Can a 3 year old deliberately self harm?

sphinx wrote:Do you mean recognize in that they have been told or recognize as in understanding what harm is?

sphinx wrote:I mean to self harm with paracetamol rather than attempt to kill yourself with them is a rather fine line and not even all adults are aware of it. I have known of someone who took an overdose in what they openly admitted was a self harming cry for help and they did not intend to actually die - which is what they did in a great deal of pain a couple of days later due to the fact that they had destroyed their liver.  They thought as do quite a few people that they would swallow all the tablets go to sleep and never wake up - well they woke up the next morning and decided they better tell the doctor what they had done by which time their only chance was a transplant and that did not turn up.

Didge wrote:

sphinx wrote:Do you mean recognize in that they have been told or recognize as in understanding what harm is?

If a child can understand something is harmful and then takes it, then it would be self harm.
So if they have been told it is dangerous and take this, then it would be self harm, also I guess there is more to this than the points only given onto the story

sphinx wrote:

Didge wrote:


If a child can understand something is harmful and then takes it, then it would be self harm.
So if they have been told it is dangerous and take this, then it would be self harm, also I guess there is more to this than the points only given onto the story

I am not convinced 3 year olds do understand harmful.  They understand pain, they understand an adult not wanting them to do something by telling them it will bring pain but "harm" is a more difficult concept.

Or to look at it another way how many parents tell their children that they cannot eat the whole chocolate cake because it is bad for them, it will harm them (which it very well may do in the long term) - if such a child manages to sneak into a position where they can eat the whole chocolate cake would you say they are deliberately self harming?

Didge wrote:

sphinx wrote:I mean to self harm with paracetamol rather than attempt to kill yourself with them is a rather fine line and not even all adults are aware of it. I have known of someone who took an overdose in what they openly admitted was a self harming cry for help and they did not intend to actually die - which is what they did in a great deal of pain a couple of days later due to the fact that they had destroyed their liver.  They thought as do quite a few people that they would swallow all the tablets go to sleep and never wake up - well they woke up the next morning and decided they better tell the doctor what they had done by which time their only chance was a transplant and that did not turn up.

But sphinx you are gauging this on your own feelings not knowing any details of the actual case, where there maybe far more to this, where clearly it has been deemed self harm for a reason. Self harm does not always mean trying to kill yourself either. The child could be well aware it is not good for him and harm him, but not be aware it could kill him.

Didge wrote:

sphinx wrote:

I am not convinced 3 year olds do understand harmful.  They understand pain, they understand an adult not wanting them to do something by telling them it will bring pain but "harm" is a more difficult concept.

Or to look at it another way how many parents tell their children that they cannot eat the whole chocolate cake because it is bad for them, it will harm them (which it very well may do in the long term) - if such a child manages to sneak into a position where they can eat the whole chocolate cake would you say they are deliberately self harming?

Without the full details you are not in a position to make such a call, again it is off only your own instincts

sphinx wrote:

Didge wrote:


But sphinx you are gauging this on your own feelings not knowing any details of the actual case, where there maybe far more to this, where clearly it has been deemed self harm for a reason. Self harm does not always mean trying to kill yourself either. The child could be well aware it is not good for him and harm him, but not be aware it could kill him.

No I am trying to discuss whether a three year old has the mental development to understand the concept of self harm - which almost always means not trying to kill yourself - the whole point of self harm is to cause damage but still live - a person slicing their arm is not trying to kill themselves - they are trying to hurt themselves in a way which will heal.

Will a three year old know the difference between paracetamol being not good for them and being harmful and not brushing their teeth being not good for them and being harmful.

sphinx wrote:So can you please present me with the academic texts providing the theory and evidence behind the ability to understand this concept at such a young age.

sphinx wrote:Why do qualifications have some relevance to my ability to understand academic texts?

Or do you think only people who already have qualifications should be allowed to have opinions on learned subjects?

sphinx wrote:So can you please present me with the academic texts providing the theory and evidence behind the ability to understand this concept at such a young age.

Didge wrote:

sphinx wrote:So can you please present me with the academic texts providing the theory and evidence behind the ability to understand this concept at such a young age.

Emerging, controversial research suggests children as young as 3 years of age can meet the clinical criteria for major depressive disorder (MDD).

And researchers are discovering that depressed children demonstrate brain activation patterns very similar to those seen in adults diagnosed with the disorder.

Child psychiatrist Dr. Joan Luby, director of the early emotional development program at Washington University in St. Louis, has been studying preschool depression for almost two decades. Her clinical experience, she said, contradicts the view of many developmental psychologists that young children do not have the emotional or cognitive competence to experience depression.


http://psychcentral.com/news/2011/06/03/diagnosed-with-depression-at-3-years-old/26667.html

sphinx wrote:Try ethics then and development of morals as theory then.

sphinx wrote:

Didge wrote:

Emerging, controversial research suggests children as young as 3 years of age can meet the clinical criteria for major depressive disorder (MDD).

And researchers are discovering that depressed children demonstrate brain activation patterns very similar to those seen in adults diagnosed with the disorder.

Child psychiatrist Dr. Joan Luby, director of the early emotional development program at Washington University in St. Louis, has been studying preschool depression for almost two decades. Her clinical experience, she said, contradicts the view of many developmental psychologists that young children do not have the emotional or cognitive competence to experience depression.


http://psychcentral.com/news/2011/06/03/diagnosed-with-depression-at-3-years-old/26667.html

So are you now claiming self harm is directly related to depression?  Or that depression in all forms is unacceptable?

sphinx wrote:Pretty much what I think when trying to deal with people that think the 2 are linked.

I know real life does not count but I have known too many people with depression who do not self harm and people who self harm who are not depressed to give them any more of a link than I do to roast chicken dinners and icecream puddings.

sphinx wrote:Isnt it you who normally squawks about people making the mistake of fallacy of association?

Just because it is believe in some cases one of the links for self harm is depression does not make it automatically follow on that research specifically related to depression is relevant to self harm.

Now try going back to development of moral thinking in the child.