Interesting implication of Job 1:6-12

by Ben Reilly Wed May 27, 2015 11:51 pm

(My commentary in italics)

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

Awesome, I didn't know God, the angels and Satan regularly hung out ...

7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.”

And presumably thought to himself, "I'm in your creation, temptin' your doods and you didn't even [b]know that?"

8 And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?”

And Satan thought, "Yeah, yeah, you start acting like this every time you're about to throw an epic hissy-fit. I remember Noah, I remember Lot."

9 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.”

I.E., "If you royally fuck this guy over, he's not going to love you anymore." That's the type of wisdom you have when you're the most powerful angel ever created.

12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

Presumably rubbing his hands together in anticipation ... Satan finally is free to torment Job. He wants to hurt him, and now God's going to let him, because God ... doesn't know how this is all going to turn out? Just decided, "fuck Job and all his nice-guy B.S."?

So the lesson here -- Satan is an attack dog and God holds the leash. And it doesn't matter how much you love God, He could still decide to let Satan take everything from you, kill your children and leave you cursing your own birth, and all for no logical reason, just fuck you.

by Guest Thu May 28, 2015 5:41 am

Well clear contradictions this shows in Christian beliefs, because the belief is Satan is kicked out of heaven after a war that he supposedly lost just after the creation or just before dependent on theological arguments. Another because he refused to bow down to Adam or the creation of man. (Another first example of elitism of racism between species you might say). Another view is based on Satan obtaining "free will" who then distances himself from God. So if all this has occurred before Job. This clearly shows a Satan not confined to hell does it not but free to walk with mankind. In the Book of Enoch, 200 "fallen Angels" came to teach mankind civilization and advancements in technologies, it was their offspring that were defined as the Nephilim, claim to be monstrous beings. All of which brings about God causing the flood according to this book omitted from the bible but still used by Ethiopian Coptic Christians and Jews and once very much part of Jewish beliefs and works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watcher_%28angel%29

So what do we notice here? By the jargon and contradicting stories, Satan was once one of the highest angels, if not the highest. Could it not be the case that Satan is nothing more than an angel of death commanded by God to commit to his will? That is walking the earth after the flood, clearly there was other survivors of the flood, which the bible actually states that there was anyway, if you read them carefully enough, King Og being one such individual in Jewish works on the matter.

Anyway am going off tangent, the very fact is that Job does everything for his own self needs and based on fear of what will happen in the after life if he does not would suffer eternal punishment. God even states he is:
a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?”

Fear being the key again, thus through fear is how and why Job ceases to act on the appalling atrocities committed to him and his family. From this we can deduce that Job is nothing more that a complete gutless coward and shit, who allows God to butcher his family and is such a coward who fears any action to himself. He thus places himself over his own family needs through fear of God.

That is what you class as the most disingenuous character found within the bible, as who would forsake their own family? What sort of message does this portray where people are to place a mythical God over their own family? Something they cannot prove exists is placed first before their own family. The needs of a person's own children placed second to some myth. That is appalling as a concept.

by Guest Thu May 28, 2015 8:37 am

what's the purpose for this thread ?

by Ben Reilly Thu May 28, 2015 9:16 am

Vicar of Dibley wrote:what's the purpose for this thread ?

Discussion and debate, just like the rest of the site. It seems to me that this story allows for only a few horrible alternatives for believers -- either God is all-powerful and thus Satan can't work his evil without it being allowed by God, or God isn't all-powerful, which would mean 1) God's a liar and 2) Satan could win. So basically, God is either the ultimate source of all evil, having not only created Satan despite his foreknowledge of things like the Holocaust, etc., but occasionally allowing him to hurt even good people like Job just for the sick thrill of it, or he's the Wizard of Oz (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!).

There is a third possibility I learned about recently -- that the story of Job is a poorly updated version of a story in which God and Satan are the same person. The Bible, especially the OT, contains re-tellings of stories throughout its books largely because the books were written long after they were created as oral traditions. But check out some really bad ret-conning here:

"Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah."" - 2 Samuel 24

vs.

"Satan rose up against Israel and caused David to take a census of the people of Israel." - 1 Chronicles 21

These refer to the same event, David taking the census of Israel, yet in one version it's God's anger that makes David do it, and in the other it's Satan that makes David do it.

The simplest explanation is that somebody forgot that God and Satan were supposed to be different entities when they translated this, and that the predecessor religion to Judaism considered God and Satan to be two aspects of the same entity.

by Guest Thu May 28, 2015 9:40 am

it is quite funny when people do their own take on scripture.

the angels of God presented themselves before God and so did satan, satan was once an angel remember, so it appears the angels were summoned and satan had to come, so who has te sovereign power??
I get the impression it was a rhetorical question to satan, God knew what satan was doing and where he would be but wanted his confession.
satan asks if job is God fearing and loving because he has befallen no ill in his life and has no reason to not love God. so God allows satan to tempt Job.
satan is the prince of this world, satans kingdom was defeated wheb Jesus went to the cross and he will be held in the abyss for one thousand years and eventually end in the lake of fire.
so his fate is sealed but as ever with God, he does things according to a plan and his justice.

by Guest Thu May 28, 2015 9:52 am

Its based on many religious writings not just the bible.
As seen though the story of Job, is about one of the most nastiest stories you can find, where a person is so much of a coward and through fear, he allows his own family and himself to suffer, just so he will not suffer in the next life.
It downgrades the importance of a family as second to a mythical belief.

So lets place this into concept. A person hears voices in his head where he claims to be speaking to a God (it matters not which belief system) and is order by this deity to make his family suffer to show his obedience to this God. he continues to make them suffer based on the voices in his head, untill he kills his entire family. Are you saying this person should not be arrested and evaluated and sectioned for the criminally insane?

by Ben Reilly Thu May 28, 2015 9:54 am

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:it is quite funny when people do their own take on scripture.

the angels of God presented themselves before God and so did satan, satan was once an angel remember, so it appears the angels were summoned and satan had to come, so who has te sovereign power??
I get the impression it was a rhetorical question to satan, God knew what satan was doing and where he would be but wanted his confession.
satan asks if job is God fearing and loving because he has befallen no ill in his life and has no reason to not love God. so God allows satan to tempt Job.
satan is the prince of this world, satans kingdom was defeated wheb Jesus went to the cross and he will be held in the abyss for one thousand years and eventually end in the lake of fire.
so his fate is sealed but as ever with God, he does things according to a plan and his justice.

Just to poke a few holes in this nonsense before I head off to bed ...

* Where else in the Bible does God ever let Satan back into Heaven? I believe the Bible says elsewhere that Satan was cast out.

* If Satan is the prince of this world, why does God make him confess that he was out walking around on the Earth?

* God doesn't allow Satan to tempt Job, he allows Satan to murder all of his children.

* Why did God need anyone to die in order to defeat Satan, if God is all-powerful and, as you say, the "sovereign power"? Can't God just will Satan out of existence, as he willed the Sun and Moon and life into existence?

by Guest Thu May 28, 2015 10:35 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:it is quite funny when people do their own take on scripture.

the angels of God presented themselves before God and so did satan, satan was once an angel remember, so it appears the angels were summoned and satan had to come, so who has te sovereign power??
I get the impression it was a rhetorical question to satan, God knew what satan was doing and where he would be but wanted his confession.
satan asks if job is God fearing and loving because he has befallen no ill in his life and has no reason to not love God. so God allows satan to tempt Job.
satan is the prince of this world, satans kingdom was defeated wheb Jesus went to the cross and he will be held in the abyss for one thousand years and eventually end in the lake of fire.
so his fate is sealed but as ever with God, he does things according to a plan and his justice.

Just to poke a few holes in this nonsense before I head off to bed ...

* Where else in the Bible does God ever let Satan back into Heaven? I believe the Bible says elsewhere that Satan was cast out.

* If Satan is the prince of this world, why does God make him confess that he was out walking around on the Earth?

* God doesn't allow Satan to tempt Job, he allows Satan to murder all of his children.

* Why did God need anyone to die in order to defeat Satan, if God is all-powerful and, as you say, the "sovereign power"? Can't God just will Satan out of existence, as he willed the Sun and Moon and life into existence?

The simple answer to the last point Ben, is that both Christianity and Islam both have the belief system that allows for people to only be created in the first place, so they will suffer eternally. They are needed that a few other individuals can go through live never ever directly making any decision as their lives are predetermined. Where from their very existance they will never have to suffer eternally, but require others created to suffer, that they mistakenly believe they must do go good, to avoid such a place, even though again their actions are already predetermined. The whole existance set up requires far more people created, who were never asked if they wanted to exist, just to fulfill some sick plan, where they end up suffering eternally.

by Guest Thu May 28, 2015 12:49 pm

Belatucadros wrote:Its based on many religious writings not just the bible.
As seen though the story of Job, is about one of the most nastiest stories you can find, where a person is so much of a coward and through fear, he allows his own family and himself to suffer, just so he will not suffer in the next life.
It downgrades the importance of a family as second to a mythical belief.

So lets place this into concept. A person hears voices in his head where he claims to be speaking to a God (it matters not which belief system) and is order by this deity to make his family suffer to show his obedience to this God. he continues to make them suffer based on the voices in his head, untill he kills his entire family. Are you saying this person should not be arrested and evaluated and sectioned for the criminally insane?

nastiest stories God returns everything to job two fold... it's not all bad..

things happen...

by Guest Thu May 28, 2015 12:54 pm

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Belatucadros wrote:Its based on many religious writings not just the bible.
As seen though the story of Job, is about one of the most nastiest stories you can find, where a person is so much of a coward and through fear, he allows his own family and himself to suffer, just so he will not suffer in the next life.
It downgrades the importance of a family as second to a mythical belief.

So lets place this into concept. A person hears voices in his head where he claims to be speaking to a God (it matters not which belief system) and is order by this deity to make his family suffer to show his obedience to this God. he continues to make them suffer based on the voices in his head, untill he kills his entire family. Are you saying this person should not be arrested and evaluated and sectioned for the criminally insane?
nastiest stories God returns everything to job two fold... it's not all bad..

things happen...

I never asked you what some imaginary deity would do did I?
Talk about avoiding the question yet again.
So I take it you would allow such a man today to walk free after torturing his own family to later butchering them on hearing voices in their head claiming it was a god telling them to do so?

by Guest Thu May 28, 2015 12:54 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:it is quite funny when people do their own take on scripture.

the angels of God presented themselves before God and so did satan, satan was once an angel remember, so it appears the angels were summoned and satan had to come, so who has te sovereign power??
I get the impression it was a rhetorical question to satan, God knew what satan was doing and where he would be but wanted his confession.
satan asks if job is God fearing and loving because he has befallen no ill in his life and has no reason to not love God. so God allows satan to tempt Job.
satan is the prince of this world, satans kingdom was defeated wheb Jesus went to the cross and he will be held in the abyss for one thousand years and eventually end in the lake of fire.
so his fate is sealed but as ever with God, he does things according to a plan and his justice.

Just to poke a few holes in this nonsense before I head off to bed ...

* Where else in the Bible does God ever let Satan back into Heaven? I believe the Bible says elsewhere that Satan was cast out.

* If Satan is the prince of this world, why does God make him confess that he was out walking around on the Earth?

* God doesn't allow Satan to tempt Job, he allows Satan to murder all of his children.

* Why did God need anyone to die in order to defeat Satan, if God is all-powerful and, as you say, the "sovereign power"? Can't God just will Satan out of existence, as he willed the Sun and Moon and life into existence?

he was cast down but it said in this case the angels came before God, satan was an angel and was presumably called as were all angels to give account..
he asked him as he was called to give account..
the murder is his temptation, the idea was he has a pretty pefect life and that is why satan thought that job loved God..

because God is a righteous judge and the time of judgement has not yet come..

by Ben Reilly Fri May 29, 2015 8:26 pm

I have to laugh, because this is what I see every time I ask critical questions about someone's religion. They start to come up with what I call "pseudo-theology" to wave away thorny questions and contradictions -- they have to, because the source book or books of the religion itself doesn't contain the answers.

Why they can't just admit they don't know why these things are in their religions ... I don't know Smile

by Guest Sat May 30, 2015 11:39 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:I have to laugh, because this is what I see every time I ask critical questions about someone's religion. They start to come up with what I call "pseudo-theology" to wave away thorny questions and contradictions -- they have to, because the source book or books of the religion itself doesn't contain the answers.

Why they can't just admit they don't know why these things are in their religions ... I don't know

no what Christians do is explain some basic theology to help others understand...

by Guest Sat May 30, 2015 12:09 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:it is quite funny when people do their own take on scripture.

the angels of God presented themselves before God and so did satan, satan was once an angel remember, so it appears the angels were summoned and satan had to come, so who has te sovereign power??
I get the impression it was a rhetorical question to satan, God knew what satan was doing and where he would be but wanted his confession.
satan asks if job is God fearing and loving because he has befallen no ill in his life and has no reason to not love God. so God allows satan to tempt Job.
satan is the prince of this world, satans kingdom was defeated wheb Jesus went to the cross and he will be held in the abyss for one thousand years and eventually end in the lake of fire.
so his fate is sealed but as ever with God, he does things according to a plan and his justice.

Just to poke a few holes in this nonsense before I head off to bed ...

* Where else in the Bible does God ever let Satan back into Heaven? I believe the Bible says elsewhere that Satan was cast out.

* If Satan is the prince of this world, why does God make him confess that he was out walking around on the Earth?

* God doesn't allow Satan to tempt Job, he allows Satan to murder all of his children.

* Why did God need anyone to die in order to defeat Satan, if God is all-powerful and, as you say, the "sovereign power"? Can't God just will Satan out of existence, as he willed the Sun and Moon and life into existence?

if God willed satan out of existence that wouldn't be fair to satanists surely

by Ben Reilly Sat May 30, 2015 8:30 pm

Vicar of Dibley wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:it is quite funny when people do their own take on scripture.

the angels of God presented themselves before God and so did satan, satan was once an angel remember, so it appears the angels were summoned and satan had to come, so who has te sovereign power??
I get the impression it was a rhetorical question to satan, God knew what satan was doing and where he would be but wanted his confession.
satan asks if job is God fearing and loving because he has befallen no ill in his life and has no reason to not love God. so God allows satan to tempt Job.
satan is the prince of this world, satans kingdom was defeated wheb Jesus went to the cross and he will be held in the abyss for one thousand years and eventually end in the lake of fire.
so his fate is sealed but as ever with God, he does things according to a plan and his justice.

Just to poke a few holes in this nonsense before I head off to bed ...

* Where else in the Bible does God ever let Satan back into Heaven? I believe the Bible says elsewhere that Satan was cast out.

* If Satan is the prince of this world, why does God make him confess that he was out walking around on the Earth?

* God doesn't allow Satan to tempt Job, he allows Satan to murder all of his children.

* Why did God need anyone to die in order to defeat Satan, if God is all-powerful and, as you say, the "sovereign power"? Can't God just will Satan out of existence, as he willed the Sun and Moon and life into existence?

if God willed satan out of existence that wouldn't be fair to satanists surely

It would be a hell of a lot kinder than allowing Satan to exist, surely.

by Guest Sat May 30, 2015 9:48 pm

when you got right down to it, particularly evil. Human beings mostly aren't. They just get carried away by new ideas, like dressing up in jackboots and shooting people, or dressing up in white sheets and lynching people, or dressing up in tie-dye jeans and and playing guitar at people. Offer people a new creed with a costume and their hearts and minds will follow”
― Neil Gaiman, Good Omens: The Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter, Witch

by eddie Sat May 30, 2015 10:34 pm

I think, that people who have massive hang-ups about religion are just as messed up about it as the people they oppose.
A bit like raging homophobes are supposed to be secretly gay.....

Just saying.

by Guest Sat May 30, 2015 10:50 pm

eddie wrote:I think, that people who have massive hang-ups about religion are just as messed up about it as the people they oppose.
A bit like raging homophobes are supposed to be secretly gay.....

Just saying.

I do not think there is anything messed up about wanting to help being see rationally some things taught as if a divine command are in fact very wrong. If you think that is wrong to do, then you go against every principle you had as a teacher Eddie. When teaching we attempt to help people to learn and in many areas of the bible it does help people to learn, as does the Quran, but in other parts, it teaches the most vile hatred, violence, genocide, vengeance, sexism, racism, homophobia etc. So if challenging bad ideas and teaching that they are wrong and by this and your methodology, I am messed up. I shall wear it with pride. But clearly you need to define a new word to describe the ultimate messed up type of people.
Do not worry, I have found many words for the ultimate messed up.
They are Islam, Christianity, Judaism.
Homophobes are hateful, every last one of them towards homosexuals.
Atheists are not in the vast majority, hateful to believers. We only want them to be set free from fear.
Christians preach to convert by claiming to opening their eyes to the truth by using fear. Atheists try to allow people to see the truth for themselves, without having to fear.

There lies the difference between both Eddie.
x

by Guest Sat May 30, 2015 11:09 pm

Belatucadros wrote:
eddie wrote:I think, that people who have massive hang-ups about religion are just as messed up about it as the people they oppose.
A bit like raging homophobes are supposed to be secretly gay.....

Just saying.

I do not think there is anything messed up about wanting to help being see rationally some things taught as if a divine command are in fact very wrong. If you think that is wrong to do, then you go against every principle you had as a teacher Eddie. When teaching we attempt to help people to learn and in many areas of the bible it does help people to learn, as does the Quran, but in other parts, it teaches the most vile hatred, violence, genocide, vengeance, sexism, racism, homophobia etc. So if challenging bad ideas and teaching that they are wrong and by this and your methodology, I am messed up. I shall wear it with pride. But clearly you need to define a new word to describe the ultimate messed up type of people.
Do not worry, I have found many words for the ultimate messed up.
They are Islam, Christianity, Judaism.
Homophobes are hateful, every last one of them towards homosexuals.
Atheists are not in the vast majority, hateful to believers. We only want them to be set free from fear.
Christians preach to convert by claiming to opening their eyes to the truth by using fear. Atheists try to allow people to see the truth for themselves, without having to fear.

There lies the difference between both Eddie.
x

Interesting implication of Job 1:6-12 Applau10

by eddie Sat May 30, 2015 11:10 pm

Atheists are their own religion. Are they not? lol!

by Guest Sat May 30, 2015 11:13 pm

eddie wrote:Atheists are their own religion. Are they not?

Oh Eddie, I love you to bits, but you are a silly sausage at times. Laughing

We do not worship anything because we are atheist.
We do not have to follow any dogma because we are atheists.

Hence why I will repeat for you again:

Atheists are not in the vast majority, hateful to believers. We only want them to be set free from fear.
Christians preach to convert by claiming to opening their eyes to the truth by using fear. Atheists try to allow people to see the truth for themselves, without having to fear.

Goodnight Eddie and everyone else, have a wonderful evening.

by Guest Sat May 30, 2015 11:14 pm

korban dallas wrote:
Belatucadros wrote:

I do not think there is anything messed up about wanting to help being see rationally some things taught as if a divine command are in fact very wrong. If you think that is wrong to do, then you go against every principle you had as a teacher Eddie. When teaching we attempt to help people to learn and in many areas of the bible it does help people to learn, as does the Quran, but in other parts, it teaches the most vile hatred, violence, genocide, vengeance, sexism, racism, homophobia etc. So if challenging bad ideas and teaching that they are wrong and by this and your methodology, I am messed up. I shall wear it with pride. But clearly you need to define a new word to describe the ultimate messed up type of people.
Do not worry, I have found many words for the ultimate messed up.
They are Islam, Christianity, Judaism.
Homophobes are hateful, every last one of them towards homosexuals.
Atheists are not in the vast majority, hateful to believers. We only want them to be set free from fear.
Christians preach to convert by claiming to opening their eyes to the truth by using fear. Atheists try to allow people to see the truth for themselves, without having to fear.

There lies the difference between both Eddie.
x

Cheers mate, all the best, am back tomorrow. Laughing

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