Food bank charity told to stop criticising benefit system or face shut-down – by the government

The chair of the Trussell Trust has said that the charity made a decision to tone down its criticisms of the benefit system after someone in power warned them that they could get shut down.

Chris Mould, chair of the Trussell Trust, was giving evidence to the Panel on the Independence of the Voluntary Sector yesterday when he said that the charity, which aims to tackle poverty, had been criticised by the government for raising awareness of the need for food banks.

He said that he had seen several examples of how “people in power do pretty inappropriate things at times to try and curb and curtail independence of a voluntary organisation when it proves to be inconvenient to them”.

Mould, who made it clear that the charity was not a campaigning organisation, told the panel that most of these examples had arisen in private conversations with those in power.
'Government might try to shut you down'

He said that in a face-to-face conversation in March 2013 with "someone in power", he was told that he must think more carefully otherwise “the government might try to shut you down”.

Mould said: “This was spoken in anger, but is the kind of dialogue that can occur. It exposes the way people think in the political world about their relationship with the voluntary sector when things are getting difficult. What can we do?”

The charity then took the decision to tone down its criticisms so that the government would maintain its contact. Mould said that this decision was a response of a “positive nature”.

http://www.civilsociety.co.uk/governance/news/content/17632/trussell_trust_chair_told_the_government_might_try_to_shut_you_down

Smith and his cronies are nothing more that two-faced sniveling chancers in a government that is full of them. Get these clowns out.



Greed Cameras outside food banks will be next.

Quite right too.

Irn Bru wrote:The chair of the Trussell Trust has said that the charity made a decision to tone down its criticisms of the benefit system after someone in power warned them that they could get shut down.

Chris Mould, chair of the Trussell Trust, was giving evidence to the Panel on the Independence of the Voluntary Sector yesterday when he said that the charity, which aims to tackle poverty, had been criticised by the government for raising awareness of the need for food banks.

He said that he had seen several examples of how “people in power do pretty inappropriate things at times to try and curb and curtail independence of a voluntary organisation when it proves to be inconvenient to them”.

Mould, who made it clear that the charity was not a campaigning organisation, told the panel that most of these examples had arisen in private conversations with those in power.
'Government might try to shut you down'

He said that in a face-to-face conversation in March 2013 with "someone in power", he was told that he must think more carefully otherwise “the government might try to shut you down”.

Mould said: “This was spoken in anger, but is the kind of dialogue that can occur. It exposes the way people think in the political world about their relationship with the voluntary sector when things are getting difficult. What can we do?”

The charity then took the decision to tone down its criticisms so that the government would maintain its contact. Mould said that this decision was a response of a “positive nature”.

http://www.civilsociety.co.uk/governance/news/content/17632/trussell_trust_chair_told_the_government_might_try_to_shut_you_down

Smith and his cronies are nothing more that two-faced sniveling chancers in a government that is full of them. Get these clowns out.



Greed Cameras outside food banks will be next.

Totalitarianism at work. The Government is all, you must not criticise the Government.

Iwonder how many really need this,or are some jumping on the "Band Wagon" saying that ,how did that saying come about?

But most users of these food banks are working and not on benefits aren't they....???



Why would anyone receiving benefits be going to food banks unless they are not already spending their benefit money on food...???

Is that not blackmail?, what a disgrace...Cameron is exposed for his austerity on the poorest and most vulnerable , this a trusses a trust has every right to highlight what a shambles this country is in hugely in part to this failed coalition government.

But we're told food bank users are mostly working people..... not on benefits....

If getting benefits, why are they not spending it on food?

Tommy Monk wrote:But we're told food bank users are mostly working people..... not on benefits....

If getting benefits, why are they not spending it on food?

Probably sanctions and such things like delaying payments and blaming backlogs and targets being set to get people off benefits.

So if so many people are using food banks now and they were not before why do you think that is?

But we are told that most are working, not on any benefits at all....


A sanction is only imposed on those failing to comply with job seekers agreement or failing to turn up for signing or on courses.


And hardship payments are available for them.


I think a lot of people are just after a free lunch...

I'm coming to the conclusion you simply can't understand anything. These are working people GETTING WORKING TAX CREDITS ie benefits as well as those who, the government admits, don't get their jsa or disability benefits on time.

And hardship payment have been withdrawn.

Tommy Monk wrote:But we are told that most are working, not on any benefits at all....


A sanction is only imposed on those failing to comply with job seekers agreement or failing to turn up for signing or on courses.


And hardship payments are available for them.


I think a lot of people are just after a free lunch...

Who told you that? Iain Duncan Smith?

::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: 

Sassy wrote:::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: 

Hilarious isn't it

Irn Bru wrote:

Sassy wrote:::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: 

Hilarious isn't it

Actually, it's exactly what Robert Tressell said, people bowing down to authority and 'knowing their place' and helping the authorities stamp all over them:



“Poverty is not caused by men and women getting married; it's not caused by machinery; it's not caused by "over-production"; it's not caused by drink or laziness; and it's not caused by "over-population". It's caused by Private Monopoly. That is the present system. They have monopolized everything that it is possible to monopolize; they have got the whole earth, the minerals in the earth and the streams that water the earth. The only reason they have not monopolized the daylight and the air is that it is not possible to do it. If it were possible to construct huge gasometers and to draw together and compress within them the whole of the atmosphere, it would have been done long ago, and we should have been compelled to work for them in order to get money to buy air to breathe. And if that seemingly impossible thing were accomplished tomorrow, you would see thousands of people dying for want of air - or of the money to buy it - even as now thousands are dying for want of the other necessities of life. You would see people going about gasping for breath, and telling each other that the likes of them could not expect to have air to breathe unless the had the money to pay for it. Most of you here, for instance, would think and say so. Even as you think at present that it's right for so few people to own the Earth, the Minerals and the Water, which are all just as necessary as is the air. In exactly the same spirit as you now say: "It's Their Land," "It's Their Water," "It's Their Coal," "It's Their Iron," so you would say "It's Their Air," "These are their gasometers, and what right have the likes of us to expect them to allow us to breathe for nothing?" And even while he is doing this the air monopolist will be preaching sermons on the Brotherhood of Man; he will be dispensing advice on "Christian Duty" in the Sunday magazines; he will give utterance to numerous more or less moral maxims for the guidance of the young. And meantime, all around, people will be dying for want of some of the air that he will have bottled up in his gasometers. And when you are all dragging out a miserable existence, gasping for breath or dying for want of air, if one of your number suggests smashing a hole in the side of one of th gasometers, you will all fall upon him in the name of law and order, and after doing your best to tear him limb from limb, you'll drag him, covered with blood, in triumph to the nearest Police Station and deliver him up to "justice" in the hope of being given a few half-pounds of air for your trouble.”

It's only since this miserable shower of chancers came to power that food banks have rocketed up in numbers so there must be a connection somewhere.

Of course there is, but the cap doffers will find any reason to deny it.

Sassy wrote:Of course there is, but the cap doffers will find any reason to deny it.

People using food banks must be desperate to have to get a voucher to go into a food bank to get food but this government and the cap doffers and forelock tuggers just dismiss them as scroungers on the take for all they can get.

They weren't needing to use food banks before this lot got in. What a poor opinion this government and the doffers have of it's citizens who are in need of help that they would do that.

It's disgusting.

Monkeys, food banks were here already under labour, plus tax credits were a labour invention too..... and both going on years before this govt took over the mess labour left behind.....


Napp immigration drove up costs of living and drove down wages while also costing the tax payer billions......




13 years of ruin will take more than 4 years to sort out.

Tommy Monk wrote:But we are told that most are working, not on any benefits at all....


A sanction is only imposed on those failing to comply with job seekers agreement or failing to turn up for signing or on courses.


And hardship payments are available for them.


I think a lot of people are just after a free lunch...

The reality is Tommy more and more working people are having to use food banks thats true. However bear in mind all you get is basic ration of non perishable food for three days. You can only use the food bank 3 times in 12 months,so if you look at the number of visits to food bank that take place it equates to an awful lot of people.

Irn Bru wrote:............................
Chris Mould, chair of the Trussell Trust, was giving evidence to the Panel on the Independence of the Voluntary Sector yesterday when he said that the charity, which aims to tackle poverty, had been criticised by the government for raising awareness of the need for food banks.

He said that he had seen several examples of how “people in power do pretty inappropriate things at times to try and curb and curtail independence of a voluntary organisation when it proves to be inconvenient to them”.

Mould, who made it clear that the charity was not a campaigning organisation, told the panel that most of these examples had arisen in private conversations with those in power....

He said that in a face-to-face conversation in March 2013 with "someone in power", he was told that he must think more carefully otherwise “the government might try to shut you down”...........................

  

YOU would think that people in government would be savvy enough as to know that they can't get away with this sort of nonsense over the long term ~ it always 'comes out in the wash eventually', as the various ministries and bureaucrats can't keep them hidden forever...

BUT NO, these days there seems to be even more idiots in all of our governments than ever before !

(DOWN here in recent months there has been similar examples of a junior senator and a minister's staffer in two separate incidents, interfering in matters technically and legally outside of their responsibilities.. The Lib's are trying to ignore and excuse their staffers bullyboy tactics;  but at the same time they have left their Senator "swinging in the wind" as she was already 'on warning' for previous bullying tactics and suspected corruption... She could well be bounced out of government before the next election..).[/i]

Nems wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:But we are told that most are working, not on any benefits at all....


A sanction is only imposed on those failing to comply with job seekers agreement or failing to turn up for signing or on courses.


And hardship payments are available for them.


I think a lot of people are just after a free lunch...

The reality is Tommy more and more working people are having to use food banks thats true. However bear in mind all you get is basic ration of non perishable food for three days. You can only use the food bank 3 times in 12 months,so if you look at the number of visits to food bank that take place it equates to an awful lot of people.

Sorry nems but if you believe the rules about only using them 3 times in 12 months are enforced then you are being horribly horribly naive.

If what the food banks were telling us was totally and verifiably true then yes there would be a major problem. However that is not the case.

The issue (as always) is neither the food banks nor the government is telling the total truth nor are either telling total lies. They are both taking isolated bits of truth and putting spin on them to meet their own ends.

Also if anyone thinks this is a new problem they could not be more wrong. OK 25 years ago there were no food banks - however at that time big supermarkets did not keep their waste skips in secure protected compounds and every night there would be a steady feed of individuals turning up and taking the food being thrown out that day. I know this because on occasion I joined those individuals.

Irn Bru wrote:

Sassy wrote:Of course there is, but the cap doffers will find any reason to deny it.

People using food banks must be desperate to have to get a voucher to go into a food bank to get food but this government and the cap doffers and forelock tuggers just dismiss them as scroungers on the take for all they can get.

They weren't needing to use food banks before this lot got in. What a poor opinion this government and the doffers have of it's citizens who are in need of help that they would do that.

It's disgusting.

  

What is doubly disgusting: That the Tories themselves have happily created this situation. As always..

What is triply disgusting: That the Righteous Whingers on here are happily looking for ways to excuse the government and kick and abuse the more desperate citizens, especially when they're down and struggling...

Proudly led today by the gormless liar "Tommy Monk" and that nasty and selfish old moo "Sphinx", trying their best to again blame the victims.. As always !   

BigAndy9 wrote:
Quite right too.

  

I MUST say that the "Maggie Thatcher" hairdo that you chose for your photo session for your avvie there looks quite becoming on you, B'Andy !!!

THE resemblance is uncanny.. [And quite unsettling, at the same time !]  

sphinx wrote:

Nems wrote:

The reality is Tommy more and more working people are having to use food banks thats true. However bear in mind all you get is basic ration of non perishable food for three days. You can only use the food bank 3 times in 12 months,so if you look at the number of visits to food bank that take place it equates to an awful lot of people.

Sorry nems but if you believe the rules about only using them 3 times in 12 months are enforced then you are being horribly horribly naive.

If what the food banks were telling us was totally and verifiably true then yes there would be a major problem.   However that is not the case.

The issue (as always) is neither the food banks nor the government is telling the total truth nor are either telling total lies.  They are both taking isolated bits of truth and putting spin on them to meet their own ends.

Also if anyone thinks this is a new problem they could not be more wrong.  OK  25 years ago there were no food banks - however at that time  big supermarkets did not keep their waste skips in secure protected compounds and every night there would be a steady feed of individuals turning up and taking the food being thrown out that day.  I know this because on occasion I joined those individuals.

I can only go on my personal experience Sphinx. I know its far from perfect, but it is undeniable that more and more people are struggling.
Supermarkets are not allowed to do that anymore,they used to take it to homeless charities, but since the govt decided there are only six rough sleepers in Liverpool that was all withdrawn.

Nems wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Sorry nems but if you believe the rules about only using them 3 times in 12 months are enforced then you are being horribly horribly naive.

If what the food banks were telling us was totally and verifiably true then yes there would be a major problem.   However that is not the case.

The issue (as always) is neither the food banks nor the government is telling the total truth nor are either telling total lies.  They are both taking isolated bits of truth and putting spin on them to meet their own ends.

Also if anyone thinks this is a new problem they could not be more wrong.  OK  25 years ago there were no food banks - however at that time  big supermarkets did not keep their waste skips in secure protected compounds and every night there would be a steady feed of individuals turning up and taking the food being thrown out that day.  I know this because on occasion I joined those individuals.

I can only go on my personal experience Sphinx. I know its far from perfect, but it is undeniable that more and more people are struggling.
Supermarkets are not allowed to do that anymore,they used to take it to homeless charities, but since the govt decided there are only six rough sleepers in Liverpool that was all withdrawn.

What a waste   

There are people trying to make a difference though for example http://foodcycle.org.uk/

Things like that are the way to deal with it, We used to have the community centre which was multi use but included a creche and classes on art etc as well as a pensioners lunch club. We used it as outreach bet you can guess what happened?!

Nems wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Sorry nems but if you believe the rules about only using them 3 times in 12 months are enforced then you are being horribly horribly naive.

If what the food banks were telling us was totally and verifiably true then yes there would be a major problem.   However that is not the case.

The issue (as always) is neither the food banks nor the government is telling the total truth nor are either telling total lies.  They are both taking isolated bits of truth and putting spin on them to meet their own ends.

Also if anyone thinks this is a new problem they could not be more wrong.  OK  25 years ago there were no food banks - however at that time  big supermarkets did not keep their waste skips in secure protected compounds and every night there would be a steady feed of individuals turning up and taking the food being thrown out that day.  I know this because on occasion I joined those individuals.

I can only go on my personal experience Sphinx. I know its far from perfect, but it is undeniable that more and more people are struggling.
Supermarkets are not allowed to do that anymore,they used to take it to homeless charities, but since the govt decided there are only six rough sleepers in Liverpool that was all withdrawn.

Yes more and more people are struggling but not all of that is to do with government policies. Some of it - maybe even a majority (as in 51% or more) of it, is due to their own spending habits.
Income in relation to price of a loaf of bread is still higher than during many other times - even allowing for housing and energy costs most incomes should be sufficient to manage but peoples definition of managing has changed and things that should be described as luxuries are considered necessities.

As for supermarket waste - in some areas it might have gone to homeless charities in lots it was just taken away by bin lorries. The people visiting the skips were not official homeless or official anything and were technically stealing. The police and supermarkets turned a blind eye while knowing it was going on and there were rules and hierarchies even if nothing was written down, official or even acknowledged.

My point is that the people then had just as much if not more need than do people now (this was before minimum wage, tax credits, winter fuel allowance or anything like that - people could be and were more worse off if counting income against cost of a loaf of bread) but food banks were, at least outside of big cities, unheard or even un-thought of. Using the Trussell argument that need can be divined by food bank usage there was no need because there were no food banks. That is a fallacious conclusion and I am simply trying to show that.

I reckon a lot of these food bank users are skint because they have already spent their money on credit and use most of their available incoming cash to service their debts....

So they get all the things they have already bought and others pay for their food!!!

Yep, you would cap doffer, those who have investigated it know you are talking out of your rear end. Situation normal.

More denial from Sassy.....

You are the one in denial. The reasons were investigated and proved to be because of low pay and hold ups (some of them deliberate) in the benefits system.

Low pay????


When did this start Sassy???


Was that before the minimum wage or after???

Was that before tax credits or after???


Was that anything to do with labours disastrous mass immigration that drove up costs of living and drove down wages by any chance????

You are so in denial Tommy, keep cap doffing.

Tommy Monk wrote:Low pay????


When did this start Sassy???


Was that before the minimum wage or after???


Was that before tax credits or after???


Was that anything to do with labours disastrous mass immigration that drove up costs of living and drove down wages by any chance????

So any answers then Sassy?????

Sorry but there are plenty of people who manage to deal with the low pay or benefits hold ups (deliberate or otherwise) without needing to go to food banks.

When you have 2 people in the same situation and one is able to manage and the other is not you cannot put all the blame on the government.

There has to be some personal responsibility somewhere.

Exactly.






Still nothing Sassy???

Sassy wrote:You are the one in denial.   The reasons were investigated and proved to be because of low pay and hold ups (some of them deliberate) in the benefits system.

Correct but as usual there are the cap doffers and the tuggers who just want to blame the victims. The Trussell Fund reported a couple a years ago that this would happen and they have been proved to be correct

The delays were happening back then in 2011 and it's even worse now. Just two days ago the government were under fire for delays to thousands of people.

Backlog falling

An official from the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) told MPs that Atos, which has agreed to end its contract early, "couldn't deliver the quality at the capacity we want".

However, a DWP spokesperson later said Atos was "now processing more cases than come in" and the backlog was falling.

The DWP said the total backlog stood at 712,000 people. Of these, 394,000 are new claimants for ESA and 234,000 are existing ESA recipients whose reassessments as to whether they are still entitled to the benefit have been delayed.

A further 84,000 are people still on incapacity benefit who have not yet been moved over to ESA.

Mr Penning said the government had failed to meet its own deadline of moving these people onto the new benefit by April.

This manky lot in power should be ashamed of themselves and anyone defending them over this shambles should be as well.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27796739

How are the cap doffers etc in denial any more than the bleeding hearts are?

The government (this and the last) are in denial that their polices are resulting in some suffering.

The bleeding hearts are in denial that the people affected might be anything except helpless victims.

Both sides are as bad as each other because while they spend the whole time trying to persuade people they are the ones who are right (when neither are) nothing is being done to actually deal with and solve the problems.

sphinx wrote:How are the cap doffers etc in denial any more than the bleeding hearts are?

The government (this and the last) are in denial that their polices are resulting in some suffering.

The bleeding hearts are in denial that the people affected might be anything except helpless victims.

Both sides are as bad as each other because while they spend the whole time trying to persuade people they are the ones who are right (when neither are) nothing is being done to actually deal with and solve the problems.

Explain this...

Anyway, I'm away to get a good seat and some drinks to settle down for the match. But while I'm away can you explain this as well and whether that may just be a reason for the figures rocketing up.

Backlog falling

An official from the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) told MPs that Atos, which has agreed to end its contract early, "couldn't deliver the quality at the capacity we want".

However, a DWP spokesperson later said Atos was "now processing more cases than come in" and the backlog was falling.

The DWP said the total backlog stood at 712,000 people. Of these, 394,000 are new claimants for ESA and 234,000 are existing ESA recipients whose reassessments as to whether they are still entitled to the benefit have been delayed.

A further 84,000 are people still on incapacity benefit who have not yet been moved over to ESA.

Mr Penning said the government had failed to meet its own deadline of moving these people onto the new benefit by April.

They are still awaiting assessment.

As you're an unofficial benefits advisor to claimants I'm sure you will be able to tell those that come to you for help that they're just bleeding hearts and to get on with it and stop moaning.

Good luck

You think there is a simple explanation I take it?

It is a complex phenomenon with roots in many areas including but not limited to financial changes both under and outside the governments control, changes in peoples habits, personal choices, peoples desire to show they are necessary, societies expectations and many more.

It most definitely is not something simple like the nasty government being nasty to poor people.

Irn Bru wrote:Anyway, I'm away to get a good seat and some drinks to settle down for the match. But while I'm away can you explain this as well and whether that may just be a reason for the figures rocketing up.

Backlog falling

An official from the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) told MPs that Atos, which has agreed to end its contract early, "couldn't deliver the quality at the capacity we want".

However, a DWP spokesperson later said Atos was "now processing more cases than come in" and the backlog was falling.

The DWP said the total backlog stood at 712,000 people. Of these, 394,000 are new claimants for ESA and 234,000 are existing ESA recipients whose reassessments as to whether they are still entitled to the benefit have been delayed.

A further 84,000 are people still on incapacity benefit who have not yet been moved over to ESA.

Mr Penning said the government had failed to meet its own deadline of moving these people onto the new benefit by April.

They are still awaiting assessment.

As you're an unofficial benefits advisor to claimants I'm sure you will be able to tell those that come to you for help that they're just bleeding hearts and to get on with it and stop moaning.

Good luck

You know strangely enough it has never come up - because nobody I know has been left without money.

I do not call the claimants bleeding hearts I call the middle class idiots who insist that the answer to all problems is to throw money at them. Those who insist that its the governments fault that so and so is going to a food bank and they are totally helpless victims because the sky subscription and drugs are nothing to do with their money problems.

If more people manage perfectly well dealing with the system without needing foodbanks why is it the system at fault for the minority who do not cope?

Well aren't the people around you lucky!

This from http://www.theyworkforyou.com/whall/?id=2014-04-09b.63.0

Debate in HOC:


[Albert Owen in the Chair] — Personal Independence Payments (Wales)

Next debate » All Westminster Hall debates on 9 Apr 2014

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting be now adjourned.—(John Penrose.)



Susan Elan Jones (Opposition Whip (Commons); Clwyd South, Labour)

Diolch yn fawr, Mr Owen. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I am pleased to have secured this debate on personal independent payments in Wales. It is an important debate for many of our constituents, including many of the most vulnerable, who are being failed by the system. I hope that hon. Members here today will share cases from their constituencies and that we will get some action from the Government.

I could, like other hon. Members, share with the House many accounts given to me by constituents of their experiences. I will begin with one told to me by a lady from Gwynfryn in my constituency, who was diagnosed with breast cancer on 22 August. After fighting through two rounds of surgery, and showing continued strength through chemotherapy, she approached me in January to see if there was any help that my staff and I could offer her. My constituent had applied for personal independence payments soon after her diagnosis. She knew she would be unfit to work and that she would need financial support through a difficult time. She received a response from Capita and waited her turn, hoping that the backlog would clear. My constituent is still not receiving PIP—or any financial support; and she is still undergoing chemotherapy.

Capita’s own information pack, given to applicants, states that assessments should be made within “approximately 28 days.” I think we can all agree that my constituent—like many other people in a similar position—has waited long enough. The current Government have instituted a system in Wales that is meant to offer advice and assessment, and to provide support, but it is failing woefully. The absurd situation in my constituency is that Department for Work and Pensions staff are advising local people to get in touch with me to see whether I can help the process along with Capita. Government employees are advising my constituents to contact me, as their elected official, to put pressure on a body that was instituted by the current Government and is paid for by taxpayers the length and breadth of the country.

Capita, of course, is an external body—a registered company that is independent in how it chooses to run itself. However, it is clearly failing to adhere to guidelines on processing dates and fulfilling contractual duties, and it is letting down those who desperately need support. That is not good enough. Dim digon da. The Tory-led Government decided to place Capita in charge of PIP assessments in Wales and allowed that system to be put in place without any serious pilot scheme. That cannot be right.

Last week, at our request, a senior representative of Capita met some Welsh Labour MPs. To our horror, in answer to our questions we were told that the company originally thought that assessments would take “around an hour”; in reality they take between two and two and a half hours. In the same meeting, again in answer to our questions, Members were told that Capita estimated it would need to assess 70% of applicants face to face. We were told that that figure is closer to 99%. How could those figures be so wrong? Where was that clarification from the Department for Work and Pensions before the contract—paid for by public money, I remind the House—was granted?

Link to this: Individually | In context
Hansard source (Citation: HC Deb, 9 April 2014, c63WH)


Kevin Brennan (Shadow Minister (Education); Cardiff West, Labour)

Like many other hon. Members I could cite cases to reinforce the point about MPs being used by the company to solve issues. Does my hon. Friend hope that the Minister will tear up the parts of his speech that may have been provided by officials about the general background to personal independence payments policy, and that he will focus instead on the failure of the past year, and the suffering that constituents have gone through because of that incompetence? He should explain what has happened and what will be done in future, and apologise to those constituents—who are often the most vulnerable—for the suffering inflicted on them.

Link to this: Individually | In context
Hansard source (Citation: HC Deb, 9 April 2014, c64WH)


Susan Elan Jones (Opposition Whip (Commons); Clwyd South, Labour)

I agree wholeheartedly with my hon. Friend.

The Minister may be heartened to hear me mention a previous Prime Minister, Baroness Thatcher, who used to say she believed we should run the national budget like a household budget. Leaving aside our views on the politics of the late Baroness, perhaps we can use that analogy here, to look at the scandal of the joint DWP and Capita mess that has been made with our money. We might imagine Capita as a firm of builders hired for a two-week job at an agreed daily rate, but which has already taken a month and is still nowhere near finishing. If I or many of my constituents had hired those builders, they would be out on their ear. What if Capita were a local charity, such as the type I used to manage before I became an MP: the local organisation that has to negotiate with a local authority or other body for a service level agreement? We can imagine the conversation: “We are not seeing the agreed number of clients; we are not getting things done on time,” and so on. If a small or medium-sized voluntary or community group, dealing with the council or another external body, was in that position, the agreement would be terminated.

Yet we are not talking about one household and an incompetent builder, or a small or medium-sized charity working with a council. We are talking about a failure, paid for by the tax-paying public and being subsidised massively on a multi-million pound basis. It is time that someone, somehow, somewhere—preferably the Government—carried the can for what has happened as the result of a deal between a private company and the Government, which is not working. Capita has not delivered on its contract with the Department for Work and Pensions. It has time and again displayed the fact that it is letting people down. At what point will the Government stand up, take notice of the constituents who are asking for help, and take action on an issue that is becoming more serious with every passing day?

In Penycae, another village in my constituency, a constituent suffers from terrible arthritis throughout her body, and is on lifelong medication as a result. Until last year, my constituent held a responsible, white-collar job. In June, her contract was terminated for reasons of medical capability. One would think that at that point she would receive support, but since she left her job in June she has been waiting on PIP. She has been waiting for Capita. She is completely unable to work and that has been confirmed by her GP and by hospital consultants. My constituent can provide personal reports, X-rays and supporting documents that make it crystal clear that she is entitled, in need and completely genuine; there is no doubt about it.

Why, then, is the system failing my constituent and so many others like her across Wales? The Government’s fact sheet on personal independence payments says:

“PIP is to help towards some of the extra costs arising from a health condition or disability.”

PIP, the replacement for disability living allowance put in place by the current Government, can be anything from £21 to £134 a week. It can be used to cover transport, care and all sorts of other costs that can be vital to those who are disabled or sick. By the Government’s own admission, PIP is support for people when they are unable to work because of a health condition or disability and need financial help. That is what the Government say PIP is, and that is what they claim Capita is providing.

The constituent I mentioned is still waiting for any kind of financial help. She is receiving no level of care from Capita or any other Government body. Since being forced to leave her job in June, she has been completely outside the system and is without any financial support. As a result, my constituent has lost her bank account and is experiencing the attention of debt recovery services. For Capita to tell someone like my constituent from Penycae that her case is in the queue, that a backlog is being experienced and that someone will “get to her when they can”—I believe those were the exact words—is absolutely not good enough. My constituent cannot wait another few months for money to come in. She needs it now. In fact, she has needed it since June, when she first applied. How many people can seriously be expected to live for nine or 10 months without any income? Yet that is what is happening in her case.

I did not read any further than PIP and unfit for work in the same sentence because the 2 are nothing to do with each other and any report linking them has to have an inaccurate bias.

I have not said the government are blameless - I have said they are not totally to blame.

One of the biggest problems is that for sickness benefits people really need expert help to fill out the forms because the level of detail it is felt necessary to combat fraud is beyond the imagination of the ordinary applicant. Mr Smith who has worked 30 years and never claimed in his life thinks that saying severe arthritis in the knees makes it obvious he cannot do things while unfortunately the decision maker needs to know far more. One of the reasons the decision maker needs to know far more is the growing number of conditions and individuals who do not fit in boxes. One person with arthritic knees may be able to walk reasonably well but struggle with stairs, while another may struggle to walk. Combine that with the fact that people do tend to find ways of doing things and you end up with the system where you need an expert to help fill out the form.

The vast majority of people who run into problems when claiming and get denied what they should be getting have those issues simply because they have not had the expert help with the claim (and no the government does not provide the expert help).

I repeat there are some problems, and the government does bear some responsibility but it is over simplifying to make them out to be the only bad guy and a deliberate bad guy at that. It is far more complex than that and everyone pointing at someone else saying it is their fault and their fault alone means a solution will never be found.

Well, the charities involved did a very big investigation into it and said that it was the benefits system that was to blame, so I think they are the ones with the most information.

But most of the food bank users are working and not on benefits aren't they...???



That is What we have been continually told!!!!




And any benefits claimants get money given to them for food, so why would any of them be using food banks when the overwhelming vast majority of benefits claimants do not???



And before you start going on about the users being workers who are low paid etc, they will already getting the minimum wage labour brought in and working tax credits too when needed, also brought in by labour, so why are only some of these people, a tiny minority, using food banks when all The other vast majority getting the same money are not..????





Who exactly are these food bank users...???


And why...???




My mate I mentioned before who isn't working at the moment, continually fails to turn up on time for job centre appointments, fails to complete his job search properly, and fails to attend any courses he is referred to........ he has undergone several sanctions because of this, has had numerous hardship payments because of having no money and has been referred to a food bank with a voucher one time only which he didn't bother using.




Although he is a good and long friend of mine, his situation is all of his own doing and he only has himself to blame.



Question remains, who are these food bank users...???



Either they are working as we keep being told, and should have their own money plus any top ups through tax credits etc so should have enough for food etc...

Or they are not working and will be getting hand outs of benefit money for food etc....



Or what....???

Sassy wrote:Well, the charities involved did a very big investigation into it and said that it was the benefits system that was to blame, so I think they are the ones with the most information.

Of course they did.

Charities are not perfect angelic constructs above human failings. They are at heart as human as the big multi national corporations and these days individuals get fame and fortune from them. Or in other words charities have to justify their own existence.

 

Sassy wrote: 

Do you know of any charity that has ever achieved its stated aim and closed up job done? Or do you find that if a charity actually does achieve its end (enough funds for the church roof or to buy the baby incubator) that it promptly announces a new target (replacing pews or equipping an ambulance to transport premature babies) and carries on with the same people doing the same thing.

The brutal fact is that if the "need" for food banks disappeared tomorrow there would be several employees out of wage paying jobs and an awful lot of happy fulfilled volunteers would become bored unfulfilled ordinary people again at least until they find something else to volunteer for.

There is more to life than money and a significant number of people define themselves by the unpaid work they do - and they will protect that unpaid work just as vigorously as paid employees will try and protect their jobs.

The charities will do studies proving that it is government cuts causing the entire problem, and the government will do studies proving that the entire problem is dishonest wasters spending their money wastefully. Anyone actually looking at the thing neutrally will note that in the majority of cases benefits hold ups are not because of the cuts but an imperfect claim procedure easily misunderstood, that the majority of benefits sanctions are reasonable, and that the majority of people struggling to manage their finances have not deliberately wasted money but simply made all too human mistakes. Then will also measure income in terms of how many loaves of bread it will buy and consider that in comparison to how many loaves of bread income in the past would buy and work out that at times in the past people were financially worse off than they are now with no food banks - and will consider how people used to manage with them.

The only real conclusion is that (as I am repeating ad nauseum) the subject is a complex issue with many different roots and that all attempts to blame a single group for it are doomed to failure.

sphinx wrote:

Sassy wrote:Well, the charities involved did a very big investigation into it and said that it was the benefits system that was to blame, so I think they are the ones with the most information.

Of course they did.  

Charities are not perfect angelic constructs above human failings.  They are at heart as human as the big multi national corporations and these days individuals get fame and fortune from them.  Or in other words charities have to justify their own existence.

Thanks for that Sphinx but what you have said there doesn't really take us forward in explaining why the numbers have rocketed up as shown in this graph.



Something must have happened especially for the figures in the last few columns to rise so dramatically.

Any idea?