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Terror Alert may be downgraded from “beheading” to “plastic swords”
by veya_victaous Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:06 am
First topic message reminder :
by Amy Gray, more here
http://www.thevine.com.au/life/10things/10-things-its-the-mostly-good-news-20141008-288077/?utm_source=thevine&utm_medium=featured-rotator&utm_campaign=internal-testing
Terror Alert may be downgraded from “beheading” to “plastic swords”
When Mustafa Dirani’s home was raided in September, the heavy throng of police were photographed taking a sword from his home. Even though his home was searched for 8 hours with items seized by the police, Dirani was released without charge.
It may be because the sword taken from his home was plastic. Not only was the sword plastic but it is so ubiquitous in Shiite homes that it would have been immediately discounted as evidence if the police had someone with community knowledge with them - probably the same people who could tell the police that it’s rare to find a Shiite terrorist - almost as rare as finding a Shiite sword sharp enough you could “cut a cucumber with it”
The Australian Federal Police will not confirm the sword is plastic nor will they return it, quite possibly because Scott Morrison is still playing with it in his Super Security No Julies Allowed Mega Mecha Awesome Christified Agency.
No word on whether George “Bigot” Brandis is expanding ASIO’s powers to raid homes for party poppers and unattended showbags but Miranda Devine is going undercover to find out what it’s like to be a slice of Fairy Bread left on a ping pong table.
by Amy Gray, more here
http://www.thevine.com.au/life/10things/10-things-its-the-mostly-good-news-20141008-288077/?utm_source=thevine&utm_medium=featured-rotator&utm_campaign=internal-testing
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Re: Terror Alert may be downgraded from “beheading” to “plastic swords”
by Guest Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:15 pm
Sorry that is again circumstantial evidence, based off a hunch on your part, there is no evidence it was about oil, where now your view is Bush would go against the same Oil companies he was planning to help them profit by. That makes no logical sense what so ever and shows how far fetched this mythical belief on oil is.
I am no fan of Bush, in fact I think he is clueless, but he sadly did think there was a connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda, which led to the invasion of Iraq, the WMD aspect was to help the people believe there was a real threat.
So oil had no reason let alone primary reason for the war, where again the fact you still keep missing it is other nations, more so China and Russia, their main competitors who have benefited, showing how absurd this claim is.
Obviously, a Saddam connected to al-Qaeda in any way creates a more definite exigency for military action by the U.S. and the coalition President Bush assembled. (No go-it-alone cowboy was Mr. “W,” also in contrast to the political caricature.) In the 9/11 aftermath, no U.S. administration could have responsibly neglected to connect the dots among Saddam, WMD, and al-Qaeda -- especially with no degrees of separation -- as most of the Democrats in Congress agreed at the time.
Another convenient fiction is that Bush and Cheney fabricated the WMD evidence, but the two were exonerated of that smear by the Robb-Silverman report, a Senate investigation, and the Butler report in the U.K. Perhaps some readers did not know that. Of course, if President Bush knew there were no WMD in Iraq, why would he have invaded using that pretext only to find inevitable evidence that he was lying? The Bush detractors have yet to answer that one.
So, if true that no Iraq WMD were found after the war, that means there weren’t any? Obviously, such a stretch violates the logical prohibition against proving a negative (and the Iraq Survey Group succumbed to that lapse, to a degree). Recall the Russian truck caravan from Iraq to Syria on the eve of the war in 2003. What was Saddam so eager to transfer out of his country? Where did Syria get its present WMD? Not assuming anything here, but what a coincidence!
Speaking of, not only Syria but even Libya had WMD. You also know that Iran, Israel, and Pakistan presently have WMD, not to mention Hizb’allah, and Iran will soon diversify into a new WMD product line. Can we believe that nearly every country in the region except Iraq had WMD of one kind or another, especially since Saddam’s Iraq had used WMD in the 1980s? Ultimately, Saddam acknowledged that he would soon have re-started his nuclear weapons program if we had not invaded, which establishes the Iraq war’s necessity.
The punchline on Iraq WMD: How much of it has actually turned up in postwar Iraq? Apart from a small amount of bioweapon material, there were those 500 canisters of chemical weapons found in 2006. You hadn’t heard? See Walter Pincus in the Washington Post (7/1/06), assiduously suppressed by the mainstream media because the news does not fit their propaganda narrative, and as if such a weaponry stash doesn’t count. (Maybe Bush planted it.) Degraded? Only partly; the chem cache had potential lethality in the mass casualty range.
Then there was Saddam’s stockpile of yellowcake uranium, also found long after the ’03 invasion. Yes, those 16 words in Bush’s notorious speech proved to be true. And if you did not already know any part of the preceding recital, you should be asking yourself why not? Everything reported here is verifiable, objective fact.
I am no fan of Bush, in fact I think he is clueless, but he sadly did think there was a connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda, which led to the invasion of Iraq, the WMD aspect was to help the people believe there was a real threat.
So oil had no reason let alone primary reason for the war, where again the fact you still keep missing it is other nations, more so China and Russia, their main competitors who have benefited, showing how absurd this claim is.
Obviously, a Saddam connected to al-Qaeda in any way creates a more definite exigency for military action by the U.S. and the coalition President Bush assembled. (No go-it-alone cowboy was Mr. “W,” also in contrast to the political caricature.) In the 9/11 aftermath, no U.S. administration could have responsibly neglected to connect the dots among Saddam, WMD, and al-Qaeda -- especially with no degrees of separation -- as most of the Democrats in Congress agreed at the time.
Another convenient fiction is that Bush and Cheney fabricated the WMD evidence, but the two were exonerated of that smear by the Robb-Silverman report, a Senate investigation, and the Butler report in the U.K. Perhaps some readers did not know that. Of course, if President Bush knew there were no WMD in Iraq, why would he have invaded using that pretext only to find inevitable evidence that he was lying? The Bush detractors have yet to answer that one.
So, if true that no Iraq WMD were found after the war, that means there weren’t any? Obviously, such a stretch violates the logical prohibition against proving a negative (and the Iraq Survey Group succumbed to that lapse, to a degree). Recall the Russian truck caravan from Iraq to Syria on the eve of the war in 2003. What was Saddam so eager to transfer out of his country? Where did Syria get its present WMD? Not assuming anything here, but what a coincidence!
Speaking of, not only Syria but even Libya had WMD. You also know that Iran, Israel, and Pakistan presently have WMD, not to mention Hizb’allah, and Iran will soon diversify into a new WMD product line. Can we believe that nearly every country in the region except Iraq had WMD of one kind or another, especially since Saddam’s Iraq had used WMD in the 1980s? Ultimately, Saddam acknowledged that he would soon have re-started his nuclear weapons program if we had not invaded, which establishes the Iraq war’s necessity.
The punchline on Iraq WMD: How much of it has actually turned up in postwar Iraq? Apart from a small amount of bioweapon material, there were those 500 canisters of chemical weapons found in 2006. You hadn’t heard? See Walter Pincus in the Washington Post (7/1/06), assiduously suppressed by the mainstream media because the news does not fit their propaganda narrative, and as if such a weaponry stash doesn’t count. (Maybe Bush planted it.) Degraded? Only partly; the chem cache had potential lethality in the mass casualty range.
Then there was Saddam’s stockpile of yellowcake uranium, also found long after the ’03 invasion. Yes, those 16 words in Bush’s notorious speech proved to be true. And if you did not already know any part of the preceding recital, you should be asking yourself why not? Everything reported here is verifiable, objective fact.
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Re: Terror Alert may be downgraded from “beheading” to “plastic swords”
by veya_victaous Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:44 pm
AMY GRAY wrote:How’s that meticulously well planned and in no way knee jerk anti terror bill going?
Super!
Hey, one thing, yeah, turns out that reading the quran out loud may constitute a crime under the new anti-terror laws.
Under laws prohibiting advocating terrorism, the Australian National Imams Council told the committee hearing that the rules on inciting terror or violence needed greater clarity because confusion could have “serious implications on free speech and will have a chilling effect on legitimate religious and political debate.” They have asked for exemption for “historical religious stories being used in sermons.”
“But hey, they shouldn’t talk about the bits of the quran that are violent!” is a question I’ve just pretended you asked. And it’s an interesting one because it’s based on interpretation.
One example used was that an imam could be found guilty “if he for example advocated the duty of a Muslim to defend his land… This provision is of particular concern to preachers who spend a large proportion of their time teaching and advocating on social justice issues,” the submission said.
Liberal senator David Fawcett dismissed the concerns saying that extremist groups use “a scriptural basis to advocate … that it is suitable to murder” and that “the fact that they have quoted from a book should not be defence.”
Guess who doesn’t have this worry?
Christians, for one. In Melbourne, regular “Pro-Life Mass” events at St Patrick's Cathedral are held where the bible is read to rail against abortion (that'd be the inciting part). Then the parishioners conduct a “rosary parade” down to East Melbourne to harass people entering into a clinic (which provides, among many services, abortion.) They have organised campaigns, try to physically and verbally intimidate patients, create disruptive noise to stop people from accessing health services….but it’s okay. They haven’t killed anyone.
Okay,http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/abortion-clinic-calls-for-protester-exclusion-zones-20101017-16p4l.html. But, let's focus on plastic swords.
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Re: Terror Alert may be downgraded from “beheading” to “plastic swords”
by Ben Reilly Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:54 pm
There's too much evidence to ignore, Didge. Leaked documents, testimony from public officials and other players -- it all points to the fact that Bush wanted to invade Iraq well before al Qaeda was a blip on his radar, and all the documentation points to people in his administration and associated with it who were primarily concerned about Iraq's oil.
Like I keep trying to explain, you simply can't logically cite the fact that other countries might have ended up benefitting more than the U.S. did from the privatization of the oil fields as some sort of proof that the Bush administration didn't invade to privatize them. (But hey, I'm also the guy who thinks attempted murder should be punished the same as murder -- why should you get less of a punishment simply because you're bad at murder?) You're conflating the outcome with the intent. If I intend to cross the street but instead get flattened by a bus, that obviously doesn't prove I didn't intend to cross the street.
9/11 was convenient for the Bush administration's designs on Iraq, to say the least. Maybe Bush really did believe there was a connection to al Qaeda as well -- though Bush said he believed a lot of things and then acted completely contrary to his professed beliefs. He said he didn't believe in nation-building while he ran for president, then tried to re-build two nations in his first term.
Whether he believed that, in the WMD idea or whatever isn't really germane to the question of whether Iraq was invaded to privatize its oil reserves. People can have more than one reason for doing something, obviously, and it's even more complicated when you're talking about organizations, in which different individuals can have different reasons for wanting to do the same thing (and aren't always upfront about them). Just take three soldiers fighting in the same war -- one might want the military to put him through college, another might be homicidal, and the third might have a sense of patriotism and duty, but there they are, fighting in the same war.
Like I keep trying to explain, you simply can't logically cite the fact that other countries might have ended up benefitting more than the U.S. did from the privatization of the oil fields as some sort of proof that the Bush administration didn't invade to privatize them. (But hey, I'm also the guy who thinks attempted murder should be punished the same as murder -- why should you get less of a punishment simply because you're bad at murder?) You're conflating the outcome with the intent. If I intend to cross the street but instead get flattened by a bus, that obviously doesn't prove I didn't intend to cross the street.
9/11 was convenient for the Bush administration's designs on Iraq, to say the least. Maybe Bush really did believe there was a connection to al Qaeda as well -- though Bush said he believed a lot of things and then acted completely contrary to his professed beliefs. He said he didn't believe in nation-building while he ran for president, then tried to re-build two nations in his first term.
Whether he believed that, in the WMD idea or whatever isn't really germane to the question of whether Iraq was invaded to privatize its oil reserves. People can have more than one reason for doing something, obviously, and it's even more complicated when you're talking about organizations, in which different individuals can have different reasons for wanting to do the same thing (and aren't always upfront about them). Just take three soldiers fighting in the same war -- one might want the military to put him through college, another might be homicidal, and the third might have a sense of patriotism and duty, but there they are, fighting in the same war.
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Re: Terror Alert may be downgraded from “beheading” to “plastic swords”
by veya_victaous Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:49 am
http://www.buzzfeed.com/simoncrerar/hijab-selfies#4a8vgew
United we stand against irrational hate
“Not only do Australian Muslim women appreciate it, everybody is incredibly grateful that this mere gesture of sharing photos has a much broader impact on the community.”
The page was inspired by Ruth, “a good samaritan who wanted to stand in solidarity with Australian Muslim women by posting a picture of herself wearing the hijab”.
United we stand against irrational hate
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Re: Terror Alert may be downgraded from “beheading” to “plastic swords”
by Guest Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:04 am
Ben_Reilly wrote:There's too much evidence to ignore, Didge. Leaked documents, testimony from public officials and other players -- it all points to the fact that Bush wanted to invade Iraq well before al Qaeda was a blip on his radar, and all the documentation points to people in his administration and associated with it who were primarily concerned about Iraq's oil.
Like I keep trying to explain, you simply can't logically cite the fact that other countries might have ended up benefitting more than the U.S. did from the privatization of the oil fields as some sort of proof that the Bush administration didn't invade to privatize them. (But hey, I'm also the guy who thinks attempted murder should be punished the same as murder -- why should you get less of a punishment simply because you're bad at murder?) You're conflating the outcome with the intent. If I intend to cross the street but instead get flattened by a bus, that obviously doesn't prove I didn't intend to cross the street.
9/11 was convenient for the Bush administration's designs on Iraq, to say the least. Maybe Bush really did believe there was a connection to al Qaeda as well -- though Bush said he believed a lot of things and then acted completely contrary to his professed beliefs. He said he didn't believe in nation-building while he ran for president, then tried to re-build two nations in his first term.
Whether he believed that, in the WMD idea or whatever isn't really germane to the question of whether Iraq was invaded to privatize its oil reserves. People can have more than one reason for doing something, obviously, and it's even more complicated when you're talking about organizations, in which different individuals can have different reasons for wanting to do the same thing (and aren't always upfront about them). Just take three soldiers fighting in the same war -- one might want the military to put him through college, another might be homicidal, and the third might have a sense of patriotism and duty, but there they are, fighting in the same war.
Again circumstantial evidence,it tis absurd you keep trying to argue something that has no evidence.
The fact is your argument has generally changed based around factual evidence pointing to the fact America did not go to war because of oil, and a myth has grown so badly, as it does by those against Obama, with absurd claims,
Basically you are saying the US, went to war, not for any benefit of oil for itself but for others, and those others happen to be their biggest rivals, showing how absurd the view is when you break it down to show how silly that view is.
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Re: Terror Alert may be downgraded from “beheading” to “plastic swords”
by Ben Reilly Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:06 am
Didge, please stop twisting my words! Otherwise, I'm going to let my previous statements speak for themselves, because we've hijacked Veya's thread.
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Re: Terror Alert may be downgraded from “beheading” to “plastic swords”
by Guest Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:10 am
Ben_Reilly wrote:Didge, please stop twisting my words! Otherwise, I'm going to let my previous statements speak for themselves, because we've hijacked Veya's thread.
So now you offer threats to me, wow.
So unless I agree to your views then? Sorry I do not agree and view them as completely absurd based on no evidence as seen, and showing them for how far fetched they are.
So I am not twisting anything and I am correctly showing why such a view of a claim to oil being the cause is completely ridiculous.
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Re: Terror Alert may be downgraded from “beheading” to “plastic swords”
by Ben Reilly Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:13 am
Excuse me, how have I threatened you? 
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Re: Terror Alert may be downgraded from “beheading” to “plastic swords”
by Guest Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:17 am
Ben_Reilly wrote:Didge, please stop twisting my words! Otherwise, I'm going to let my previous statements speak for themselves, because we've hijacked Veya's thread.
Threat, you are saying I have to do something otherwise you will do something, that is a threat of an action on your part.
Do as you please, the moment you came in about being civil, showed how ridiculous you were being.
Second, throughout your arguments have been circumstantial and paved a view as if your view was factual , when as seen it has nothing but the illusions of the left behind it..
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Re: Terror Alert may be downgraded from “beheading” to “plastic swords”
by veya_victaous Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:58 am
Ben_Reilly wrote:Excuse me, how have I threatened you?
didge feels threatened easily
well, it explains his views on freedom and terrorists
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Re: Terror Alert may be downgraded from “beheading” to “plastic swords”
by Ben Reilly Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:24 am
Didge wrote:Ben_Reilly wrote:Didge, please stop twisting my words! Otherwise, I'm going to let my previous statements speak for themselves, because we've hijacked Veya's thread.
Threat, you are saying I have to do something otherwise you will do something, that is a threat of an action on your part.
Do as you please, the moment you came in about being civil, showed how ridiculous you were being.
Second, throughout your arguments have been circumstantial and paved a view as if your view was factual , when as seen it has nothing but the illusions of the left behind it..
Yeah, Didge -- if you don't stop twisting my words,
. Boy, that'll sure show you!I'm going to let my previous statements speak for themselves
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Re: Terror Alert may be downgraded from “beheading” to “plastic swords”
by Guest Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:24 am
Ben_Reilly wrote:Didge wrote:
Threat, you are saying I have to do something otherwise you will do something, that is a threat of an action on your part.
Do as you please, the moment you came in about being civil, showed how ridiculous you were being.
Second, throughout your arguments have been circumstantial and paved a view as if your view was factual , when as seen it has nothing but the illusions of the left behind it..
Yeah, Didge -- if you don't stop twisting my words,. Boy, that'll sure show you!I'm going to let my previous statements speak for themselves
I never did twist your words, you just tried poorly to alter your view point throughout, after I showed you had no case or evidence for your claim.
Oh well, never mind eh Ben.
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Re: Terror Alert may be downgraded from “beheading” to “plastic swords”
by Ben Reilly Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:38 am
No, you did. You said that I claimed the Iraq War was to benefit the U.S. and proceeded to demonstrate to me how the U.S. has not benefited quite as much as a few other nations from the privatization of Iraqi oil fields.
Which I never said. I'll quote myself one more time:
I said the West, as in collectively, and for that matter, I wasn't just talking about the Iraq war, though it's certainly part of it. Really, you'd have to be thick not to realize that the West's involvement in any and all Middle Eastern affairs historically was quite minimal compared to how it's been since the Middle East emerged as a leading producer of oil after WWII.
Which I never said. I'll quote myself one more time:
The tragic misunderstanding is that we in the West don't, for the most part, really butcher their people because of their religion, but because they happen to be standing on top of the oil reserves we want.
I said the West, as in collectively, and for that matter, I wasn't just talking about the Iraq war, though it's certainly part of it. Really, you'd have to be thick not to realize that the West's involvement in any and all Middle Eastern affairs historically was quite minimal compared to how it's been since the Middle East emerged as a leading producer of oil after WWII.
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Re: Terror Alert may be downgraded from “beheading” to “plastic swords”
by Guest Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:46 am
Ben_Reilly wrote:No, you did. You said that I claimed the Iraq War was to benefit the U.S. and proceeded to demonstrate to me how the U.S. has not benefited quite as much as a few other nations from the privatization of Iraqi oil fields.
Which I never said. I'll quote myself one more time:The tragic misunderstanding is that we in the West don't, for the most part, really butcher their people because of their religion, but because they happen to be standing on top of the oil reserves we want.
I said the West, as in collectively, and for that matter, I wasn't just talking about the Iraq war, though it's certainly part of it. Really, you'd have to be thick not to realize that the West's involvement in any and all Middle Eastern affairs historically was quite minimal compared to how it's been since the Middle East emerged as a leading producer of oil after WWII.
Contradiction alert.
If the war was about Oil, thus started by the US, then it stands to reason that starting a conflict over oil, is for its control and use, of which as seen was never the case, in fact oil from Ira has decreased and America never won any of the contracts, of which its main rivals did. If as you claim it was over oil, then you would have the evidence to support this, which as seen you do not. You then changed your view that America started this to have the West control the oil, which again would be absurd, being as China and Russia benefited, they being the main beneficiaries.
Wow so you now call me thick, how pleasant.
To equate the west as one entity is also absurd, when each country had their own ambitions, where again you seem to have a view point that a country liberated from a tyrant who committed genocide, where again the people of Iraq had the chance for peace and instead choose sectarian violence is now the fault of the west. That is again absurd, as if the west wants to remove a dictator murdering people it only benefits them for one aspect, economics, where trade is stable around the world.
I refer you back to my earlier questions which you failed to even address.
How many countries that have been liberated have then gone on to commit terrorism against its own people through suicide and terrorist attacks with countless sectarian violence?
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Re: Terror Alert may be downgraded from “beheading” to “plastic swords”
by Ben Reilly Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:50 am
Didge. I said that one would have to be thick not to see how the West has become increasingly meddlesome in Middle Eastern affairs since the Middle East became a big oil region.
I've backed up everything else I said with sources; it's all there and at this point I really have nothing to add, except that I didn't threaten you!!!
So, as I tried to do before, I'm withdrawing from this debate, having said my piece.
Peace!
I've backed up everything else I said with sources; it's all there and at this point I really have nothing to add, except that I didn't threaten you!!!
So, as I tried to do before, I'm withdrawing from this debate, having said my piece.
Peace!
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Re: Terror Alert may be downgraded from “beheading” to “plastic swords”
by Guest Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:54 am
Ben_Reilly wrote:Didge. I said that one would have to be thick not to see how the West has become increasingly meddlesome in Middle Eastern affairs since the Middle East became a big oil region.
I've backed up everything else I said with sources; it's all there and at this point I really have nothing to add, except that I didn't threaten you!!!
So, as I tried to do before, I'm withdrawing from this debate, having said my piece.
Peace!
Ben lets be honest you were implying someone who did not view a certain view point would be thick.
Fine by me, I think you exhausted the hearsay you presented to the debate anyway.
Peace onto you, no idea why you went off about being civil yesterday, being as you have passionate views on this which it seems incites you to be annoyed over if someone disagrees with you , that you stated this to a veiw of containing yourself I guess. Remember your view on this forum is for people to be able to express their views.
Hope you have a loveley evening
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Re: Terror Alert may be downgraded from “beheading” to “plastic swords”
by veya_victaous Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:07 am
Remember those super fun terror raids where 800 police were sent out with personally coordinated TV news crews and found a decorative sword and little else? Fifteen men were detained in the raids but only one was charged with a terrorism offence so it was really effective.
But hey, how often do the police get to live out their fantasy of pretending they were in a Rage Against the Machine music video, but, you know, as the bad guys? Not often enough, amirite?
It was also a first for the police as it was the first time they were able to put 3 men under Preventative Detention Orders (PDOs) which restrict all sorts of rights. Like knowing you’re actually under a PDO. Or being held for two weeks without charge and never finding out why.
Or even - and this is a fun one - having your private conversations with a lawyer monitored by police. And they don’t have to tell you!
PDOs were set to expire in 2016 but that date has been extended under the Foreign Fighters bill.
PS - the one man who was charged with a terrorism offence? His lawyer has told the court there has been a “glaring error” in translating an intercepted phone call.
http://www.thevine.com.au/life/news/10-things-one-cut-at-a-time-20141125-290679/?page=1&utm_source=thevine&utm_medium=pager&utm_campaign=internal-testing
But hey, how often do the police get to live out their fantasy of pretending they were in a Rage Against the Machine music video, but, you know, as the bad guys? Not often enough, amirite?
It was also a first for the police as it was the first time they were able to put 3 men under Preventative Detention Orders (PDOs) which restrict all sorts of rights. Like knowing you’re actually under a PDO. Or being held for two weeks without charge and never finding out why.
Or even - and this is a fun one - having your private conversations with a lawyer monitored by police. And they don’t have to tell you!
PDOs were set to expire in 2016 but that date has been extended under the Foreign Fighters bill.
PS - the one man who was charged with a terrorism offence? His lawyer has told the court there has been a “glaring error” in translating an intercepted phone call.
http://www.thevine.com.au/life/news/10-things-one-cut-at-a-time-20141125-290679/?page=1&utm_source=thevine&utm_medium=pager&utm_campaign=internal-testing
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» PHEW.
» And here's some more enrichment...
» John F Kennedy Assassination
» Where is everyone lately...?
» London violence over the weekend...
» Why should anyone believe anything that Mo Farah says...!?
» Liverpool Labour defends mayor role poll after turnout was only 3% and they say they will push ahead with the option that was least preferred!!!
» Labour leader Keir Stammer can't answer the simple question of whether a woman has a penis or not...
» More evidence of remoaners still trying to overturn Brexit... and this is a conservative MP who should be drummed out of the party and out of parliament!
» R Kelly 30 years, Ghislaine Maxwell 20 years... but here in UK...