a Terrorist?
I don't.

you see that's the point, terrorists commit terror to get what they want. The people they kill do not care why they are killed. Justify one, you have to justify them all.

Yes but people distinguish that some actions are a very different kettle of fish to what some do. The IRA for one committed endless terror campaign but in the end they came to reconciliation, just as happens after many conflicts. Nobody is trying to saying blowing up people is ever right, but the catalyst behind such events, is wrongs that have been done to these people. Now Al Qaeda has a goal to take over and create a world Caliphate and uses arguments of a belief they have of a mythical war against Islam, some in the west also believe the same, they are part of the same vicious circle of hate. What is more telling is when people stand united against violence and wish to broker a peace. Now Mandela no matter whether you believe he was a terrorist or not ( I have never seen any evidence or the fact he was never tried for any murder) upon years of serving a harsh punishment in Jail, of which he had served his time ( he paid his due), even though I believe he was innocent, wanted reconciliation and not revenge. That takes the makings of great man, who has grown up under being treated less than human, who watched while a whole generation was denied an education and segregated, watched blacks tortured and murdered for being nothing more than a different skin colour. He looked to reconcile a nation, not even bring any of those who committed crimes under apartheid to justice, that takes courage, more than many could ever do. So if you feel a man is a terrorist and you wish to claim he was not a good person, I challenge you to go through the same. Go through a whole life where your youth you were treated no better than an animal, where you were treated even worse in jail and all because of the colour of your skin, then come out and not feel hate for those who have done this to you. Then come back and tell me he is a terrorist, because he went through that and did not feel hate and he won over a nation and the world to his plight and brought down a Government.

When you achieve such greatness I will be happy to give you the same credit and praise where it is deserved

you are attempting to rationalise murder.
terrorist create terror. they kill PEOPLE.
the people they kill probably don't care that they have been blown to pieces by the correct type of terrorists.
mandela the man that left prison wanted reconciliation, mandela the man that went to prison was a very different man.
Placing bombs where civilians will be cannot be justified. If they are freedom fighters then they would be attacking government forces only, and not civilians. Terror is terror.
The IRA were terrorists, some still are.
they blew people to bits.
how are any dead irish or british people any different from the south africans blown to bits.
I wish the people earlier would post pictures of the victims of apartheid and terrorist bombings and we can then decide which is worst as if it is some sort of competition.

Yes we kill people in war it happens to this very day, we bomb people like today where there was a wedding and 13 innocent people were killed for no crime they committed, is that not a terrorist act by your logic also then. Again nobody has tried to justify any of the bombings or any or the crimes from both sides, but you look at only he as the terrorist, when the Apartheid Government was also committing terrorism by murder and torture, you only look at one side of the argument not both, when both sides did wrong and ignore this came about because apartheid treated people lesser than humans, something you are it seems unable to put your own mind into a similar situation.
Would you like pictures of all the beatings to deaths or blacks by the Apartheid government, would that also show again both who committed acts were wrong? So by your logic both sides were committing terrorist acts as they were both killing civilians and yet again we have seen countless civilians die throughout conflicts, should we thus by your logic not have reconciled with Japan or Germany?  

Yes try and actually see how you would cope under such oppression, because as of yet you only see some of the crimes, done, not the years of crimes committed against the blacks.
No killings are ever justified, including in war, because to have to kill someone you know something has gone too far. War is in itself a crime, so if you want to go down that road am happy to oblige on the wrongs of this also, so do you wish to constantly cast blame, whilst ignoring the plight of many others, because that is what you are doing,

Didge,you are right to pose the question again that keeps getting asked of those that condemn Mandela and no-one comes back with an answer that if the situation was reversed and black supremacists took control of this country and implemented draconian apartheid policies that introduced pass laws restricting the movement of the majority white population and where they could reside, which public transport services they could use and used lethal force to enforce it what would they do?

PhilDidge wrote:

Cantankerous wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Cantankerous wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Cantankerous wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Catman wrote:......What get's me is that the majority of these neanderthal RW idiots think that those that suffer persecutions should accept these persecutions and never fight back in any kind of way, they refuse to accept that the South African racist white government was responsible for the kidnap and murder of many innocent black people. 

Hear, hear! Defense of your country from invaders and conquerors is not terrorism, it's self-preservation. It kills me that people condemn Mandela and his party for fighting back; I wonder if we all got too accustomed to the MLK/Ghandi passive resistance and forgot that if someone is hitting you, it's OK to hit back.

so you are happy that 19 terrorists flew planes into buildings in 2001 after all they were only fighting back

So terrorists from not one nation but several were freedom fighters going to another nation not their own are by you classed in the same category as someone standing up to a racist Government from his own nation?
I never saw Bin laden look for reconciliation after the attacks did you?
Now did Mandela look for reconciliation even though both sides had done wrongs and only blacks had been executed or served sentences in Jail and nobody was convicted for their involvement in apartheid?
Sorry are you trying to make comparisons to two complete separate scenarios?

Maybe a better comparison would be the American Independence war with Mandela. Now do you class George Washington as a Terrorist?
I don't.

you see that's the point, terrorists commit terror to get what they want. The people they kill do not care why they are killed. Justify one, you have to justify them all.

Yes but people distinguish that some actions are a very different kettle of fish to what some do. The IRA for one committed endless terror campaign but in the end they came to reconciliation, just as happens after many conflicts. Nobody is trying to saying blowing up people is ever right, but the catalyst behind such events, is wrongs that have been done to these people. Now Al Qaeda has a goal to take over and create a world Caliphate and uses arguments of a belief they have of a mythical war against Islam, some in the west also believe the same, they are part of the same vicious circle of hate. What is more telling is when people stand united against violence and wish to broker a peace. Now Mandela no matter whether you believe he was a terrorist or not ( I have never seen any evidence or the fact he was never tried for any murder) upon years of serving a harsh punishment in Jail, of which he had served his time ( he paid his due), even though I believe he was innocent, wanted reconciliation and not revenge. That takes the makings of great man, who has grown up under being treated less than human, who watched while a whole generation was denied an education and segregated, watched blacks tortured and murdered for being nothing more than a different skin colour. He looked to reconcile a nation, not even bring any of those who committed crimes under apartheid to justice, that takes courage, more than many could ever do. So if you feel a man is a terrorist and you wish to claim he was not a good person, I challenge you to go through the same. Go through a whole life where your youth you were treated no better than an animal, where you were treated even worse in jail and all because of the colour of your skin, then come out and not feel hate for those who have done this to you. Then come back and tell me he is a terrorist, because he went through that and did not feel hate and he won over a nation and the world to his plight and brought down a Government.

When you achieve such greatness I will be happy to give you the same credit and praise where it is deserved

you are attempting to rationalise murder.
terrorist create terror. they kill PEOPLE.
the people they kill probably don't care that they have been blown to pieces by the correct type of terrorists.
mandela the man that left prison wanted reconciliation, mandela the man that went to prison was a very different man.
Placing bombs where civilians will be cannot be justified. If they are freedom fighters then they would be attacking government forces only, and not civilians. Terror is terror.
The IRA were terrorists, some still are.
they blew people to bits.
how are any dead irish or british people any different from the south africans blown to bits.
I wish the people earlier would post pictures of the victims of apartheid and terrorist bombings and we can then decide which is worst as if it is some sort of competition.

Yes we kill people in war it happens to this very day, we bomb people like today where there was a wedding and 13 innocent people were killed for no crime they committed, is that not a terrorist act by your logic also then. Again nobody has tried to justify any of the bombings or any or the crimes from both sides, but you look at only he as the terrorist, when the Apartheid Government was also committing terrorism by murder and torture, you only look at one side of the argument not both, when both sides did wrong and ignore this came about because apartheid treated people lesser than humans, something you are it seems unable to put your own mind into a similar situation.
Would you like pictures of all the beatings to deaths or blacks by the Apartheid government, would that also show again both who committed acts were wrong? So by your logic both sides were committing terrorist acts as they were both killing civilians and yet again we have seen countless civilians die throughout conflicts, should we thus by your logic not have reconciled with Japan or Germany?  

Yes try and actually see how you would cope under such oppression, because as of yet you only see some of the crimes, done, not the years of crimes committed against the blacks.
No killings are ever justified, including in war, because to have to kill someone you know something has gone too far. War is in itself a crime, so if you want to go down that road am happy to oblige on the wrongs of this also, so do you wish to constantly cast blame, whilst ignoring the plight of many others, because that is what you are doing,

so you equate an intelligence failure by the government with the acts of those who plant bombs in markets. The only person trying to justify the bombings appears to be you and a few others here.
I am condemning all those bombings committed by terrorists to bring terror to the populace.
they are indiscriminate and as such cannot be termed as anything but terrorism.
You are forgiving anything if it suits your agenda.
It was not the blowing up of people that brought down the apartheid system, it was negotiation.
why anyone would revel in the blowing up of woman and children for any cause is beyond me.
the buck stops here is an oft used term. As Mandela was part of the leadership at the time of the bombings then the buck stopped with him. Why you will not even acknowledge he holds some culpability is very unusual. It changes nothing about what he become whilst in prison, or what he did when he left which was truly remarkable. But to dismiss it or deny it is denying history

Cantankerous wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Cantankerous wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Cantankerous wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Cantankerous wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Catman wrote:......What get's me is that the majority of these neanderthal RW idiots think that those that suffer persecutions should accept these persecutions and never fight back in any kind of way, they refuse to accept that the South African racist white government was responsible for the kidnap and murder of many innocent black people. 

Hear, hear! Defense of your country from invaders and conquerors is not terrorism, it's self-preservation. It kills me that people condemn Mandela and his party for fighting back; I wonder if we all got too accustomed to the MLK/Ghandi passive resistance and forgot that if someone is hitting you, it's OK to hit back.

so you are happy that 19 terrorists flew planes into buildings in 2001 after all they were only fighting back

So terrorists from not one nation but several were freedom fighters going to another nation not their own are by you classed in the same category as someone standing up to a racist Government from his own nation?
I never saw Bin laden look for reconciliation after the attacks did you?
Now did Mandela look for reconciliation even though both sides had done wrongs and only blacks had been executed or served sentences in Jail and nobody was convicted for their involvement in apartheid?
Sorry are you trying to make comparisons to two complete separate scenarios?

Maybe a better comparison would be the American Independence war with Mandela. Now do you class George Washington as a Terrorist?
I don't.

you see that's the point, terrorists commit terror to get what they want. The people they kill do not care why they are killed. Justify one, you have to justify them all.

Yes but people distinguish that some actions are a very different kettle of fish to what some do. The IRA for one committed endless terror campaign but in the end they came to reconciliation, just as happens after many conflicts. Nobody is trying to saying blowing up people is ever right, but the catalyst behind such events, is wrongs that have been done to these people. Now Al Qaeda has a goal to take over and create a world Caliphate and uses arguments of a belief they have of a mythical war against Islam, some in the west also believe the same, they are part of the same vicious circle of hate. What is more telling is when people stand united against violence and wish to broker a peace. Now Mandela no matter whether you believe he was a terrorist or not ( I have never seen any evidence or the fact he was never tried for any murder) upon years of serving a harsh punishment in Jail, of which he had served his time ( he paid his due), even though I believe he was innocent, wanted reconciliation and not revenge. That takes the makings of great man, who has grown up under being treated less than human, who watched while a whole generation was denied an education and segregated, watched blacks tortured and murdered for being nothing more than a different skin colour. He looked to reconcile a nation, not even bring any of those who committed crimes under apartheid to justice, that takes courage, more than many could ever do. So if you feel a man is a terrorist and you wish to claim he was not a good person, I challenge you to go through the same. Go through a whole life where your youth you were treated no better than an animal, where you were treated even worse in jail and all because of the colour of your skin, then come out and not feel hate for those who have done this to you. Then come back and tell me he is a terrorist, because he went through that and did not feel hate and he won over a nation and the world to his plight and brought down a Government.

When you achieve such greatness I will be happy to give you the same credit and praise where it is deserved

you are attempting to rationalise murder.
terrorist create terror. they kill PEOPLE.
the people they kill probably don't care that they have been blown to pieces by the correct type of terrorists.
mandela the man that left prison wanted reconciliation, mandela the man that went to prison was a very different man.
Placing bombs where civilians will be cannot be justified. If they are freedom fighters then they would be attacking government forces only, and not civilians. Terror is terror.
The IRA were terrorists, some still are.
they blew people to bits.
how are any dead irish or british people any different from the south africans blown to bits.
I wish the people earlier would post pictures of the victims of apartheid and terrorist bombings and we can then decide which is worst as if it is some sort of competition.

Yes we kill people in war it happens to this very day, we bomb people like today where there was a wedding and 13 innocent people were killed for no crime they committed, is that not a terrorist act by your logic also then. Again nobody has tried to justify any of the bombings or any or the crimes from both sides, but you look at only he as the terrorist, when the Apartheid Government was also committing terrorism by murder and torture, you only look at one side of the argument not both, when both sides did wrong and ignore this came about because apartheid treated people lesser than humans, something you are it seems unable to put your own mind into a similar situation.
Would you like pictures of all the beatings to deaths or blacks by the Apartheid government, would that also show again both who committed acts were wrong? So by your logic both sides were committing terrorist acts as they were both killing civilians and yet again we have seen countless civilians die throughout conflicts, should we thus by your logic not have reconciled with Japan or Germany?  

Yes try and actually see how you would cope under such oppression, because as of yet you only see some of the crimes, done, not the years of crimes committed against the blacks.
No killings are ever justified, including in war, because to have to kill someone you know something has gone too far. War is in itself a crime, so if you want to go down that road am happy to oblige on the wrongs of this also, so do you wish to constantly cast blame, whilst ignoring the plight of many others, because that is what you are doing,

so you equate an intelligence failure by the government with the acts of those who plant bombs in markets. The only person trying to justify the bombings appears to be you and a few others here.
I am condemning all those bombings committed by terrorists to bring terror to the populace.
they are indiscriminate and as such cannot be termed as anything but terrorism.
You are forgiving anything if it suits your agenda.
It was not the blowing up of people that brought down the apartheid system, it was negotiation.
why anyone would revel in the blowing up of woman and children for any cause is beyond me.
the buck stops here is an oft used term. As Mandela was part of the leadership at the time of the bombings then the buck stopped with him. Why you will not even acknowledge he holds some culpability is very unusual. It changes nothing about what he become whilst in prison, or what he did when he left which was truly remarkable. But to dismiss it or deny it is denying history

Sorry but you are avoiding every issue thrown your way and still have not been able to answer what you would do in a similar situation. Now again all killing is wrong, there is never any justification for it, what I tried to show to you which you ignore of which has happened plenty of times in history is of people under oppression rising up and saying enough is enough. We call Winston Churchill a hero and he was, because he saved Britain in its finest hour, but his darkest was sending countless Brits to the death in Gallipoli, but he is remembered as a hero by many, though to some Australian maybe not. The point is where do you wanna draw the line with your argument, is now Bomber Harris a terrorist, because he undertook a bombing campaign which killed thousands of civilians? Is that what you think using your logic. Is Trueman a terrorist for dropping not one but two Atom Bombs? Your argument is so one sided it is only fixated on the killings done by the armed wing of the ANC, the Umkhonto we Sizwe, yet say nothing of any of the killings, torture and oppression these people were facing. This is not India with Ghandi, where millions out numbered the British and where many were serving in her armed forces, the blacks were segregated from all white society. You are also saying no nation should defend itself when at war, because to kill is wrong, but there is also such a thing as fighting for your freedoms. Now did any of bombings make a difference, no, they never did and will be a crime to stain those South African Blacks that committed them for what they did, there is no excuse for what they did, as there is not for the IRA, but you can only push humans so far, so much until they snap, they end up fighting fire with fire, atrocity with atrocity and there are no winners, just innocents dead. Yet all while this was going on Mandela had been in jail under sentence for sabotage. Did he order the bombings who knows, but who has ever come to justice for the crimes under apartheid? Nobody. You cannot justify an argument based on only one side, but looking at both sides and where both sides did wrong, but one man emerged to change the course of the country with reconciliation, when he like many others in such a situation would have no doubt been full of hate, he wasn't and neither were many there with him. He wanted a Free South Africa and stopped countless more innocents dying, because the country was on the verge of civil war and how many thousands do you think he saved.

Think about that point because he did save thousands from death, when civil war was close. Nobody is excusing any of the violence, I am explaining why violence happens, as I condemn murder and always have, and you need to understand the difference, as if I was speaking of any event in history of which I love, I give explanations behind why events happen, that is not an excuse or an apology, but an explanation. Your views are your own, but to understand something fully, you have to place your mind inside both sides of a conflict, though it is difficult because you are trying to capture some very extreme emotions, which we only have happened to us a few times in life, but for those under apartheid, it was an extreme emotion everyday, try thinking about that

Night

Irn Bru wrote:


Didge,you are right to pose the question again that keeps getting asked of those that condemn Mandela and no-one comes back with an answer that if the situation was reversed and black supremacists took control of this country and implemented draconian apartheid policies that introduced pass laws restricting the movement of the majority white population and where they could reside, which public transport services they could use and used lethal force to enforce it what would they do?

Good Evening Irn

Indeed, the point is being dragged to death over whether we condemn any bombings of which we all do, murder, is always condemn, but he does not want to understand how murder can sometimes happen, and feels it is an excuse, when it is an explanation of human nature, when pushed to the limits. Hence Cantankerous has not attempted to place himself in this position and thus wont understand what South Africa was once like.
I just want to answer that point and say what he would do under such extremes of emotions

All the best Irn and have a good evening

PhilDidge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:


Didge,you are right to pose the question again that keeps getting asked of those that condemn Mandela and no-one comes back with an answer that if the situation was reversed and black supremacists took control of this country and implemented draconian apartheid policies that introduced pass laws restricting the movement of the majority white population and where they could reside, which public transport services they could use and used lethal force to enforce it what would they do?

Good Evening Irn

Indeed, the point is being dragged to death over whether we condemn any bombings of which we all do, murder, is always condemn, but he does not want to understand how murder can sometimes happen, and feels it is an excuse, when it is an explanation of human nature, when pushed to the limits. Hence Cantankerous has not attempted to place himself in this position and thus wont understand what South Africa was once like.
I just want to answer that point and say what he would do under such extremes of emotions

All the best Irn and have a good evening

Indded Didge. The Truth & Reconcilliation Committe have been trying to rid the country of all this baggage of hate and recriminations but some people just want to keep stoking it up instead of recognising that there were some terrible things that happened under an evil and devisive regime that enforced its policies on a population under the barrel of guns.
Mandela never claimed to be a saint and gave up 27 years of his life in persuit of the rights of the people of South Africa.

PhilDidge wrote:

Cantankerous wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Cantankerous wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Cantankerous wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Cantankerous wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Catman wrote:......What get's me is that the majority of these neanderthal RW idiots think that those that suffer persecutions should accept these persecutions and never fight back in any kind of way, they refuse to accept that the South African racist white government was responsible for the kidnap and murder of many innocent black people. 

Hear, hear! Defense of your country from invaders and conquerors is not terrorism, it's self-preservation. It kills me that people condemn Mandela and his party for fighting back; I wonder if we all got too accustomed to the MLK/Ghandi passive resistance and forgot that if someone is hitting you, it's OK to hit back.

so you are happy that 19 terrorists flew planes into buildings in 2001 after all they were only fighting back

So terrorists from not one nation but several were freedom fighters going to another nation not their own are by you classed in the same category as someone standing up to a racist Government from his own nation?
I never saw Bin laden look for reconciliation after the attacks did you?
Now did Mandela look for reconciliation even though both sides had done wrongs and only blacks had been executed or served sentences in Jail and nobody was convicted for their involvement in apartheid?
Sorry are you trying to make comparisons to two complete separate scenarios?

Maybe a better comparison would be the American Independence war with Mandela. Now do you class George Washington as a Terrorist?
I don't.

you see that's the point, terrorists commit terror to get what they want. The people they kill do not care why they are killed. Justify one, you have to justify them all.

Yes but people distinguish that some actions are a very different kettle of fish to what some do. The IRA for one committed endless terror campaign but in the end they came to reconciliation, just as happens after many conflicts. Nobody is trying to saying blowing up people is ever right, but the catalyst behind such events, is wrongs that have been done to these people. Now Al Qaeda has a goal to take over and create a world Caliphate and uses arguments of a belief they have of a mythical war against Islam, some in the west also believe the same, they are part of the same vicious circle of hate. What is more telling is when people stand united against violence and wish to broker a peace. Now Mandela no matter whether you believe he was a terrorist or not ( I have never seen any evidence or the fact he was never tried for any murder) upon years of serving a harsh punishment in Jail, of which he had served his time ( he paid his due), even though I believe he was innocent, wanted reconciliation and not revenge. That takes the makings of great man, who has grown up under being treated less than human, who watched while a whole generation was denied an education and segregated, watched blacks tortured and murdered for being nothing more than a different skin colour. He looked to reconcile a nation, not even bring any of those who committed crimes under apartheid to justice, that takes courage, more than many could ever do. So if you feel a man is a terrorist and you wish to claim he was not a good person, I challenge you to go through the same. Go through a whole life where your youth you were treated no better than an animal, where you were treated even worse in jail and all because of the colour of your skin, then come out and not feel hate for those who have done this to you. Then come back and tell me he is a terrorist, because he went through that and did not feel hate and he won over a nation and the world to his plight and brought down a Government.

When you achieve such greatness I will be happy to give you the same credit and praise where it is deserved

you are attempting to rationalise murder.
terrorist create terror. they kill PEOPLE.
the people they kill probably don't care that they have been blown to pieces by the correct type of terrorists.
mandela the man that left prison wanted reconciliation, mandela the man that went to prison was a very different man.
Placing bombs where civilians will be cannot be justified. If they are freedom fighters then they would be attacking government forces only, and not civilians. Terror is terror.
The IRA were terrorists, some still are.
they blew people to bits.
how are any dead irish or british people any different from the south africans blown to bits.
I wish the people earlier would post pictures of the victims of apartheid and terrorist bombings and we can then decide which is worst as if it is some sort of competition.

Yes we kill people in war it happens to this very day, we bomb people like today where there was a wedding and 13 innocent people were killed for no crime they committed, is that not a terrorist act by your logic also then. Again nobody has tried to justify any of the bombings or any or the crimes from both sides, but you look at only he as the terrorist, when the Apartheid Government was also committing terrorism by murder and torture, you only look at one side of the argument not both, when both sides did wrong and ignore this came about because apartheid treated people lesser than humans, something you are it seems unable to put your own mind into a similar situation.
Would you like pictures of all the beatings to deaths or blacks by the Apartheid government, would that also show again both who committed acts were wrong? So by your logic both sides were committing terrorist acts as they were both killing civilians and yet again we have seen countless civilians die throughout conflicts, should we thus by your logic not have reconciled with Japan or Germany?  

Yes try and actually see how you would cope under such oppression, because as of yet you only see some of the crimes, done, not the years of crimes committed against the blacks.
No killings are ever justified, including in war, because to have to kill someone you know something has gone too far. War is in itself a crime, so if you want to go down that road am happy to oblige on the wrongs of this also, so do you wish to constantly cast blame, whilst ignoring the plight of many others, because that is what you are doing,

so you equate an intelligence failure by the government with the acts of those who plant bombs in markets. The only person trying to justify the bombings appears to be you and a few others here.
I am condemning all those bombings committed by terrorists to bring terror to the populace.
they are indiscriminate and as such cannot be termed as anything but terrorism.
You are forgiving anything if it suits your agenda.
It was not the blowing up of people that brought down the apartheid system, it was negotiation.
why anyone would revel in the blowing up of woman and children for any cause is beyond me.
the buck stops here is an oft used term. As Mandela was part of the leadership at the time of the bombings then the buck stopped with him. Why you will not even acknowledge he holds some culpability is very unusual. It changes nothing about what he become whilst in prison, or what he did when he left which was truly remarkable. But to dismiss it or deny it is denying history

Sorry but you are avoiding every issue thrown your way and still have not been able to answer what you would do in a similar situation. Now again all killing is wrong, there is never any justification for it, what I tried to show to you which you ignore of which has happened plenty of times in history is of people under oppression rising up and saying enough is enough. We call Winston Churchill a hero and he was, because he saved Britain in its finest hour, but his darkest was sending countless Brits to the death in Gallipoli, but he is remembered as a hero by many, though to some Australian maybe not. The point is where do you wanna draw the line with your argument, is now Bomber Harris a terrorist, because he undertook a bombing campaign which killed thousands of civilians? Is that what you think using your logic. Is Trueman a terrorist for dropping not one but two Atom Bombs? Your argument is so one sided it is only fixated on the killings done by the armed wing of the ANC, the Umkhonto we Sizwe, yet say nothing of any of the killings, torture and oppression these people were facing. This is not India with Ghandi, where millions out numbered the British and where many were serving in her armed forces, the blacks were segregated from all white society. You are also saying no nation should defend itself when at war, because to kill is wrong, but there is also such a thing as fighting for your freedoms. Now did any of bombings make a difference, no, they never did and will be a crime to stain those South African Blacks that committed them for what they did, there is no excuse for what they did, as there is not for the IRA, but you can only push humans so far, so much until they snap, they end up fighting fire with fire, atrocity with atrocity and there are no winners, just innocents dead. Yet all while this was going on Mandela had been in jail under sentence for sabotage. Did he order the bombings who knows, but who has ever come to justice for the crimes under apartheid? Nobody. You cannot justify an argument based on only one side, but looking at both sides and where both sides did wrong, but one man emerged to change the course of the country with reconciliation, when he like many others in such a situation would have no doubt been full of hate, he wasn't and neither were many there with him. He wanted a Free South Africa and stopped countless more innocents dying, because the country was on the verge of civil war and how many thousands do you think he saved.

Think about that point because he did save thousands from death, when civil war was close. Nobody is excusing any of the violence, I am explaining why violence happens, as I condemn murder and always have, and you need to understand the difference, as if I was speaking of any event in history of which I love, I give explanations behind why events happen, that is not an excuse or an apology, but an explanation. Your views are your own, but to understand something fully, you have to place your mind inside both sides of a conflict, though it is difficult because you are trying to capture some very extreme emotions, which we only have happened to us a few times in life, but for those under apartheid, it was an extreme emotion everyday, try thinking about that

Night

why does what I might or might not do have any bearing on what he did.

PhilDidge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:


Didge,you are right to pose the question again that keeps getting asked of those that condemn Mandela and no-one comes back with an answer that if the situation was reversed and black supremacists took control of this country and implemented draconian apartheid policies that introduced pass laws restricting the movement of the majority white population and where they could reside, which public transport services they could use and used lethal force to enforce it what would they do?

Good Evening Irn

Indeed, the point is being dragged to death over whether we condemn any bombings of which we all do, murder, is always condemn, but he does not want to understand how murder can sometimes happen, and feels it is an excuse, when it is an explanation of human nature, when pushed to the limits. Hence Cantankerous has not attempted to place himself in this position and thus wont understand what South Africa was once like.
I just want to answer that point and say what he would do under such extremes of emotions

All the best Irn and have a good evening

who is he, the cats mother. what I might do has no influence on what mandela did.
so terrorism is ok in your view if it is for reasons you agree with?

Irn Bru wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:


Didge,you are right to pose the question again that keeps getting asked of those that condemn Mandela and no-one comes back with an answer that if the situation was reversed and black supremacists took control of this country and implemented draconian apartheid policies that introduced pass laws restricting the movement of the majority white population and where they could reside, which public transport services they could use and used lethal force to enforce it what would they do?

Good Evening Irn

Indeed, the point is being dragged to death over whether we condemn any bombings of which we all do, murder, is always condemn, but he does not want to understand how murder can sometimes happen, and feels it is an excuse, when it is an explanation of human nature, when pushed to the limits. Hence Cantankerous has not attempted to place himself in this position and thus wont understand what South Africa was once like.
I just want to answer that point and say what he would do under such extremes of emotions

All the best Irn and have a good evening

Indded Didge. The Truth & Reconcilliation Committe have been trying to rid the country of all this baggage of hate and recriminations but some people just want to keep stoking it up instead of recognising that there were some terrible things that happened under an evil and devisive regime that enforced its policies on a population under the barrel of guns.
Mandela never claimed to be a saint and gave up 27 years of his life in persuit of the rights of the people of South Africa.

yes what mandela did after he came out was indeed worthy and the act of a statesman. Being involved in a terrorist campaign is not. Is his past being airbrushed from history so as not to taint the present?

Cantankerous wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:


Didge,you are right to pose the question again that keeps getting asked of those that condemn Mandela and no-one comes back with an answer that if the situation was reversed and black supremacists took control of this country and implemented draconian apartheid policies that introduced pass laws restricting the movement of the majority white population and where they could reside, which public transport services they could use and used lethal force to enforce it what would they do?

Good Evening Irn

Indeed, the point is being dragged to death over whether we condemn any bombings of which we all do, murder, is always condemn, but he does not want to understand how murder can sometimes happen, and feels it is an excuse, when it is an explanation of human nature, when pushed to the limits. Hence Cantankerous has not attempted to place himself in this position and thus wont understand what South Africa was once like.
I just want to answer that point and say what he would do under such extremes of emotions

All the best Irn and have a good evening

who is he, the cats mother. what I might do has no influence on what mandela did.
so terrorism is ok in your view if it is for reasons you agree with?

Killing innocent people is never okay with me, but it happens, so by your logic King Henry V should not be remembered for his greatness but for killing unarmed men at arms?

Again you failed to address my many point and have avoided them, which is a bit pointless if you are not going to engage in a debate, it becomes one sided to your views just like our views on Mandela.

So let me know when you wish to address them and if you believe many great people are not great people when they have executed people?

Thanks

Irn Bru wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:


Didge,you are right to pose the question again that keeps getting asked of those that condemn Mandela and no-one comes back with an answer that if the situation was reversed and black supremacists took control of this country and implemented draconian apartheid policies that introduced pass laws restricting the movement of the majority white population and where they could reside, which public transport services they could use and used lethal force to enforce it what would they do?

Good Evening Irn

Indeed, the point is being dragged to death over whether we condemn any bombings of which we all do, murder, is always condemn, but he does not want to understand how murder can sometimes happen, and feels it is an excuse, when it is an explanation of human nature, when pushed to the limits. Hence Cantankerous has not attempted to place himself in this position and thus wont understand what South Africa was once like.
I just want to answer that point and say what he would do under such extremes of emotions

All the best Irn and have a good evening

Indded Didge. The Truth & Reconcilliation Committe have been trying to rid the country of all this baggage of hate and recriminations but some people just want to keep stoking it up instead of recognising that there were some terrible things that happened under an evil and devisive regime that enforced its policies on a population under the barrel of guns.
Mandela never claimed to be a saint and gave up 27 years of his life in persuit of the rights of the people of South Africa.

Exactly, so harsh the 27 years, he lost the ability to cry, so he served his time for the crimes of sabotage and yet this is not enough. Not enough he stopped a nation descending into war and saving thousands of innocent lives. Best tell all Christians, Jews and Muslims not to read their hold books due to violence and murder in them?
Oh well Irn it is an interesting debate so I thank Cantankerous for that and you, just wish he would address the many points he is evading

RIP Madiba xxx

David wrote:RIP Madiba xxx

Yes RIP
xxx