Has Britain changed for the better? 1945-2013 scenarios

Tesstacious wrote:Brilliant - and not so far fetched!  I specially liked the bit about taking apart the fireworks - my own son and his mates did this; didn't blow up any wasps' nests but did remove his eyebrows!  How times change, and how did this ridiculous nonsense take such a hold?

eddie wrote:                      SCHOOL-1945 vs. 2013




Scenario : Johnny and Mark get into a fight after school.

1945 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up best friends.

2013 - Police called, and they arrest Johnny and Mark. Charge them with assault, both expelled even though Johnny started it. Both children go to anger management programmes for 3 months. School governors hold meeting to implement bullying prevention programmes.




Scenario : Robbie disruptive in Class - other students cannot work.

1945 - Robbie sent to the office and given six of the best by the Principal. Returns to class, sits still and does not disrupt class again.

2013 - Robbie given huge doses of Ritalin. Becomes a zombie. Tested for ADHD - result deemed to be positive. Robbie's parents get fortnightly disability payments and school gets extra funding from government because Robbie has a disability.





Scenario : Billy breaks a window in his neighbour's car and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt.

1945 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to college, and becomes a successful businessman.

2013 - Billy's dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy removed to foster care; joins a gang; ends up in jail.




Scenario : Mark gets a headache and takes some aspirin to school.

1945 - Mark gets glass of water from Principal to take aspirin with. Passes exams, becomes a solicitor.

2013 - Police called, car searched for drugs and weapons. Mark expelled from school for drug taking. Ends up as a drop out.




Scenario : Johnny takes apart leftover fireworks from Bonfire Night, puts them in a paint tin & blows up a wasp's nest.

1945 - Wasps die.

2013 - Police & Anti-Terrorism Squad called. Johnny charged with domestic terrorism, investigate parents, siblings removed from home, computers confiscated. Johnny's Dad goes on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly in an airplane again.




Scenario : Johnny falls over while running during morning break and scrapes his knee. He is found crying by his teacher, Mary. She hugs him to comfort him.

1945 - In a short time, Johnny feels better and goes on playing footie. No damage done.

2013 - Mary is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job. She faces 3 years in prison. Johnny undergoes 5 years of therapy and ends up gay.




Ok so far-fetched but possibly not so far-fetched in some cases??

Eilzel wrote:

eddie wrote:                      SCHOOL-1945 vs. 2013




Scenario : Johnny and Mark get into a fight after school.

1945 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up best friends.

2013 - Police called, and they arrest Johnny and Mark. Charge them with assault, both expelled even though Johnny started it. Both children go to anger management programmes for 3 months. School governors hold meeting to implement bullying prevention programmes.




Scenario : Robbie disruptive in Class - other students cannot work.

1945 - Robbie sent to the office and given six of the best by the Principal. Returns to class, sits still and does not disrupt class again.

2013 - Robbie given huge doses of Ritalin. Becomes a zombie. Tested for ADHD - result deemed to be positive. Robbie's parents get fortnightly disability payments and school gets extra funding from government because Robbie has a disability.





Scenario : Billy breaks a window in his neighbour's car and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt.

1945 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to college, and becomes a successful businessman.

2013 - Billy's dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy removed to foster care; joins a gang; ends up in jail.




Scenario : Mark gets a headache and takes some aspirin to school.

1945 - Mark gets glass of water from Principal to take aspirin with. Passes exams, becomes a solicitor.

2013 - Police called, car searched for drugs and weapons. Mark expelled from school for drug taking. Ends up as a drop out.




Scenario : Johnny takes apart leftover fireworks from Bonfire Night, puts them in a paint tin & blows up a wasp's nest.

1945 - Wasps die.

2013 - Police & Anti-Terrorism Squad called. Johnny charged with domestic terrorism, investigate parents, siblings removed from home, computers confiscated. Johnny's Dad goes on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly in an airplane again.




Scenario : Johnny falls over while running during morning break and scrapes his knee. He is found crying by his teacher, Mary. She hugs him to comfort him.

1945 - In a short time, Johnny feels better and goes on playing footie. No damage done.

2013 - Mary is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job. She faces 3 years in prison. Johnny undergoes 5 years of therapy and ends up gay.




Ok so far-fetched but possibly not so far-fetched in some cases??

You just know I'm not going to be one to nod along with this   

1, But some kids simply got battered; ended up insecure and pushed around all their lives. The bullies remain bullies forever.

2. Sometimes however teachers just went overboard and exercised ridiculous levels of abuse against children which were uncalled for and left some pupils scarred both emotionally and physically.

3. While another kids dad whipped him with the belt out of pure frustration but the boy never cared telling anyone cause no one would believe him anyway- if he got whipped he MUST have done something wrong right? Kid ends up resenting father.

4. This is equally ridiculous but can't think an equally ridiculous counter haha.

5. Kids fire fireworks at people; at pets; at buildings; the fireworks blow up in their faces causing permanent injury- and society wonders how this could happen   

6. Kids are sexually abused but can't tell anyone; they never can; and go to the grave often without ever being able to share the suffering that pained them. Meanwhile actual gay kids are forced to keep shtum through fear of the law and subject to social humiliation and suspicion.

I know all those above are ridiculous and intended to be. But the reason I don't honestly see the funny side is because shit like that is designed to give the impression EVERY social change is a bad thing and we would do better to just wind the clocks right back to a time when everything was 'perfect'. It wasn't perfect; their were problems people just didn't want to know about them so pretended they didn't exist; the servile wife, the abusive teacher, the abused son or daughter, the closeted gay, the black second-class citizens etc- things changed for a reason. We may have problems now but they had problems then too.

Ben_Reilly wrote:Can anybody cite an instance in which any of the ridiculous scenarios happened?

Eilzel wrote:You know I saw you had answered and just knew it would be some boring, pointless comment that contributes nothing-you're good at them you know...

Tesstacious wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Can anybody cite an instance in which any of the ridiculous scenarios happened?

We don't have to - wouldn't have time anyway, there'd be too many instances.  Try reading the papers, watching the news, going into a school..... plenty there.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Tesstacious wrote:
We don't have to - wouldn't have time anyway, there'd be too many instances.  Try reading the papers, watching the news, going into a school..... plenty there.

I didn't ask for all of them, just one.

Sassy wrote:Well, I was born in 1945, and this total tosh.   London was a complete mess, bomb damage everywhere.   My grandparents lived in a council flat in Wandsworth, one of many.   There was a tiny toilet by the front door, a coal hod in the tiny hall, the kitchen was 8x6 and had a bath against one wall with a geyser to heat the water.   The water from the geyser had to be poured into a bucket emptied into the kitchen sink to wash, it was the only basin.

There was terrible smog, if you think today's is bad, you should have lived in the early 50s.

Public transport outside of the cities was negligible, if you lived in the country, your way of getting to the nearest town were very few and far between and unless you had a car, which was considered a total luxury.   You had to walk down the street to go to the phonebox, because not many people had a phone.   We didn't get a TV until about 1955, although I used to love the radio.

TB was rife, my Mum got it and was in hospital for 2 years and not allowed to see my brother and myself in case we got it, I had friends who died from diptheria and measles.   Two of my cousins got polio and one ended up in an iron lung.   Education ended for many at 14, there was asbestos floating round factories which they knew about but never bothered to tell anyone, people were dying everyday from industrial accidents, I could go on all day.

I think someone not only has they rose coloured specs on, they have added filters.

Sassy wrote:Well, I was born in 1945, and this total tosh.   London was a complete mess, bomb damage everywhere.   My grandparents lived in a council flat in Wandsworth, one of many.   There was a tiny toilet by the front door, a coal hod in the tiny hall, the kitchen was 8x6 and had a bath against one wall with a geyser to heat the water.   The water from the geyser had to be poured into a bucket emptied into the kitchen sink to wash, it was the only basin.

There was terrible smog, if you think today's is bad, you should have lived in the early 50s.

Public transport outside of the cities was negligible, if you lived in the country, your way of getting to the nearest town were very few and far between and unless you had a car, which was considered a total luxury.   You had to walk down the street to go to the phonebox, because not many people had a phone.   We didn't get a TV until about 1955, although I used to love the radio.

TB was rife, my Mum got it and was in hospital for 2 years and not allowed to see my brother and myself in case we got it, I had friends who died from diptheria and measles.   Two of my cousins got polio and one ended up in an iron lung.   Education ended for many at 14, there was asbestos floating round factories which they knew about but never bothered to tell anyone, people were dying everyday from industrial accidents, I could go on all day.

I think someone not only has they rose coloured specs on, they have added filters.

Tesstacious wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

I didn't ask for all of them, just one.

Okay - quick google...

"A 12 year-old boy was arrested at Tasker Milward School in Haverfordwest yesterday (Thursday) following a disturbance on the school site.

A spokesman for Dyfed-Powys Police said they had received a call at about 1.50pm of “an ongoing incident” at the school.  The spokesman added: “Two children had attended the site, and were causing a disturbance and being abusive therefore police assistance was requested.

“A 12 year-old boy was arrested on suspicion of criminal damage and section 5 Public Order Act, and has now been bailed pending further enquiries.  A 13 year old girl was also taken from the scene by officers.”   Social media postings later suggested that a knife was involved but police said that no weapons were involved in the incident.

http://www.westerntelegraph.co.uk/news/10928786.Boy__12__arrested_after_disturbance_at_Tasker_Milward_School/

So basically a 12 yr old boy and 13 yr old girl having a ruck.  Blown out of all proportion.

Tesstacious wrote:

Tesstacious wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

I didn't ask for all of them, just one.

Okay - quick google...

"A 12 year-old boy was arrested at Tasker Milward School in Haverfordwest yesterday (Thursday) following a disturbance on the school site.

A spokesman for Dyfed-Powys Police said they had received a call at about 1.50pm of “an ongoing incident” at the school.  The spokesman added: “Two children had attended the site, and were causing a disturbance and being abusive therefore police assistance was requested.

“A 12 year-old boy was arrested on suspicion of criminal damage and section 5 Public Order Act, and has now been bailed pending further enquiries.  A 13 year old girl was also taken from the scene by officers.”   Social media postings later suggested that a knife was involved but police said that no weapons were involved in the incident.

http://www.westerntelegraph.co.uk/news/10928786.Boy__12__arrested_after_disturbance_at_Tasker_Milward_School/

So basically a 12 yr old boy and 13 yr old girl having a ruck.  Blown out of all proportion.

Sassy wrote:Well, we will have to agree to disagree, because although some things have gone OTT, I think the number of people who died or were badly injured at work, etc, the children who died from diseases that are now preventable, the children who suffered abuse and were never believed etc makes the OTT of today look like a picnic.

I would rather, much rather, they were a bit OTT than the terrible things that went on then, that people took for granted and never even thought to question.   As for communities, I have a community, I had one where I used to live, my daughter lives in a very close knit community in a very diverse neighbourhood.   Go back to what was going on in 1945, no way.

Ben_Reilly wrote:Can anybody cite an instance in which any of the ridiculous scenarios happened?

Nems wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Can anybody cite an instance in which any of the ridiculous scenarios happened?

When my son was at primary he fell and was very distressed, when I went to collect him Mrs Haig apologised to me, I asked her whatever for and she told me my boy was so distressed without thinking she gave him a hug. It was against the rules to hug a child and so she had to tell me.
I told her the only problem I would have had would be with a teacher who can stand by an upset child and not want to comfort that child.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Nems wrote:

When my son was at primary he fell and was very distressed, when I went to collect him Mrs Haig apologised to me, I asked her whatever for and she told me my boy was so distressed without thinking she gave him a hug. It was against the rules to hug a child and so she had to tell me.
I told her the only problem I would have had would be with a teacher who can stand by an upset child and not want to comfort that child.

OK, but one ill advised rule doesn't prove that entire list.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Nems wrote:

When my son was at primary he fell and was very distressed, when I went to collect him Mrs Haig apologised to me, I asked her whatever for and she told me my boy was so distressed without thinking she gave him a hug. It was against the rules to hug a child and so she had to tell me.
I told her the only problem I would have had would be with a teacher who can stand by an upset child and not want to comfort that child.

OK, but one ill advised rule doesn't prove that entire list.

Nems wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Nems wrote:

When my son was at primary he fell and was very distressed, when I went to collect him Mrs Haig apologised to me, I asked her whatever for and she told me my boy was so distressed without thinking she gave him a hug. It was against the rules to hug a child and so she had to tell me.
I told her the only problem I would have had would be with a teacher who can stand by an upset child and not want to comfort that child.

OK, but one ill advised rule doesn't prove that entire list.

You asked someone to cite an incident - I did

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Nems wrote:

You asked someone to cite an incident - I did

Nobody was actually hurt in the incident you cited -- but in the original list, people were expelled, arrested, jailed, forced into anger management, forced onto powerful drugs, etc. No comparison and I'm surprised you don't see that.

Eilzel wrote:

Sassy wrote:Well, we will have to agree to disagree, because although some things have gone OTT, I think the number of people who died or were badly injured at work, etc, the children who died from diseases that are now preventable, the children who suffered abuse and were never believed etc makes the OTT of today look like a picnic.

I would rather, much rather, they were a bit OTT than the terrible things that went on then, that people took for granted and never even thought to question.   As for communities, I have a community, I had one where I used to live, my daughter lives in a very close knit community in a very diverse neighbourhood.   Go back to what was going on in 1945, no way.

I (obviously) wasn't around in the 40s/50s. But I consider the fact I am gay and look back on how different things may have been with that in mind.

If I considered acting on my feelings I could be jailed.
I could never be in a 'real' marriage, but may have ended up in a sham one ruining my life and that of some poor girl.
My Dad would have rejected me (I know this, because my Dad was incredibly homophobic until only around 10 years ago when his attitude started to change).
My mixed race relationship would have shunned by society.
No relationship I ever had would have been taken seriously, and in any case, a relationship would have been much harder to come about since every gay person would have been very secret about it and I'm not camp at all so no one would ever know.
I could be fired from a job if my employer found out I was gay.

Admittedly this position applies only to gay people then and now; but similar lists could be applied to black people or people of other races; women; children; etc.

Nems wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Nems wrote:

You asked someone to cite an incident - I did

Nobody was actually hurt in the incident you cited -- but in the original list, people were expelled, arrested, jailed, forced into anger management, forced onto powerful drugs, etc. No comparison and I'm surprised you don't see that.

If I had chosen to pursue a complaint against the teacher I could have done. Kinell!

sphinx wrote:However the fact that the girl was treated abhorrently did mean that less young girls made that mistake.

The fact that young single female getting pregnant is no longer even considered a mistake yet alone treated abhorrently means more young females are doing so which means more babies born into less than ideal lives.

Yes I know some single mums do a cracking job - that does not make the lives of the children of the many who do not any better

eddie wrote:The whole point is, is that people have become scared to be themselves ie teachers and policeman.

My sons teacher rang me and told me he was being too chatty in class.
I said "well if he doesn't stop, kick his arse out of the classroom or stick him in detention!"

You know what she said?
"Oh right, is that ok with you?"

  

I said "erm yes?? Aren't you the teacher? It's your classroom do as you see fit!"

She told me that some parents create havoc when their children are made to have detention for talking....the teacher told me "You've no idea how hard it is sometimes  to get parents on our side!"

That is something very new to modern Britain!

victorisnotamused wrote:and then again sass i suppose its quite fair that should I be the unlucky motorist who flattens some brain dead pillock on his bike at 1 in the morning because he hasnt got lights OR light coloured clothes I WILL be blamed....its automatic, in fact I understand its POLICY to blame the motorist........

Eilzel wrote:

eddie wrote:The whole point is, is that people have become scared to be themselves ie teachers and policeman.

My sons teacher rang me and told me he was being too chatty in class.
I said "well if he doesn't stop, kick his arse out of the classroom or stick him in detention!"

You know what she said?
"Oh right, is that ok with you?"

  

I said "erm yes?? Aren't you the teacher? It's your classroom do as you see fit!"

She told me that some parents create havoc when their children are made to have detention for talking....the teacher told me "You've no idea how hard it is sometimes  to get parents on our side!"

That is something very new to modern Britain!

I understand 'the whole point' Eds. But the danger here is the painting of the past as a model of how society should have remained; when as didge and sass and I have shown you could easily do a list the other way. I remember you posting that story and it is silly and no one denies things have got silly in schools in many areas- but it is the direct of comparison with a glorious past that never existed we are objecting to.

eddie wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

I understand 'the whole point' Eds. But the danger here is the painting of the past as a model of how society should have remained; when as didge and sass and I have shown you could easily do a list the other way. I remember you posting that story and it is silly and no one denies things have got silly in schools in many areas- but it is the direct of comparison with a glorious past that never existed we are objecting to.

Oh I know!! I didn't think that times past were any better tbh. You can find good and bad in all times.

Sassy wrote:

sphinx wrote:However the fact that the girl was treated abhorrently did mean that less young girls made that mistake.

The fact that young single female getting pregnant is no longer even considered a mistake yet alone treated abhorrently means more young females are doing so which means more babies born into less than ideal lives.

Yes I know some single mums do a cracking job - that does not make the lives of the children of the many who do not any better

Wrong, that's a myth.   What happened was they went to the women down the street who used a knitting needle and many of them died, or they went to mother and baby homes and had their babes taken from them.   Many of them spent years trying to find the babies they they weren't allowed to keep and were traumatised for life.   That's why people like the Magdelene Sisters got away with what they did.

How can anyone think that is better?

victorisnotamused wrote:No sassy what you are prepared to is is swap a new class of victim for an old one...
would you be so blase if it was your OH that was being led away to start 3 yrs for "death by dangerous driving" under those circumstances...Personally I recon you'd be raising Cain

sphinx wrote:

Sassy wrote:

Wrong, that's a myth.   What happened was they went to the women down the street who used a knitting needle and many of them died, or they went to mother and baby homes and had their babes taken from them.   Many of them spent years trying to find the babies they they weren't allowed to keep and were traumatised for life.   That's why people like the Magdelene Sisters got away with what they did.

How can anyone think that is better?

No the myth is that it did not happen at all

The reality is it was less common.

I have seen enough children who would have had far better lives if they had been taken from their birth mothers and put up for adoption even allowing for the problems that come with adoption.  To be honest some of the mothers would have had better lives as well.

sphinx wrote:

Sassy wrote:

Wrong, that's a myth.   What happened was they went to the women down the street who used a knitting needle and many of them died, or they went to mother and baby homes and had their babes taken from them.   Many of them spent years trying to find the babies they they weren't allowed to keep and were traumatised for life.   That's why people like the Magdelene Sisters got away with what they did.

How can anyone think that is better?

No the myth is that it did not happen at all

The reality is it was less common.

I have seen enough children who would have had far better lives if they had been taken from their birth mothers and put up for adoption even allowing for the problems that come with adoption.  To be honest some of the mothers would have had better lives as well.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Nems wrote:

If I had chosen to pursue a complaint against the teacher I could have done. Kinell!

\

And are you sure that if you had complained, the teacher would be sacked and end up in a Muslim street gang, your son would be put into five years of therapy and "end up gay," you'd be shot full of Ritalin and forced to eat Halal veal, etc.?

Sassy wrote:

sphinx wrote:

No the myth is that it did not happen at all

The reality is it was less common.

I have seen enough children who would have had far better lives if they had been taken from their birth mothers and put up for adoption even allowing for the problems that come with adoption.  To be honest some of the mothers would have had better lives as well.

I'm saying nothing after that, I'm too appalled.

sphinx wrote:

Sassy wrote:

I'm saying nothing after that, I'm too appalled.

What appals you?  That there are children who would have suffered less if removed from their birth mothers and been adopted or that I have spoken of it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_pregnancy_and_sexual_health_in_the_United_Kingdom wrote:
Births to teenagers increased during the 1960s and peaked in 1971 at 50.6 per thousand of the population. Since 1971 they have gradually fallen to their lowest level since the mid Fifties. The proportion occurring outside marriage has increased from around one in six in the 1950s to nine in every ten in 2006. Teenage abortion rates are currently at their highest rate since legalisation in 1968. Although the number of conceptions are falling the proportion ending in abortion has increased over the last ten years.