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THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:06 am
By WALTER SULLIVAN
Published: September 29, 1981
TWO metallurgists at Stanford University, seeking to produce a ''superplastic'' metal, appear to have stumbled on the secret of Damascus steel, the legendary material used by numerous warriors of the past, including the Crusaders. Its formula had been lost for generations.
Analyses of steel by Jeffrey Wadsworth and Oleg D. Sherby, in their search for a highly plastic form, revealed properties almost identical to those they then found in Damascus steel, though their own plastic steel had been produced through contemporary methods.
The remarkable characteristics of Damascus steel became known to Europe when the Crusaders reached the Middle East, beginning in the 11th century. They discovered that swords of this metal could split a feather in midair, yet retain their edge through many a battle with the Saracens. The swords were easily recognized by a characteristic watery or ''damask'' pattern on their blades.
Through the ages - perhaps from the time of Alexander the Great in the fourth century B.C. -the armorers who made swords, shields and armor from such steel were rigidly secretive regarding their method. With the advent of firearms, the secret was lost and never fully rediscovered, despite the efforts of men like P.@P. Anossoff, the Russian metallurgist, who knew the steel as bulat.
In 1841 Anossoff declared: ''Our warriors will soon be armed with bulat blades, our agricultural laborers will till the soil with bulat plow shares. ... Bulat will supersede all steel now employed for the manufacture of articles of special sharpness and endurance.'' Yet his lifelong efforts to fulfill that dream were in vain.
Dr. Wadsworth and Dr. Sherby realized that they might be on the track of the method when a sword fancier, at one of their presentations, pointed out that Damascus steel, like their own product, was very rich in carbon. This led them to conduct comparative analyses of their steels and those of the ancient weapons.
Dr. Wadsworth, while still associated with Stanford, now works at the nearby Lockheed Palo Alto Research Laboratory. Dr. Sherby, a professor at Stanford, is an authority on deformable metals.
When moderately heated, superplastic steel can be shaped into such complex forms as gears for an automobile, with minimal need for machining, leading to major economies in manufacture. Their research, Dr. Wadsworth said recently, has shown how to make steel even more amenable to shaping than the Damascus variety.
A basic requirement, as suspected by a number of early metallurgists, is a very high carbon content. Dr. Wadsworth and Dr. Sherby believe it has to be from 1 to 2 percent, compared to only a fraction of 1 percent in ordinary steel. Another key element in Damascus blade produ ction seems to have beenforging and hammering at relatively low tempe rature - about 1,700 degrees Fahrenheit. After shaping, the blades were apparently reheated to about the same temperature, then rapidly cooled, as by quenching in a fluid. Quenching in 'Dragon Blood'
The secrets of Damascus steel were shared by armorers in many parts of the ancient world, notably in Persia, where some of the finest specimens were produced. It was in the quenching that many believed it acquired magical properties. According to Dr. Helmut Nickel, curator of the Arms and Armor Division of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, legend had it that the best blades were quenched in ''dragon blood.''
In a recent letter to the museum a Pakistani told of a sword held in his family for many generations, quenched by its Afghan makers in donkey urine. Some medieval smiths recommended the urine of redheaded boys or that from a ''three-year-old goat fed only ferns for three days.''
For eight centuries the Arab sword makers succeeded in concealing their techniques from competitors -and from posterity. Those in Europe only revealed that they quenched in ''red medicine'' or ''green medicine.'' A less abrupt form of cooling, according to one account, was achieved when the blade, still red hot, was ''carried ina furious gal lop by a horseman on a fast horse.''
Writings found in Asia Minor said that to temper a Damascus sword the blade must be heated until it glows ''like the sun rising in the desert.'' It then should be cooled to the color of royal purple and plunged ''into the body of a muscular slave'' so that his strength would be transferred to the sword.
In the ancient accounts there is more than one reference to such homicidal quenching. In a recent interview, Dr. Nickel pointed out that while many of the quenching techniques were based on superstition, they may have contributed to the success of the process, as by adding nitrogen to the alloy.
Most, if not all, Damascus steel was derived from blocks of ''wootz,'' a form of steel produced in India. A mystery, to those seeking to recapture the technique, was the property of wootz that produced such blades - malleable when heated, yet extraordinarily tough when cooled. The Structure of Wootz
According to Dr. Wadsworth and Dr. Sherby, before doing his historic work on magnetism, Michael Faraday, himself the son of a blacksmith, sought with J. Stodart, a cutler, to determine the composition of wootz. They incorrectly concluded that the key factor was its silica and aluminum content.
Reports of their findings, published in 1820 and 1822, led Jean Robert Breant, Inspector of Assays at the Paris Mint, to conduct in a six-week period over 300 experiments seeking to reproduce the properties of wootz.
He tried adding to ordinary steel such elements as platinum, gold, silver, copper, tin, zinc, lead, bismuth, manganese, uranium, arsenic and boron. Anossoff even tried diamond. None of the efforts succeeded.
Wootz, it now appears, was apparently prepared in crucibles containing cakes of porous iron plus wood or charcoal to enrich it in carbon. A critical factor, Dr. Wadsworth said, appears to have been that the wootz was processed at temperatures as high as 2,300 degrees. After being held there for days, it was cooled to room temperature over a day or so. It was then shipped to the Middle East for relatively low-temperature fabrication.
This moderate heat preserved enough carbide (in which three atoms of iron are mated to one of carbon) to give the blades great strength, yet not enough to make them brittle. The large carbide grains gave the blades their typical watery pattern.
The superplastic steel developed at Stanford is kept at high temperature for only a few hours. It is shaped during cooling, reheated to moderate temperature for further working and may then be quenched to achieve extreme hardness. This process, Dr. Wadsworth said, produces very small carbide grains and hence even greater hardness and ductility than in Damascus steel.
According to Dr. Nickel, once blades of Damascus steel had been rough-shaped by hammering, they were ground to a fine edge. When they were hammered chiefly on one side, a curved shape resulted - the origin of the sabre, he said.
The finest blades ever made, he added, were the Samurai swords of Japan, whose blades may contain a million layers of steel. The layers resulted from hammering out a bar to double its original length, then folding it over as many as 32 times.
The multiple layers used by the Japanese and by makers of the Malay dagger or kris are sometimes referr ed to as ' 'welded Damascus steel.'' Although the production method diffe rs from that of true Damascus steel, the blades may show a very si milar pattern.
Dr. Wadsworth said a number of knife-making societies, such as The Anvil's Ring, which has 1,500 members, have sought to learn details of the Stanford findings. The research is described in Volume 25 of Progress in Materials Science, a British publication.
http://www.nytimes.com/1981/09/29/science/the-mystery-of-damascus-steel-appears-solved.html
Published: September 29, 1981
TWO metallurgists at Stanford University, seeking to produce a ''superplastic'' metal, appear to have stumbled on the secret of Damascus steel, the legendary material used by numerous warriors of the past, including the Crusaders. Its formula had been lost for generations.
Analyses of steel by Jeffrey Wadsworth and Oleg D. Sherby, in their search for a highly plastic form, revealed properties almost identical to those they then found in Damascus steel, though their own plastic steel had been produced through contemporary methods.
The remarkable characteristics of Damascus steel became known to Europe when the Crusaders reached the Middle East, beginning in the 11th century. They discovered that swords of this metal could split a feather in midair, yet retain their edge through many a battle with the Saracens. The swords were easily recognized by a characteristic watery or ''damask'' pattern on their blades.
Through the ages - perhaps from the time of Alexander the Great in the fourth century B.C. -the armorers who made swords, shields and armor from such steel were rigidly secretive regarding their method. With the advent of firearms, the secret was lost and never fully rediscovered, despite the efforts of men like P.@P. Anossoff, the Russian metallurgist, who knew the steel as bulat.
In 1841 Anossoff declared: ''Our warriors will soon be armed with bulat blades, our agricultural laborers will till the soil with bulat plow shares. ... Bulat will supersede all steel now employed for the manufacture of articles of special sharpness and endurance.'' Yet his lifelong efforts to fulfill that dream were in vain.
Dr. Wadsworth and Dr. Sherby realized that they might be on the track of the method when a sword fancier, at one of their presentations, pointed out that Damascus steel, like their own product, was very rich in carbon. This led them to conduct comparative analyses of their steels and those of the ancient weapons.
Dr. Wadsworth, while still associated with Stanford, now works at the nearby Lockheed Palo Alto Research Laboratory. Dr. Sherby, a professor at Stanford, is an authority on deformable metals.
When moderately heated, superplastic steel can be shaped into such complex forms as gears for an automobile, with minimal need for machining, leading to major economies in manufacture. Their research, Dr. Wadsworth said recently, has shown how to make steel even more amenable to shaping than the Damascus variety.
A basic requirement, as suspected by a number of early metallurgists, is a very high carbon content. Dr. Wadsworth and Dr. Sherby believe it has to be from 1 to 2 percent, compared to only a fraction of 1 percent in ordinary steel. Another key element in Damascus blade produ ction seems to have beenforging and hammering at relatively low tempe rature - about 1,700 degrees Fahrenheit. After shaping, the blades were apparently reheated to about the same temperature, then rapidly cooled, as by quenching in a fluid. Quenching in 'Dragon Blood'
The secrets of Damascus steel were shared by armorers in many parts of the ancient world, notably in Persia, where some of the finest specimens were produced. It was in the quenching that many believed it acquired magical properties. According to Dr. Helmut Nickel, curator of the Arms and Armor Division of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, legend had it that the best blades were quenched in ''dragon blood.''
In a recent letter to the museum a Pakistani told of a sword held in his family for many generations, quenched by its Afghan makers in donkey urine. Some medieval smiths recommended the urine of redheaded boys or that from a ''three-year-old goat fed only ferns for three days.''
For eight centuries the Arab sword makers succeeded in concealing their techniques from competitors -and from posterity. Those in Europe only revealed that they quenched in ''red medicine'' or ''green medicine.'' A less abrupt form of cooling, according to one account, was achieved when the blade, still red hot, was ''carried ina furious gal lop by a horseman on a fast horse.''
Writings found in Asia Minor said that to temper a Damascus sword the blade must be heated until it glows ''like the sun rising in the desert.'' It then should be cooled to the color of royal purple and plunged ''into the body of a muscular slave'' so that his strength would be transferred to the sword.
In the ancient accounts there is more than one reference to such homicidal quenching. In a recent interview, Dr. Nickel pointed out that while many of the quenching techniques were based on superstition, they may have contributed to the success of the process, as by adding nitrogen to the alloy.
Most, if not all, Damascus steel was derived from blocks of ''wootz,'' a form of steel produced in India. A mystery, to those seeking to recapture the technique, was the property of wootz that produced such blades - malleable when heated, yet extraordinarily tough when cooled. The Structure of Wootz
According to Dr. Wadsworth and Dr. Sherby, before doing his historic work on magnetism, Michael Faraday, himself the son of a blacksmith, sought with J. Stodart, a cutler, to determine the composition of wootz. They incorrectly concluded that the key factor was its silica and aluminum content.
Reports of their findings, published in 1820 and 1822, led Jean Robert Breant, Inspector of Assays at the Paris Mint, to conduct in a six-week period over 300 experiments seeking to reproduce the properties of wootz.
He tried adding to ordinary steel such elements as platinum, gold, silver, copper, tin, zinc, lead, bismuth, manganese, uranium, arsenic and boron. Anossoff even tried diamond. None of the efforts succeeded.
Wootz, it now appears, was apparently prepared in crucibles containing cakes of porous iron plus wood or charcoal to enrich it in carbon. A critical factor, Dr. Wadsworth said, appears to have been that the wootz was processed at temperatures as high as 2,300 degrees. After being held there for days, it was cooled to room temperature over a day or so. It was then shipped to the Middle East for relatively low-temperature fabrication.
This moderate heat preserved enough carbide (in which three atoms of iron are mated to one of carbon) to give the blades great strength, yet not enough to make them brittle. The large carbide grains gave the blades their typical watery pattern.
The superplastic steel developed at Stanford is kept at high temperature for only a few hours. It is shaped during cooling, reheated to moderate temperature for further working and may then be quenched to achieve extreme hardness. This process, Dr. Wadsworth said, produces very small carbide grains and hence even greater hardness and ductility than in Damascus steel.
According to Dr. Nickel, once blades of Damascus steel had been rough-shaped by hammering, they were ground to a fine edge. When they were hammered chiefly on one side, a curved shape resulted - the origin of the sabre, he said.
The finest blades ever made, he added, were the Samurai swords of Japan, whose blades may contain a million layers of steel. The layers resulted from hammering out a bar to double its original length, then folding it over as many as 32 times.
The multiple layers used by the Japanese and by makers of the Malay dagger or kris are sometimes referr ed to as ' 'welded Damascus steel.'' Although the production method diffe rs from that of true Damascus steel, the blades may show a very si milar pattern.
Dr. Wadsworth said a number of knife-making societies, such as The Anvil's Ring, which has 1,500 members, have sought to learn details of the Stanford findings. The research is described in Volume 25 of Progress in Materials Science, a British publication.
http://www.nytimes.com/1981/09/29/science/the-mystery-of-damascus-steel-appears-solved.html
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:07 am
There are some things we can't do, but we are fast figuring out the possible ways they were done. In these cases, though, we can only make an educated guess based on what we do know.
For example, Damascus steel, a type of steel prized for its strength and durablility. The actual process to make this steel has been lost since the 1750's.
It as a distinct pattern, and only until recently, no one has ever been truly able to copy it. Now, metalsmiths are able to create Damascus steel with techniques that reproduce the quality and distinctive patterns. But, without knowing how it was originally made, we can only assume our modern methods are at least close.
Same with the Ulfberht Viking swords.
The metalurgy of these swords is not the item in question, but rather, the method of adding the name "Ulfberht", possibly the maker, to the blade. PBS's Nova did a wonderful episode on the process of trying to figure out the method of identifying the blade.
For example, Damascus steel, a type of steel prized for its strength and durablility. The actual process to make this steel has been lost since the 1750's.
It as a distinct pattern, and only until recently, no one has ever been truly able to copy it. Now, metalsmiths are able to create Damascus steel with techniques that reproduce the quality and distinctive patterns. But, without knowing how it was originally made, we can only assume our modern methods are at least close.
Same with the Ulfberht Viking swords.
The metalurgy of these swords is not the item in question, but rather, the method of adding the name "Ulfberht", possibly the maker, to the blade. PBS's Nova did a wonderful episode on the process of trying to figure out the method of identifying the blade.
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Ben Reilly Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:31 am
Sci-fi, y'all -- forever describing technologies lost and redisccovered millenia later 
Ben Reilly- King of Texas. Gigantic Killer Robot. Robin Hood of Epping Forest. Fifty Shades of Cray.
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Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:35 am
Yes yes everybody but you is wrong including the actual experts ,videos,websites,published papers ,TWO metallurgists at Stanford University all wrong and you know better than them ....truly your hubris is astounding .Brasidas wrote:There are some things we can't do, but we are fast figuring out the possible ways they were done. In these cases, though, we can only make an educated guess based on what we do know.
For example, Damascus steel, a type of steel prized for its strength and durablility. The actual process to make this steel has been lost since the 1750's.
untilat the erliest 1981 did you see the date on the above post
It as a distinct pattern, and only until recently, no one has ever been truly able to copy it. Now, metalsmiths are able to create Damascus steel with techniques that reproduce the quality and distinctive patterns. But, without knowing how it was originally made, we can only assume our modern methods are at least close.
Same with the Ulfberht Viking swords.
The metalurgy of these swords is not the item in question, but rather, the method of adding the name "Ulfberht", possibly the maker, to the blade. PBS's Nova did a wonderful episode on the process of trying to figure out the method of identifying the blade.
Still not fixed that quote then ?kind of proves my point you wont admit when you get things wrong
and you don`t read the things you post for accuracy just any thing that fits
when facts and evidence are plentiful just denying them or claiming they are not the same when they clearly are
is very immature
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:36 am
Battle star galactica new versionBen_Reilly wrote:Sci-fi, y'all -- forever describing technologies lost and redisccovered millenia later
loved the series finale of that
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:41 am
korban dallas wrote:Yes yes everybody but you is wrong including the actual experts ,videos,websites,published papers ,TWO metallurgists at Stanford University all wrong and you know better than them ....truly your hubris is astounding .Brasidas wrote:There are some things we can't do, but we are fast figuring out the possible ways they were done. In these cases, though, we can only make an educated guess based on what we do know.
For example, Damascus steel, a type of steel prized for its strength and durablility. The actual process to make this steel has been lost since the 1750's.
untilat the erliest 1981 did you see the date on the above post
It as a distinct pattern, and only until recently, no one has ever been truly able to copy it. Now, metalsmiths are able to create Damascus steel with techniques that reproduce the quality and distinctive patterns. But, without knowing how it was originally made, we can only assume our modern methods are at least close.
Same with the Ulfberht Viking swords.
The metalurgy of these swords is not the item in question, but rather, the method of adding the name "Ulfberht", possibly the maker, to the blade. PBS's Nova did a wonderful episode on the process of trying to figure out the method of identifying the blade.
Still not fixed that quote then ?kind of proves my point you wont admit when you get things wrong
and you don`t read the things you post for accuracy just any thing that fits
when facts and evidence are plentiful just denying them or claiming they are not the same when they clearly are
is very immature
Lets look at the facts, the method was lost and is still not known how it was done.
Others have if anything stumbled upon near enough the same type of steel, which is actually making more my poi t on this on how we lose the ability of something to only then find again. Though here they still are unsure how they made this, all of which is what I have stated.
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:49 am
Dude up until 1981 i would have agreed with you but not any more the facts don`t support your position as i have shownBrasidas wrote:korban dallas wrote:
Yes yes everybody but you is wrong including the actual experts ,videos,websites,published papers ,TWO metallurgists at Stanford University all wrong and you know better than them ....truly your hubris is astounding .
Still not fixed that quote then ?kind of proves my point you wont admit when you get things wrong
and you don`t read the things you post for accuracy just any thing that fits
when facts and evidence are plentiful just denying them or claiming they are not the same when they clearly are
is very immature
Lets look at the facts, the method was lost and is still not known how it was done.
Others have if anything stumbled upon near enough the same type of steel, which is actually making more my poi t on this on how we lose the ability of something to only then find again. Though here they still are unsure how they made this, all of which is what I have stated.
your argument is the same as greek fire we dont know how they managed that ether or at least projected it as far as claimed ,or the polished shields on a hill site use to burn ships all story from antiquity and ripe for research ,but as far as Damascus steel goes
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:51 am
korban dallas wrote:Dude up until 1981 i would have agreed with you but not any more the facts don`t support your position as i have shownBrasidas wrote:
Lets look at the facts, the method was lost and is still not known how it was done.
Others have if anything stumbled upon near enough the same type of steel, which is actually making more my poi t on this on how we lose the ability of something to only then find again. Though here they still are unsure how they made this, all of which is what I have stated.
your argument is the same as greek fire we dont know how they managed that ether or at least projected it as far as claimed ,or the polished shields on a hill site use to burn ships all story from antiquity and ripe for research ,but as far as Damascus steel goes
They still have not worked out how they originally did this Korben, no matter what you say and finding something by accident furthers proves my point on how things are reinvented.
This is what you are missing the whole issue over.
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:00 am
your mixing up method and recipe we never lost the method just the recipe for Damascus steel rediscovered in 1981Brasidas wrote:korban dallas wrote:
Yes yes everybody but you is wrong including the actual experts ,videos,websites,published papers ,TWO metallurgists at Stanford University all wrong and you know better than them ....truly your hubris is astounding .
Still not fixed that quote then ?kind of proves my point you wont admit when you get things wrong
and you don`t read the things you post for accuracy just any thing that fits
when facts and evidence are plentiful just denying them or claiming they are not the same when they clearly are
is very immature
Lets look at the facts, the method was lost ( i don't disagree )and is still not known how it was done.(i disagree we know how it was done,but just not the recipe till 1981 )
Others have if anything stumbled upon near enough the same type of steel, which is actually making more my poi t on this on how we lose the ability of something to only then find again. (but your saying they din`t find it that the evidence i gave you is not Damascus that you claim we cant replicate yet we can as of circa 1981) Though here they still are unsure how they made this, (till 1981 yes after 1981 they did )all of which is what I have stated.
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:02 am
No they still do not know how they did this exactly in the past, they are again second guessing just as you are now also.
The facts are they stumbled on something very similar which it even eludes to in your report.
They had certainly lost the method, you just will not accept that fact
The facts are they stumbled on something very similar which it even eludes to in your report.
They had certainly lost the method, you just will not accept that fact
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:04 am
5. Damascus Steel
Damascus steel was an impossibly strong type of metal that was widely used in the Middle East from 1100-1700 AD. It is most famously associated with swords and knives. Blades forged with Damascus steel were known for their amazing strength and cutting ability, and were said to be able to slice rocks and other metals—including the blades of weaker swords—cleanly in half. The blades are believed to have been created using wootz steel, which was most likely imported from India and Sri Lanka and molded and blended to create a patterned blade. The special quality of the swords is thought to have derived from this process, which weaved together tough cementite and soft iron to form a metal that was as strong as it was flexible.
How was it Lost?
The particular process for forging Damascus steel appears to have disappeared sometime around 1750 AD. The exact cause for the loss of the technique is unknown, but there are several theories. The most popular is that the supply of ores needed for the special recipe for Damascus steel started running low, and sword makers were forced to develop other techniques. Another is that the whole recipe for Damascus steel—specifically the presence of carbon nanotubes—was only discovered by accident, and that sword smiths didn’t actually know the technique by heart. Instead, they would simply forge the swords en masse, and test them to determine which met the standards of Damascus steel. Whatever the technique, Damascus steel is one technology that modern experimenters have been unable to fully reproduce. There are pattern welded knives that are marketed as being made from “Damascened steel”, but while usually well made, they are only approximations of the lost technique for real Damascus steel.http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-lost-technologies.php
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:05 am
but not only i am saying it people experts in the field are saying this.Brasidas wrote:korban dallas wrote:
Dude up until 1981 i would have agreed with you but not any more the facts don`t support your position as i have shown
your argument is the same as greek fire we dont know how they managed that ether or at least projected it as far as claimed ,or the polished shields on a hill site use to burn ships all story from antiquity and ripe for research ,but as far as Damascus steel goes
They still have not worked out how they originally did this Korben, no matter what you say and finding something by accident furthers proves my point on how things are reinvented.
This is what you are missing the whole issue over.
we never lost the ability to make forged weapons
justthe recipe
all steel has a recipe more carbon less carbon ect ect it determines it make up its strength we lost the recipe not the ability
if i have flour eggs and milk and butter and a oven doesn't follow i can bake a chocolate cake same
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:07 am
I suggest you read again:
http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-lost-technologies.php
How was it Lost?
The particular process for forging Damascus steel appears to have disappeared sometime around 1750 AD. The exact cause for the loss of the technique is unknown, but there are several theories. The most popular is that the supply of ores needed for the special recipe for Damascus steel started running low, and sword makers were forced to develop other techniques. Another is that the whole recipe for Damascus steel—specifically the presence of carbon nanotubes—was only discovered by accident, and that sword smiths didn’t actually know the technique by heart. Instead, they would simply forge the swords en masse, and test them to determine which met the standards of Damascus steel. Whatever the technique, Damascus steel is one technology that modern experimenters have been unable to fully reproduce. There are pattern welded knives that are marketed as being made from “Damascened steel”, but while usually well made, they are only approximations of the lost technique for real Damascus steel.http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-lost-technologies.php
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:07 am
yes that proves my point nicely thanksBrasidas wrote:5. Damascus Steel
Damascus steel was an impossibly strong type of metal that was widely used in the Middle East from 1100-1700 AD. It is most famously associated with swords and knives. Blades forged with Damascus steel were known for their amazing strength and cutting ability, and were said to be able to slice rocks and other metals—including the blades of weaker swords—cleanly in half. The blades are believed to have been created using wootz steel, which was most likely imported from India and Sri Lanka and molded and blended to create a patterned blade. The special quality of the swords is thought to have derived from this process, which weaved together tough cementite and soft iron to form a metal that was as strong as it was flexible.How was it Lost?
The particular process for forging Damascus steel appears to have disappeared sometime around 1750 AD. The exact cause for the loss of the technique is unknown, but there are several theories. The most popular is that the supply of ores needed for the special recipe for Damascus steel started running low, and sword makers were forced to develop other techniques. Another is that the whole recipe for Damascus steel—specifically the presence of carbon nanotubes—was only discovered by accident, and that sword smiths didn’t actually know the technique by heart. Instead, they would simply forge the swords en masse, and test them to determine which met the standards of Damascus steel. Whatever the technique, Damascus steel is one technology that modern experimenters have been unable to fully reproduce. There are pattern welded knives that are marketed as being made from “Damascened steel”, but while usually well made, they are only approximations of the lost technique for real Damascus steel.
http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-lost-technologies.php
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:11 am
No it does not as seen you need to read more than one part of the article:
Like I said this shows they do not know who it is made and what is made is not even the same.
Last week, a tweet by Dr. Rubidium drew my attention to research on another mysterious ancient technology — Damascus steel. Renowned and practically legendary for its strength, flexibility, and ability to retain a sharp edge, Damascus steel was forged into weapons and armor in the Middle East from roughly 300 B.C.E. to 1700 C.E. The precise technique of its forging was lost, but many of the weapons survive. In 2006, researchers at Technische Universität Dresden performed an analysis of a piece of Damascus steel and found that it contains traces of very state of the art modern nanotechnology! Could this be the secret of the steel’s strength?
http://skullsinthestars.com/2011/09/01/ancient-swords-modern-nanotechnology/
The worst thing about this thread is that it was a non-starteeer on your part, wishing to carry on some silly spat.
On all counts as seen you are wrong, best you learn to move on.
Like I said this shows they do not know who it is made and what is made is not even the same.
Last week, a tweet by Dr. Rubidium drew my attention to research on another mysterious ancient technology — Damascus steel. Renowned and practically legendary for its strength, flexibility, and ability to retain a sharp edge, Damascus steel was forged into weapons and armor in the Middle East from roughly 300 B.C.E. to 1700 C.E. The precise technique of its forging was lost, but many of the weapons survive. In 2006, researchers at Technische Universität Dresden performed an analysis of a piece of Damascus steel and found that it contains traces of very state of the art modern nanotechnology! Could this be the secret of the steel’s strength?
http://skullsinthestars.com/2011/09/01/ancient-swords-modern-nanotechnology/
The worst thing about this thread is that it was a non-starteeer on your part, wishing to carry on some silly spat.
On all counts as seen you are wrong, best you learn to move on.
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:12 am
Not sure how toptenz.net beats Stanford university metallurgy departmentBrasidas wrote:I suggest you read again:How was it Lost?
The particular process for forging Damascus steel appears to have disappeared sometime around 1750 AD. The exact cause for the loss of the technique is unknown, but there are several theories. The most popular is that the supply of ores needed for the special recipe for Damascus steel started running low, and sword makers were forced to develop other techniques. Another is that the whole recipe for Damascus steel—specifically the presence of carbon nanotubes—was only discovered by accident, and that sword smiths didn’t actually know the technique by heart. Instead, they would simply forge the swords en masse, and test them to determine which met the standards of Damascus steel. Whatever the technique, Damascus steel is one technology that modern experimenters have been unable to fully reproduce. There are pattern welded knives that are marketed as being made from “Damascened steel”, but while usually well made, they are only approximations of the lost technique for real Damascus steel.
http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-lost-technologies.php
if this is the sort of informed information you use from a fringe "top ten" web site to prove your case then ......well i really don`t know what to say
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:13 am
Stanford, claiming they have found the method?
I suggest you read again, as I say this was a thread started by you because you were wound up over nothing, so intent in wanting to be right and you have come unstuck.
Never mind better luck next time buddy.
I suggest you read again, as I say this was a thread started by you because you were wound up over nothing, so intent in wanting to be right and you have come unstuck.
Never mind better luck next time buddy.
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:15 am
you brought up the subject repeatedly as an example ,why did it not justify discussion ,Any lawyer will tell you don`t ask a question you don`t know the answer tooBrasidas wrote:No it does not as seen you need to read more than one part of the article:
Like I said this shows they do not know who it is made and what is made is not even the same.
Last week, a tweet by Dr. Rubidium drew my attention to research on another mysterious ancient technology — Damascus steel. Renowned and practically legendary for its strength, flexibility, and ability to retain a sharp edge, Damascus steel was forged into weapons and armor in the Middle East from roughly 300 B.C.E. to 1700 C.E. The precise technique of its forging was lost, but many of the weapons survive. In 2006, researchers at Technische Universität Dresden performed an analysis of a piece of Damascus steel and found that it contains traces of very state of the art modern nanotechnology! Could this be the secret of the steel’s strength?
http://skullsinthestars.com/2011/09/01/ancient-swords-modern-nanotechnology/
The worst thing about this thread is that it was a non-starteeer on your part, wishing to carry on some silly spat.
On all counts as seen you are wrong, best you learn to move on.
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:17 am
first lineBrasidas wrote:Stanford, claiming they have found the method?
I suggest you read again, as I say this was a thread started by you because you were wound up over nothing, so intent in wanting to be right and you have come unstuck.
Never mind better luck next time buddy.
TWO metallurgists at Stanford University, seeking to produce a ''superplastic'' metal, appear to have stumbled on the secret of Damascus steel,
ps that wound up jibe that called projection something you do a lot
not a doctor
Last edited by korban dallas on Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:19 am; edited 1 time in total
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:18 am
I did know the answer to the question and again you have come up short. Again you started this thread because you are still smarting over the other thread.
Like I said learn to move on, the evidence is here theat the original precise technich is lost.
That is game over and all I need to say on the matter.
So thanks for your interest but in this case you come up very short.
Like I said learn to move on, the evidence is here theat the original precise technich is lost.
That is game over and all I need to say on the matter.
So thanks for your interest but in this case you come up very short.
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:20 am
korban dallas wrote:first lineBrasidas wrote:Stanford, claiming they have found the method?
I suggest you read again, as I say this was a thread started by you because you were wound up over nothing, so intent in wanting to be right and you have come unstuck.
Never mind better luck next time buddy.
TWO metallurgists at Stanford University, seeking to produce a ''superplastic'' metal, appear to have stumbled on the secret of Damascus steel,
What is wrong with that word as a means for your claim?
That is why your evidence falls flat which again does not explain how we still do not know the original precise technics they used, which you at each turn avoid.
Not going to go around in circles because you will not accept the facts.
So thanks for your input, in this case you are wrong.
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:22 am
delusional as always dirge and the evidence is all on my sideBrasidas wrote:I did know the answer to the question and again you have come up short. Again you started this thread because you are still smarting over the other thread.
Like I said learn to move on, the evidence is here theat the original precise technich is lost.
That is game over and all I need to say on the matter.
So thanks for your interest but in this case you come up very short.
your a foolish old man
a very foolish man indeed
dream on buttercup
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:25 am
So now the insults start where none are given.
I rest my case.
I rest my case.
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:27 am
from a guywho for a day or two has refused to accept real facts that`s quite richBrasidas wrote:korban dallas wrote:
first line
TWO metallurgists at Stanford University, seeking to produce a ''superplastic'' metal, appear to have stumbled on the secret of Damascus steel,
What is wrong with that word as a means for your claim?
That is why your evidence falls flat which again does not explain how we still do not know the original precise technics they used, which you at each turn avoid.
Not going to go around in circles because you will not accept the facts.
So thanks for your input, in this case you are wrong.
Stanford University or spooky net what has the most creditability not your fringe wakadoodle web site thats for sure
are you really david ike ...be honest own up
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:28 am
More insults, which proves you have lost the debate.
Thanks
Thanks
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:29 am
insult ? what that your delusional hardly a insult but a statement of fact you get your information from a fringe web site and try to defend it to the hilt if thats not delusional then i don`t know what isBrasidas wrote:So now the insults start where none are given.
I rest my case.
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:31 am
Is that all you have now claims to the sites used as evidence where even your own says "appears" not that it is.
Facts are facts the ancient precise technics have been lost.
Facts are facts the ancient precise technics have been lost.
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:32 am
now you see insults every where ? Oooooo sorry you seem to be under the impresiion i give a shit what you claim in your delusional state your like the boy who cries wolf just with a lot more cryingBrasidas wrote:More insults, which proves you have lost the debate.
Thanks
me me me i know better that a university me me me that's what you come over as, needy
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:34 am
Really did not understand any of your last post, so I guess this debate is over, well we both know it was before it started, but thanks, it was enjoyable, even if we still come to the same conclusion the exact precise technic of making this unique metal is still lost.
Cheers.
Cheers.
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:34 am
i have Stanford University,you ,well you have swat ,zip ,nothing nada a one paragraph blog on a top ten web siteBrasidas wrote:Is that all you have now claims to the sites used as evidence where even your own says "appears" not that it is.
Facts are facts the ancient precise technics have been lost.
hardly stunning credentials
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:36 am
korban dallas wrote:i have Stanford University,you ,well you have swat ,zip ,nothing nada a one paragraph blog on a top ten web siteBrasidas wrote:Is that all you have now claims to the sites used as evidence where even your own says "appears" not that it is.
Facts are facts the ancient precise technics have been lost.
hardly stunning credentials
Your link does not state it is the same, appears, is a not a word one denotes with as being the same.
Now if you wish to conintue this little tantrum you bare having be my guest, but it is getting very boring.
Facts are facts, they have lost the original precise technic that was used.
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:37 am
yes the amount of bullsit you produce is visible to allBrasidas wrote:Really did not understand any of your last post, so I guess this debate is over, well we both know it was before it started, but thanks, it was enjoyable, even if we still come to the same conclusion the exact precise technic of making this unique metal is still lost.
Cheers.
so thank you
Dance jester dance for me
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:39 am
korban dallas wrote:yes the amount of bullsit you produce is visible to allBrasidas wrote:Really did not understand any of your last post, so I guess this debate is over, well we both know it was before it started, but thanks, it was enjoyable, even if we still come to the same conclusion the exact precise technic of making this unique metal is still lost.
Cheers.
so thank you
Dance jester dance for me
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:41 am
says the guy having a tatrum your worse than bonny langford ,yes proved wrong again so run away you would`t know a fact if it smacked you in the face your a very silly delusional personBrasidas wrote:korban dallas wrote:
i have Stanford University,you ,well you have swat ,zip ,nothing nada a one paragraph blog on a top ten web site
hardly stunning credentials
Your link does not state it is the same, appears, is a not a word one denotes with as being the same.
Now if you wish to conintue this little tantrum you bare having be my guest, but it is getting very boring.
Facts are facts, they have lost the original precise technic that was used.
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:42 am
Lost for words ...it`s about time .......go on take your time i can waitBrasidas wrote:korban dallas wrote:
yes the amount of bullsit you produce is visible to all
so thank you
Dance jester dance for me
Last edited by korban dallas on Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:42 am; edited 1 time in total
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:42 am
korban dallas wrote:says the guy having a tatrum your worse than bonny langford ,yes proved wrong again so run away you would`t know a fact if it smacked you in the face your a very silly delusional personBrasidas wrote:
Your link does not state it is the same, appears, is a not a word one denotes with as being the same.
Now if you wish to conintue this little tantrum you bare having be my guest, but it is getting very boring.
Facts are facts, they have lost the original precise technic that was used.
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:43 am
can he go for three but but butBrasidas wrote:korban dallas wrote:
says the guy having a tatrum your worse than bonny langford ,yes proved wrong again so run away you would`t know a fact if it smacked you in the face your a very silly delusional person
PS still NOT John Lennon
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:44 am
korban dallas wrote:can he go for three but but butBrasidas wrote:
PS still NOT John Lennon
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:47 am
korban dallas wrote:Yes this is what happens when you run out of copy and pasted to prove a point your left with silly picturesBrasidas wrote:
yaaa hows it looking from the bottom of that barrel
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:47 am
Yes this is what happens when you run out of copy and pasted to prove a point your left with silly picturesBrasidas wrote:korban dallas wrote:
can he go for three but but but
PS still NOT John Lennon
yaaa hows it looking from the bottom of that barrel
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:47 am
korban dallas wrote:Yes this is what happens when you run out of copy and pasted to prove a point your left with silly picturesBrasidas wrote:
yaaa hows it looking from the bottom of that barrel
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:49 am
Er......who me far from it my typeing is improving my spelling as well it all great for me plus i am taking to you a peson who knows zip about zipBrasidas wrote:korban dallas wrote:
Yes this is what happens when you run out of copy and pasted to prove a point your left with silly pictures
yaaa hows it looking from the bottom of that barrel
i haven't even broken a sweat
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:50 am
korban dallas wrote:Er......who me far from it my typeing is improving my spelling as well it all great for me plus i am taking to you a peson who knows zip about zipBrasidas wrote:
i haven't even broken a sweat
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:51 am
Ohdear i think i broke dodgy he seems to have gone in to a picture loopBrasidas wrote:korban dallas wrote:
Yes this is what happens when you run out of copy and pasted to prove a point your left with silly pictures
yaaa hows it looking from the bottom of that barrel
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:52 am
korban dallas wrote:Ohdear i think i broke dodgy he seems to have gone in to a picture loopBrasidas wrote:
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:55 am
can somebody re boot dogy his processer seems to have over heated and is in a nested loop losing your temper will do that to you dude you should keep an eye on that if i was you ....try a fan on your desk might help failing that anger management classesBrasidas wrote:korban dallas wrote:
Ohdear i think i broke dodgy he seems to have gone in to a picture loop
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:56 am
Who are you talking too Korben?
That is clear symptons of:
http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/psychiatric_disorders/dissociative_disorders/dissociative_identity_disorder.html
That is clear symptons of:
http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/psychiatric_disorders/dissociative_disorders/dissociative_identity_disorder.html
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:02 am
Er.....the forum ...that what we do hear ?? talk to each other with a series of posts ......you have been doing it too ..........honesty a big fan right on your deskBrasidas wrote:Who are you talking too Korben?
That is clear symptons of:
http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/psychiatric_disorders/dissociative_disorders/dissociative_identity_disorder.html
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:04 am
korban dallas wrote:Er.....the forum ...that what we do hear ?? talk to each other with a series of posts ......you have been doing it too ..........honesty a big fan right on your deskBrasidas wrote:Who are you talking too Korben?
That is clear symptons of:
http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/psychiatric_disorders/dissociative_disorders/dissociative_identity_disorder.html
Nobody is responding to you cries for help.
You are thus seeking attention, showing you need support, that is really quite sad when you think about it.
Seriously, this is what I mean about people not admitting when they are wrong and being able to move on.
Shame really.
Guest- Guest
Re: THE MYSTERY OF DAMASCUS STEEL APPEARS SOLVED
by Guest Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:05 am
no mate that calledBrasidas wrote:Who are you talking too Korben?
That is clear symptons of:
http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/psychiatric_disorders/dissociative_disorders/dissociative_identity_disorder.html
Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against unpleasant impulses by denying their existence in themselves, while attributing them to others. For example, a person who is rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude.
And that shoe is Taylor made for you
ps
NOT a doctor
PPS and nether are you
Guest- Guest
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