Why Jews oppose Israel's occupation of Palestine and attack on Gaza

Tapping into a profound collective memory of discrimination and dispossession, Jews should feel no solidarity with Israel's occupation. Our solidarity is firmly with the Palestinian people.



AS ISRAEL showers a condensed civilian population with bombs, the world shows its disgust. When thousands march in London this Saturday among them will be supporters of Jews for Justice for Palestinians, Jews for Boycotting Israeli Goods, the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network and others.

We will be proud to march alongside people from all backgrounds as partners in the long struggle to free Palestine.

The actions of the Israeli state are symptomatic of a sense of unassailable fear; in the view of Netanyahu and his supporters the lesson of the Holocaust is that Jews are destined to a fate as eternal outsiders and must close ranks to look after their own.

Thus Israel's far-reaching operation to recover the three recently kidnapped teenagers was codenamed 'Operation Brother's Keeper' while the murder of at least five young Palestinian civilians by the Israeli army in the first days of that operation barely caused a flutter of concern in Israel. For Zionism, as for all nationalism, Jewish life exists above Arab life in a hierarchy of priorities.

There is, however, a long and proud alternative Jewish history, which opens up a space for a different reading of the Holocaust. From Jewish participation in trade union and socialist movements in Europe in the nineteenth century to the prominent Jewish role in the anti-Apartheid struggle in South Africa a century later, this is a politics of solidarity rather than national particularism. It generalises from the Jewish experience of suffering to oppose injustice everywhere. It sees in pogroms and Nazism the horrors implicit in distinguishing between people on the basis of their ethnic origin, and refuses ever to play that game.

This is the politics that leads Jews like myself to oppose Israeli state violence. Some of us are firm anti-Zionists. Others long considered themselves supporters of Israel but cannot abide the barbarism of its latest killing spasm. All of us refuse the Israeli framing that sees a conflict between Jews and Arabs.

That framing can only give rise to anti-Semitism. Instead, we insist that this is a battle between an occupying army and an occupied people seeking to live in freedom, and the religion of each side is totally irrelevant to the conclusions we should draw. Tapping into a profound collective memory of discrimination and dispossession, we can feel no solidarity with Israel's occupation. Our solidarity is firmly with the Palestinian people.

http://stopwar.org.uk/news/why-jews-oppose-israel-s-occupation-of-palestine-and-attack-on-gaza#.U84B5UBvrhc

Psalm 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.

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Good job lots of Jews don't.

Sassy wrote:Good job lots of Jews don't.

they do stand with Israel you silly sod , they just don't agree with the fighting.


The way you feel now is exactly how i feel when muslimss kill and maim innocent people .

Now i stand with Israel i have Jewish blood , i don't want people being killed whether the are Jew Christian Muslim or whatever faith , life is precious .

But Israel are protecting what is theirs and they always will .

Which Jews will that be Sassy?

The Jews who don't live within 1000 miles of Israel, right?

I think a lot of people are fed up with plebs who live in blissful ignorance of their plight sticking their noses in!

BigAndy9 wrote:Which Jews will that be Sassy?

The Jews who don't live within 1000 miles of Israel, right?

I think a lot of people are fed up with plebs who live in blissful ignorance of their plight sticking their noses in!

correct

B'Tselem, Jews in Israel fighting for human rights in Palestine.

BigAndy9 wrote:Which Jews will that be Sassy?

The Jews who don't live within 1000 miles of Israel, right?

I think a lot of people are fed up with plebs who live in blissful ignorance of their plight sticking their noses in!

I don't get I involved with a lot of this debate on Israel and Palestine but I agree with you here.

For the record, if I had to swing it one way (as both sides are at fault and also right) I'd say Israel are in the wrong and let's face it, the real,orthodox Jews believe that they are the superior race anyway.

eddie wrote:

BigAndy9 wrote:Which Jews will that be Sassy?

The Jews who don't live within 1000 miles of Israel, right?

I think a lot of people are fed up with plebs who live in blissful ignorance of their plight sticking their noses in!

I don't get I involved with a lot of this debate on Israel and Palestine but I agree with you here.

For the record, if I had to swing it one way (as both sides are at fault and also right) I'd say Israel are in the wrong and let's face it, the real,orthodox Jews believe that they are the superior race anyway.

I also couldn't give a stuff and don't usually get involved - all i want to point out is how easy it is for people thousands of miles away to be armchair pundits.

You seem confused eddie - how do you know that's what they believe, and what has their religion got to do with their race?

biblical teachings are that Jews are God's chosen people ,they are not the superior race but they are God's chosen .

B'Tselem, Jews in Israel fighting for human rights in Palestine.

Peace Now, Jews in Israel fighting for human rights in Palestine

Breaking the Silence, ex Israeli Military saying what really happens in the Occupied territories

Just some.

all wars and loss of life are tragic .

eddie wrote:

BigAndy9 wrote:Which Jews will that be Sassy?

The Jews who don't live within 1000 miles of Israel, right?

I think a lot of people are fed up with plebs who live in blissful ignorance of their plight sticking their noses in!

I don't get I involved with a lot of this debate on Israel and Palestine but I agree with you here.

For the record, if I had to swing it one way (as both sides are at fault and also right) I'd say Israel are in the wrong and let's face it, the real,orthodox Jews believe that they are the superior race anyway.

I disagree, eds.  Last point first: we all think we are the superior race.  I remember learning in school that the US had never lost a war, and that was because we are always in the right. End of...

You can't be serious that Israel is wrong on this iteration of the war.  If you think the Hamas/Gazans are right in lobbing missiles across the border to Israel, then surely you think that Germany was right in lobbing V2s across the Channel and onto London in 1940.  It's the same thing.

So, let's move on to the bigger issue: Is Israel in the wrong for existing?  When you get right down to it, that's the real argument.  All these arguments about so-called atrocities, and who is entitled to which acre, are all over tactics.  Let's argue a prioris...Is Israel in the wrong for existing?

Original Quill wrote:

eddie wrote:

BigAndy9 wrote:Which Jews will that be Sassy?

The Jews who don't live within 1000 miles of Israel, right?

I think a lot of people are fed up with plebs who live in blissful ignorance of their plight sticking their noses in!

I don't get I involved with a lot of this debate on Israel and Palestine but I agree with you here.

For the record, if I had to swing it one way (as both sides are at fault and also right) I'd say Israel are in the wrong and let's face it, the real,orthodox Jews believe that they are the superior race anyway.

I disagree, eds.  Last point first: we all think we are the superior race.  I remember learning in school that the US had never lost a war, and that was because we are always in the right.  End of...

You can't be serious that Israel is wrong on this iteration of the war.  If you think the Hamas/Gazans are right in lobbing missiles across the border to Israel, then surely you think that Germany was right in lobbing V2s across the Channel and onto London in 1940.  It's the same thing.

So, let's move on to the bigger issue: Is Israel in the wrong for existing?  When you get right down to it, that's the real argument.  All these arguments about so-called atrocities, and who is entitled to which acre, are all over tactics.  Let's argue a prioris...Is Israel in the wrong for existing?

No we Don't, we mock Americans for that belief all the time...  
SOME nations accept their vassal status and know we will do bad things if required by our stronger allies.  
also we were founded by convicts literally people escaping the gallows... and we love our convict heritage we know we not some special race we're not even really a race since we come in so many colours   

Our Big military celebration (Gallipoli) is actually of a Defeat   
https://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/gallipoli/

eddie wrote:

BigAndy9 wrote:Which Jews will that be Sassy?

The Jews who don't live within 1000 miles of Israel, right?

I think a lot of people are fed up with plebs who live in blissful ignorance of their plight sticking their noses in!

I don't get I involved with a lot of this debate on Israel and Palestine but I agree with you here.

For the record, if I had to swing it one way (as both sides are at fault and also right) I'd say Israel are in the wrong and let's face it, the real,orthodox Jews believe that they are the superior race anyway.

I have never got involved in any of these debates, because quite frankly I don't understand what its all about.

Ok I've read the newspaper reports, listened to the news but I think there is history behind all this and that won't tell me the background to it.

I don't believe the press anymore anyway, it seems propaganda will win this war, or at least the sympathies of the world, which is unfair, so if anyone can explain to me in simple (unbiased) terms what its all about I would be really grateful.

@Harves
both groups have been promised and given the same bit of land as part of WW1 peace treaties and division of spoils from the fall of the Ottoman empire

back in the Roman era it was Israel so Jews wont to live there again but for the 1700 odd years in between it has Palestine (plus they also lived there with the Jews in Roman times) and they are not keen on getting kicked out.

Then you add the religious difference that has developed over the centuries and you now have 2 quite similar but theological opposed groups of people fighting of the same same corridor of land that happens to contain a lot of the holy sites for all 3 Abrahamic religions.. meaning there is also external factors in play as Muslims Jews and Christians all want access to the same areas and holy sites.

Thanks Veya. Right so, Israel has Jews living there, Palastine has Muslims there, where do the Christians come into it?

And Hamas (is that right?) is a Muslim terrorist organisation who have for years been firing rockets (albeit with no specific targets or casualties) into Israel? Then Israel (Jews) retaliated and from then on its been military action, then a ceasefire? You will have to excuse me if I have all this wrong, I genuinely have no idea, I have never followed it. I got that from Wiki.

And who are fatah?

Bethlehem and other places are in the region
Plus there are a number of Christians in Gaza but it more a Pilgrimage thing Birth place of Jesus and all that   

Fatah are/were Yasser Arafat's(from the 80's/90's) group they are more or less dissolved now into various faction ONE of those factions is Hamas

there has been on going attack/incursion by both sides for about 50 years periodically interrupted by externally negotiated cease fires. BOTH sides have always been quick to use any excuse to end the ceasefire.

Hamas classification as terrorists is debatable they are not good but they are not the same as Al qaeda. there are very much linked to the defence of Palestine and Resisting Israel... they do have some support amongst Palestinians.. they are hard to classify honestly because they are part terrorist, part political party, part resistance group, part religious fundamentalists ::dunno:: 

veya_victaous wrote:Bethlehem and other places are in the region
Plus there are a number of Christians in Gaza but it more a Pilgrimage thing Birth place of Jesus and all that   

Fatah are/were  Yasser Arafat's(from the 80's/90's) group they are more or less dissolved now into various faction ONE of those factions is Hamas

there has been on going attack/incursion by both sides for about 50 years periodically interrupted by externally negotiated cease fires. BOTH sides have always been quick to use any excuse to end the ceasefire.

Hamas classification as terrorists is debatable they are not good but they are not the same as Al qaeda. there are very much linked to the defence of Palestine and Resisting Israel... they do have some support amongst Palestinians.. they are hard to classify honestly because they are part terrorist, part political party, part resistance group, part religious fundamentalists ::dunno:: 

So you think unfair trials to people who voice opinions against Hamas and summery executions does not make them terrorist, suicide bombings etc? Many people within Gaza are too afraid to speak out against Hamas, what does that tell you? There is a big difference between armed resistance and how you carry out that resistance. It is not even debatable, they are an Islamist organisation who hold extreme views and the sooner this world is rid of organisations based on religious views, which enforce such views onto others, the better this world will start to be, it will also save daft arguments occurring over who has rights to an area based on mythical bollocks. This is what the Middle East conflict has always really been about, who's mythical deity has the bigger balls, with the misguided belief who should control that land based on claims to what religious people did in the past, it truly shows what is fucked up with religion.

So it seems to be 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.... Thanks Veya, its clearer now, although it seems both sides are right and both sides are wrong... I shall sit on the fence until I get splinters!

harvesmom wrote:So it seems to be 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.... Thanks Veya, its clearer now, although it seems both sides are right and both sides are wrong... I shall sit on the fence until I get splinters!

probably the best course...

At this point however Israel do look like Finishing off Palestine and Hamas..... time will tell   

Didge wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:Bethlehem and other places are in the region
Plus there are a number of Christians in Gaza but it more a Pilgrimage thing Birth place of Jesus and all that   

Fatah are/were  Yasser Arafat's(from the 80's/90's) group they are more or less dissolved now into various faction ONE of those factions is Hamas

there has been on going attack/incursion by both sides for about 50 years periodically interrupted by externally negotiated cease fires. BOTH sides have always been quick to use any excuse to end the ceasefire.

Hamas classification as terrorists is debatable they are not good but they are not the same as Al qaeda. there are very much linked to the defence of Palestine and Resisting Israel... they do have some support amongst Palestinians.. they are hard to classify honestly because they are part terrorist, part political party, part resistance group, part religious fundamentalists ::dunno:: 

So you think unfair trials to people who voice opinions against Hamas and summery executions does not make them terrorist, suicide bombings etc? Many people within Gaza are too afraid to speak out against Hamas, what does that tell you? There is a big difference between armed resistance and how you carry out that resistance. It is not even debatable, they are an Islamist organisation who hold extreme views and the sooner this world is rid of organisations based on religious views, which enforce such views onto others, the better this world will start to be, it will also save daft arguments occurring over who has rights to an area based on mythical bollocks. This is what the Middle East conflict has always really been about, who's mythical deity has the bigger balls, with the misguided belief who should control that land based on claims to what religious people did in the past, it truly shows what is fucked up with religion.

And that is why I like neither Side...
And would extend that to ALL MONOTHEISTS!!!!!

You cant claim that of Hamas and not accept the same is also true of Israel... It is all a matter of perspective (about which of the imaginary sky giants has the bigger testicles   )

veya_victaous wrote:

Didge wrote:


So you think unfair trials to people who voice opinions against Hamas and summery executions does not make them terrorist, suicide bombings etc? Many people within Gaza are too afraid to speak out against Hamas, what does that tell you? There is a big difference between armed resistance and how you carry out that resistance. It is not even debatable, they are an Islamist organisation who hold extreme views and the sooner this world is rid of organisations based on religious views, which enforce such views onto others, the better this world will start to be, it will also save daft arguments occurring over who has rights to an area based on mythical bollocks. This is what the Middle East conflict has always really been about, who's mythical deity has the bigger balls, with the misguided belief who should control that land based on claims to what religious people did in the past, it truly shows what is fucked up with religion.

And that is why I like neither Side...
And would extend that to ALL MONOTHEISTS!!!!!

You cant claim that of Hamas and not accept the same is also true of Israel... It is all a matter of perspective (about which of the imaginary sky giants has the bigger testicles   )

Nope any religion, because even Buddhists and Hindu's have extremists for example. Israel is not based on religious extremism, its arguments to the land are, but its government laws is not based upon biblical extremism . So again where as minorities have rights within Israel, the same cannot be said for under Hamas, hence why most Christians Arabs live in Israel and not Palestine.

veya_victaous wrote:

harvesmom wrote:So it seems to be 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.... Thanks Veya, its clearer now, although it seems both sides are right and both sides are wrong... I shall sit on the fence until I get splinters!

probably the best course...

At this point however Israel do look like Finishing off Palestine and Hamas..... time will tell   

One more question, after a bit of googling, sorry! Are all Muslims there fighting under the banner of 'Hamas'. Or are other Palestine Muslims innocents caught up in all this?

Is the war between Jews and Muslims, or Israel, Muslims, and Hamas.... I don't think I even understand this question myself   

harvesmom wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

probably the best course...

At this point however Israel do look like Finishing off Palestine and Hamas..... time will tell   

One more question, after a bit of googling, sorry! Are all Muslims there fighting under the banner of 'Hamas'.  Or are other Palestine Muslims innocents caught up in all this?

Is the war between Jews and Muslims, or Israel, Muslims, and Hamas.... I don't think I even understand this question myself   

Hamas has a military wing and yes many innocents in Gaza are caught up in this, as many cannot even speak out against Hamas or agree with them, they wrongly backed them into power back in 2006.
Palestine is split into two, one half governed by Fatah, who were once a terrorist organisation, this iw where Israel builds most of its illegal settlements
The war is based upon who has rights to live there, based on religion and political false promises, with years of hate from the aftermath of war and terrorism.

Israel is based on Religious Extremism, Judaism is based on Religious Extremism.

EVEN their news papers say so

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/jewish-religious-law-threatening-israeli-women-1.400910

Jewish religious law threatening Israeli women
Most Israeli children learn, in schools funded by the state, that women exist for men's use, and it shapes their world.
Many of those who protest against silencing the singing of secular women act out of hypocrisy. Israel sends most first-graders whom the state identifies as Jews to religious schools. Whether they are part of the public school system or run by the ultra-Orthodox, these schools receive state subsidies yet are responsible for unconstitutional sex segregation.

We are not merely talking about silencing the singing of women. The whole truth is made clear in the two creation stories that appear in Genesis. In the first, male and female are created. In the second, man is created alone and woman is later created from his rib.

There is a canonical Orthodox explanation for this contradiction: Man and woman were created together, but the man wanted to rule over the woman. She did not want to rule, only to be independent. So he abused her until God gave her wings and she flew away. That was Lilith. The first Eve and the first feminist, she is the female Satan.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/a-state-governed-by-religious-law-1.273941

A state governed by religious law
We, the secular people, are to blame for the power of the religious. We're the ones who give in.

A few days after tens of thousands of Israelis raised their eyes to the heavens at dawn to honor "the return of the sun to the place it stood at creation," and millions of Israelis joyfully read out praise in the Passover Hagaddah for genocide - jihad by means of horrific plagues and drowning infants - it's time to admit it: We live in a religious country.

That's the case during this holiday, when in some places it's impossible to find leavened products, when the rabbinate seeks to install special computer programs at supermarkets to prevent the sale of leavened foods, when Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger asks Rabbi Yaakov Israel Ifergan to get his follower Nochi Dankner to install the program at his supermarkets, and when the cows of our country are on a leaven-free diet.

We must admit that this society has rather dark religious aspects. Foreigners landing in Israel might ask themselves what country they're in: Iran, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia? In any case, it's not the liberal, secular and enlightened society it purports to be. Thieves' hands do not have to be hacked off or women's faces covered to be a religious country. Just as an occupying state, which controls 3.5 million people lacking basic civil rights, cannot call itself "the only democracy in the Middle East," so a country that has no bread for a week because of its religion cannot call itself secular and liberal.

So unless you know more than Israel leading and oldest daily paper... Pretty sure you just got told.      

That made me fucking laugh, show me the laws?

take your time, not media stories, show me the religious biblical extremist laws in Israel

Maybe you can also explain why Israel has had a female leader Veya, please do not embarrass yourself with media articles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Israel

I don't Veya!! I know nothing about anything, that's why I'm asking!

Thanks Didge, so basically, nothing is ever going to be solved unless one side demolishes the other side. Religion, as its always been said is the root of all evil it seems. Its horrible that children and innocent people are getting caught up in this, but it would appear its not exclusive to one side, they are both as bad as each other.

harvesmom wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

harvesmom wrote:So it seems to be 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.... Thanks Veya, its clearer now, although it seems both sides are right and both sides are wrong... I shall sit on the fence until I get splinters!

probably the best course...

At this point however Israel do look like Finishing off Palestine and Hamas..... time will tell   

One more question, after a bit of googling, sorry! Are all Muslims there fighting under the banner of 'Hamas'.  Or are other Palestine Muslims innocents caught up in all this?

Is the war between Jews and Muslims, or Israel, Muslims, and Hamas.... I don't think I even understand this question myself   

ALL of the above

basically territorially it is between Israel and Palestine...
IDF is the Israeli military .. Hamas is a Palestinian political party cross paramilitary/terrorists. THEY are the ones that are SUPPOSED to be actually fighting.

Palestinians are getting blow up because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time regardless of religion or political views... Israelis get attacked (ineffectively) by Hamas Regardless of their political views.

'Muslims' as such don't really feature as a defined group but the Broader 'Muslim World' is obviously more sympathetic to the majority Muslim Palestinians than the Jewish theocratic state of Israel.

veya_victaous wrote:

harvesmom wrote:

One more question, after a bit of googling, sorry! Are all Muslims there fighting under the banner of 'Hamas'.  Or are other Palestine Muslims innocents caught up in all this?

Is the war between Jews and Muslims, or Israel, Muslims, and Hamas.... I don't think I even understand this question myself   

ALL of the above

basically territorially it is between Israel and Palestine...
IDF is the Israeli military .. Hamas is a Palestinian political party cross paramilitary/terrorists.  THEY are the ones that are SUPPOSED to be actually fighting.

Palestinians are getting blow up because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time regardless of religion or political views...  Israelis get attacked (ineffectively) by Hamas Regardless of their political views.

'Muslims' as such don't really feature as a defined group but the Broader 'Muslim World' is obviously more sympathetic to the majority Muslim Palestinians than the Jewish theocratic state of Israel.

Not bad, but how you claim people dying and being injured to the point of many who have died through suicide attacks ineffective is poor to say the least and Israel is a democratic state for fuck sake

harvesmom wrote:I don't Veya!! I know nothing about anything, that's why I'm asking!

Thanks Didge, so basically, nothing is ever going to be solved unless one side demolishes the other side. Religion, as its always been said is the root of all evil it seems. Its horrible that children and innocent people are getting caught up in this, but it would appear its not exclusive to one side, they are both as bad as each other.

Yes basically people have to stop the hate and recognise both have a right to live there, which will mean changing perceptions and how in each nation this hate is even taught. Again to change he leadership views, you need more in each country that has had enough of being used as pawns that has caused endless suffering for so many. This is why to me, the more people from both sides promote a view of peaceful and affect cooperation and win over more hearts and minds, to the point that become the majority voice in each nation, the better chance there will be of peace. As neither side is going to back down and compromise whilst so much hate still exists

No wonder I don't understand it!

The only thing I would say is that people don't seem to fight fair these days. I remember my Grandad telling me about the second world war, no way would anyone have tried to kill women or children, OK I know it happened, but not deliberately. You aim for military targets.

It doesn't matter what we think, or do they will fight it out between themselves, I just hope for a quick end to it all with a minimum loss of lives.

Didge wrote:Maybe you can also explain why Israel has had a female leader Veya, please do not embarrass yourself with media articles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Israel

SO has India.... In case you hadn't noticed the abhorrent sexism and rape cases there.

And I don't have to I SUPPLIED QUOTES from a leading publican from that nation

you have so far supplied FUCK ALL to support any of your statements...
You said you have a masters you should under stand the concept of referencing to support your argument so far you total is
one Wiki that also contains

On September 28, 2010, the Israeli Supreme Court outlawed public gender segregation in Jerusalem's Mea Shearim neighborhood in response to a petition submitted after extremist Haredi men physically and verbally assaulted women for walking on a designated men's only road

So legally allowed the segregate via gender until 2010 and they only did this after the Jewish extremists were Physically Attacking Women for walking on the street!!!!


http://electronicintifada.net/content/un-body-appalled-israels-racial-segregation-policies/11065

UN body "appalled" by Israel’s racial segregation policies

Israel is criticized for violating the right to equality in a new report by the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD).

An advance version of the CERD report indicates that racial prejudice can be found in almost every facet of Israeli life (“Concluding observations of the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination,” 9 March 2012 [PDF]).

CERD is a body of legal specialists who monitor the implementation of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, which states that any doctrine of superiority based on racial differentiation is scientifically false, morally condemnable, socially unjust and dangerous.

Still Fighting EXTREME sexism in 2012
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/sexism-and-the-state-of-israel-6287448.html

Sexism and the state of Israel
Driven by a theology that refuses to grant women equal rights, ultraorthodox Jews have begun to flex their misogynist muscles. But, says Catrina Stewart, a fightback has begun

When Tanya Rosenblit, a 28-year-old woman from Ashdod, boarded a Jerusalem-bound bus late last year, she caused a stir by refusing to heed the demands of a religious male passenger to move to the back of the bus. Many of the ultraorthodox – known as Haredim – believe that modesty forbids women to sit at the front of the bus with the men, and it is common to see segregated buses with women seated to the rear, often crowded in while seats remain free at the front.

Ms Rosenblit became a minor celebrity in Israel, but her stance was not without consequences, earning her death threats for daring to challenge the religious community.

"The Haredim has always received special treatment in this country and people thought it was okay," she says. "But something has changed... in the sense that they feel they are going to control this country. That's disturbing."

The issue of creeping religious coercion over all aspects of Israelis' lives has taken on huge importance in recent years as the ultraorthodox spread beyond their traditional communities in Jerusalem and outer Tel Aviv in search of cheap housing. But the situation recently reached a head in Beit Shemesh, a town near Jerusalem, when an ultraorthodox man spat at and verbally abused an eight-year-old girl, Naama Margolese, for what he considered was immodest attire.

@harves
that was at 'no references, deny sourced articles' didge  ::::hug::::

harvesmom wrote:No wonder I don't understand it!

The only thing I would say is that people don't seem to fight fair these days. I remember my Grandad telling me about the second world war, no way would anyone have tried to kill women or children, OK I know it happened, but not deliberately. You aim for military targets.

It doesn't matter what we think, or do they will fight it out between themselves, I just hope for a quick end to it all with a minimum loss of lives.

Sadly, this was only the case in the western theater of war in WW2, on the eastern front and Pacific conflict, many women an children were killed, which again was based on a racial and political hate, which is a good example to show where such hate can sadly remove moral views, where innocent women and children are slaughtered, even the Russians were poor with killing civilians and raping women within Germany and even in the western theater of war there were lots of abuses with rape. This is why I say, until perceptions change, all that will happen is the continuation of hate carries on as it has done for years, as there has been little compromise over that time.

Night all

veya_victaous wrote:

Didge wrote:Maybe you can also explain why Israel has had a female leader Veya, please do not embarrass yourself with media articles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Israel

SO has India.... In case you hadn't noticed the abhorrent sexism and rape cases there.

And I don't have to I SUPPLIED QUOTES from a leading publican from that nation

you have so far supplied FUCK ALL to support any of your statements...
You said you have a masters you should under stand the concept of referencing to support your argument so far you total is
one Wiki that also contains

On September 28, 2010, the Israeli Supreme Court outlawed public gender segregation in Jerusalem's Mea Shearim neighborhood in response to a petition submitted after extremist Haredi men physically and verbally assaulted women for walking on a designated men's only road

So legally allowed the segregate via gender until 2010 and they only did this after the Jewish extremists were Physically Attacking Women for walking on the street!!!!


http://electronicintifada.net/content/un-body-appalled-israels-racial-segregation-policies/11065

UN body "appalled" by Israel’s racial segregation policies

Israel is criticized for violating the right to equality in a new report by the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD).

An advance version of the CERD report indicates that racial prejudice can be found in almost every facet of Israeli life (“Concluding observations of the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination,” 9 March 2012 [PDF]).

CERD is a body of legal specialists who monitor the implementation of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, which states that any doctrine of superiority based on racial differentiation is scientifically false, morally condemnable, socially unjust and dangerous.

Still Fighting EXTREME sexism in 2012
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/sexism-and-the-state-of-israel-6287448.html

Sexism and the state of Israel
Driven by a theology that refuses to grant women equal rights, ultraorthodox Jews have begun to flex their misogynist muscles. But, says Catrina Stewart, a fightback has begun

When Tanya Rosenblit, a 28-year-old woman from Ashdod, boarded a Jerusalem-bound bus late last year, she caused a stir by refusing to heed the demands of a religious male passenger to move to the back of the bus. Many of the ultraorthodox – known as Haredim – believe that modesty forbids women to sit at the front of the bus with the men, and it is common to see segregated buses with women seated to the rear, often crowded in while seats remain free at the front.

Ms Rosenblit became a minor celebrity in Israel, but her stance was not without consequences, earning her death threats for daring to challenge the religious community.

"The Haredim has always received special treatment in this country and people thought it was okay," she says. "But something has changed... in the sense that they feel they are going to control this country. That's disturbing."

The issue of creeping religious coercion over all aspects of Israelis' lives has taken on huge importance in recent years as the ultraorthodox spread beyond their traditional communities in Jerusalem and outer Tel Aviv in search of cheap housing. But the situation recently reached a head in Beit Shemesh, a town near Jerusalem, when an ultraorthodox man spat at and verbally abused an eight-year-old girl, Naama Margolese, for what he considered was immodest attire.

@harves
that was at 'no references, deny sourced articles' didge  ::::hug::::

Hilarious, show me the laws, not media articles of some abuses that have happened, talk about clutching at straws, do you buy everything the media prints Veya?

Ha Ha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel

Untill tomorrow, sorry, but present facts on laws, not where abuses has happened.

I suggest you look at the bottom of each wiki page for the countless links and prove to me Israel is not a democracy but a theocracy run by religious extremist laws !

Bless

Night

well as people seem to be saying that the laws are routinely perverted by religious exclusion that allow orthodox Jews to IGNORE secular law
YES THAT IS THEOCRACY it is definitely not Democracy where one group get exemption for religious purposes.

SO again all you got is now 2 wiki pages that Contains Statements that support what I am saying about the relativity of Israel being lead by Theocratic fundamentalists
From Your link

In April 2012 the UN released an official statement on which Israel was listed as a country that is restricting the activities of human rights organisations. Israel, the only democratic country to be named on the list

So Israel is only not a theocratic human rights abuser IF the UN and Amnesty international are Evil anti Zionist Nazis

and the open work they do to Discredit the UN and Amnesty international

Amnesty International (AI) has been accused by the American Jewish Congress and NGO Monitor of having a double standard when it comes to its assessment of Israel

Hillel Neuer of UN Watch, a group financed by the pro-Israel group the American Jewish Committee, has described the actions of the UN Commission on Human Rights as a "campaign to demonize Israel".

2 organisation that are highly unlikely to be Nazis, Pretty sure it just shows how much propaganda the Jewish community leaders have put out there.

So again
prove to me that Israel is Since Amnesty international And UN claim they are REALLY bad at it.
Again there is now half a dozen links to different articles by me by you got 2 to wiki... pretty sure that means it is YOUR turn   


Do it tomorrow and go to sleep     

harvesmom wrote:I don't Veya!! I know nothing about anything, that's why I'm asking!

Thanks Didge, so basically, nothing is ever going to be solved unless one side demolishes the other side. Religion, as its always been said is the root of all evil it seems. Its horrible that children and innocent people are getting caught up in this, but it would appear its not exclusive to one side, they are both as bad as each other.

In this case it is religion because Israel is the land of the Jews God's chosen people and until they claim it back which is scriptural there will never be peace .
My signature gives the explanation .

So still no evidence from Veya that Israel is a extremist Theocracy, and claiming where some orthodox Jews have broken the law is not evidence.

For a start lets have your understanding of a Theocracy?

Second your understanding of religious extremism?

You made the absurd claim it is a theocracy, everybody else calls it a democracy, showing clearly you do not know what a Theocracy is.


Over to you

Well, this was from the Jewish Daily Forward a couple of years ago, it's got worse since then:

It is becoming increasingly obvious that a break between Israel and Diaspora Jewry, particularly its American variety, is fast approaching. The reason for this is that Israel is slowly but inexorably turning into a conservative theocracy while the Diaspora is largely dedicated to liberal democracy.

The strategy of the “pro-Israel” camp among American Jewish organizations and neoconservative pundits has been, so far, one of avoidance of unpleasant facts coupled with unpleasant insinuations about the loyalties of those who insist on taking them seriously. But denial can work in only the short term, and only with an American Jewish population that identifies closely with Israel and relates all threats back to the Holocaust. These conditions, like the generation that sustained them, are not long for this world. Once this aging constituency is gone, the truth will prove unavoidable and it will be too late to deny it any longer.

Israel is no democracy, and it never has been with regard to the 4 million Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza. It has always been a decidedly imperfect democracy concerning its own Arab citizens.

Lately, however, it has become less and less democratic with regard to the rights of its Jewish population. For reasons of demography, the Israeli body politic is increasingly dominated by Haredi Jews on the one hand, and secular nationalists, many of whose families emigrated from Russia, on the other. Neither group demonstrates any intrinsic interest in liberal political niceties like free speech, minority political rights or civil liberties.

The trend was already evident when the government passed a bill that makes any initiator of a boycott, whether consumer, academic or cultural, liable to be sued in civil court for damages by anyone who feels impacted by the boycott. A boycott is a fundamental right of free speech. Personally, I make it a point to boycott any Jewish philanthropy that contributes to the continued occupation of the West Bank. I do this for what I understand to be Israel’s well-being more than for that of the Palestinians, but if I were to say so aloud in Israel, I could be sued.

Read more: http://forward.com/articles/147521/israel-turning-into-theocracy/#ixzz38HUU4yPv

Much longer article, very interesting, the fact that it talks about things that might be passed by Knesset that would make it even less democratic and have since been passed is particularly eye opening.

OMG, what tripe, all arabs, get the vote, can be members of Parliament etc etc, such articles are quite appalling and are nothing but trash, as a Theocracy takes the view point that the deity of their religion is the supreme ruler of the land and all laws are based upon the religious works which in this case would by the Torah, which is so far removed from the actual laws of Israel, so to claim it is a Theocracy is nothing but utter bullshit. Where you have a Theocracy is in some Muslim countries, not Israel.

The US should stop meddling in Israel's affairs. Typical short-sightedness of those in power for only 8-yeas...Kerry is over there trying to convince Tel Aviv to go easy.

Faux News wrote:Secretary of State John Kerry landed in Israel Wednesday as part of his latest effort to broker an elusive truce between Israel and Hamas that would halt fighting in the Gaza Strip.

The secretary arrived in Tel Aviv despite a Federal Aviation Administration order temporarily halting commercial flights into the city -- a ban imposed after a Hamas rocket landed less than a mile from Ben-Gurion Airport.

Kerry was to meet with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon in Jerusalem and Ramallah in what appeared to be a crucial day in the flailing talks.

U.S. officials have downplayed expectations for an immediate, lasting truce between Israel and Hamas. At the least, Kerry's mission Wednesday sought to define the limits of what each side would accept in a potential cease-fire.

Hey John...some surgery hurts. Hamas has got to be cut out. It is an infection. Let Israel do its job.

Dead children are an infection. Well, I suppose someone had to go as low as that.