Five ways to visualize the human toll

Yet another open call for genocide of the Jews, airing on Hamas’s TV channel. Where is the international media? Too busy repeating Hamas propaganda to take any notice.

Sassy wrote:You are such an ignorant bastard, you don't even listen to American channels obviously.   Wildcatters?   That would be the Israeli Minister of Housing then.  

Jerusalem (CNN) -- As Israel's top housing official announced Sunday the details of plans to build new settlements on disputed territory, critics warned that the construction could derail upcoming Israeli-Palestinian peace talks.

Opposition Israeli politicians sharply criticized the announcement, which comes days before Israeli and Palestinian negotiators are set to resume long-stalled direct talks on Wednesday.

"(Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin) Netanyahu has to decide which government he is heading, a government that is trying to reach a peace agreement or a government that is trying to undermine all possibilities of this agreement," said Shelly Yachimovich, head of the Labor Party and the Israeli opposition.

New Israel settlement plan casts shadow on talks

She described the plans for fresh construction as a "'finger in the eye' of the United States, Europe, the Palestinians and the majority of the Israeli people that are seeking peace."

Finance Minister Yair Lapid said the settlements "are not conducive" to the peace-talk process and described the move to build more units as a mistake.

But Housing Minister Uri Ariel stood by his announcement and said the government was asking for bids from construction contractors to build more than 1,000 new settlement units.

"The Israeli government is lowering the cost of living in all parts of Israel," he said. "No country in the world will accept dictates from other countries where it is allowed to build and where not to."

Israel will continue to market homes and build all over the country, he said.

"This is the right thing to do," he said, "both in Zionist and economic terms."

Palestinian leaders criticize decision

But the news that Israeli authorities have given preliminary approval for new settlements in the West Bank and Jerusalem -- considered illegal under international law -- has angered senior Palestinian figures and prompted condemnation from Israel's Western allies.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/11/world/meast/mideast-palestinians-israelis/

PJ Media has put together an extraordinarily powerful and informative resource here. No one who goes through this material with an open mind will be able to support the “Palestinians.”

A small excerpt with background:

Although in 2005 Israel gave up Gaza to the Palestinians in a naive “land for peace” unilateral withdrawal, the result was not peace but rather over 10,000 rockets fired from Gaza at Israeli civilian communities. Here we show how Hamas and other groups weaponize Palestinian civilians and institutions to attack Israel.

Background:

The Hamas Charter of 1988 – Defines the Hamas Mission Against Israel and Jews

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it.
Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah’s victory is realized.
The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

“The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

Read it all, and get your friends and coworkers who support the “Palestinians” to read it.

Western reporters know this, but don’t give it much attention. Why not? Why, that might offend Hamas, as it would reinforce Israeli claims that they’re deliberately trying to provoke civilian casualties. And we can’t have that, now, can we? “Top Secret Hamas Command Bunker in Gaza Revealed,” Tablet, July 29, 2014:

The idea that one of Hamas’ main command bunkers is located beneath Shifa Hospital in Gaza City is one of the worst-kept secrets of the Gaza war. So why aren’t reporters in Gaza ferreting it out? The precise location of a large underground bunker equipped with sophisticated communications equipment and housing some part of the leadership of a major terrorist organization beneath a major hospital would seem to qualify as a world-class scoop—the kind that might merit a Pulitzer, or at least a Polk.

So why isn’t the fact that Hamas uses Shifa Hospital as a command post making headlines? In part, it’s because the location is so un-secret that Hamas regularly meets with reporters there. On July 15, for example, William Booth of the Washington Post wrote that the hospital “has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices.” Back in 2006, PBS even aired a documentary showing how gunmen roam the halls of the hospital, intimidate the staff, and deny them access to protected locations within the building—where the camera crew was obviously prohibited from filming. Yet the confirmation that Hamas is using Gaza City’s biggest hospital as its de facto headquarters was made in the last sentence of the eighth paragraph of Booth’s story—which would appear to be the kind of rookie mistake that is known in journalistic parlance as “burying the lede.”

Sassy wrote:You are such an ignorant bastard…

saw sheer ignorance staring me

Ignorance and denial, stock in trade.

Sassy wrote:Popped in for a minute and saw sheer ignorance staring me in the face.  

Original Quill wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:Sorry Quill I forgot the statements of a few were and Acceptable way to judge an entire nation and ethnicity           

You don't build in Buffer zones and then Complain about you civilians getting attacked... IF there was even the Slightest Truth to the buffer zones logic NONE of the settlements that have derailed EVERY peace talk so far would exist.. that is Propaganda Quill not reality...  Reality is ISRAEL has not set-up Buffer zones it has Taken And Illegally Settled on another nations land.. Other wise Where are the buffer zones and why do they move further and further into Palestine every year and why are Israeli Civilians Building on the land that Was Palestine and is Supposed to be a Buffer Zone?

The official justification is that they are buffer zones.  The settlements have come from wildcatters, who take matters in their own hands.  These wildcatters are assuming the risk for their actions.  Israel has tried, and been unsuccessful in clearing these lands.  Nevertheless, they are buffer zones.

veya_victaous wrote:The statement About Nazi is Because the You are Suggesting we should not have Sympathy for Palestinians because Hamas does bad things.. BUT we Should be Sympathetic and accepting of Israel's Crimes against humanity because they have suffered crimes against humanity before?
You cant have it both ways  EITHER Condemn Crimes against Humanity UNIVERSALLY or STFU about Jews nilly been wipe out before...  Because IF that is Justification for the IDF committing war crimes then ALL HAMAS Crimes Are Justified by the EXACT same logic. Because Palestine is almost Non-existent NOW.

I specifically disavowed the idea that Israel is seeking your sympathy.  Israel’s actions are directly the result of aggressions by Hamas:

Quill wrote:The war is the result of Hamas' determination to light off missiles into Israel...over 1,300 to date.  In response, Israel is good at combat, to be sure...but that shouldn't be held against them in the face of clear provocation.  It is expected...there is no basis for outrage in a wartime situation.  Sadness, yes...but outrage, no.

I have emphasized that the Israelis neither want, nor seek any sympathy from the outside world, due to the Nazis or otherwise.  This part of Israeli ideology is completely misunderstood, as I detailed in a discussion between Les and I on another thread:

Quill wrote:I do think you misunderstand the message, Les.  No one expects commiseration, or even forbearance for the Jews coming out of the Nazi experience.   The message isn't, That was a rough one! or Weep for us! They are not stockpiling pity.  The message is, Never again!

In other words, so far from looking back, they are looking at how they will face the next battle.  So they are not asking for pity for the past, but they are telling themselves, never again...the next time we will be ready.  And so they are.

Let's not get mixed up on needless debates based upon misreading the script.  This is a straight out, one-on-one fight.  It is Hamas that is looking for pity...disingenuously.

The next post on the thread specifically referenced my passage above.  That post was yours, and yet here you are repeating the same argument.  You need to move on, once an idea of yours has been refuted.  Only Republicans and Tories keep repeating themselves in the face of refutation, and that is because the are not reasoning but propagandizing.

veya_victaous wrote:There is NO ACCEPTABLE JUSTIFICATION FOR THE ACTIONS OF THE IDF.

I'm sorry veya, but war is war.  When Hamas/Gaza decided to start this war, it was necessary for the Israelis to respond in kind.  And so they have.

It is myopic of you to blame the Israelis and not see the ultimate fault rests with Hamas/Gaza.

veya_victaous wrote:
make sure you have captions on for the translations

"There's no school tomorrow because there is no children left in Gaza" is probably the most disgusting

Irn Bru wrote:To bat away the first point by saying that the settlements have come from wildcatters, who take matters in their own hands and that Israel has tried to clear them out is just ridiculous and totally at odds with what is really going on.
The settlements and the continuation of building them is probably one of the biggest obstacles in getting people round the table to try and find a peaceful solution and it's more than likely that it is going to stay that way. It's cost thousands of lives in this disgusting war and to try and say that Israel have been powerless in putting a stop to 'wildcatters' doing it is no more than what I would expect from an apologist defending them for doing it.

Original Quill wrote:Well, Israel is at war, veya--not of its own making.  They have been since 1948, and as I've mentioned, this latest round of missile lobbing by Hamas/Gaza is just another iteration.

Israel didn't start the war, but she is doing a damn fine job in responding, don't you agree?  Your boys are losing, but that doesn't make them right.  Nor Israel wrong.

veya_victaous wrote:

Original Quill wrote:Well, Israel is at war, veya--not of its own making.  They have been since 1948, and as I've mentioned, this latest round of missile lobbing by Hamas/Gaza is just another iteration.

Israel didn't start the war, but she is doing a damn fine job in responding, don't you agree?  Your boys are losing, but that doesn't make them right.  Nor Israel wrong.

Evidence suggests Israel Did Start and has been purposely prolonging the war.

Hamas is tossing pebbles Israel is throwing Boulders
Not Comparable or reasonable.  
No Different than Mexico Firing Large warhead Missile into the USA because of the Red necks that Fire over the boarder at the 'illegal' immigrants   would that be appropriate?

And YES it does seem that Israel is a War with the CIVILIANS of Palestine which is Against international law EXACTLY like it was when the Nazis did it to another group of Civilians.

With its takeover of Gaza after the 1967 war with Egypt, Israel hunted down secular Palestinian Liberation Organization factions but dropped the previous Egyptian rulers' harsh restrictions against Islamic activists.[3] In fact, Israel for many years tolerated and at times encouraged Islamic activists and groups as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the PLO and its dominant faction, Fatah

In 1987, several Palestinians were killed in a traffic accident involving an Israeli driver, and the events that followed—a Palestinian uprising (now known as the First Intifada) against Israel's West Bank and Gaza occupation—led Yassin and six other Palestinians to found Hamas as an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood movement. The new group was supported by Brotherhood-affiliated charities and social institutions that had already gained a strong foothold in the occupied territories. The acronym "Hamas" first appeared in 1987 in a leaflet that accused the Israeli intelligence services of undermining the moral fiber of Palestinian youth as part of Mossad's recruitment of what Hamas termed collaborators. Nonetheless, Israeli military and intelligence was still focused on Fatah, and continued to maintain contacts with Gaza's Islamic activists. Numerous Islamist leaders, including senior Hamas founder Mahmoud Zahar, met with Yitzhak Rabin as part of "regular consultations" between Israeli officials and Palestinians not linked to the PLO

1: The US sold ammo to Israel last week
2: The US criticises shelling of UN School

The US sold mortars and grenade launcher ammunition to Israel in the last week, from a $1B stockpile of ammo called the War Reserve Stockpile Ammunition-Israel (WRSA-I) that it keeps there, purely for the purpose of providing Israel with ammo during emergencies—all it takes is a sign-off from the president.

It’s reassuring to know, however, that the US cares where its sponsored munitions end up. The White House called the shelling of a UN school in Gaza, "totally unacceptable and totally indefensible." It stopped short of directly stating Israel was responsible, acknowledging that, "it does not appear there's a lot of doubt about whose artillery was involved," having cited the UN’s statements blaming Israel. Well done everyone.

The First Intifada or First Palestinian Intifada (also known as simply as "the intifada" or "intifadah"[note A]) was a Palestinian uprising against the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian Territories,[6] which lasted from December 1987 until the Madrid Conference in 1991, though some date its conclusion to 1993, with the signing of the Oslo Accords.[7] The uprising began on December 9,[8] in the Jabalia refugee camp after a series of escalating actions and deaths of Palestinian and Israeli citizens, and tensions reached a boiling point when an IDF truck struck a civilian car, killing four Palestinians.[9] Rumors that the crash was deliberate quickly spread throughout Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem.[10] In response to general strikes, boycotts of Israeli civil administration institutions in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, civil disobedience in the face of army orders, and an economic boycott consisting of refusal to work in Israeli settlements on Israeli products, refusal to pay taxes, refusal to drive Palestinian cars with Israeli licenses, graffiti, barricading,[11][12] and widespread throwing of stones and Molotov cocktails at the IDF and its infrastructure within the Palestinian territories. Israel, deploying some 80,000 soldiers and initially used live fire, killing a large numbers of Palestinians. In the first 13 months, 332 Palestinians and 12 Israelis were killed.[13] Given the high proportion of children, youths and civilians killed, it then adopted a policy of 'might, power, and beatings,' namely "breaking Palestinians' bones" and using live ammunition against civilians.[13][14] The global diffusion of images of soldiers beating adolescents with clubs then led to the adoption of firing semi-lethal plastic bullets.[13] In the intifada's first year, Israeli security forces killed 311 Palestinians, of which 53 were under the age of 17.[13] Over the first two years, according to Save the Children, an estimated 7% of all Palestinians under 18 years of age suffered injuries from shootings, beatings, or tear gas.[14] Over six years the Israeli Defense Forces killed an estimated 1,162-1,204 [7] Palestinians while Palestinians killed 100 Israeli civilians and 60 IDF personnel

In 1989, local committees in Beit Sahour initiated a nonviolence movement to withhold taxes,[63] taking up the slogan "No Taxation Without Representation".[64] Israeli defense minister Yitzhak Rabin's response was: "We will teach them there is a price for refusing the laws of Israel."[65] When time in prison did not stop the activists, Israel crushed the boycott by imposing heavy fines and seizing and disposing of equipment, furnishings, and goods from local stores, factories and homes

Original Quill wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:To bat away the first point by saying that the settlements have come from wildcatters, who take matters in their own hands and that Israel has tried to clear them out is just ridiculous and totally at odds with what is really going on.
The settlements and the continuation of building them is probably one of the biggest obstacles in getting people round the table to try and find a peaceful solution and it's more than likely that it is going to stay that way. It's cost thousands of lives in this disgusting war and to try and say that Israel have been powerless in putting a stop to 'wildcatters' doing it is no more than what I would expect from an apologist defending them for doing it.

One wishes that a nation might come up with a clear, and lasting public policy.  Unfortunately, politicians change, political parties change, and here comes a new policy.  The original idea, however, is that these were buffer zones.

We had this same thing going on in the vast prairies of So. Arizona, where the Rincon/Southeast Subregional Area Plan was supposed to control when, where and how much growth was permitted.  Unfortunately, wildcatters--as they were called--hence the name--came along and just built where they liked.  Originally criminals, the next Board of Supervisors came along and ratified what they had done.  Go figure.

Unfortunately, that's democracy.  Hard to develop a foreign policy that way.

Original Quill wrote:Well, either someone is building these settlements or no one is.  What branch of the government is building the settlements?  In the absence of names, perhaps they are the myth.  I'm at a loss to explain if my speculation about grassroots origins is not acceptable.

I am very flattered...but I am quite sure the Israeli government doesn't give a wit about my support.  Nor do they need it.  They are doing quite well on their own...not to mention, with the help of Hamas.

Irn Bru wrote:

Original Quill wrote:Well, either someone is building these settlements or no one is.  What branch of the government is building the settlements?  In the absence of names, perhaps they are the myth.  I'm at a loss to explain if my speculation about grassroots origins is not acceptable.

I am very flattered...but I am quite sure the Israeli government doesn't give a wit about my support.  Nor do they need it.  They are doing quite well on their own...not to mention, with the help of Hamas.

As things stand the Israeli government needs all the help it can get with its policies in continuing to expand and build even more settlements in the West Bank and you are certainly doing your bit by denying it is their policy and putting it down to just a bunch of wildcatters.

However small your contribution is I'm sure they appreciate it.

Original Quill wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

As things stand the Israeli government needs all the help it can get with its policies in continuing to expand and build even more settlements in the West Bank and you are certainly doing your bit by denying it is their policy and putting it down to just a bunch of wildcatters.

However small your contribution is I'm sure they appreciate it.

I just don't see the evidence, Irn.  Simple as that.