I have done my back in.

Without doing any drastic exercise, fun-loving frolics, sudden jerky movement, or even a sneeze, I have managed to crick my back....and I am in agony.

Syl wrote:Without doing any drastic exercise, fun-loving frolics, sudden jerky movement, or even a sneeze, I have managed to crick my back....and I am in agony.

did you just wake up with it?

back pain is awful

Try eating some biscuits and gravy.

gelico wrote:

Syl wrote:Without doing any drastic exercise, fun-loving frolics, sudden jerky movement, or even a sneeze, I have managed to crick my back....and I am in agony.

did you just wake up with it?

back pain is awful

I did. I have done this before, needed Physio a couple of times, but not for years.

Yeah, it's awful, I am feeling quite sorry for myself.


It'll probably ease off in a few days though.

Maddog wrote:Try eating some biscuits and gravy.  

Keep your disgusting concoctions (biscuits with gravy ) out of my 'seeking sympathy thread'....IF you don't mind.

Hop up and dance to this. It will make you feel better.

Ignore it, or affirmatively tell it to go away and it will disappear in a few minutes. I used to endure 2-3 weeks of pain before I visited a pain specialist, who told me what was going on.

It's a somatic pain cycle. Your body instinctively protects certain parts, of which your spine is the most important because it carries most of the bodies' nerves. It normally happens this way: you have a slightly pinched nerve, which in any other part of the body would normally result in a momentary irritation, which goes away in an instant. You hardly notice.

But it's your spine, and your autonomic nervous system (ANS--the somatic side) senses that your spine is in danger. It tells your lateral muscles (two large muscles on each side of the spine) to contract in order to provide the spine with compression rigidity. Now, your instant of pinch-irritation becomes a prolonged, excruciating pinch. Of course, your spine again immediately signals to the ANS that it is being hurt, and again the ANS signals the laterals to pinch down. And so it goes, on and on, until your body gets bored in about 2 - 3 weeks.

To speed it up, get bored sooner. It’s very simple. I usually sit down and have a mental conversation with my ANS: Fogettaboutit! I've got places to go and people to see. Consciously relax your lateral muscles and release the pinched nerve. The residual pain goes away in about 2-3 seconds, and this stops it triggering the ANS and the somatic pain cycle. You will have a pain memory for about 20-minutes. Do not confuse the pain memory with the pain itself. If you concentrate on your interdiction, in the way I have described, it will stop triggering the ANS and you will break the somatic pain cycle.

Pain is only a signaling device, to tell your cognitive brain that something is wrong down in the body. Your nervous system will really listen to you, if it sees you're on the same wave length. You’ve just gotta gain its trust.

There you go Syl. Just command your back to stop hurting.

The alternative is shock therapy , whereby the doctor sends electricity through the lateral muscles (second largest in body - it takes a lot) and literally fatigues them until they can’t contract anymore.

I've been through that, too, and although it does break the pain cycle, I wouldn’t recommend it.  You might end up punching your doctor.

I slipped a disc playing cricket about 30 years ago. Bent over suddenly  to pick up the ball, felt a sickening pain and I was locked, doubled over.
Hospital job that evening , put in traction for 3 days and x-rayed and osteopathed back into some sort of alignment.
30 years on , I am still careful with  my back, it always feels fragile and suspect.
When I play golf, I ALWAYS wear a neoprene  support, which is a tremendous  help.

I tried the stern talking to that Quill recommended...I thought it had worked, but then I moved and realised it hadn't.

When I do my back in like this, I always get a band of pain across my abdomen too....I think all the nerves or muscles come out in sympathy.
If it doesn't ease off in a few days I will be visiting the physio again.

Syl wrote:I tried the stern talking to that Quill recommended...I thought it had worked, but then I moved and realised it hadn't.

When I do my back in like this, I always get a band of pain across my abdomen too....I think all the nerves or muscles come out in sympathy.
If it doesn't ease off in a few days I will be visiting the physio again.

Maybe your back speaks a different language and there's a communication barrier?

Syl, I sympathise fully. I get that now and again, worse than anytime this time last year, getting out of bed or chair was like being punched in my lower back everytime, the pain was intense.
Ended up walking sort of sideways to try and keep the weight off the offending side. I feel for you, its awful.

Maddog wrote:

Syl wrote:I tried the stern talking to that Quill recommended...I thought it had worked, but then I moved and realised it hadn't.

When I do my back in like this, I always get a band of pain across my abdomen too....I think all the nerves or muscles come out in sympathy.
If it doesn't ease off in a few days I will be visiting the physio again.

Maybe your back speaks a different language and there's a communication barrier?

There's a bit of truth to that ^, Syl. It takes perseverance before the ANS believes/understands you. The ANS is used to making your heart beat, breathing, eyes blink, and bringing your arms forward to catch a fall. All automatic things. It’s not used to your cognitive mind having a direct conversation.

You have to communicate by giving it confidence that it works, and that is as much feeling as it is words.

Vintage wrote:Syl, I sympathise fully. I get that now and again, worse than anytime this time last year, getting out of bed or chair was like being punched in my lower back everytime, the pain was intense.
Ended up walking sort of sideways to try and keep the weight off the offending side. I feel for you, its awful.

Thanks Vintage.
It can happen to anyone, suddenly.
A physotherapist told me once, always avoid bending and twisting at the same time, he said that movement was one of the likeliest actions to put ones back out.

Syl wrote:

Vintage wrote:Syl, I sympathise fully. I get that now and again, worse than anytime this time last year, getting out of bed or chair was like being punched in my lower back everytime, the pain was intense.
Ended up walking sort of sideways to try and keep the weight off the offending side. I feel for you, its awful.

Thanks Vintage.
It can happen to anyone, suddenly.
A physotherapist told me once, always avoid bending and twisting at the same time, he said that movement was one of the likeliest actions to put ones back out.

Do you have a foam roller?

That sometimes works on my lower back.

Of course in the UK, it's probably called a biscuit roller or some nonsense.


https://www.amazon.com/foam-roller/s?k=foam+roller

Maddog wrote:Of course in the UK, it's probably called a biscuit roller or some nonsense.


https://www.amazon.com/foam-roller/s?k=foam+roller

Do you mean a sconeroll?

Syl wrote:

Maddog wrote:Of course in the UK, it's probably called a biscuit roller or some nonsense.


https://www.amazon.com/foam-roller/s?k=foam+roller

Do you mean a sconeroll?

I snorted!!!

And I'm not a snorter.

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Maybe your back speaks a different language and there's a communication barrier?

There's a bit of truth to that ^, Syl.  It takes perseverance before the ANS believes/understands you.  The ANS is used to making your heart beat, breathing, eyes blink, and bringing your arms forward to catch a fall.  All automatic things.  It’s not used to your cognitive mind having a direct conversation.

You have to communicate by giving it confidence that it works, and that is as much feeling as it is words.

There is certainly something in what you are saying Quill, the mind can control pain sometimes..
It's not working for me yet.....I obviously need more practice.

It's not really the mind controlling the pain. There is some process to it. What the mind does is interrupt a mind-to body pain-to mind, etc., cycle.

It's mind-on-mind, so it's not exactly mind over matter.

Original Quill wrote:It's not really the mind controlling the pain.  There is some process to it.  What the mind does is interrupt a mind-to body pain-to mind, etc.,  cycle.

It's mind-on-mind, so it's not exactly mind over matter.

OK...if you say so.

Thinking about it though, the mind, or the brain does control a lot of the pain we feel.

Take heartache, we have probably all felt it, it's certainly not caused by a broken bone or a pulled muscle, there is no physical damage at all, it's all in the mind, but it hurts a ... lot.

I think pain is making me go all philosophical.

Original Quill wrote:Ignore it, or affirmatively tell it to go away and it will disappear in a few minutes.  I used to endure 2-3 weeks of pain before I visited a pain specialist, who told me what was going on.

It's a somatic pain cycle.  Your body instinctively protects certain parts, of which your spine is the most important because it carries most of the bodies' nerves.  It normally happens this way: you have a slightly pinched nerve, which in any other part of the body would normally result in a momentary irritation, which goes away in an instant.  You hardly notice.

But it's your spine, and your autonomic nervous system (ANS--the somatic side) senses that your spine is in danger.  It tells your lateral muscles (two large muscles on each side of the spine) to contract in order to provide the spine with compression rigidity.  Now, your instant of pinch-irritation becomes a prolonged, excruciating pinch.  Of course, your spine again immediately signals to the ANS that it is being hurt, and again the ANS signals the laterals to pinch down.  And so it goes, on and on, until your body gets bored in about 2 - 3 weeks.

To speed it up, get bored sooner.  It’s very simple.  I usually sit down and have a mental conversation with my ANS: Fogettaboutit!  I've got places to go and people to see.  Consciously relax your lateral muscles and release the pinched nerve.  The residual pain goes away in about 2-3 seconds, and this stops it triggering the ANS and the somatic pain cycle.  You will have a pain memory for about 20-minutes.  Do not confuse the pain memory with the pain itself.   If you concentrate on your interdiction, in the way I have described, it will stop triggering the ANS and you will break the somatic pain cycle.

Pain is only a signaling device, to tell your cognitive brain that something is wrong down in the body.  Your nervous system will really listen to you, if it sees you're on the same wave length.  You’ve just gotta gain its trust.

Even shouting and swearing at the severe pain in my shoulder that I’m currently suffering doesn’t work for me, matey. All I get in return is a little voice saying “it’s your own friggin’ fault, you silly old git. Eighty two-year-olds shouldn’t still be using a chainsaw and sawing trees down!”

The body may be ageing but the mind forgets it is.

My OH is only a decade younger than you Fred, and he built an elevated decking last year after watching how the Alaskan Bush people on TV build stuff. He did it on his own too.

Hope the back is on the mend.


It is said that one of the main causes of back trouble is bed related...

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Original Quill wrote:Ignore it, or affirmatively tell it to go away and it will disappear in a few minutes.  I used to endure 2-3 weeks of pain before I visited a pain specialist, who told me what was going on.

It's a somatic pain cycle.  Your body instinctively protects certain parts, of which your spine is the most important because it carries most of the bodies' nerves.  It normally happens this way: you have a slightly pinched nerve, which in any other part of the body would normally result in a momentary irritation, which goes away in an instant.  You hardly notice.

But it's your spine, and your autonomic nervous system (ANS--the somatic side) senses that your spine is in danger.  It tells your lateral muscles (two large muscles on each side of the spine) to contract in order to provide the spine with compression rigidity.  Now, your instant of pinch-irritation becomes a prolonged, excruciating pinch.  Of course, your spine again immediately signals to the ANS that it is being hurt, and again the ANS signals the laterals to pinch down.  And so it goes, on and on, until your body gets bored in about 2 - 3 weeks.

To speed it up, get bored sooner.  It’s very simple.  I usually sit down and have a mental conversation with my ANS: Fogettaboutit!  I've got places to go and people to see.  Consciously relax your lateral muscles and release the pinched nerve.  The residual pain goes away in about 2-3 seconds, and this stops it triggering the ANS and the somatic pain cycle.  You will have a pain memory for about 20-minutes.  Do not confuse the pain memory with the pain itself.   If you concentrate on your interdiction, in the way I have described, it will stop triggering the ANS and you will break the somatic pain cycle.

Pain is only a signaling device, to tell your cognitive brain that something is wrong down in the body.  Your nervous system will really listen to you, if it sees you're on the same wave length.  You’ve just gotta gain its trust.

Even shouting and swearing at the severe pain in my shoulder that I’m currently suffering doesn’t work for me, matey. All I get in return is a little voice saying “it’s your own friggin’ fault, you silly old git. Eighty two-year-olds shouldn’t still be using a chainsaw and sawing trees down!”

I think you should be using a chainsaw. The benefits of the activity outweigh the discomfort of pushing your body a little. I'm a firm believer in "keep moving" and "use it or you'll lose it".

Fred Moletrousers wrote:Even shouting and swearing at the severe pain in my shoulder that I’m currently suffering doesn’t work for me, matey. All I get in return is a little voice saying “it’s your own friggin’ fault, you silly old git. Eighty two-year-olds shouldn’t still be using a chainsaw and sawing trees down!”

I didn't recommend it for any old 'pain' in the shoulder, or, for that matter, any arthritic condition. The autonomic nervous system (ANS) is uniquely keyed to perform body functions that need action without thought: the beating of the heart, the breathing of the lungs...even sex, though you might be of the belief that, at your age, it demands no attention at all. Did you know you can slow your heartbeat, and lower your blood pressure, if you concentrate? The cognitive mind can override it all.

People don't think of the spine as doing anything, except being there to hold up all of the above. But it carries essential, messenger nerves to make the rest of the body function...and the ANS is mindful of that. It may be silent, but the ANS is there to do a single function should the spine send out a distress call...that is, to contract the lateral muscles (Lats), and give the spine support.

It's a simple function, and in many ways, dysfunctional. When it freezes on a pinched nerve, it shuts down all motion and the whole body permeates with pain. But realize: it is the protective response of the ANS, and not any underlying cause that is causing the pain. The pinch of a nerve, itself, gives off a minute shock, but the response of the ANS sets off a protracted chain reaction that is the somatic pain cycle. The Maker got it wrong and overreacted.

I'm just saying, it's your body and you can countermand the Maker this time. All you need do is concentrate, and interrupt the somatic side of the cycle. Or you can do it the old way, and take 2 - 3 weeks out of your life while you deal with extreme pain.

Maddog wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Even shouting and swearing at the severe pain in my shoulder that I’m currently suffering doesn’t work for me, matey. All I get in return is a little voice saying “it’s your own friggin’ fault, you silly old git. Eighty two-year-olds shouldn’t still be using a chainsaw and sawing trees down!”

I think you should be using a chainsaw. The benefits of the activity outweigh the discomfort of pushing your body a little. I'm a firm believer in "keep moving" and "use it or you'll lose it".

Oh, I certainly keep moving. This morning’s walk was more than four miles at my regular pace (recorded on my fitness app) of 2.77mph. My daily target is at least 40 minutes walking or 30 mins on the treadmill if the weather’s bad. I also do all my own housework and look after a two acre garden and paddock. Oh, and I have an artificial heart valve, the using or losing of which is uppermost in my everyday thoughts!

My one concession to old age has been to stop going up ladders to repair barn roofs...mainly, I have to confess, in response to my daughter’s threats of dire retribution if she catches me at it!!!

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Maybe your back speaks a different language and there's a communication barrier?

There's a bit of truth to that ^, Syl.  It takes perseverance before the ANS believes/understands you.  The ANS is used to making your heart beat, breathing, eyes blink, and bringing your arms forward to catch a fall.  All automatic things.  It’s not used to your cognitive mind having a direct conversation.

You have to communicate by giving it confidence that it works, and that is as much feeling as it is words.

there's a lot in what you say quill

i showed your post to beanie and she said she felt sure she had seen/read something of that nature that military uses to get through pain of injuries etc

i likened it to trying to sort out a problem on a laptop and nothing is working and the problems is getting worse no matter what i try and furthermore i'm getting irritated by my phone pinging at me. i'm so caught up in trying to fix the problem that i ignore the pinging on my phone. but when i finally get fed up and look at it i see a list of instructions on how to fix the problem on my laptop

getting to use the brain as a fixer/controller of pain rather than just a receptor must take a hell of a lot of practice and focus though

syl, here is a webinar talking about pain control through the mind

if you're laid up with no where to go you may as well have a gander

there are quite a few of these


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6liSf5d9v5k

gelico wrote:i likened it to trying to sort out a problem on a laptop and nothing is working and the problems is getting worse no matter what i try and furthermore i'm getting irritated by my phone pinging at me. i'm so caught up in trying to fix the problem that i ignore the pinging on my phone. but when i finally get fed up and look at it i see a list of instructions on how to fix the problem on my laptop

That's a great analogy. In fact, that's just how the body cures it, left on its own devices. Just when you stop paying attention to the pain, and turn your attention elsewhere, that's the very non-preoccupation that breaks the pain cycle.

I describe it as the 'body getting bored' by it, but you're right: it's when you throw up your arms and go to something else, that the autonomic nervous system relaxes and gives up its grip. That's the ANS realizing it's not needed anymore.

gelico wrote:


syl, here is a webinar talking about pain control through the mind

if you're laid up with no where to go you may as well have a gander

there are quite a few of these


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6liSf5d9v5k

Thanks Gels, I will have a look at that.
I am keeping on the go, it hurts more when I sit about than when I am moving around. x

Original Quill wrote:

gelico wrote:i likened it to trying to sort out a problem on a laptop and nothing is working and the problems is getting worse no matter what i try and furthermore i'm getting irritated by my phone pinging at me. i'm so caught up in trying to fix the problem that i ignore the pinging on my phone. but when i finally get fed up and look at it i see a list of instructions on how to fix the problem on my laptop

That's a great analogy.  In fact, that's just how the body cures it, left on its own devices.  Just when you stop paying attention to the pain, and turn your attention elsewhere, that's the very non-preoccupation that breaks the pain cycle.

I describe it as the 'body getting bored' by it, but you're right: it's when you throw up your arms and go to something else, that the autonomic nervous system relaxes and gives up its grip.  That's the ANS realizing it's not needed anymore.

but what about when you go to sleep and your brain isn't registering any pain

or if you take loads of painkillers so you just can't feel it

why isn't that enough for the ANS to think it's not needed any more?

why does the pain suddenly come back?

gelico wrote:why isn't that enough for the ANS to think it's not needed any more?

why does the pain suddenly come back?

I don't know why it pauses while asleep, and then comes back.  I think it has something to do with pain (muscle?) memory.  I'm in tune with my body, and with lots of the experiences I develop my own vocabulary for my own feelings (eg, “get bored with pain”), and never discuss them with an expert.  I think the answer is: While you’re sleeping you are not monitoring, and self-talking.  When you wake up, you have to re-engage with the ANS, but the body (pain memory) beats you to it.

It has to do with convincing the ANS the smothering grip on the spine is no longer needed (if it ever was).  When I get it, and do my sit-down-and-let's-talk routine, I feel an air of nonchalance washing over me.  What do I mean?  I mean, I tell my ANS it's no longer needed, and to let go.  And lo, it slowly does what I tell it.

Then you've got to fight off the pain memory...convince the ANS that it is only a residual recollection, not the real thing.  It's just, you're communicating with your own body.  When asleep, you are not doing that. Anyway, since I nip it in the bud in the morning before, I never have to deal with it returning after sleeping.

(I took opportunity to look at your clip.  Xlnt, by the way.)

Original Quill wrote:

gelico wrote:why isn't that enough for the ANS to think it's not needed any more?

why does the pain suddenly come back?

I don't know why it pauses while asleep, and then comes back.  I think it has something to do with pain (muscle?) memory.  I'm in tune with my body, and with lots of the experiences I develop my own vocabulary for my own feelings (eg, “get bored with pain”), and never discuss them with an expert.  I think the answer is: While you’re sleeping you are not monitoring, and self-talking.  When you wake up, you have to re-engage with the ANS, but the body (pain memory) beats you to it.


Then you've got to fight off the pain memory...convince the ANS that it is only a residual recollection, not the real thing.  It's just, you're communicating with your own body.  When asleep, you are not doing that.  Anyway, since I nip it in the bud in the morning before, I never have to deal with it returning after sleeping.

(I took opportunity to look at your clip.  Xlnt, by the way.)

that makes sense as well, it also goes to explain how amputees will feel an ache in a limb that no longer exists,

it's a curious thing, the mind

also what does Xint mean?

Xlnt means 'excellent'.

Syl wrote:

Vintage wrote:Syl, I sympathise fully. I get that now and again, worse than anytime this time last year, getting out of bed or chair was like being punched in my lower back everytime, the pain was intense.
Ended up walking sort of sideways to try and keep the weight off the offending side. I feel for you, its awful.

Thanks Vintage.
It can happen to anyone, suddenly.
A physotherapist told me once, always avoid bending and twisting at the same time, he said that movement was one of the likeliest actions to put ones back out.

Is it your disc or is it muscular? If muscular, i.e. when the muscle goes into painful spasm or it's pulled, you can literally tap the pain out of it. I know that sounds insane but it works. You tap the area with something like a bamboo stick or, if someone else can, the edge of their hands (known as tapotement). This breaks down the toxins that accumulate in a pulled muscle, increasing blood flow and healing. I've done it myself, or rather my husband has, when I' had a pulled back muscle.

Trigger points are another culprit. They cause referred pain.

Rest is probably what you need right now though and Quill has a good point...tell your body to relax.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Syl wrote:

Thanks Vintage.
It can happen to anyone, suddenly.
A physotherapist told me once, always avoid bending and twisting at the same time, he said that movement was one of the likeliest actions to put ones back out.

Is it  your disc or is it muscular?   If muscular, i.e. when the muscle goes into painful spasm or it's pulled, you can literally tap the pain out of it.   I know that sounds insane but it works.   You tap the area with something like a bamboo stick or, if someone else can, the edge of their hands (known as tapotement).  This breaks down the toxins that accumulate in a pulled muscle, increasing blood flow and healing.  I've done it myself, or rather my husband has, when I' had a pulled back muscle.

Trigger points are another culprit.  They cause referred pain.  

Rest is probably what you need right now though and Quill has a good point...tell your body to relax.

My OH is handier than a bamboo stick. He will do this when I go to bed in a bit.
I will let you know tomorrrow.

So sorry Syl. My neck and shoulders are the same as your back. Try getting a small electrical TENS machine, some tiger balm and a heating pad. Also some CBD oil or gummies may help you sleep at night too. Helps me. Hope you feel better soon x

Cass wrote:So sorry Syl. My neck and shoulders are the same as your back. Try getting a small electrical TENS machine, some tiger balm and a heating pad. Also some CBD oil or gummies may help you sleep at night too. Helps me. Hope you feel better soon x

Thanks Cass.
Years ago, I had really bad neck and shoulder pain. My useless GP couldn't decide whether it was a trapped nerve, frozen shoulder, arthritis, wear and tear...etc etc. X rays showed slight spondylitis....touch wood I have no problems there now, the back seems to be my weak spot.
I bought a Tens machine then, and it did help a bit. That's a good idea though, I may invest in another if this pain persists.

Horatio....OH did tapotement last night, it really did seem to help. I could actually turn over in bed without that shooting pain. Feel marginally better today.

I have a feeling, because I haven't yet mastered Quills technique, it'll be one of those pains, that with care, wlil gradually ease without physio.

Tommy Monk wrote:

Hope the back is on the mend.


It is said that one of the main causes of back trouble is bed related...

I did literally mean 'bed related' as being a problem with the bed... An old or worn/sunken mattress or one that is too soft will cause a bad sleeping position and will trigger back problems.


Maybe a new mattress is what is needed?


https://www.sleepfoundation.org/mattress-information/when-should-you-replace-your-mattress

I bought a new mattress last year.
It's on the firm side, which is perfect for me....I had one of those test things where you lie on a bed, move around, and it works out what mattress suits your body shape.

I would always go for one that was a bit firmer than what the tester thing recommended, because they will always soften up and sink a little bit once it starts 'wearing in'...

Have you tried alternating between hot and cold packs? Sorry if it’s been suggested already - haven’t read the entire thread.

I've pretty much conquered my plague of lower back pain, so I'll share some tips gleaned from all over:

* TENS machines, as Cass said, can really help. I'd say they speed the healing process by several full days.

* Walking (when you can) can help your back naturally relax, as walking puts a gentle, repetitive stretch on your lower back. Learned that from Quill, years ago.

* Iburprofen or naproxen sodium are the best painkillers for your back, in my experience, though cocaine provides excellent, if temporary, relief as well. Co-codamol, I meant to say. Co-codamol!

* Laying flat on the floor can help, if you're sure you can get back up again without undoing all your progress (been there, done it). You want to breath deep and even to help your back relax.

* Remember that if it's a muscle strain, it's pain without actual damage, so as bad as it might hurt, as long as you don't do anything crazy, there's no way you're going to do physical damage to your back.

Syl wrote:I bought a new mattress last year.
It's on the firm side, which is perfect for me....I had one of those test things where you lie on a bed, move around, and it works out what mattress suits your body shape.

beanie gets bad back problems

i had a look round at mattresses on line but the best one was from a company actually called ''rockhardmattress''.

it was surprisingly cheap and she said it's the best mattress she ever had.

how are you feeling today syl?

Thanks so much for all the suggestions....they are brilliant.

I honestly cannot believe this, but I tried  HT's suggestion of 'tapotemen' ....I had never heard of it before.

The first night it eased the pain so I could get comfy in bed.
OH has done this on my back twice since, and the pain has completely gone as from this morning.

I know from experience that when I do this to my back it takes at least two weeks to get right, on several ocassions I have had to have physio because it's been unbearable.
This time, within 3 days, the pain, in my back which always spreads around my abdomen....it's gone.

Thanks HT, and thanks everyone for kindness.x

Horatio could do a distant reiki healing on you Syl. Ask her.
She’s really good.

eddie wrote:Horatio could do a distant reiki healing on you Syl. Ask her.
She’s really good.

Pwish.