Germanwings Pilot Was Locked Out of Cockpit Before Crash in France

by Guest Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:54 pm

PARIS — As officials struggled Wednesday to explain why a jet with 150 people on board crashed in relatively clear skies, an investigator said evidence from a cockpit voice recorder indicated one pilot left the cockpit before the plane’s descent and was unable to get back in.

A senior military official involved in the investigation described “very smooth, very cool” conversation between the pilots during the early part of the flight from Barcelona to Düsseldorf. Then the audio indicated that one of the pilots left the cockpit and could not re-enter.

“The guy outside is knocking lightly on the door and there is no answer,” the investigator said. “And then he hits the door stronger and no answer. There is never an answer.”

He said, “You can hear he is trying to smash the door down.”

While the audio seemed to give some insight into the circumstances leading up to the Germanwings crash, it also left many questions unanswered.

"We don’t know yet the reason why one of the guys went out,” said the official, who requested anonymity because the investigation is continuing. "But what is sure is that at the very end of the flight, the other pilot is alone and does not open the door."

The data from the voice recorder seems only to deepen the mystery surrounding the crash and provides no indication of the condition or activity of the pilot who remained in the cockpit. The descent from 38,000 feet over about 10 minutes was alarming but still gradual enough to indicate that the twin-engine Airbus A320 had not been damaged catastrophically . At no point during the descent was there any communication from the cockpit to air traffic controllers or any other signal of an emergency.

When the plane plowed into craggy mountains northeast of Nice, it was traveling with enough speed that it was all but pulverized, killing the 144 passengers and crew of six and leaving behind almost no apparent clues about what caused the crash.

The French aviation authorities have made public very little, officially, about the nature of the information that has been recovered from the audio recording, and it was not clear whether it was partial or complete. France’s Bureau of Investigations and Analyses confirmed only that human voices and other cockpit sounds had been detected and would be subjected to detailed analysis.

Asked about the new evidence revealed in the cockpit recordings, Martine del Bono, a bureau spokeswoman, declined to comment.

"Our teams continue to work on analyzing the CVR,” she said, referring to the cockpit voice recorder. "As soon as we have accurate information we intend to hold a press conference.”

Meanwhile, prosecutors in Marseille, who have been charged with a separate criminal inquiry into the crash, could not immediately be reached for comment. Brice Robin, the Marseille prosecutor, was due to meet Thursday morning with the families of the crash victims.

At the crash site, a senior official working on the investigation said, workers found the casing of the plane’s other black box, the flight data recorder, but the memory card containing data on the plane’s altitude, speed, location and condition was not inside, apparently having been thrown loose or destroyed by the impact.

The flight’s trajectory ahead of the crash also left many unanswered questions.

Rémi Jouty, the director of the French Bureau of Investigations and Analysis, said at a news conference that the plane took off at around 10 a.m. local time from Barcelona and that the last message sent from the pilot to air traffic controllers had been at 10:30 a.m., which indicated that the plane was proceeding on course.

But minutes later, the plane inexplicably began to descend, Mr. Jouty said. At 10:40 and 47 seconds, the plane reported its last radar position, at an altitude of 6,175 feet. “The radar could follow the plane until the point of impact,” he said.

Mr. Jouty said the plane slammed into a mountainside and disintegrated, scattering debris over a wide area, and making it difficult to analyze what had happened.

It often takes months or even years to determine the causes of plane crashes, but a little more than a year after the disappearance of a Malaysian airlines jetliner that has never been found, the loss of the Germanwings flight is shaping up to be particularly perplexing to investigators.

One of the main questions outstanding is why the pilots did not communicate with air traffic controllers as the plane began its unusual descent, suggesting that either the pilots or the plane’s automated systems may have been trying to maintain control of the aircraft as it lost altitude.

Among the theories that have been put forward by air safety analysts not involved in the investigation is the possibility that the pilots could have been incapacitated by a sudden event such as a fire or a drop in cabin pressure.

A senior French official involved in the investigation, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said that the lack of communication from the pilots during the plane’s descent was disturbing, and that the possibility that their silence was deliberate could not be ruled out.

“I don’t like it,” said the French official, who cautioned that his initial analysis was based on the very limited information currently available. “To me, it seems very weird: this very long descent at normal speed without any communications, though the weather was absolutely clear.”

More at http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/world/europe/germanwings-airbus-crash.html

Perhaps it's as simple as the pilot at the controls had a heart attack, the doors to the cabin locked automatically I believe. If he'd had a heart attack he wouldn't have been able to get up and open the door, or reply and may even have slumped over the joystick.

by Cass Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:58 pm

I agree. a medical event of some sort. all the more reason to have a third person in there or to go in when one needs to leave for any reason such as a stewardess/steward.

by Guest Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:00 am

That's a good idea, I expect the other pilot had to go to the loo or something, so it would only have been for a short time and a steward/ess could be spared for that surely?

by Cass Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:03 am

risingsun wrote:That's a good idea, I expect the other pilot had to go to the loo or something, so it would only have been for a short time and a steward/ess could be spared for that surely?

I bet it was. they were delayed from taking off.

even on the smaller planes this would be the solution.

by Original Quill Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:43 am

It's an international flight rule to never leave anyone alone in the cockpit. If s/he was alone it was a violation.

Also the door lock is a separate setting on the console. The lock had to be consciously set by someone. Of course, it could have been protocol to keep it locked.

by eddie Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:18 am

I have a recollection of having a conversation with an off-duty pilot whilst waiting for a plane to the Maldives.
My other half questioned him relentlessly about plane safety lol (being a nervous and reluctant flyer).
One of the questions was about heart attacks strangely enough!, and the pilot, I seem to rememeber, said there were always two in the cockpit at any given time and the likelihood of both having a cardiac arrest was almost nil.
I'm also pretty certain, like a Quill, that you can unlock the door from the outside - someone on the inside has to set the lock somehow in order to make it inaccessible?

I could of course be wrong now and things have changed - as this was about 13 years ago and before 9/11

by Guest Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:35 pm

After the September 11 attacks, the US federal aviation authority (FAA) dramatically ramped up security on planes, and increased regulations around cockpit safety. Across the globe governments and the aviation industry made huge investments to enhance security in air travel, including strengthening doors to the cockpit.

An A320 operating manual for planes used by the Royal Jordanian airline shows a forward opening door with three electric locking strikes.

A locked door is opened by a flight crew inside the cockpit but can also be unlocked by cabin crew entering a keycode from the outside. Crew inside the cockpit can manually override it to keep a door locked for up to five minutes.

“In the case of an electrical supply failure the door is automatically unlocked, but remains closed,” reads the manual.

It is equipped with a manual escape hatch but that is only accessible from the inside.

Aviation expert Neil Handsford questioned the usefulness of keypad entries.

“The danger of the keypad is if the hostess knows the code and someone wants to get in there … I would think a keypad would be a breach of the international regulations,” he said.

“The integrity only works because the only people who can open it are the ones inside the flight deck.”

Protocols and standard procedures around what happens when a pilot leaves the cockpit mid-flight vary according to country and airline.

A flight attendant taking the seat of an absent pilot to ensure there are always two people in the cockpit, and/or blocking access to the open door with a trolley, are often seen on US flights, but not necessarily on others, Hansford said. For instance it is not a requirement on Australian flights.

Keith Tonkin, aviation expert and managing director of Aviation Projects consultancy, said the reports of the Germanwings flight are troubling in that they show “if one was outside and couldn’t get back in again you would be unable to influence the outcome of flight”.

Questions around how many people are in the cockpit and who should be in the cockpit at all times need to be looked at, Tonkin said.

“The situation raises a lot of questions and makes the processes in place seem inadequate ... if the person inside the cockpit decides to do something and prevent access by other people.”

Less than a month after the September 11 attacks, the FAA began publishing Special Federal Aviation Regulations “to expedite modification of cockpit doors in the US fleet”.

The first phase, which sought to “improve airplane security … immediately” included steel bars and locking devices installed on doors.

“The FAA determined that the security risk outweighed potential safety risks associated with the Phase I fix and granted short-term relief from certain airworthiness requirements, such as how the door performs during an unlikely rapid decompression,” read a 2003 press release.

Former FAA chief counsel, David Leitch, told a US law school in 2002 that doors were previously weaker because of concerns different air pressures in areas of a plane could cause it to break apart.

The A320 operating manual states the door is “fully compliant with rapid decompression requirements”.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/26/germanwings-crash-safety-of-cockpit-doors-on-all-planes-questioned

by Andy Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:11 pm

Seems it was suicide/murder.
Perhaps the co pilot thought the kids were returning home from a left wing summer camp and was emulating Anders Breivik?
God only knows what turns people into monsters.
It certainly doesn't seem to be religiously motivated- most on board were caucasian europeans.

by Guest Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:15 pm

I really don't see it being that HA, could even have been a terrible coincidence of the pilot getting sick and the a keypad malfunction. If the pilot who left the cockpit did so because he wanted the loo, how would the other pilot know that he was going to do that in advance, or that they would be near the mountains at the time?

by Guest Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:37 pm

I see the French are agreeing with you Handy on BBC News. I think they are jumping the gun somewhat, all they know is a little bit of voice recording.

by Andy Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:08 pm

There is compelling evidence from the voice recorder that the co pilot deliberately kept the cabin door locked by overriding the security code. He was either mad or bad.

by Guest Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:17 pm

Had heard that the voice recording showed the co-pilot couldn't get in, has there been further evidence that it was deliberate HA. Can't filter through all the news channels to find it, have you got a link.

by Guest Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:25 pm

Found this HA

http://globalnews.ca/news/1904768/germanwings-9525-co-pilot-appears-to-have-crashed-jet-deliberately-prosecutor/

I still don't see how they can be certain of it, because he would not have known he was going to be asked to fly the plane by himself, even according to what they say on the link.

by Guest Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:00 pm

Apologies HA, they seem very certain, just read this:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/mar/26/germanwings-plane-crash-investigation-press-conference-live-updates-4u9525

Lufthansa press conference summary

Heres a summary of the Lufthansa press conference, largely given by the company chief executive, Carsten Spohr.

Lufthansa confirmed that co-pilot Andreas Lubitz appeared to have prevented the captain from re-entering the cabin after a toilet break, and placed the Airbus A320 that resulted in the crash that killed all 150 on board.
Spohr said the company was in complete shock. It was “beyond our worst nightmare”, he told reporters in Cologne. “It leaves us absolutely speechless,” he said. “I wouldn’t not have been able to imagine that the situation would have got even worse.”
Spohr said that despite the disaster, Lufthansa had full confidence in its training and pilot screening procedures. These would nevertheless be reviewed, he said.
Unlike in the US, European regulations do not provide for two people to be in the cockpit at all times, Spohr said. Lufthansa does not voluntarily implement such a protocol, and Spohr said that he is not aware of any of the company’s competitors that have such a procedure.
Spohr said that it appears the captain punched in the emergency number into the cockpit door to gain entry, but the co-pilot deployed the five-minute over-ride. He said that, irrespective of all the sophisticated safety devices, “you can never exclude such an individual event”, adding “no system in the world could manage to do that”.
Asked about the theory that the co-pilot killed himself, he demurred. “We can only speculate what might have been the motivation of the co-pilot. In a company that prides itself on its safety record, this is a shock. We select cockpit personnel carefully.”

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52m ago14:04

Spohr is asked by NBC news whether there are any regulations that require a flight attendant to be the cabin if one of the pilots leaves - a question that was addressed earlier. In English, he acknowledges that US federal regulators require a second member of the flight crew to be in the cockpit. says unlike the US, no flight attendant is required to be in the cockpit when one of the pilots leaves it. Asked about speculation about suicide, he demurs.

by Original Quill Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:42 pm

@Eds...

It appears that the pilot was locked out of the cabin while the co-pilot was flying. According to news, the cabin door has a lock on it, however the door can be opened by a code punched into a keypad on the exterior. But...that code can be overridden from inside the cabin.

They know now that this was a deliberate act by the co-pilot. A change of altitude course was set to have the aircraft drop some 3500-4000 ft. of altitude per minute. One scenario suggest the co-pilot could have lost consciousness and slumped over the stick, but the speculation is that such would have caused a less steady decline.

There was steady breathing recorded on the flight recorder throughout, though the co-pilot never said a word. There was no evidence of any trauma.

The co-pilot could have been sick or disabled somehow, but there is apparently no evidence of that from the recorder.

by Guest Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:46 pm

A deliberate act OMG that is ............................................i am lost for words

by nicko Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:47 pm

Some one saw on Facebook a comment about the co-pilot, it said "Hero of the Islamic State".

by Original Quill Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:52 pm

nicko wrote:Some one saw on Facebook a comment about the co-pilot, it said "Hero of the Islamic State".

But that says nothing about what happened here. That sounds like someone who is just applauding bad news generally, from his own political perspective.

by Guest Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:57 pm

nicko wrote:Some one saw on Facebook a comment about the co-pilot, it said "Hero of the Islamic State".

Andreas Lubitz is his name .....sounds Jewish but as Q says nuts on facebook

by eddie Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:27 pm

@Quil that's why I thought it may have been deliberate?

Just becasue the pilot wasn't a Muslim doesnt means it wasn't religiously motivated either.
Also, in answer to the questiion of how the co-pilot couldve known he would be alone....well is imagine that at some point on every flight the pilots go to the toilet or that could've been pure luck obviously, that he got left alone

So do we know if its definitely looking deliberate?

by Original Quill Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:34 pm

eddie wrote:@Quil that's why I thought it may have been deliberate?

Just becasue the pilot wasn't a Muslim doesnt means it wasn't religiously motivated either.
Also, in answer to the questiion of how the co-pilot couldve known he would be alone....well is imagine that at some point on every flight the pilots go to the toilet or that could've been pure luck obviously, that he got left alone

So do we know if its definitely looking deliberate?

It is looking like it was deliberate.

The pilot was German, and not of Middle Eastern desent. And while we don't know if he had Muslim sympathies, we also don't know if he was a One Direction fan, either. Was he angry about Zayn's plan to go his separate way?

by Lone Wolf Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:41 pm

ON LATE NEWS here Thursday night AEDT, it was confirmed by French officials that the pilot was in control until the moment of impact, after analysis of the "black box" recordings.

AS FOR his co-pilot being locked out of the cockpit, it is always possible that he was tricked into leaving there by the pilot somehow, protocols be buggered..

AND AS FAR as some comments here go regarding a suicide pilot as "a monster.." and "..mad or bad." ~ I have no time for such pure guesswork and pointless suppositions without any real world foundation ~ the first facts that one must consider in these cases is the mental condition of the perpetrator of such a mass-killing by suicide :

WAS he of 'sound mind" ?
WAS he totally aware of what he was doing ?
WAS he a genuine "Bad"/Sociopathic/zealot brand of everyday murderous nutter ~ OR was he mentally ill/depressed/delusional ?

UNTIL we hear more about the killler's state of mind, half of the blatant wild guesses, rumours and conspiracy theories put forward are, frankly speaking, no more than a form of 'intellectual masturbation' !!! Basketball

by Lone Wolf Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:49 pm

eddie wrote:
@Quil that's why I thought it may have been deliberate?

Just becasue the pilot wasn't a Muslim doesnt means it wasn't religiously motivated either.
Also, in answer to the questiion of how the co-pilot couldve known he would be alone....well is imagine that at some point on every flight the pilots go to the toilet or that could've been pure luck obviously, that he got left alone....

CASE in point...

RELIGIOUS intolerance raises it's ugly head again..

EVEN THOUGH Islamic extremism isn't the only flavour of terrorism in this world, it IS the only type that ever appears to be recognised and mentioned by the likes of eddie, Raggs', Tess, Tommy, nicko and Victor ~ AND for reasons known only to themselves. Suspect

by Guest Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:24 pm

Full name Andreas Günter Lubitz according to the Guardian from his flying club records.

by eddie Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:27 pm

Original Quill wrote:
eddie wrote:@Quil that's why I thought it may have been deliberate?

Just becasue the pilot wasn't a Muslim doesnt means it wasn't religiously motivated either.
Also, in answer to the questiion of how the co-pilot couldve known he would be alone....well is imagine that at some point on every flight the pilots go to the toilet or that could've been pure luck obviously, that he got left alone

So do we know if its definitely looking deliberate?

It is looking like it was deliberate.

The pilot was German, and not of Middle Eastern desent. And while we don't know if he had Muslim sympathies, we also don't know if he was a One Direction fan, either. Was he angry about Zayn's plan to go his separate way?

Ah. I never even thought of that! lol!

by Original Quill Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:07 pm

Lone Wolf wrote:

ON LATE NEWS here Thursday night AEDT, it was confirmed by French officials that the pilot was in control until the moment of impact, after analysis of the "black box" recordings.

AS FOR his co-pilot being locked out of the cockpit, it is always possible that he was tricked into leaving there by the pilot somehow, protocols be buggered..

AND AS FAR as some comments here go regarding a suicide pilot as "a monster.." and "..mad or bad." ~ I have no time for such pure guesswork and pointless suppositions without any real world foundation ~ the first facts that one must consider in these cases is the mental condition of the perpetrator of such a mass-killing by suicide :

WAS he of 'sound mind" ?
WAS he totally aware of what he was doing ?
WAS he a genuine "Bad"/Sociopathic/zealot brand of everyday murderous nutter ~ OR was he mentally ill/depressed/delusional ?

UNTIL we hear more about the killler's state of mind, half of the blatant wild guesses, rumours and conspiracy theories put forward are, frankly speaking, no more than a form of 'intellectual masturbation' !!!

Gd point about the co-pilot's state of mind or mental competency. He was young, around 27-29, I forget exactly. But during training in Arizona, he had to take a leave of absence for 'burn out', as the reports characterized it. I would bet they are looking into that rather closely.

The term 'burn out' covers a variety of possibilities, among which might be emotional or mental disturbance. If this crash connects back to his 'burn out' the airline could be on the hook for readmitting him. I would want to look closely at that.

by Guest Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:21 pm

Lone Wolf wrote:
eddie wrote:
@Quil that's why I thought it may have been deliberate?

Just becasue the pilot wasn't a Muslim doesnt means it wasn't religiously motivated either.
Also, in answer to the questiion of how the co-pilot couldve known he would be alone....well is imagine that at some point on every flight the pilots go to the toilet or that could've been pure luck obviously, that he got left alone....

CASE in point...

RELIGIOUS intolerance raises it's ugly head again..

EVEN THOUGH Islamic extremism isn't the only flavour of terrorism in this world, it IS the only type that ever appears to be recognised and mentioned by the likes of eddie, Raggs', Tess, Tommy, nicko and Victor ~ AND for reasons known only to themselves.

I see the village pig is back sqeaking.....

by Guest Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:23 pm

risingsun wrote:Full name Andreas Günter Lubitz according to the Guardian from his flying club records.

Hmmm....

Andreas is a predominantly greek name....

just a thought.......

by Guest Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Well lets face it, this can only be a couple of things that caused this.

1) Mental health issues/suicidal.

2) Hate for the world (though can why not crash into a building as well to attempt to kill more?)

3) Religiously motivated (again unlikely where again why not attempt to cause the most death toll by crashing into a suburban area?)

4) Jilted, was there someone close or known to him on this flight? Was this the best way he could take out the pair of them, whilst still wanting to end his own life in the process.

Hypothetical all of them, but all possibilities

by Guest Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:35 pm

darknessss wrote:
risingsun wrote:Full name Andreas Günter Lubitz according to the Guardian from his flying club records.

Hmmm....

Andreas is a predominantly greek name....

just a thought.......

Lubitz is East German in origin I think.
Anyway, he can still easily be a convert

by veya_victaous Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:42 pm

suicide I think... probably over Zayn
http://www.buzzfeed.com/alanwhite/an-employment-law-firm-claims-hundreds-of-people-have-asked#.jjd6BW473a
they should have given him that compassionate leave Rolling Eyes

Hard to believe but we have received calls from bosses whose staff requested compassionate leave over Zayn Malik leaving 1D

by Guest Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:50 pm

Front page of tomorrows Times

Germanwings Pilot Was Locked Out of Cockpit Before Crash in France CBDwuc1W4AAAmDk

by Cass Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:51 am

way too early for jokes about this in my opinion....149 innocent people including children died.

intact I don't think there will ever be a time that jokes about this would ever be appropriate.

lets remember on the voice recording right at the end you can hear people about to die screaming. in what universe is that a matter for joking.

how awful for the families to lose not only their loved ones but to know it was deliberate ......unthinkable the pain they are in.

watch the news and see the families going to the crash site and then see if you laugh.

by veya_victaous Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:05 am

“Laughter and tears are both responses to frustration and exhaustion. I myself prefer to laugh, since there is less cleaning do to do afterward.”
― Kurt Vonnegut

“The human race has only one really effective weapon and that is laughter.”
― Mark Twain

“There is a thin line that separates laughter and pain, comedy and tragedy, humor and hurt.”
― Erma Bombeck

“My body needs laughter as much as it needs tears. Both are cleansers of stress.”
― Mahogany SilverRain,

“People who stop laughing are always the ones who get hurt.”
― Josh Sundquist, Just Don't Fall: How I Grew Up, Conquered Illness, and Made It Down the Mountain

“You gotta laugh because if you didn't you'd cry”
― Craig Ferguson

“Moderate strength is shown in violence, supreme strength is shown in levity.”
― G.K. Chesterton, The Man Who Was Thursday

by Cass Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:12 am

sorry veya ....I agree with a lot of those quotes but theres a time and place and this, in my opinion, is not it nor will it ever be.

by Raggamuffin Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:50 am

Lone Wolf wrote:
eddie wrote:
@Quil that's why I thought it may have been deliberate?

Just becasue the pilot wasn't a Muslim doesnt means it wasn't religiously motivated either.
Also, in answer to the questiion of how the co-pilot couldve known he would be alone....well is imagine that at some point on every flight the pilots go to the toilet or that could've been pure luck obviously, that he got left alone....

CASE in point...

RELIGIOUS intolerance raises it's ugly head again..

EVEN THOUGH Islamic extremism isn't the only flavour of terrorism in this world, it IS the only type that ever appears to be recognised and mentioned by the likes of eddie, Raggs', Tess, Tommy, nicko and Victor ~ AND for reasons known only to themselves.

I don't often mention religious extremism of any kind actually, but as most of the stuff in the news recently is about Islamic extremism, it would be natural to mention that more than any other kind.

I would have thought that if this was religiously motivated, the chap would have said something - left a message of some kind.

by Guest Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:45 am

Brasidas wrote:Well lets face it, this can only be a couple of things that caused this.

1) Mental health issues/suicidal.

2) Hate for the world (though can why not crash into a building as well to attempt to kill more?)

3) Religiously motivated (again unlikely where again why not attempt to cause the most death toll by crashing into a suburban area?)

4) Jilted, was there someone close or known to him on this flight? Was this the best way he could take out the pair of them, whilst still wanting to end his own life in the process.

Hypothetical all of them, but all possibilities

Here is a summary of the latest updates:

• Investigators are searching Lubitz's flat in Duesseldorf and his parents' home on the edge of Montabaur, a town 60 kilometers (nearly 40 miles) northwest of Frankfurt. According to media reports, police have found a significant clue,although it is reportedly not a suicide note.

On Thursday, French prosecutors said Andreas Lubitz, the co-pilot of Germanwings Flight 9525, "intentionally" crashed the jet into the side of a mountain Tuesday in the French Alps

• Bild newspaper in Germany has a report that Lubitz took a break from flight training and was under psychiatric training for a year and a half. He was diagnosed with a "major depressive episode".

• Lufthansa CEO Carsten Spohr said that Lubitz had suspended his pilot training, which began in 2008, "for a certain period," but did not give more details. Lubitz later continued and was able to qualify for the Airbus A320 in 2013.

• Several airlines have now pledged to change their rules to ensure that two crew members are in the cockpit at all times.

02.00 Reading reports from journalists at Lubitz's house that he was engaged to be married next year. The Daily Star has also separately reported that he had recently split from his partner.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11491587/Airbus-A320-crashes-in-French-Alps-with-148-people-on-board-live.html

by Raggamuffin Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:26 am

Brasidas wrote:
Brasidas wrote:Well lets face it, this can only be a couple of things that caused this.

1) Mental health issues/suicidal.

2) Hate for the world (though can why not crash into a building as well to attempt to kill more?)

3) Religiously motivated (again unlikely where again why not attempt to cause the most death toll by crashing into a suburban area?)

4) Jilted, was there someone close or known to him on this flight? Was this the best way he could take out the pair of them, whilst still wanting to end his own life in the process.

Hypothetical all of them, but all possibilities

Here is a summary of the latest updates:

• Investigators are searching Lubitz's flat in Duesseldorf and his parents' home on the edge of Montabaur, a town 60 kilometers (nearly 40 miles) northwest of Frankfurt. According to media reports, police have found a significant clue,although it is reportedly not a suicide note.

On Thursday, French prosecutors said Andreas Lubitz, the co-pilot of Germanwings Flight 9525, "intentionally" crashed the jet into the side of a mountain Tuesday in the French Alps

• Bild newspaper in Germany has a report that Lubitz took a break from flight training and was under psychiatric training for a year and a half. He was diagnosed with a "major depressive episode".

• Lufthansa CEO Carsten Spohr said that Lubitz had suspended his pilot training, which began in 2008, "for a certain period," but did not give more details. Lubitz later continued and was able to qualify for the Airbus A320 in 2013.

• Several airlines have now pledged to change their rules to ensure that two crew members are in the cockpit at all times.

02.00 Reading reports from journalists at Lubitz's house that he was engaged to be married next year. The Daily Star has also separately reported that he had recently split from his partner.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11491587/Airbus-A320-crashes-in-French-Alps-with-148-people-on-board-live.html

Very interesting. So, according to reports, the chap had suffered from depression at one point. I guess they will be investigating whether or not he was suffering from it recently.

by Guest Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:13 pm

Co-Pilot 'Hid Sick Note On Day Of Alps Crash'

Prosecutors investigating the Germanwings crash have said there were indications the co-pilot hid his illness from his employers.

In a news conference on Friday, the prosecutors said that Andreas Lubitz hid a sick note on the day the Airbus A320 crashed into a mountainside during a flight from Barcelona to Dusseldorf.

The torn-up note, dated on the day of the crash on Tuesday, was found during searches of the 27-year-old's flat in Dusseldorf and the home he shared with his parents in the town of Montabaur.

The prosecutors added that documents showed he was receiving medical treatment, but that no suicide note or claim of responsibility for the crash was found.

They said: "Documents with medical contents were confiscated that point towards an existing illness and corresponding treatment by doctors.

"The fact there are sick notes saying he was unable to work, among other things, that were found torn up, which were recent and even from the day of the crime, support the assumption based on the preliminary examination that the deceased hid his illness from his employer and his professional colleagues."

No evidence of a political or religious motivation behind the crash was found.

Lubitz has been accused of deliberately flying the aircraft into a mountainside shortly after preventing the captain from re-entering the cockpit.

All 150 on board the aircraft died in the crash.

German media has reported that Lubitz received treatment for a "serious depressive episode" six years ago during his training to become a pilot.

On Friday, Germanwings said it was setting up a family assistance centre in Marseille for relatives of those killed in the crash.

Spokesman Thomas Winkelmann said in a statement that "in these dark hours our full attention belongs to the emotional support of the relatives and friends of the victims of Flight 9525."

Some relatives took part in a memorial service on Thursday near the crash site in the French Alps.

German President Joachim Gauck also attended a memorial service in Haltern for 16 students and two teachers from the local high school who were killed.

It comes as police and rescue workers hunt for the aircraft's second black box on the fourth day of recovery operations at the scene of the crash.

Officials are searching the wreckage for body parts and DNA to try and identify the 150 people killed in the crash.

Andreas Lubitz, 27, has been accused of deliberately flying the Airbus A320 into a mountainside

more at: http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/co-pilot-hid-sick-note-on-day-of-alps-crash/ar-AAa4xKb

by Original Quill Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:42 pm

As I understand it, a 'sick note' would give me permission to miss work. It is not necessarily a mandate that I should or must take a day off. I'm asking; does anyone know what the parlance is in Europe?

It would seem to me that so far we have established the co-pilot's illness did not rise to the level that the airline was informed. Apparently it would have been helpful if they had been.

This begs the question, should the airline have set up an independent link with the doctor...or a doctor? These guys are in a critical occupation, and it seems to me that the airlines should have a right to tap into these channels.

by Guest Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:52 pm

Original Quill wrote:As I understand it, a 'sick note' would give me permission to miss work. It is not necessarily a mandate that I should or must take a day off. I'm asking; does anyone know what the parlance is in Europe?

It would seem to me that so far we have established the co-pilot's illness did not rise to the level that the airline was informed. Apparently it would have been helpful if they had been.

This begs the question, should the airline have set up an independent link with the doctor...or a doctor? These guys are in a critical occupation, and it seems to me that the airlines should have a right to tap into these channels.

Don't know about Germany, but if you are signed off sick here (sick note) you are not covered by any insurance if you go to work because your doctor has said you musn't be there. If you want to work, you have to get the doctor to 'sign you on' again. And the doctor doesn't tell your workplace, you do.

by Cass Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:12 pm

the clinic were he was being treated has categorically denied they were seeing him about depression. it was a medical condition.

I agree in principle with what you are saying Quill but its still like the armed forces or really any workplace now - to admit that you are seeking medical help for whatever illness is still seen as a weakness and companies would use it against you. shocking that this still happens in this day and age but unless you work for a very enlightened and compassionate employer most people will stay quiet.

by Original Quill Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:31 pm

@Sassy...T.y. that helps a lot. So there are consequences if you are given a 'sick note'--ie, at a minimum you are denied coverage.

Cass wrote:the clinic were he was being treated has categorically denied they were seeing him about depression. it was a medical condition.

I agree in principle with what you are saying Quill but its still like the armed forces or really any workplace now - to admit that you are seeking medical help for whatever illness is still seen as a weakness and companies would use it against you. shocking that this still happens in this day and age but unless you work for a very enlightened and compassionate employer most people will stay quiet.

@Cass...Yes, as I was writing I was coming to the awareness of the complications. In the beginning, it's between you and your doctor...in a privileged communication. So at some point the patient has to divulge to the employer. And if he thinks the doctor is working for the the company (the "company stooge" as Bill Murray put it) he is less likely to share.

Ultimately, it is material that could be used against him. Even if he was grounded--which appears would have been the correct thing in this case--he might not have wanted it, and would keep quiet. But also, down the line, I can see an employment dispute about benefits or an adverse employment decisions, and I could see how such information could worlk against him...and he wouldn't want to disclose.

by Lone Wolf Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:47 pm

SO !!! The Co-Pilot had undisclosed mental illness; and was hiding essential info' from his bosses..

WHO WAS IT first brought up this possibility last week, among the various loose and free "terrorist", "mad/bad" and conspiracy hypothesizing ?

OH, THAT'S RIGHT ! It was little old moi raised this very probable possibility..

CREDIT where credit's due, please !!! Cool

Thank you all, and Good Night !
Germanwings Pilot Was Locked Out of Cockpit Before Crash in France 1284863816

by Original Quill Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:07 pm

Lone Wolf wrote:

SO !!! The Co-Pilot had undisclosed mental illness; and was hiding essential info' from his bosses..

WHO WAS IT first brought up this possibility last week, among the various loose and free "terrorist", "mad/bad" and conspiracy hypothesizing ?

OH, THAT'S RIGHT ! It was little old moi raised this very probable possibility..

CREDIT where credit's due, please !!!

Thank you all, and Good Night !

Germanwings Pilot Was Locked Out of Cockpit Before Crash in France Smileys-applause-242316

Yes, indeed it was you. Kudos...

This pits the interests of the airlines in the medical records of an employee in a critical occupation, against a patient's privacy rights with regard to the physician/patient privilege. Tarasoff v. Regents of University of California:

Wiki wrote:Tarasoff v. Regents of the University of California, 17 Cal. 3d 425, 551 P.2d 334, 131 Cal. Rptr. 14 (Cal. 1976), was a case in which the Supreme Court of California held that mental health professionals have a duty to protect individuals who are being threatened with bodily harm by a patient. The original 1974 decision mandated warning the threatened individual, but a 1976 rehearing of the case by the California Supreme Court called for a "duty to protect" the intended victim. The professional may discharge the duty in several ways, including notifying police, warning the intended victim, and/or taking other reasonable steps to protect the threatened individual.

Looks like it falls upon the therapist. Of course, that is California and this is Germany. But legal cases, being essentially morality, tend to merge from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

by Cass Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:30 am

apparently there is cell phone video according to 2 French & German publications. The French prosecutor says its not real. I just watched a CNN interview with one French journalist who claims to have watched it with his colleagues over a 100 times and has no doubt its real. He denied they paid any money for it.

http://news.yahoo.com/germanwings-crash-cellphone-video-recovered-bild-175901858.html

if this is real then,
WHO THE (excuse me) FUCK GIVES THAT TO A NEWSPAPER INSTEAD OF THE INVESTIGATORS? ?????

Doesn't matter that they weren't paid, find those assholes and fire their asses and then throw them in jail for obstruction & intereferance and receiving stolen property. FUCKING DISGUSTING COCKROACHES.

by Guest Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:21 am

Cass wrote:apparently there is cell phone video according to 2 French & German publications. The French prosecutor says its not real. I just watched a CNN interview with one French journalist who claims to have watched it with his colleagues over a 100 times and has no doubt its real. He denied they paid any money for it.

http://news.yahoo.com/germanwings-crash-cellphone-video-recovered-bild-175901858.html

if this is real then,
WHO THE (excuse me) FUCK GIVES THAT TO A NEWSPAPER INSTEAD OF THE INVESTIGATORS? ?????

Doesn't matter that they weren't paid, find those assholes and fire their asses and then throw them in jail for obstruction & intereferance and receiving stolen property. FUCKING DISGUSTING COCKROACHES.

If true That is about as low as it gets.

by Original Quill Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:35 pm

Why are the investigators so sacrosanct? They seem to have a bad habit of covering up and generally withholding/manipulating information to steer our opinions and decisions.

It is poignant that this crash was preceded by the Malaysia Airlines MH 370 disappearance. That one taught us a lot about how airlines and authorities misuse the information they are given. I'm not sure I don't want information to go to the media first, if only to protect our interests.

by Cass Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:42 pm

Original Quill wrote:Why are the investigators so sacrosanct? They seem to have a bad habit of covering up and generally withholding/manipulating information to steer our opinions and decisions.

It is poignant that this crash was preceded by the Malaysia Airlines MH 370 disappearance. That one taught us a lot about how airlines and authorities misuse the information they are given. I'm not sure I don't want information to go to the media first, if only to protect our interests.

I think because in this day and age of instant access to news or what can be perceived as news and people are in the habit of demanding to know answers right away and that is usually not possible. It takes time to sort through and investigate and meanwhile grieving family members want answers (which is perfectly normal) but the media keep piling on the pressure with their supposition and alleged breaking news and that just makes it more of a 3 ring circus. The airline companies are also going to want to watch their backs and have pressures on them from either their governments or from investors.

I don't think the companies and/or investigators set out to misuse....they are looking for the facts and that takes time and a lot of effort. You may never find out the answers which is very tragic for those families involved, but it happens.

anyone who steals a dead person's property to pass it on to a journalist is scum. simple as. They had no right doing that and as such should be properly punished.

by Original Quill Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:32 pm

I guess you have to trust them, and I don't. "Sort through and investigate" all too often means 'cover up'.

Germanwings Pilot Was Locked Out of Cockpit Before Crash in France Question-authority-34510685076

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